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Post by supermom on Jun 4, 2011 15:56:51 GMT -5
I've been taught original sin my whole life and never once questioned it till now. I had no IDEA that it was only a theory! I thought it was basic part of Christianity! A must, so to speak. Anyways, I've been reading on this thread, watching video's etc. and trying to learn as much as I can. Something is bothering me though- Why is there not much information out on the web about original sin being false? I understand the majority is not always right, but why isn't there more information out there? More people who have discovered this? If you look up "original sin" on youtube Jesse's post's are the only ones one there that oppose?
I've gone back and looked at scripture, and I'm learning that original sin very well may not be true but I am still troubled with this.....
If we could essentially not sin our whole lives (since sinning is a choice) then why can the writers of the bible be so bold to claim "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?" Also the "We all like sheep" verse comes to mind.....
Any answers are greatly appreciated!
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 4, 2011 18:43:16 GMT -5
It helped me to realize that there are two different topics here. Whether or not every person has sinned is a different topic from whether anyone actually has to sin.
Free will makes it possible for everyone to be good or bad. That means it is possible for everyone to be good or to be bad. But even if everyone has sinned, that could never mean that anyone had to.
When science experiments produce the same results over and over again, scientists say there is probably some physical law making it happen. But free will is not like the laws of nature. We can't say there must be some law regarding moral choices (like original sin) just because of the statistics.
Imagine if everyone had always been good like Jesus Christ. It would not be right to say that everyone was born righteous just because they all obeyed God. Likewise, we are not born sinful, even if everyone has actually made evil choices. It is two different questions.
The context of Rom 3 "all have sinned" has to do with whether Jews are better than Gentiles. It doesn't seem necessary to take it to be about every single individual that ever lived. I think a lot of similar passages are often taken out of context, or too literally. But, like I said, it is truly possible that every single person had sinned when these passages were written. And I don't see how it could be proven if someone had lived a holy life.
I think it is more important that the bible does not say that everyone will sin (future tense).
For a while I worried it did say that in 1st John ("If we say we have not sinned"). But I think the context of that passage may just be about people who lie when they have in fact done wrong.
I think the devil probably uses the doctrine of original sin, and the idea that sin is unavoidable, to discourage good people and to comfort bad people, the goal being to make everyone bad. Some people might be more comfortable with the idea of original sin because then they are not so bad after all, they couldn't help it. Other people are probably just being taught it and don't know any better.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 12, 2011 17:57:42 GMT -5
Free will makes it possible for everyone to be good or bad. That means it is possible for everyone to be good or to be bad. Sorry, I guess I made an editing mistake and said that twice. I was thinking more about what you said: "why can the writers of the bible be so bold to claim 'For ALL have sinned'" If everyone has turned away from God, then He more than anyone else would want to know why. But Jesus said "they hated me without cause". And God asked sinful people more than once in the bible "Why will you die?" Jesus also told a parable of a man who was at the feast without having the proper clothing and when he was questioned, he was only speechless. Only obedience to God (love) has a good reason. But sin (selfishness) has no reason. It is unreasonable and insane. The only logical expectation is obedience. But we are not subject to logic. We have power over our own intentions, to choose reasonably or not.
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Post by whatdidjesussay on Jun 13, 2011 0:03:35 GMT -5
I have always wondered about this topic, what is your measurement of what is a sin? What do you use as the definition of sin source?
I would assume the 10 commandments, which if you dissect these commands they should actually be easy to keep. If you go through them what individual commandment would be so hard to keep?
I believe the reformers have it all wrong, saying we should forget about trying to keep the commandments of the God of Sinai. I would say the one that probably no one on these boards keeps is the sabbath, which was commanded to be kept on the seventh day of the week. In a way (Roman) Christianity long after the early church changed the sabbath day. Yes we can all argue that Paul spoke of the Lord's day, but do we know if he was speaking of YHWH or the Roman pagan Lord's day, Sun Day or the Sun's Day?
My question here is based on Jesus saying His word will never pass away, so I suppose He also meant those words concerning His commandments.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 13, 2011 11:04:07 GMT -5
I think we all know what being good and being bad is.
When the Lord looked around and asked the people if it was lawful to do good on the sabbath, they all shushed because they knew what good was automatically. Their knowledge of good didn't just hinge on holy writings. They recognized lawfulness just by considering it. This knowledge is in everyone's heart, although we can damage it to some extent.
But I implicitly defined sin as selfishness in that last post. If we get psychological about sin, it boils down to selfishness.
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Post by whatdidjesussay on Jun 13, 2011 20:14:52 GMT -5
Wait a minute, your opinion of what sin is or is not, is not the answer. I was looking for what God said sin is, has He changed regarding the Law written with His finger on stone and then given to Moses to teach to the people?
The reason they were silent was because they knew the law, as they were instructed from their early youth to keep the law or be cut off from the covenant.
According to Jesus the Law has not passed away. Do you believe the law was crucified with Jesus?
Now there are two sets of laws, one that if not kept leads to death (10 commandments). The other is the ceremonial law that if not kept leads to one being unclean, and thus not able to participate in Jewish society (life) or to enter the temple mount. Only Jews need to keep the ceremonial law, gentiles only have to keep the law required of the sojourner in the land.
A gentile is only permitted to keep the Passover if they accept circumcision.
Think about what Jesus accused the Pharisees of, not keeping the whole law, but only keeping the lighter parts of the law leaving the important parts out of the equation. Like the commandment requiring us to honor our mother and father, the Pharisees had created Korban practices.
The young man who called Jesus good claimed to have kept the commandments from his early childhood, Jesus did not think him a lair as Calvinist would have you believe. He only suggested the man's wealth would cloud his chances of attaining eternal life. Jesus told him to guarantee his salvation by giving his possessions to the poor and following him. I believe Jesus counted the young man righteous because he had kept the commandments all of his life, and was fit to follow Him.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 14, 2011 15:52:01 GMT -5
As I understand it, the ten commandments were a particular application of God's law for Israel. The law was in the heart thousands of years before it was on stone.
I don't know exactly what you mean by the law being crucified (I know there's a verse like that), but that makes sense to me in a figurative way if we're talking about forgiveness. I got the impression that maybe you didn't think you should accept the apostle Paul's writings?
I don't personally know any Christians who are sojourners in Israel. As I understand it, tragically, God had to reject Israel. But if they become reconciled to God maybe He will exalt them again. Maybe that would be a blessing to all of us if God gave them some kind of special role again.
In the meantime, we have the command "Let him who hears say 'Come'". So I figure that gives us the special role. So we should learn a lesson from Israel's fall because who are we?
Are you Jewish?
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Post by whatdidjesussay on Jun 14, 2011 23:08:42 GMT -5
No, I am not Jewish.
What I am asking, is do you believe Jesus' death and resurrection made the law void to Christians and Jews? Did Jesus' words about fulfilling the law in your opinion end the necessity to keep the law by His children?
As to Paul, I believe his epistles should not carry the same weight as the words of Jesus. If Paul's writings seem to contradict those of Jesus we must reject Paul in favor of Jesus. Jesus told the apostles He was the only teacher, they were only to be instructors of His words they were not given license to change the gospel He gave them, correct?
My beef with Paul is biblical, no where in the scriptures is Paul called an apostle, except by himself. Biblically, and legally one cannot be a witness to himself, he must have two others to testify for there to be truth. The scriptures are very plain there are only 12 apostles, Judas was replaced by Matthias. Revelation speaks of 12 thrones for the 12 apostles, Paul is not included as an apostle.
In 2 Peter, Paul is called a beloved brother not an apostle. Beloved brother to one who claims to be an apostle was probably taken as an insult.
As to Paul's message being called scripture 2 Peter, not all that was written was considered inspired scripture (writings) by the Hebrews. There were and are today 3 distinctions in the Hebrew scriptures. These are broken down as follows; Torah, Prophets who's prophecies have come to pass these are inspired by God. Second includes what we call the Apocryphal books, these are not definitely not inspired but are good for teaching moral lessons.
The third section is called Ketuvim this is also scripture but is not as yet considered inspired. Daniel was included in this section until the Messiah came, this was because his prophesy regarding the Messiah's coming had not as yet come to pass. What the author (Peter) was saying to Paul was that his words were Ketuvim that is not inspired, but scripture. Just to clarify the word scripture means writings.
So my thought here is, if Paul was said to be confusing, allowing some to twist his words to promote evil, then why bother regarding any of Paul's epistles as inspired? What was the author of 2 Peter saying exactly about what evil was being promoted by his teachings be twisted? Could this have been Paul's words saying the law was no longer in force, that it had been nailed to the cross, and had not resurrected with Jesus? I believe Peter did not believe that Paul meant to teach these ideas in his writings, and must have thought Paul's words must have been twisted by those who were preaching abrogation of the law.
I think it is quite plain the apostles were keeping the law all along, before and after the resurrection. The apostles were keeping the sabbath day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on them. By that time, I think they had been informed of the entire message of Jesus would you not agree? And they were still keeping the law.
The early church most definitely kept the festivals of the Lord, the easter orthodox to this day keeps Passover, only the English speaking churches call Passover by the pagan name Easter. The change of the sabbath day to the Sun's Day is recorded in history during the reign of Constantine the Great, up until that time the church kept God's seventh day sabbath.
My biggest issue with Paul was found in Duet 13: 1-4 I believe Paul's epistles fit the text exactly, he preached the law was no longer in force, that it had passed away. But this would be exactly what God was warning against when He said if anyone comes with signs and wonders that come true (like on the road to Damascus) but teaches you to follow a different path or god or tries to cancel what has come before from God, then he is a false prophet. We should cling to God and His commandments alone.
Yes I know this is considered damnable heresy by most who claim to be Christians, but all of what I have written is supported in the inspired scriptures of God.
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Post by benjoseph on Jun 15, 2011 22:33:48 GMT -5
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Post by biblesays on Jun 20, 2011 6:42:37 GMT -5
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Post by logic on Jun 23, 2011 11:27:43 GMT -5
I've been taught original sin my whole life and never once questioned it till now. I had no IDEA that it was only a theory! I thought it was basic part of Christianity! A must, so to speak. Anyways, I've been reading on this thread, watching video's etc. and trying to learn as much as I can. Good for you!!! Because if anything is labeled "heresy" or "heretic", then people will treat it as such and never take time to understand it. Who wants to consider heresy? I know that I don't. However, once one starts to consider the logical conclusions to the doctrines that one has adopted & the reality of things pertaining to Scripture, you will be lead to reconsider the so called "orthodox" doctrines as you are doing now. There is plenty, but it's like any spiritual matter; one must search for it by prayer & not be afraid to be called a heretic for what you know is true; what you learn that which is called heresy is actually the truth. I've lost many friends & was asked to leave a church that I attended for 20 years because of this. There is more than is lead on to believe. Since I found this truth, I have been lead to MANY people of like minded Christians. I hope you will too. I can introduce you to some if you don't mind. Do you have a Facebook account? Keep looking, you'll find more. I'm hear for you. Ask me anything & I will help as much as I can. I know that benjoseph has a great mind and can explain things very well, so it is for many on this board. benjoseph explained it well in this link: docs.google.com/document/d/1OtI978cVOiH4OQbKVIcKFYjj_FwFbJBMZyTk41ZXy9w/edit?hl=en_USI used this in my commentary of the book of Romans. Figure the other nations never had a God whom they went astray from. This verse is concerning Israel, who had gone astray from Him who they knew. All who read it that aren't of Israel may sympathize with it since they have gone astray from their conscience. However, we know that Job has never gone astray. Also, you never hear of Enoch going astray also. Would you imagine that Melchizedek has ever gone astray? How about Joshuah? Or Caleb? There must be many more who are not recorded in Scripture also. I hope mine are satisfactory. By the way, here is a great source for you concerning the truth: www.dividingword.net
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Post by jcjsda on Mar 17, 2012 0:37:22 GMT -5
I have always wondered about this topic, what is your measurement of what is a sin? What do you use as the definition of sin source? I would assume the 10 commandments, which if you dissect these commands they should actually be easy to keep. If you go through them what individual commandment would be so hard to keep? I believe the reformers have it all wrong, saying we should forget about trying to keep the commandments of the God of Sinai. I would say the one that probably no one on these boards keeps is the sabbath, which was commanded to be kept on the seventh day of the week. In a way (Roman) Christianity long after the early church changed the sabbath day. Yes we can all argue that Paul spoke of the Lord's day, but do we know if he was speaking of YHWH or the Roman pagan Lord's day, Sun Day or the Sun's Day? My question here is based on Jesus saying His word will never pass away, so I suppose He also meant those words concerning His commandments. Brother you are not alone. Some 17 million Christians keep the Sabbath today. These are the lovely Seventh Day Adventists. You will find a church close by. They keep the Sabbath and love God's law. God changes not , in Malachi 3.16 and we love God's word. I think you are right. Many of the reformers were corrupted by the RC church influence to destroy the bible - that was the dark ages, the medi-evil times, where in Europe no one was allowed the bible in their own language. Today we find many people rereading their lost bibles and seeing that , like Martin L, that what is preached and what God said via a "Thus saith the Lord"is not the same anymore. There are many who are out to destroy God's word and republish bibles with paraphrasing and other bubble gum. NIV has some 6000 words cut from it from the KJV. Look up Amazing Facts org, or watch Walter Vieght on YTube. He expounds the two types of bible- the accurate one vs the man made one. God bless you. ps by the way there were Seventh Day Baptists in 1640 ish , who kept the Sabbath in England, and the SDA uphold them. Further that in Ethopia that many churches NEVER LOST THE SABBATH ever, despite persecution from the Je suits to move to a Sunday. In fact that they threw out those Je suits at one time and went back to Sabbath. God is good to his people. God bless.
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Post by jcjsda on Mar 17, 2012 1:03:29 GMT -5
I've been taught original sin my whole life and never once questioned it till now. I had no IDEA that it was only a theory! I thought it was basic part of Christianity! A must, so to speak. Anyways, I've been reading on this thread, watching video's etc. and trying to learn as much as I can. Something is bothering me though- Why is there not much information out on the web about original sin being false? I understand the majority is not always right, but why isn't there more information out there? More people who have discovered this? If you look up "original sin" on youtube Jesse's post's are the only ones one there that oppose? I've gone back and looked at scripture, and I'm learning that original sin very well may not be true but I am still troubled with this..... If we could essentially not sin our whole lives (since sinning is a choice) then why can the writers of the bible be so bold to claim "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?" Also the "We all like sheep" verse comes to mind..... Any answers are greatly appreciated! Yes original sin is a RC church approach to make us look really bad. But it is not biblical at all. In fact the bible teaches us that original sin was started by satan in heaven, when he lifted himself up before God as a created being. That is critical. God created a perfect angel , luicifier , yet even he corrupted himself. Isaiah 28, Ezekiel 14 cover that. Further Revelation tells us that there was a war in heaven and God cast them with a third part of angels to earth. THEN God made Adam and Eve and surprise surprise, they were perfect , like God , PERFECT , with everlasting life. So we had no original sin at that time exactly. Yet when the talking snake , clearly satan, mislead and lied to Eve, that was yet another sin - before Eve did anything. Can you then see, we were perfect until Satan mislead us. God wants us to see that we were designed to be different from mere angels who are created. We are born through a women and have free will. God uses us to show Satan that free will beings - man - and women - can free will see their sinful state and turn to God. That is pure love. That then moving from Eve pure to Eve sinned state we see that Satan miselad her, lied to her, misquoted the bible to her - "surely you will NOT die'and then Eve SINNED. Okay that is the first sin ever of these new human beings with free will. Then it repeated each steps, Adam sins, Cain kills Able, and on and on and on. Is there original sin? No., We are not tainted by Satan's first sins. Go tell the RC priest that and ask him who sinned first. You will see that they will say other than what God wrote in the bible via his prophets. Paul , and his "'ALL have sinned'quote. Well it is true. Paul was an exceptional person, highly trianed. Yet he said all his past, his teaching he counted as "DUNG". So avoid man's teachings and look to Jesus , the author and finisher of your faith. We have all sinned, from little children when we grab, scream, cry, steal and lie as we grow up you can see we have taken Satan's sinful nature. Remember that Adam and Eve were perfect. Was Eve to conceive and have sex? God had a secret plan and we are the outcome. If we had kept our purity then we would see our 'sinful' nature, our 'fleshy'nature and avoid it like the plague, confessing sinful thoughts to God and seeking his lighter yoke. Key is that there are two of everthing. This world was perfect but ruined by Satan and his mob. Eve and Adam , who had dominion over everything at creation , from God, lost it as soon as he sinned, and Satan got the dominion of this earth. Adam then became a master to Satan. Satan has this world and his people, He has his way and 'truth'and life that is entirely false yet a very close copy of God's way. God says he will come and save us from this huge mistake and take us to heaven, (1 Thess 4.16.17) and then for 1000 years we look over the books of life. We then come back to earth , with Jesus , in the new City and the dead wicked are resurrected and the final war starts and ends with all into the lake of fire. We will then walk on their ashes and God will make all things new. (Isaiah 65,66). God will then end sin once and for all. You see we have to get our sins back to Jesus , through prayer, forgive me , 1 john 5.9, and then Jesus, who bore all sins to the cross, (boy Satan hates to hear that) then took those sins to heaven, past, present and future, and those who accept Jesus , and are baptised by immersion (Mark 16.16, on top of John 3.16, and baptised) God will then allow Jesus, the slain lamb of revelation, who is only one fit to open the seven seals, to start the process of countdown to finishing it and closing the books of life and death once and for all. Jesus then having taken my and your sins to heaven, then as we accept Christ, our old sins go to Jesus, and then he takes them and puts them to Satan's account. Satan mislead all at the start and he is responsible. IF you lie to another and they do wrong then you are accountable true??? This is the Sanctuary system that God gave to Moses, as a sample of what goes on in heaven. So we better understand how we get our sins off us and stop new sins from coming . Paul said if we sin from knowledge we re re-cucify Christ again each time. Ouch. So that is why repent and turn is the key to heaven. Many new preachers are corrupted by 'love' and there is no more law any more . Grace abounds. This is false teaching. Go murder someone and tell me there is no law. A person who keeps lying , or cheating on his wife , as many preachers of this new method do, is not a Christian at all , other than that their lips are near but hearts far away. Lord lord, yet I never knew you. The truth path is to God. All this is in www.amazingfacts.org, which is a seventh day adventist group , teaching back to the bible and bible only. BIBLE. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.........lol. God bless you. John Johns jcjsda yahoo com
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