|
Post by benjoseph on Feb 9, 2010 11:34:18 GMT -5
Paul Washer seems to think it would be ridiculous to say the physical sufferings and death of Jesus allow God to be just in forgiving repentant sinners.
Another article someone's been posting on Sermon Index claims that it is because of the Lord's trinitarian "infinite"ness that he is a proper sacrifice for the infinite guilt of sin.
What exactly is it about Jesus that makes him such a worthy sacrifice? Is it because of his nature? his identity? his relationship to us and/or to God? his character only?
Of course his character mattered. I also guessed that it is because he is our creator. I think that would fall under "his relationship to us".
I don't think I really understand this though.
What exactly does God intend for us to be impressed by? Are we to be impressed at how angry God was (Washer's apparent view), or by how "infinite" our Lord was, or is it something more simple?
Does any of the suffering of the atonement belong to the Father?
Did Jesus satisfy public justice simply because he is God's son?
|
|
|
Post by logic on Feb 9, 2010 16:43:20 GMT -5
Paul Washer seems to think it would be ridiculous to say the physical sufferings and death of Jesus allow God to be just in forgiving repentant sinners. Another article someone's been posting on Sermon Index claims that it is because of the Lord's trinitarian "infinite"ness that he is a proper sacrifice for the infinite guilt of sin. What exactly is it about Jesus that makes him such a worthy sacrifice? Is it because of his nature? his identity? his relationship to us and/or to God? his character only? Of course his character mattered. I also guessed that it is because he is our creator. I think that would fall under "his relationship to us". I don't think I really understand this though. What exactly does God intend for us to be impressed by? Are we to be impressed at how angry God was (Washer's apparent view), or by how "infinite" our Lord was, or is it something more simple? Does any of the suffering of the atonement belong to the Father? Did Jesus satisfy public justice simply because he is God's son? Here is how I understand it. God is eternal & uncreated. Mankins is created, but eternal in that we will live forever after being created (just matters where we will spend our imortality; heaven or hell) God is like a line - infinite in both directions. Mankind is like a ray - infinit in one direction. A sinless, created man could only save one other man from there sin (skin for skin). The only one able to atone for the damage that is done to God's Name must be equally great as He is, not only in worth but in all aspects to God whom we offended (not just deemed as valuable as mankind is). Therefore, it must be God Himself in the likeness of "sinful flesh" who must make atonement (Roman 8:3); for Jesus is the only one who has satisfied the Father, even until the cross, therefore, only He can satisfy Him on the cross. Hebrews explains it better than I can: Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; :2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually.Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.:13 For he of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, of which no man has ever served at the altar.:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.:15 And it is yet far more evident: that after the similitude of Melchizedek there arises another priest,16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.:17 For he testifies, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.:18 For there is verily an annulment of the previous commandment because of the weakness and uselessness thereof.Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest (Because He is from the tribe of Judah, not of Levi) , seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law::19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by which we draw near unto God.:20 And since it was not without an oath he was made priest::21 (For those priests were made without an oath (they were born into the priesthood) ; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord swore and will not change, you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek:):22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not allowed to continue by reason of death::24 But this man, because he continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.:25 Therefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.:26 For such a high priest was befitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.:28 For the law makes men high priests who have weakness (the "weakness" is that he sinned and that he will die) ; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who is consecrated forevermore.There also seems to be an issue with our conscience. Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus prepared, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people::8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing::9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh::14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?As you see ( even specifically in verse 14), being eternal does have something to do wi this.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 10, 2010 9:54:26 GMT -5
My understanding is that the atonement is not the penalty of the law, but a substitute for the penalty of the law, which fulfills the purpose of our penalty so that the execution of our penalty can be remitted in forgiveness.
The atonement is not equivalent to the penalty of the law in nature or in duration, since the penalty of the law is eternal hell. But the atonement is far more valuable than if the penalty of the law was executed upon sinners, because of the sinless character of Christ and because of the divine dignity and person of Christ.
The severity of the penalty of the law declares the value of the law. The law of God is so valuable, because it protects the well-being of everyone, that the only adequate punishment is eternal hell. If God is going to set aside our penalty in forgiveness, He must find a substitute for the penalty of the law, which will declare the value of the law, or else He would be unjust towards His law. The atonement of Christ is of such great value, because of Christ's sinless character and divine dignity, that it can adequately substitute the penalty of the law. Because of the atonement, God can set aside the penalty of the law without dishonoring the law itself, because the value of the law is revealed through the atonement of Christ in an even greater way than the execution of the penalty upon sinners would have.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Feb 10, 2010 12:49:27 GMT -5
It seems like in Hebrews it's focusing on Jesus being eternal into the future in order to make intercession for us. Like Heb 8:24-25. I couldn't really tell if it was explaining his worth as our atoning sacrifice.
What are the sources of Jesus' dignity that made him a worthy sacrifice for our sins?
|
|
|
Post by logic on Feb 10, 2010 13:39:40 GMT -5
It seems like in Hebrews it's focusing on Jesus being eternal into the future in order to make intercession for us. Like Heb 8:24-25. I couldn't really tell if it was explaining his worth as our atoning sacrifice. What are the sources of Jesus' dignity that made him a worthy sacrifice for our sins? Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.Heb 7:26 For such a high priest was befitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;There may be more... But, unless you are taking about His rank as Saon of God as His dignity. I'd have to look those up.
|
|
|
Post by benjoseph on Feb 10, 2010 15:55:01 GMT -5
It seems like in Hebrews it's focusing on Jesus being eternal into the future in order to make intercession for us. Like Heb 8:24-25. I couldn't really tell if it was explaining his worth as our atoning sacrifice. What are the sources of Jesus' dignity that made him a worthy sacrifice for our sins? Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.Heb 7:26 For such a high priest was befitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;There may be more... But, unless you are taking about His rank as Son of God as His dignity. I'd have to look those up. It seems like these two verses are about the value of the Lord's unending priesthood. I realize that can't be totally separated from his worthiness to atone for sin, but I'm not sure it's really the same exact thing. It seems that Jesus had to be both human and victorious over sin in order to fulfill the role of priest. Also because he lives forever. But I'm not sure that being a perfect man whom God will cause to live forever are the main things that made him a perfect atoning sacrifice. Though I think his being perfect was necessary. However, being perfect is always necessary. It may be his rank as our creator and the son of God. Also the deep personal relationship between Jesus and his Father seems like it must matter a lot. "God SO loved the world". Offering your own son as a sacrifice definitely gives the impression that you are not likely to be partial in your judgment of anyone. It also seems to tell us that punishment for sin is not an empty threat on the part of God. However much God values his own son, that's how serious he is about punishing sin. And he is also that serious about forgiving sin. Just some thoughts.
|
|