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Post by benjoseph on Feb 8, 2010 17:17:19 GMT -5
The apostle Paul seems to have believed that God was obligated to fulfill some kind of moral law.
In Romans 3 Paul writes that God gave us his son in order to declare his righteousness for forgiving sins that deserved to be punished. "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Rom 3:26)
It seems that Paul believed our forgiving God needed to DO something in order to be justified in forgiving us as he is so apt to do.
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Post by logic on Feb 8, 2010 19:20:48 GMT -5
The apostle Paul seems to have believed that God was obligated to fulfill some kind of moral law. In Romans 3 Paul writes that God gave us his son in order to declare his righteousness for forgiving sins that deserved to be punished. " To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Rom 3:26) It seems that Paul believed our forgiving God needed to DO something in order to be justified in forgiving us as he is so apt to do. That's what I get out from this verse also. God must be justified in justifying us. Justifying us is justifiable because of Jesus blood satisfies the justice of God on all points.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2010 20:29:23 GMT -5
Yes Paul is clearly saying that the atonement was needed for God to be justified in forgiving us, implying that God would not be justified in forgiving us without an atonement.
If God was going to pardon (justify) mankind, He needed to be just (to His law, Himself, and His universe), so that He is both just and the justifier.
Just to His Law: If God merely forgave us by setting aside our penalty, without an atonement, God would be publicly dishonoring His law. When a law is violated, it is publicly vindicated through the execution of penalty, or in liue of penalty, through the atonement. The atonement declares the value of the law just as the executed penalty would have, and therefore God can pardon mankind by withholding our penalty, and still be just towards His law. But if God merely forgave us without an atonement, what would He be telling His universe except that the precept is not valuable enough to uphold, or that the sanctions were wrong or too severe to execute.
Just to Himself: If God merely forgave us by setting aside our penalty, without an atonement, His character could be questioned by His entire universe. Is God a liar? He said the soul that sinned would die. Is God really holy? He doesn't even uphold His holy law. Does God care about His universe? He let's sinners go unpunished. These would be the impressions and questions His universe would have about His character, if He pardoned us without an atonement.
To His universe: the moral law is good for everyone, and the law is upheld through the execution of penalty. If God's universe get's the impression that you can break the law and get away with it, they would be encouraged to transgression. The execution of penalties is therefore necessary, to prevent and discourage transgression, through a public display of God's regard for His law. If God is going to set aside the execution of our penalty in forgiveness, He must prevent and discourage transgression through a public display of His regard for His law through another means. That means it the atonement. Now that the atonement has been made for our sin, God can be just to the universe while at the same time pardoning us.
The atonement was necessary to publicly declare to God's universe His righteous means of forgiving sinners, so that He can be just to His law, Himself, and His universe, while at the same time justifying or pardoning sinners by withholding or setting aside our penalty in forgiveness.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2010 20:46:26 GMT -5
It is also important to distinguish between public justice and retributive justice. Retributive justice is treating every moral being according to their merits and demerits. Public justice is promoting the well-being of all through issuing and maintaining precepts.
The atonement certainly did not satisfy retributive justice, because the sinner is guilty and is allowed to live, while Christ was innocent and was put to death. But the atonement did satisfy public justice because it maintains the moral law of God throughout His universe, by expressing His regard for His law, just as the execution of the penalty upon sinners would have.
The atonement justifies God in setting aside or remitting the execution of the penalty upon sinners, because the purpose of executing penalties (public justice) has been satisfied by the substituted means of the atonement.
God can be just (He satisfies public justice) while also being the justifier of sinners (remitting their penalty in forgiveness).
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Post by logic on Feb 8, 2010 20:46:18 GMT -5
To His universe: the moral law is good for everyone, and the law is upheld through the execution of penalty. If God's universe get's the impression that you can break the law and get away with it, they would be encouraged to transgression. The execution of penalties is therefore necessary, to prevent and discourage transgression, through a public display of God's regard for His law. If God is going to set aside the execution of our penalty in forgiveness, He must prevent and discourage transgression through a public display of His regard for His law through another means. That means it the atonement. Now that the atonement has been made for our sin, God can be just to the universe while at the same time pardoning us. The atonement was necessary to publicly declare to God's universe His righteous means of forgiving sinners, so that He can be just to His law, Himself, and His universe, while at the same time justifying or pardoning sinners by withholding or setting aside our penalty in forgiveness. Jesse: Are you personifying God's universe? Or are you just saying that all mankind as the "universe"?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 8, 2010 20:51:16 GMT -5
God's universe of moral beings consists of both men and angels. Both men and angels are capable of sin and therefore both men and angels are under God's moral government, they are both subject to moral obligation which they have the free will ability to violate. Therefore God must impress both the minds of men and the minds of angels with His regard for His law, if He is going to uphold the authority and influence of His law over them.
Consider this:
God is called the “Lord of hosts”, which means He rules over many moral beings (Amos 4:13). The moral government of God is not limited to mankind. “I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their hosts have I commanded” (Isa. 45:12). This means that they too are under the moral government of God. The hosts of heaven cannot even be numbered (Jer. 33:22; Heb. 12:22) which means the moral government of God is massive.
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Post by benjoseph on Feb 8, 2010 21:36:40 GMT -5
It is interesting how the nature of our atonement in the Lord Jesus is connected to the purpose/origin of the law.
If moral law came from God's arbitrary will then the atonement would not be necessary but something God arbitrarily wanted to do. If God makes up what right and wrong are (for no other reason than his wants) then God must have dreamed up letting his son be murdered for no reason also.
If "justice" is whatever-God-wills then God would not have to do anything "that he might be just". So justice is not founded in God's will.
This means that we can relate to God much more when it comes to having righteous intentions. We could never relate to a being who arbitrarily decided what was right and wrong. At least, we would never want to relate to one like that. Being able to relate to God's voluntary righteousness enables us to greatly appreciate his perfect heart in all that he does.
Understanding that God holds himself accountable to do what is right must be the among the highest sources of moral influence available to us.
I particularly desire to know God's humility.
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Post by benjoseph on Feb 8, 2010 21:44:06 GMT -5
...the moral government of God is massive. Awesome.
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