|
Post by Jessicker on Jan 18, 2010 0:39:16 GMT -5
A little help, please. So, I have never really understood this passage: Romans 9:22. What are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (and likewise "vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" in Romans 9:23)? In just reading it, it seems to say that God creates some people that are just destined to go to Hell so He can "shew his wrath, and to make his power known" (which, I assume He would do in order to save people, so they'll turn to Him, like he raised up Pharaoh so He could show His power to His people), but how can that be? Surely God doesn't make some people without free will so that they cannot turn to Him (unless these vessels don't really have souls, so they aren't punished for what they do...God even gave Pharaoh many, many chances to to what was right...he gave Pharaoh a CHOICE)? I do not believe the God of the Bible would create people without a free will and then send them to Hell. That's a cruel God and not one I would want to serve...so, in order to be consistent about God not being a cruel dictator who creates people specifically to burn in Hell for all of eternity for something they had no control over, what does this passage mean? I am just a little confused. I suppose I do not understand the analogy correctly, so please enlighten me.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Jan 18, 2010 17:06:12 GMT -5
I'm sure Jesse could explain this much better than me.
I think Paul was defending God's justice. He was saying that Israel was under condemnation for rejecting God and the Lord Jesus but now the gentiles can be accepted through God's mercy even though they were formerly sinners. Paul brought up the potter's vessel story from Jeremiah. The point of the story is that God is fair so he will change your destiny if you change your behavior. The thing made out of clay is your future and God can reshape it good or bad depending on your behavior. It DOESN'T mean that God shapes good or bad PEOPLE and so they act however God made them. That would be an attack on God's justice not a defense of it like Paul is making.
Rom9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. The bible says God's mercy is for those who fear him. God is not bound to show mercy and compassion toward those who stubbornly abuse his kindness.
Rom9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Just wanting to be accepted by God is natural. It doesn't make God accept us simply because we want him to. Otherwise people could live in sin and still be accepted. But God's acceptance of sinners is HIS choice. The condition of course is that they repent and serve him.
Rom9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. I don't know if I understand this verse yet. Was Pharaoh bad before God allowed him to have control over Egypt? Did God decide to raise him up to a position of authority for that reason? Or was God willing to show his power through Pharaoh in a good way if he was not bad or if he repented? Isn't God more glorified by obedience than by disobedience? Anyway, I'm not sure exactly how to take this verse.
Rom9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. God hardened Pharaoh after giving him chances.
Rom9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? That would be stupid to complain after rejecting God's reaching out to you.
Rom9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? God has as much right to judge people for rejecting him as a potter has a right to do what he wants with his work.
Rom9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Not only does God have the right to destroy those who reject him, he even patiently endures their hatred so that he can show mercy on those who repent. They are not fitted to destruction as if they had no choice about their outcome. If they repent God is able to refit them for honor.
Peter said that God is so patient "there shall come in the last days scoffers ... saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (2Pet3:3-4) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet3:8-9) "...the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2Pet3:15-16)
|
|
|
Post by tbxi on Jan 18, 2010 19:01:12 GMT -5
Hello, Jessicker.
In the first few lines of your response you seem to be getting it right. Romans 9:22-23 is indeed saying that God has created some people unto eternal death/destruction and some people unto eternal life. You are initially correct: God has "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction", both because he desires "to show his wrath and to make known his power", and also "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" (ESV).
Then you said, "Surely God doesn't make some people without free will so that they cannot turn to Him", and that is somewhat of a misstatement. (I would also insist that all humans do have souls, both those who are saved and ultimately damned.) The bible does not teach that God has made some people without free will, and then some with free will. The bible teaches that nobody has free will, i.e. nobody is free from God's control, decree, or power. Sinners, i.e. unsaved people are slaves to their sin and are unable to free themselves from their shackles, and nobody is able to believe the gospel without said faith having been graciously granted to them - saving faith is a gift from God (eph. 2:8-10, phil. 1:29, ESV).
God did give Pharaoh "chances" to do what was right, in a sense. God sent Moses many times and warned him to let Israel go. But God told Moses from the start that he would harden Pharaoh's heart (ex. 4:21, ESV) so that he would not let the people go. And indeed - although Pharaoh let them go for a time, he ultimately went after them again, to his death. As Romans 9 says, "17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (ESV) The text speaks for itself well enough. Verse 18 causes us to remember that the context is talking about God's control over his creatures, and God's free choice to have mercy on some and harden others. It is God who is free, not us.
Similar to you, I once believed that if God created people and decreed that they would be damned, and decreed that others would be saved, taking the "free will" of both out of the equation, then he would not be worthy of worship. That was when I was an unbeliever. That doesn't mean that you necessarily are unsaved, but it is a grave sin to tell God that he is not allowed to be free to have mercy on some and not have mercy on, but harden others.
I lovingly advise you to repent of this sin, see God for who he clearly is (as you evidently can understand from the passage, judging by the way you asked the question and then denied your initial interpretation because of your feelings/thoughts of what God should be like), and simply let God be God. He does all that he pleases (ps. 135:6, isaiah 46:10), and it is his right *alone* to do this, because he is God. The creature has no right to point its finger at him accusingly for anything. We don't even have a category for right or wrong unless it is given by him.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Jan 18, 2010 22:02:10 GMT -5
it is a grave sin to tell God that he is not allowed to be free to have mercy on some and not have mercy on, but harden others. I lovingly advise you to repent of this sin you asked the question and then denied your initial interpretation because of your feelings/thoughts of what God should be like) Maybe this reply would be more suitable for the " Accusing the Brethren" forum. Wrong. If we don't have any category for right and wrong then saying that "God is right" would not mean anything to us. God is Good1. God makes choices. 2. God makes the right choices. 3. God doesn't just make up what right is. 4. There is good reason to obey God. 1. God makes choices.Benevolence is volitional. God is benevolent. Therefore God is volitional. In other words, Love is a choice. God is loving. So God makes choices. 2. God makes the right choices.Perfect benevolence fulfills moral obligation. God is perfectly benevolent. Therefore God fulfills moral obligation. In other words, Being loving fulfills the law. God is loving. So God fulfills the law. 3. God doesn't just make up what right is.The fundamental reason benevolence is obligatory is the intrinsic value of the benefit willed. God's volitions are distinct from the intrinsic value of benefit. Therefore God's volitions are not the fundamental reason benevolence is obligatory. In other words, The main reason we should will good is because good is good. God's will and the obvious fact that good is good are two different things. So God's will is not the main reason why we should will good. 4. There is a good reason to obey God.God legislates and exemplifies benevolence. Benevolence is obligatory. Therefore we are obligated to follow God's instruction. In other words, God teaches us to will good. Willing good is good. So it is good to obey what God teaches us.
|
|
|
Post by tbxi on Jan 20, 2010 11:39:06 GMT -5
Ben,
So God is good because he submits to a standard of goodness external to himself?
|
|
|
Post by logic on Jan 22, 2010 15:14:40 GMT -5
A little help, please. So, I have never really understood this passage: Romans 9:22. What are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Fitted to destruction: Reformed from a vessel of honor to be a vessel of dishonor. 2 Timmothy 2:20-21 God loves all His creation even those who hate him, that is why God endured in much long-suffering with them. 1Corinth 13:7, "charity (love) bears all things (is patient) vessels of mercy were they who kept their repentance. If God created some for the sole purpose of being damned, they would actually be doing God's will for their lives in doing that which is worthy of damnation. Therefore, as they have done God's will by sinning, they have not truly sinned in rebellion of God's plan for their lives to be worthy of His wrath. Conclusion is that it is impossible for God to create anyone as a vessel of wrath for that would be a contradiction in terms. Co-text of Rom 9:20-21: Jer 18:2-6 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear my words. :3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he worked a work on the wheels. :4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. :5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, :6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.Israel was warned to repent and they did not; that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there un-repentance; this is the clay being reformed. The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands (Israel rebelled). The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah (along with all the other prophets) and the clay (Israel) rebelled anyway. Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel; one of wrath.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Jan 22, 2010 23:43:14 GMT -5
Ben, So God is good because he submits to a standard of goodness external to himself? The standard is not external to himself. I was only showing that the standard is not a product of God's will. That doesn't mean that the knowledge of good originates completely outside of God altogether. God is more than his will. God has knowledge also. Since God is intelligent, he understands what good is. Do you see how the knowledge of good originates in God's mind without being something he simply made up? It originates in God's understanding, knowledge, wisdom, observation, etc. not in his will. God governs his will, not blindly, but according to his great wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. The example he sets for us is one that we can follow. That's how we can learn "his ways". If God defined right and wrong arbitrarily (what he wills) rather than intelligently (what he knows) then it would be disastrous for us to follow his example. But because God is loving (righteous, upright, holy, just, good) we can follow his perfect example. We can be perfect as he is perfect, holy as he is holy, pure as he is pure, and righteous as he is righteous. "Christ pleased not himself" (Rom 15:3) "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1Jn 2:6) Now if God perfectly fulfills the law of love, what excuse does that leave the sinner? None. Christ "condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3) It is not a sin to trust in God's justice and reason through the scriptures accordingly. To remember "the weighty matters of the law" such as justice and to question false bible interpretations that contradict God's justice is a good thing. Righteous Abraham even questioned the Lord's judgment. (Gen 18) Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ... That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? As James said, "the wisdom that is from above is ... easy to be intreated ... without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. Be like Abraham and say "That be far from God to do after this manner" when men accuse him of causing sin and seeking the damnation of many. Shall not the judge of the earth do right?
|
|
|
Post by Jessicker on Jan 23, 2010 0:39:59 GMT -5
Ooooh. Okay. I get it. Thanks! It's always great to be able to see what a passage means by being referred to other passages. That background info and further context really helps a lot. I get it now and that makes it consistent with everything else I've read. Praise the Lord! Thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 26, 2010 23:55:35 GMT -5
Biblical Predestination
"What about predestination?” The answer is simple. Many have turned an issue of simplicity into an issue of complexity. The reason that many fall into serious error on this topic is because they fail to consider the circumstances and culture which Paul was writing in. Historical context is a necessary consideration in proper hermeneutics. Men read the writings of Paul through the eyes of the Reformers rather than through the eyes of the Early Church.
The Jews were considered the “chosen people”. Many of the Jews were outraged at the thought that God would seek after the Gentiles (Lk. 4:25-29), not remembering that they as a nation were intended to be a light and a blessing to all nations (Gen. 22:18; 26:4; Isa. 42:6; 49:6; Acts 13:47). Predestination is God’s predetermined plan for nations. God predetermined to have a holy people from both the Jews and the Gentiles. The question during the time of the Early Church was not “has God predestined individuals?” but “has God also to the Gentiles given repentance unto life”? (Acts 11:18) It was not that God predestined individuals to be saved or damned but that God also offers salvation to the Gentiles so that they too are chosen by God. God’s heart for the entire world and all nations is seen in the atonement (Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 2:2) and in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19; Mk. 16:15).
Paul’s specific ministry was to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17-18; Gal. 2:7; Eph. 3:8). That is why we see Paul confirming to the Church of Ephesus that “He has chosen us” (Eph. 1:4) because that Church was made up of Jews and Greeks (Acts 19:17). The Jews were not only chosen by God, but also the Gentiles were. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;... Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister,..., that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." (Eph 3:1-9) In Eph. 2:11-19, Paul told the Gentile believers that God brought them into the commonwealth of Israel, whereas before they were alienated and were far off, now they are brought in by the blood of Christ. Christ removed the wall of separation which was the ordinances of the Law of Moses, such as the one which required circumcision, so that God can make twain one new man of both Jew and Gentile. Now the Gentiles are fellow citizens with the saints and the household of God. The election of Jews and Gentiles is a major theme all throughout Ephesians.
Paul taught that salvation is “not to that only which is of the law” which are the Jews, “but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham” which are the Gentile believers, so that Abraham “is the father of us all” both Jew and Gentile (Rom. 4:16). Since Paul’s ministry was to the Gentiles we see Paul’s extensive defense of the election of the Gentiles all throughout Romans, especially in Romans 9, 10, and 11. God was not calling the Jews only. “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (Rom. 9:24). Salvation was now made available to the Gentiles. “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith” (Rom. 9:30). In Romans, Paul thoroughly justifies God in his election of the Gentiles and says that the Jews have no reason to complain to God. Both Jews and Gentiles have been chosen to God for salvation. God’s election of the Gentiles was always a part of God’s plan. “As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved.” (Hosea 2:23; Rom. 9:25; 1 Pet. 2:10) God’s heart had always been for all people; God has always planned to bless all nations (Gen. 22:18).
In Ephesians Paul continually uses the words “us” and “we” in relation to being chosen by God. He never uses the words “I” or “you”. That is because election is national, not individual. The Jews and Gentiles were chosen people, but God did not decide which Jews or which Gentiles would choose to be saved and to become part of His elect or precious people. Jed Smock said, “Election includes all Jews and Gentiles potentially, but no man unconditionally.” Jed Smock, (Debate on Calvinism, Unconditional Election, Jed Smock vs. Peter Allison, produced by Destiny Ministries). Many of the Jews thought that they were unconditionally elected to salvation because they were children of Abraham (Matt. 3:9). Neither salvation nor damnation is hereditary but requires personal choice. The cutting off of Israel and the grafting in of the Gentiles was not unconditional but conditional. The Gentiles were grafted in because they believed but Israel was cut off because they believed not (Rom. 11:20-23). God “hath… mercy on whom he will” (Rom. 9:18). God has chosen to have mercy on those who choose to repent and believe, while God has chosen to condemn those who sin and refuse to repent. “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt. 22:14). That is because God only chooses to save those who obey the call. Men make themselves vessels of honor by choosing to purge themselves of their sins (2 Tim. 2:21) or if they persist in their sin, God, though He does it through “longsuffering”, makes them into vessels of wrath because they have fitted themselves for destruction (Jer. 18:4; Rom. 9:21-22). God does this through “longsuffering” because He wanted them to repent (2 Pet. 3:9).
Israel had marred itself and fitted itself for destruction, by persisting in sin and ultimately rejecting the Messiah. Therefore God made them a vessel to receive His wrath. Israel cannot object to this since the potter has power over the clay. God can use His own wise judgment and just discretion in appointing some to eternal life (believers) and others to damnation (unbelievers). God, the potter, was not at fault for the marred clay, since God originally intended to make Israel a different type of vessel. “And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, O House of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? Saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel” (Jer. 18:4-5). God had an original plan but had to change His plans when the clay was marred. Making Israel a vessel of wrath was not God’s plan from the beginning. God made Israel a vessel for wrath but it was only because of their sinful choices. John Wesley said, “The vessels of wrath - Those who had moved his wrath by still rejecting his mercy. Fitted for destruction - By their own willful and final impenitence.” John Wesley (Commentary on Romans 9:22) Pelagius said, “By filling up the quota of their sins they became vessels worthy of wrath, and by their own doing they became vessels prepared for destruction.” Pelagius (Pelagius' Commentary on St Paul's Epistle to the Romans, published by Oxford University Press, 1998p. 119)
Regarding the words predestination and election, Jed Smock said, “Biblically these terms are primarily associated with the call of the Jews and Gentiles to join together, ‘to make in himself of twain one new man (the Church), so making peace,’ between these two estranged people. (Eph 2:15) These terms should not be associated with some fictitious Calvinistic notion, that God unconditionally elected before Creation certain individuals to eternal salvation and reprobated the rest of humanity to eternal destruction.” Jed Smock (The Mystery of Christ Revealed, Published by The Campus Ministry USA)
When God repented of creating mankind when He saw how they were continually choosing to sin, this implies that had God known they were going to sin He would not have created them (Gen. 6:5-6). This also explains why God did not create hell with mankind in mind (Matt. 25:41). Contrary to what John Calvin taught, that many men were “made and formed” John Calvin, (Commentaries on the epistle of Paul the apostle to the Romans, Edited by John Owen, 1849 Edition, p. 368) for damnation, mankind was created for the pleasure of God (Rev. 4:11) and God takes no pleasure in sin or in the damnation of the wicked (Gen. 6:5-6; Eze. 33:11). Therefore mankind was created to live holy not sinful, to have a relationship with God, not to be damned. God did not create mankind for sin nor did God create us for hell.
God’s plan from the beginning was for Jews and Gentiles to live holy. God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love…” (Eph. 1:4) Holiness is the moral quality of a person’s state of will and love is a personal choice. Therefore our election is in no way contrary to, or independent of our will, but our will must be involved. God did not choose for us to be holy or loving despite our choice, since this is an impossible contradiction, but He chose for us to be holy and loving by our choice.
The call to convert from death to life, from sin to holiness, from damnation to salvation, is a call which is made to all. Biblical predestination, when it is properly understood, is not at all contrary to the free will or natural ability of man, nor is it contrary to the biblical truth that salvation requires man’s free choice. Election does not coerce anyone to obey the Gospel; neither does election hinder anyone from obeying the Gospel. The Gospel is free to be obeyed by both Jews and Gentiles. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Eph. 6:9; Col. 3:25; 1 Pet. 1:17). God did not arbitrarily choose from all of eternity a few for Heaven and most for hell. God’s decree regarding man’s salvation is “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16). He has left it up to our own choice.
Some will ask, “But didn’t Jesus say you have not chosen me but I have chosen you”? Yes Jesus said that in Jn. 15:16 but he was talking about apostleship, not salvation. Jesus chose, out of those who were already his disciples, who would be his apostles. They choose to be his disciples but Jesus chose them to be his apostles. It is a very poor interpretation to apply this verse to salvation as it would ignore the basic hermeneutic principle of context.
Someone might ask “Why is one person saved while another person is not?” Some people have blamed God. Martin Luther said, “As to why some are touched by the law and others not, so that some receive and others scorn the offer of grace...[this is the] hidden will of God, Who, according to His own counsel, ordains such persons as He wills to receive and partake of the mercy preached and offered." Martin Luther (Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther, translated by J. I. Packer & Johnston, published by Revell, 1957 Edition, p. 169). In other words, though they are invited, it is ultimately not their choice but God’s. The reason some are saved and some are not, according to Luther, is not because some receive the Gospel and others reject it. The reason is because God is not sincere in His offer and invitation, but has secretly willed some men to embrace the Gospel and some men to reject it. This would make God responsible, not only for all the repentance and faith in the world, but also responsible for all the impenitence and unbelief in the world! Why would God even invite them if their acceptance of the invitation is not even their choice?
John Wesley charged Calvinism’s doctrine of predestination with “making vain all preaching, and tending to destroy holiness, the comfort of religion and zeal for good works, yea, the whole Christian revelation by involving it in fatal contradictions… a doctrine full of blasphemy… it represents our blessed Lord as a hypocrite, a deceiver of the people, a man void of common sincerity, as mocking his helpless creatures by offering what he never intends to give, by staying one thing and meaning another.” John Wesley (Sermon Entitled Free Grace)
God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31) and He rightly blames them if they do not repent (Matt. 11:20; 23:37; Mk. 6:6; Lk. 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Jn. 5:40; Rev. 2:21).
The Bible says that God “sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come” (Matt. 22:3). An invitation requires a response of the will. Those who are not saved are not saved because they “would not come”, not because they were not called or because God didn’t want them to come. God was sincere in His invitation. He wanted them to come and they were capable of doing so, otherwise they would not have been invited, but they were free not to come if they so choose. God has done His part in their salvation, but they have not done their part. As Jesus said, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (Jn. 5:40). They did not receive life because they did not “choose” or “determine” (Strong’s Definitions, e-sword), because they did not “resolve” or “purpose” (Thayer’s Definitions, e-sword) Man is a free moral being and therefore God cannot save anyone against their will. “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!”(Lk. 13:34).
Salvation is a gift that God offers to all to accept and receive (Jn. 1:11-12; Lk. 14:16-24; Rom 5:18). If men who hear the Gospel do not accept God’s offer of salvation, it is not because they couldn’t but because they wouldn’t (Matt. 11:20-21; 23:37, Mk. 6:6; 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Lk. 14:16-24; Jn. 5:40; Acts 7:51; 17:27; Rev. 2:21). Though God offers salvation to all men, many men choose to reject God’s gracious offer (Isa. 65:2; Lk. 7:30; 14:16-24; Jn. 1:10-11; Rom. 10:21; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17). To their own damnation many men choose to resist His grace (Gen. 6:3; Matt. 23:37; Lk. 7:30, 13:34; Acts 7:51).
God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31), therefore God wants all men everywhere to be saved. He wouldn’t call them to repentance if He didn’t want them to repent. The reason some are saved by the Gospel and some are not, is not because of predestination but because of free will. It is not that God unconditionally elected the one to be saved and unconditionally reprobated the other to be damned. It is not that God regenerated one so that they will have the ability to repent while he did not regenerate the other to have the ability to do so. It is that God has created men free and some choose to repent and believe while others do not. Augustine admitted that, “They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart)
|
|
|
Post by Jessicker on Mar 30, 2010 21:36:12 GMT -5
Another question, if you don't mind:
What does "poor in spirit" mean? Matthew 5:3
Thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by logic on Mar 30, 2010 22:14:20 GMT -5
Another question, if you don't mind: What does "poor in spirit"mean? Matthew 5:3 Thanks again! Knowing that you are totally bankrupt alone. Unable to do anything of eternal value apart from Christ. Powerless to make up for your past sins....etc...
|
|
|
Post by Jessicker on Apr 4, 2010 12:23:30 GMT -5
Part of my difficulty in understanding *might* be because I also don't really get the distinction between spirit and soul. Is there some scripture you can give me to help me understand this distinction? "Spirit" comes from πνεῦμα, which, when applied to humans apparently means "the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc." and "soul" comes from ψυχή, which is "spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only...)". I don't see the difference. A couple of people have tried to explain it to me by drawing three circles inside one another, where the outer circle is the body, then the next one is the soul, and the inner-most circle is the spirit and then they said that the spirit is the inner-most part of our being that is in touch with God and something about how when we receive the Lord, he comes into our spirit and then, like an oil, he "permeates" into our soul...that didn't really help me understand the difference between them. I didn't get it. Thanks again for your help.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Apr 5, 2010 19:30:43 GMT -5
I've wondered about the difference between soul and spirit also.
Paul said a soulish (psyche-ish) man thinks the Holy Spirit is foolish (1Cor 2:14).
When I thought about the word 'psyche' being used that way it made me think of the word psychedelic. That helped me to understand how "soulish" could mean unspiritual in that sense. I also thought it was interesting that Soul and Psychedelic are two musical styles. They both seem very emotionally or psychologically intense to me.
Spirit, on the other hand, seems like it could have more than one meaning.
Peter said Jesus preached to spirits (pneuma) who were in prison (in the heart of the earth?) from the time of the flood (1Pet 3:19).
James also said the body without the spirit is dead.
"poor in spirit" probably doesn't mean dead or almost dead. It must not mean lacking a spirit altogether because then everyone who died would be blessed automatically regardless of the judgment.
My guess is that 'spirit' can also mean someone's attitude or the intention of their heart.
Through Isaiah God said, "to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." (Interestingly, the next paragraph in chapter 66 talks about people who are mourning who will be comforted, and people who are hated and cast out for the sake of the Lord's name being made to rejoice.)
I agree with what Logic said about knowing our own dependence on Jesus. That is humility. Having an honest view of ourselves. I think humility makes us aware of how much we need Jesus. I think 'poor in spirit' is a different way of saying 'humble'. I don't think it means lacking in spirit. It might just mean having a spirit of poverty or humility.
EDIT: I also think poor in spirit could mean those who are oppressed and suffering.
|
|
|
Post by Jessicker on Apr 24, 2010 18:38:32 GMT -5
Okay. I think I get it now. I read some more and looked at more instances of the words "spirit" and "soul". I am pretty convinced that your soul is your mind, the way you think, etc (along the lines of 'psyche") and your "spirit" is your heart.
I always just assumed that "poor in spirit" meant humble, but I didn't actually see any evidence for that assumption in the passage, so I wanted to make sure I understood what it really meant because who knows where I got this idea of it being humility from.
I felt the pressing need to go back and look back over Matthew 5 and when I re-read it, I think what the Lord was trying to show me is that this part about the "poor in spirit" is meant to point out that the kingdom of Heaven is not just for the spiritual giants, priests, great prophets, etc. Much like the kingdom of Heaven is not just for those whose lives have been going perfectly or who are strong; it's also for those that are mourning or meek. So long as you are merciful, pure in heart, hunger and thirst after righteousness, etc, the kingdom of Heaven is attainable, even if in this life, you are not a highly-exalted, great prophet or even if you are in mourning or meek. Everyone is eligible for Heaven through the grace of God! The chapter then goes on to warn against just being complacent in this, though. Just because you are not a great prophet or you're in mourning, or you're meek doesn't mean that you can hide your light under a bushel or lose your flavor.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on May 14, 2010 18:25:19 GMT -5
Okay. I think I get it now. I read some more and looked at more instances of the words "spirit" and "soul". I am pretty convinced that your soul is your mind, the way you think, etc (along the lines of 'psyche") and your "spirit" is your heart. I always just assumed that "poor in spirit" meant humble, but I didn't actually see any evidence for that assumption in the passage, so I wanted to make sure I understood what it really meant because who knows where I got this idea of it being humility from. I felt the pressing need to go back and look back over Matthew 5 and when I re-read it, I think what the Lord was trying to show me is that this part about the "poor in spirit" is meant to point out that the kingdom of Heaven is not just for the spiritual giants, priests, great prophets, etc. Much like the kingdom of Heaven is not just for those whose lives have been going perfectly or who are strong; it's also for those that are mourning or meek. So long as you are merciful, pure in heart, hunger and thirst after righteousness, etc, the kingdom of Heaven is attainable, even if in this life, you are not a highly-exalted, great prophet or even if you are in mourning or meek. Everyone is eligible for Heaven through the grace of God! The chapter then goes on to warn against just being complacent in this, though. Just because you are not a great prophet or you're in mourning, or you're meek doesn't mean that you can hide your light under a bushel or lose your flavor. That's great! God is so reasonable in his requirements.
|
|