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Post by catchingaway on Feb 18, 2010 19:20:59 GMT -5
have a look at my Christian site at : goldieshouse.piczo.com listen to my 12 Christian songs at youtube.com/goldieshome Jesse, praise Jesus for you!!!!!! Rich from Pittsburgh, PA Romans 1:16
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 2, 2010 20:50:38 GMT -5
I am glad there is someone here interested in discussing this.
Yes, I believe the Bible is very plain on the fact there is a catching away (rapture) (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) and many other references.
I have gone back and forth on this issue in the past.
I have never really agreed with the traditional Schoefield, Darby, Dakes teaching of a pretribulation rapture. There are too many inconsistencies.
What the Bible does seem to say and this is what I have really struggled with is the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rapture His church.
Many scriptures and the overall tone of the New Testament seem to teach an imminent return.
I want to believe Jesus can return at any time. It seems this is the hope of the church (1 John 3:2-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:18).
However this seems to conflict with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 which says that day (gathering of the saints) will not happen until the man of sin is revealed.
This seems to rule out the imminent return as this must occur first.
I have never been able to buy into the idea that Matthew 24 is dealing with Israel and not the church. I think Matthew 24 is talking about the rapture. It seems to line up with many other scriptures.
Another problem with the traditonal pretribulation teaching is the rapture clearly happens at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).
They teach the 7 trumpets in the Book of Revelation are during the great tribulation which according to them happens after the rapture.
How can you have seven trumpets during the tribulation if the last trump is the rapture and this occurs after the rapture?
In other words:
traditional pre trib teaching
1)Last trump-rapture
2) Great tribulation
3)7 trumpets and the wrath of God
Inconsistent.
At this point I am leaning towards more of a post tribulation view.
I am still open and really want to know the truth on this subject. I am not commited to a particular belief system I must defend.
I believe most people (and I refuse to do this) do not get their view of eschatology from the Bible but from books they read from certain authors and then commit themselves to that view or belief system (Dakes, Schofield, Darby).
Look forward to responses to this as I want to know the truth on this issue.
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Post by Kureji on Mar 4, 2010 3:52:36 GMT -5
This poll seems a little one sided, how do you vote no?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 4, 2010 20:29:14 GMT -5
One thing is for sure there Kureji.
Whenever Jesus comes back (pre, mid or post) you are going to get left unless you get right.
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Post by Jessicker on Mar 4, 2010 23:10:38 GMT -5
I am having a bit of trouble understanding why it's important to understand this. Any help?
The way I see it, it doesn't matter as long as you're saved. What will happen will happen. All I need to focus on is my relationship with God and the rest will take care of itself. Am I wrong to think this way? Thanks.
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Post by benjoseph on Mar 5, 2010 9:28:33 GMT -5
I didn't see this poll. It didn't seem to show up in the "30 most recent" view.
I don't know what to think about these things. But I can't imagine why I wouldn't want to understand what God's plans might be. Seems like knowing what God's plans are would help us serve him better.
I suppose I could say does it really matter what happened in the book of Exodus? As long as we are saved what is the point of reading the book of Exodus?
I'd ask what is the point of NOT studying to understand God's ways, whether in the past or his plans for the future?
I'm glad that Micah is open-minded about learning this stuff. I don't have a particular view myself but I get the impression that God does want us to have the right view. Otherwise why write all of those things?
It's like if the president sent a letter to you, would you just say "well, I know I'm on good terms with him so there's not any need for me to open the letter and read it".
But some of us might learn by direct study and prayer and others might learn from having someone explain things to them. I don't know if we all need to have prophecy charts taped to our walls or anything like that.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 5, 2010 10:19:34 GMT -5
I would say it may not be necessary to understand the timing of the Lord's return as long as we are in right relationship with Him.
It does seem though from about every passage where the coming of the Lord is mentioned there is an exhortation to a holy lifestyle.
I am concerned when people do not ever mention the coming of the Lord how do they ever preach all these verses about living a holy lifestyle in context?
So I think in that sense it is important. It is a motivator for a holy lifestyle and to reach others as we must make the most of our time.
Also there is a tremendous amount of scripture devoted to the subject. If God gave us much scripture on this subject then it must be of some importance.
I have never been interested in these guys who sound more like professors than preachers with all their charts and timelines.
We have many exhortations in the gospel to be ready because you know not the hour when the Son of Man cometh.
I am also concerned because it seems many do not want to ever preach about the coming of the Lord because of so many different doctrinal camps for fear of others finding out what camp they are in. If they are in one camp they may be out with the others so no one preaches on it and there is no expectancy of the Lords return.
2 Peter 3:12-"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God"
So many scriptures could be mentioned but we are to look for and hasten His return.
It is the hope of the church (Titus 2:13, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).
I think there is balance either way. At this point most do not even think about the Lords coming or study it.
Others have become like professors with charts and timelines and I believe get into all kinds of ridiculous speculations and have committed themselves to a belief system.
Any more comments on this?
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Post by Kureji on Mar 6, 2010 20:08:23 GMT -5
you are going to get left unless you get right. ...I see what you did there.
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Post by Jessicker on Mar 7, 2010 19:26:39 GMT -5
Okay, I took another look at the matter. I now think it is important to understand it because with these prophecies about the second coming of the Lord, there is usually a warning that comes with it about preparation and not being deceived. How better to make sure you’re prepared than to know what to look for? There are many deceivers and things that lie in wait to ensnare believers that will keep us out of the kingdom of heaven. God wants to warn us about them. Also, it goes along with God’s promise that He will not keep His people in the dark. He lets us understand His will (how else will we know how to follow Him) and part of His will is this second coming, so He lets us know about it. How would we know what to prepare for if God had not given us this knowledge about the second coming? Sure, I could say that as long as I stay true and honest in my chasing after the Lord, I would be able to overcome all these things anyway (and that was my position before), but it is always good to have a warning beforehand. I can prepare for a natural disaster by making sure I have water, canned goods, first aid supplies, flashlights, batteries, etc. Theoretically, I should be prepared for any disaster when it comes, but I would be much better prepared if I knew what type of natural disaster it was going to be. In *addition* to stocking up on water, etc: - If I knew it was a hurricane, I could make sure I pick up all the items around my house that could become dangerous projectiles in a hurricane. - If I knew it was a fire, I could make sure I have hoses hooked up and have my supplies packed in my car for a quick get-away. - If I knew it was a blizzard, I could make sure I had plenty of warm blankets and clothes and firewood. The prophecies about the second coming tell us what the dangers are that we should be prepared for so we can be better prepared and how it’s all going to go down. If I am wrong in any of this, please let me know and thank you very much for the guidance to take a closer look at this matter. I still do not understand the importance of trying to figure out *when* it will all happen since the Bible is clear that no man knows the hour…I don’t think any amount of scrutinizing the prophecies will tell you when the Lord will return again because it says very plainly that no man knows.
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Post by benjoseph on Mar 7, 2010 23:59:53 GMT -5
The prophecies about the second coming tell us what the dangers are that we should be prepared for so we can be better prepared and how it’s all going to go down. I was encouraged by that. I've been thinking about these two verses recently in the context of the Lord's return: Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 13, 2010 14:51:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback.
I think there are two extremes as I believe I mentioned above.
Some people totally ignore the whole subject and others try to figure everything out and set times and dates.
It does say we will not know the day nor hour but we are to know the season (1 Thessalonians 5:1-10).
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Post by debonnaire on Mar 17, 2010 16:00:52 GMT -5
all teaching on eschatology should have Jesus' teaching on the matter as cornerstone. If it does not line up with mathew 24 , throw it away.
Matthew 24 says explicitely that the gathering of the saints with the Lord happens after the great tribulation. And that the days of this tribulation shall be shortened, ( that is why we won't be able to know the day even when we shall be in the midst of it and see all the signs , even the cosmic signs of the sun moon and stars ).
Christians will of course see the mark of the Beast , as this happens 3 years 1/2 (approximately) before Jesus returns
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 20, 2010 21:47:03 GMT -5
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Post by benjoseph on Apr 5, 2010 19:39:55 GMT -5
Does anyone have any thoughts about the 666 man having been someone during the first century AD? It seems like people call that Preterism or Partial Preterism. Any thoughts?
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Post by robertmodell on Apr 7, 2010 0:36:57 GMT -5
messengermicah I have also gone back and forth on the timing for resurrection, staying decidedly pre-millenial. As you have said it is at the last trump. There are verses saying it is immediately prior to the Day of the Lord. There are verses describing the man of sin and his persecution of the saints. I have settled on the idea that Christians are not protected from the wrath of Satan (Hitler's ovens, Stalin's rampage, Rome's crucifixions, etc) but we are protected from the wrath of God. That puts it late in the tribulation period somewhere, but I don't give credence to the 3.5 year boundaries any longer. I'm sure if we obey God we will come out on the other side with flying colors! Amen.
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