mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 28, 2010 21:28:29 GMT -5
How did the Devil turn evil if sin didn't exist?
This is a question that I have been having difficulty with. If God isn't the creator of Sin, how did this non existent sin come about in a perfect being that was created without sin?
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Post by benjoseph on Feb 28, 2010 22:00:35 GMT -5
How did the Devil turn evil if sin didn't exist?This is a question that I have been having difficulty with. If God isn't the creator of Sin, how did this non existent sin come about in a perfect being that was created without sin? Because sin is a choice. Making a choice is an action you do inside of your mind. Just like other actions (running, sleeping, singing, etc) the action of choosing sin does not really exist in the sense that THINGS exist (feet, beds, sheet music, etc). You can not hold a handful of "running" in the same way you can not hold a handful of "sin". Neither of them is a created THING. God created the possibility of running by creating legs and feet and the ground. Whether someone decides to use this possibility to run is up to them. Likewise, God created the possibility of moral choice by creating the human mind and giving us life. Whether we choose to exercise this ability in love or sin is up to us. Sometimes the Bible talks about sin as if it a literal thing (noun) and not an action. This is figurative or common language rather than philosophically accurate language. Sometimes sin is even personified as if it is a person who sinners battle with. We should not think that sin (a choice) is a created physical or spiritual thing. Sin is an action of our physical/spiritual selves in which one aims at self pleasure above all else. Making this choice does not cause anything new to come into creation. It simply is using God's creation for the wrong purpose.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 1, 2010 1:14:27 GMT -5
God created us with a free will, so that we could freely choose the good and freely refuse the evil. This was a risk on God's part because with a free will, we are not only capable of creating good, we are also capable of creating evil.
Our choices are our own creations. The faculty of free will actually originates, or creates, choices which did not previously exist. Since sin is a choice, each sinner creates their own sin.
Sin is not something that God created, sin is something that men and angels created.
In fact, God cannot create sin for us, because sin itself is a choice and therefore can only be created by the moral being himself. Likewise sin cannot be inherited or transmitted because sin is a choice and therefore can only be created by the moral being himself.
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Post by dmatic on Mar 6, 2010 18:22:26 GMT -5
How did the Devil turn evil if sin didn't exist?This is a question that I have been having difficulty with. If God isn't the creator of Sin, how did this non existent sin come about in a perfect being that was created without sin? Good question mattmahar. It is true that most think that the devil was first created "perfect" meaning without sin...but Jesus tells us that he was from the beginning a murderer and a liar! So, it appears that he was created that way! The conclusion is that God must have purpose for creating evil! Peace, dmatic
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Post by benjoseph on Mar 7, 2010 14:50:20 GMT -5
Jesus tells us that [the devil] was from the beginning a murderer and a liar! So, it appears that he was created that way! The conclusion is that God must have purpose for creating evil! Peace, dmatic From the beginning of what?
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 9, 2010 23:00:28 GMT -5
Thank you guys for the answers that you have given. I'm going to look into them all and see if I can draw a conclusion that I am satisfied with.
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Post by crossreference on Jun 12, 2010 5:49:13 GMT -5
Sin only becomes an issue when vanity has had its way within a being [angel or human] who has been subjected to it for the purpose of revealing allegiance to God. Pride, generally speaking, is the beginning of the downward slide away from God. In this sense we are able to understand why God created evil, most only see as being 'harmless' vanity. See Romans 8:19-21 for more understanding in this matter.
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Jun 21, 2010 12:05:14 GMT -5
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day, that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. This verse speaking of the devil states that he was made perfect, as all of God's creation was, but the sin of pride was found in him. Just as man is innocent until his sin, which is his choice, the devil was perfect until his sin. God did not make sin, only the choice. God wants us to choose obedience out of genuine love, not a forced love. But it is our choice to be disobedient that the result is sin, therefore the author of sin is man in his disobedience. The author of the first sin would be the devil by his disobedience and pride.
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Post by crossreference on Jun 23, 2010 6:54:41 GMT -5
I don't think so Kenm. God's creation was only "good". Perfection was a "hope" He had that would have been satisfied had Adam properly chosen what God set before him. We might say the choice was between Vanity and faith, death and life. Again, see Rom. 8:20 on this. Therefore, Sin wasn't a choice set before Adam but it was vanity. Once Adam chose vanity and acted upon it, we were irreversibly sealed to always having to deal with it and mankind had no power over it aside from his own will that from Adam on would be under continual attack from the enemy of his soul to affect his affinities to satisfy his flesh. Dealing with temptation would always be with him. Even Jesus had to deal with. How He got the victory over it is but the demonstration for us to emulate.
Vanity has always been a greater power than than the weak will of a man. That is why those in the OT who had strong wills unto righteousness, were those chosen of God to do His righteousness. That said however, no strong will of man unto righteousness, could ever extricate him from the grave. He was sealed to it by Adam's transgression that needed canceling out by a sinless human being. For that, in the fullness of time, entered Jesus.
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Jun 23, 2010 9:45:38 GMT -5
The verse says what it says, besides the verse is speaking of the devil not Adam as you are saying in your post. Adam did not need redemption until he sinned. There was no sin in Adam or Eve until they disobeyed God. God did not make them flawed or with sin. As i stated above God is not the author of sin, man is, by his disobedience. Even today people sin by their choice. The very first sin a person commits is the sin that warrants an eternity in hell. Yes, Jesus is that way to have fellowship with the Father and make atonement for our sins, but those sins are just that, OURS, not something inherited or instilled by God. That is what makes the Gospel so amazing, is that God made a way while we were in rebellion against Him by our disobedience to still love us enough to send His Son to die on the cross. He did not do this to fix His flaw in creation, for God has no flaws, but to fix man's sin.
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Post by crossreference on Jun 23, 2010 13:23:40 GMT -5
Sin is a relationship. Lucifer was the author of sin. Vanity brought it on with him as with Adam. When Adam sinned, having chosen the same way of vanity and to be captured by it, he established a relationship with Satan that eternally, affected us all. That is not arguable if you factor in the power of sin we experience and whence it originated that man could not extricate himself, regardless of his righteousness, his honoring God or by keeping the commandments. It was a blood issue and man needed, as it is sometimes called, a blood transfusion. Again, enter Jesus.
You are making some statements that can't be supported from the accounts in scripture. For instance, mans' so called rebellion against God. It was never a rebellion issue as it was a deception in thinking you could do you own thing. . . . which still goes on today by much of the "new born" of Christ. Question: Would you include Joseph in that rebellious crowd? How 'bout Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Mary, Simeon and Anna, perhaps? Obviously not. So your declaration needs, at least, some refinement, wouldn't you say?
Sin is never fixed. It is canceled out. Only someone born into creation from outside it, could accomplish the task. Jesus comes quickly to mind. Having accomplished it, we, who are born again stand now upon a totally new baseline called "Redemption", the old being of the "Law and sin". As Paul speaks of it in Romans, "God forbid we should go back to the old baseline that God be glorified". . . . over and over and over again.
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Jun 24, 2010 8:57:40 GMT -5
Sin in not a relationship it is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. The definition is to miss the mark, by disobeying God, which is a choice and not a relationship, we sin. The Bible states in Romans that we are slaves to that which you serve, and to yeild your members unto righteousness. John even rights to bear fruit meet of repentance. Sin is fixed when we repent and trust in Christ, we are given power over sin. We have the same flesh as Christ and we have the Holy Spirit in us so we have no excuse to sin. We are commanded not to sin 1 John 1:6, Ephesians 5:8. The Bible says all have have sinned not that we must continue in sin Rom. 3:23.1 John 1:10 says that we can not say we have not sinned, and also commands us not to sin anymore. 1 John 1:6
As far as including Joseph, Abraham,Issac, and Jacob and the others listed they all sinned and when they were in that sin they were in rebellion against God at that point.
We do have freedom in Christ but that freedom is not to continue in sin but freedom from sin. Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. John 14:15
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Post by crossreference on Jun 24, 2010 10:09:27 GMT -5
May God help us to understand that that is, not His word.
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kenm
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Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on Jun 25, 2010 9:13:24 GMT -5
How do you say that this is not His Word when I have given you Bible verses. In your responses you have told me what you think but I have shared what the Bible says.
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Post by crossreference on Jun 25, 2010 9:48:14 GMT -5
I bet your pardon. You have given but strained and warped opinion of what YOU believe from the scriptures, heavily weighted with the shallow perspective of others you have now come to rely upon as being the "gospel". For instance: You cannot answer the question 'why it took Jesus three and a half years of earthly ministry to finally die for the sins of the world'. Try it. Lets see, from your perspective, if you can that will make any sense.
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