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Post by earlychurcher on Feb 5, 2011 11:25:59 GMT -5
How many of you have read David Bercot's "Will the real heretics please stand up?"
And what did you think of it?
Did it make you rethink your position on anything doctrinal?
(a little background on me I was born again and baptized Southern Baptist and then someone introduced my husband and me to the early church writers and now we attend an Anglican church but are considering starting a home fellowship due to the extra unbiblical/non early church things plus lack of morality-and that from the conservative cont. Anglicans!)
Hoping to hear from ya'll, ec
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Post by Andreas on Feb 7, 2011 23:18:43 GMT -5
I did, some years ago, on the return flight from the USA. The book had a strong impact on me and gave a boost to my rethinking of the theological traditions I was immersed in up until that time. The perspective of the book was almost completely new to me, even though I had read bulks of evangelical, charismatic, darbyist and catholic literature before and was very interested in history. But this perspective was almost nonexistent in Germany and still is. To open it up is the strength of Bercot’s message.
Did I rethink my position on anything doctrinal? Yes I did, but David Bercot’s books were only one important factor in that process. The giant deception behind Reformation theology became clear to me through many things.
There was also a huge mistake I made, and I urge anybody who is moved by the early church movement not to make it. I was excited about the things David Bercot wrote and said and accepted much of it. But I did actually only read little of the writings of the early Christians themselves. I should have known better. Not reading the writings of Luther and Calvin themselves and only relying on sanitized messages based on Luther and Calvin had made it possible for me to come under the evangelical deception in the first place. And even though the differences are great, and even though none of them was as obviously evil as Luther and Calvin, the truth can’t be denied: Many of the early Christian writers, even before Nicaea, were blatant false teachers. David Bercot tries to hide this in his writings and for the most part shows only what remained of the light and beauty of the original Gospel among them – and what was still enough to elevate the early Christians, seen as a whole, much above today’s Christianity.
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Post by earlychurcher on Feb 10, 2011 20:16:31 GMT -5
Hey Andreas
I was wondering which early church writers and what subjects did you see as "false"?
I know Origen was universalist, and Tertullian was overly into punishment (years and years to be forgiven for sins) and Clement of Alexandria was legalistic to a certain extent. Is this what you were referring to or something else? BTW, I see the above as false teaching.
EC
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Post by earlychurcher on Feb 12, 2011 15:08:49 GMT -5
Dear earlychurcher, before we begin on a doctrinal fight, something that remains fruitless regularly, I want to ask you: Do you believe in the Scriptures? Do you believe it to be correct, when Paul wrote: A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 1 Tim 2:11-12 I ask this, not to pull you down, but because many women abuse internet forums to circumvent the command given in Scripture and act dominantly and teach. You have to explain though why you have labeled my entire testimony as false teaching. What in it, in your opinion, is false teaching? Andreas Wow I guess I can't even ask a question or have a conversation about a book without being lumped into the "well I know of women who try to get around it and argue doctrine with men" crowd. Forget I even asked. BTW, I wasn't saying your testimony was false teaching I was talking about Origen, Tertullian, and Clement saying "the above" as in that (my) post. wow. just wow.
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Post by Andreas on Feb 13, 2011 0:19:28 GMT -5
Dear earlychurcher, I'm very sorry you changed that post. I had read the original version, but first had no time to answer and then felt sick, had to lay down. I regret that now, because your original version was great. It was written in a spirit of meekness and was very reasonable. Now you seem to react out of hurt. I know what I will do: I will answer to your original post, from memory, having the hope that you will consider changing your post back. _____ Regarding your third point: I’m so sorry! I indeed understood you to refer generally to my testimony, when you wrote: BTW, I see the above as false teaching. As you write, this could be understood that way, but I’m probably more to blame, not getting the finer connotations of the English language. Regarding your first point: What I wrote regarding “doctrinal fights” is to be seen on the background of my misunderstanding, believing you referred to my entire post as “false teaching”. To me, it looked like the beginning of one of those typical “doctrinal duels” with two people stepping up against each other, trying to gain a “victory” over the opponent with rhetorical and philosophical weapons, not being interested to involve others in the discussions, the fruit of it remaining nil. It's sad to say, but I have observed that often in this forum. Regarding your second point: As I said, I didn’t wrote that to pull you down. But I wanted to remind you that to aggressively accuse a man of false teaching and to begin a doctrinal fight with him (again: misunderstanding) is something very unbiblical for a woman to do. But you explained very well how your attitude really is. Regarding your request to explain what I’m referring to when I’m writing about false teaching of early Christian writers: I will elaborate on this, explain in more detail what I mean, but I have no time now, I will do that later or in the coming days. Andreas
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Post by whatdidjesussay on Jun 12, 2011 23:41:55 GMT -5
Dear earlychurcher, before we begin on a doctrinal fight, something that remains fruitless regularly, I want to ask you: Do you believe in the Scriptures? Do you believe it to be correct, when Paul wrote: A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 1 Tim 2:11-12 I ask this, not to pull you down, but because many women abuse internet forums to circumvent the command given in Scripture and act dominantly and teach. You have to explain though why you have labeled my entire testimony as false teaching. What in it, in your opinion, is false teaching? Andreas I was wondering why you hold this position? Other than Paul giving his opinion about the place of women in the church, where did Jesus or the twelve hold to this teaching. As I remember Jesus had no issue discussing the law and the gospel with the woman at the well. Should we also consider Paul's letter to Timothy instructing him to bring along his cloak inspired? If we are to count every word of Paul above that of Jesus and the Twelve, then should not the church forbid marriage, or better yet should those who desire to become disciples do as Paul instructed and refrain from marriage? Peter went around with his wife, so I would assume he did not share Paul's opinion on marriage. I think you need to remember, there is only one Teacher, Rabbi, Father, at least that is what Jesus instructed. Anyone claiming more authority to teach has made himself greater then his master. I agree whole heartily with Paul when he said in 1 Tim 6:3+4 that Jesus' words are the only source of orthodoxy.
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Post by Andreas on Dec 29, 2011 18:23:09 GMT -5
I was wondering why you hold this position? Other than Paul giving his opinion about the place of women in the church, where did Jesus or the twelve hold to this teaching. As I remember Jesus had no issue discussing the law and the gospel with the woman at the well. Should we also consider Paul's letter to Timothy instructing him to bring along his cloak inspired? If we are to count every word of Paul above that of Jesus and the Twelve, then should not the church forbid marriage, or better yet should those who desire to become disciples do as Paul instructed and refrain from marriage? Peter went around with his wife, so I would assume he did not share Paul's opinion on marriage. I think you need to remember, there is only one Teacher, Rabbi, Father, at least that is what Jesus instructed. Anyone claiming more authority to teach has made himself greater then his master. I agree whole heartily with Paul when he said in 1 Tim 6:3+4 that Jesus' words are the only source of orthodoxy. Even though you wrote this many months ago, I will answer. First of all, I completely misunderstood earlychurcher. I believed she attacked me. This was entirely my fault, I am not a native speaker of the English language and should have asked before reacting that harshly. I asked for her forgiveness, but never heard of her again. It is so sad. On what you wrote on the subject of biblical gender roles: I hold it to be wrong to create an opposition between Jesus and Paul. To do this is wrong on any subject: On salvation as well as on gender roles. Jesus spoke with the woman at the well but he didn`t chose female apostles. He didn't bring women into teaching positions. I therefore don't see where Paul contradicted Jesus. To say, Paul's instructions on gender roles are to be taken no different than his remark to bring his cloak is an excuse in my sight, to wiggle out of biblical teaching and create one after one's own wishes.
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