Post by ausdisciple on Oct 11, 2012 3:27:37 GMT -5
Hi everyone. This is my first post here. Jesse, you might have seen my posts on Facebook and some other places. I don't know who else is a member here but yourself, John McGlone, Kerrigan Skelly, Ryan Hicks and others have been a big encouragement to me.
I'm an open air preacher from Australia and am a member of www.streetchurch.com.au
My YouTube channel is www.youtube.com/user/AusDisciple and my website is www.ausdisciples.com
I recently posted a pivotal part of my testimony on Facebook which I heartily encourage everyone to read here after reading this post....
Earlier today, I sent the following message to a dear brother and founding member of Street Church regarding my concerns over reformed theology (which almost everyone in my church holds to) and their stance on original sin.
It looks like God has appointed me to be the one to battle this theology with them and this puts me WAY out of my comfort zone (I've only been born again for four years)!!!!
Even so, I praise God that He would choose to use someone He knows will need to rely on Him TOTALLY for the wisdom and courage to take on this battle!
What I am asking for here is prayer for two things.
Firstly, as mentioned above, the courage and wisdom to face this battle against experienced and persuasive members of our church.
Secondly, for their eyes, ears and hearts to be open and willing to look into the core issues of original sin and its offshoot doctrines.
OK, here's the message I sent (I've added some un-italicized and colored comments in between to help explain things):
I've been struggling to reconcile a number of views our church holds to for a while now but have remained quiet about them for the sake of not causing a controversy.
The things we discussed in the city seemed somewhat plausible (you guys can be very persuasive!!) until I came home and considered them carefully. In light of the Greek, I cannot hold to the understanding Caleb has on Romans 5:18-19. It fits with the commentaries he's reading but not with the Greek. In fact, the Greek states what I was saying originally.
Caleb's view of Romans 5:18-19 is that the ALL in verse 18 refers firstly to ALL in Adam and the second one is ALL in Christ. In other words, ALL born of Adam are condemned because of his sin and ALL who are born again of Christ are justified through substitutionary atonement.
My view is that ALL who do what Adam did are condemned in like manner because of their own choice and ALL who repent (actually turn away from their willful rebellion) and follow Christ are reckoned righteous by His death and resurrection (His atonement being an eternal sin sacrifice, NOT a wrath substitution) and freed FROM their sin.
The issue of whether it is fairer to believe we have a sin nature or are born into a fallen world that impacts us is really a red herring even considering the latter is actually true. What is important is what the bible teaches and neither myself, nor many others both today and throughout the last 1600 odd years can truly reconcile original sin with the scriptures unless we use a reformed filter to squeeze things into that theology.
The very beginnings of my stance on this matter ware formulated without me even realizing it BEFORE I ever read or heard anything outside of scripture. All I had when I first became born again was the bible and the Holy Ghost. It wasn't until I started listening to popular preachers on YouTube that I was exposed (not knowing what it was until later) to reformed theology.
As a new Christian at the time, I constantly found myself thinking, "Really? Is that what that means?"
Slowly but surely, I started to become indoctrinated with their thinking and started seeing scripture through their lens.
It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I started reading things from people who held to the same understanding I had when I first read the scriptures for myself.
The recent spark in me to get this out there is that knowing the depths of how ingrained reformed theology is (even in our church) and finding the resources to support my understanding, I cannot remain silent on this important issue. Reformed theology is founded on a backbone of paganism and many are genuinely deceived by it.
The reason there is an apparent knee jerk reaction with the anti Calvinist crowd is because Calvinism cannot exist without original sin as its foundation.
I know you don't hold to Calvinism and nor do the majority in our church but it is an offshoot doctrine formed on the back of Augustinian (and his predecessors) pagan influences and RCC connections. The information is out there if you are prepared to filter out the false accusations from very vocal opponents (mostly the Calvinists who don't want their precious doctrine shaken).
Please, I urge you to consider all this carefully and with much prayer. I love you as a bother very dearly and the same with everyone else in our church but I honestly believe this reformed deception has the vast majority in our church blinded.
I wouldn't have kept quiet about this for so long if it wasn't my desire to not cause a stir. However, it would be very unloving for me to have come to a point realizing the depths of the implications of reformed theology and remain silent on the matter.
I know full well that this is a huge issue and could either cost me dearly in fellowship or, taking a stand and speaking up could help awaken others to the deception.
I earnestly pray for the latter but I must take a stand.
As I hope you can appreciate, I am in the absolute minority on this matter so far in our church and have a huge burden to battle this on my own. Therefore, the connections with others who also hold to my understanding is an important balance for me.
When I am in a room full of people who've held to their doctrine (some for decades) and have the backing of the resources on our church shelves AND have the ability to debate convincingly (even if that stance is flawed), I truly feel like I'm being crushed by giants. Add to that the confidence and experience **** (name withheld for privacy) has gained in his court battles (I say that as a good thing) and you can appreciate the formidable task I have. To find others with the same understanding as me online is a huge relief for my burden. To be able to discuss this online and in public where we can share resources is a necessity for me.
You guys have the vast resources of reformed theology on the shelves and in the majority of popular sermons and preachers. All I ask is that you appreciate the resources I have discovered recently online.
True, there are some who are standing against original sin who have fairly poor arguments and flawed thinking but the same is true in any group, including reformers. Praise God for giving us the ability to discern such things.
Whatever the outcome, I pray none of us lose our focus on Christ and the great commission. Souls are heading to hell and we are the voices of ones crying in the spiritual desert of today.
In the love of Christ and with genuine concern.
I'm an open air preacher from Australia and am a member of www.streetchurch.com.au
My YouTube channel is www.youtube.com/user/AusDisciple and my website is www.ausdisciples.com
I recently posted a pivotal part of my testimony on Facebook which I heartily encourage everyone to read here after reading this post....
Earlier today, I sent the following message to a dear brother and founding member of Street Church regarding my concerns over reformed theology (which almost everyone in my church holds to) and their stance on original sin.
It looks like God has appointed me to be the one to battle this theology with them and this puts me WAY out of my comfort zone (I've only been born again for four years)!!!!
Even so, I praise God that He would choose to use someone He knows will need to rely on Him TOTALLY for the wisdom and courage to take on this battle!
What I am asking for here is prayer for two things.
Firstly, as mentioned above, the courage and wisdom to face this battle against experienced and persuasive members of our church.
Secondly, for their eyes, ears and hearts to be open and willing to look into the core issues of original sin and its offshoot doctrines.
OK, here's the message I sent (I've added some un-italicized and colored comments in between to help explain things):
I've been struggling to reconcile a number of views our church holds to for a while now but have remained quiet about them for the sake of not causing a controversy.
The things we discussed in the city seemed somewhat plausible (you guys can be very persuasive!!) until I came home and considered them carefully. In light of the Greek, I cannot hold to the understanding Caleb has on Romans 5:18-19. It fits with the commentaries he's reading but not with the Greek. In fact, the Greek states what I was saying originally.
Caleb's view of Romans 5:18-19 is that the ALL in verse 18 refers firstly to ALL in Adam and the second one is ALL in Christ. In other words, ALL born of Adam are condemned because of his sin and ALL who are born again of Christ are justified through substitutionary atonement.
My view is that ALL who do what Adam did are condemned in like manner because of their own choice and ALL who repent (actually turn away from their willful rebellion) and follow Christ are reckoned righteous by His death and resurrection (His atonement being an eternal sin sacrifice, NOT a wrath substitution) and freed FROM their sin.
The issue of whether it is fairer to believe we have a sin nature or are born into a fallen world that impacts us is really a red herring even considering the latter is actually true. What is important is what the bible teaches and neither myself, nor many others both today and throughout the last 1600 odd years can truly reconcile original sin with the scriptures unless we use a reformed filter to squeeze things into that theology.
The very beginnings of my stance on this matter ware formulated without me even realizing it BEFORE I ever read or heard anything outside of scripture. All I had when I first became born again was the bible and the Holy Ghost. It wasn't until I started listening to popular preachers on YouTube that I was exposed (not knowing what it was until later) to reformed theology.
As a new Christian at the time, I constantly found myself thinking, "Really? Is that what that means?"
Slowly but surely, I started to become indoctrinated with their thinking and started seeing scripture through their lens.
It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I started reading things from people who held to the same understanding I had when I first read the scriptures for myself.
The recent spark in me to get this out there is that knowing the depths of how ingrained reformed theology is (even in our church) and finding the resources to support my understanding, I cannot remain silent on this important issue. Reformed theology is founded on a backbone of paganism and many are genuinely deceived by it.
The reason there is an apparent knee jerk reaction with the anti Calvinist crowd is because Calvinism cannot exist without original sin as its foundation.
I know you don't hold to Calvinism and nor do the majority in our church but it is an offshoot doctrine formed on the back of Augustinian (and his predecessors) pagan influences and RCC connections. The information is out there if you are prepared to filter out the false accusations from very vocal opponents (mostly the Calvinists who don't want their precious doctrine shaken).
Please, I urge you to consider all this carefully and with much prayer. I love you as a bother very dearly and the same with everyone else in our church but I honestly believe this reformed deception has the vast majority in our church blinded.
I wouldn't have kept quiet about this for so long if it wasn't my desire to not cause a stir. However, it would be very unloving for me to have come to a point realizing the depths of the implications of reformed theology and remain silent on the matter.
I know full well that this is a huge issue and could either cost me dearly in fellowship or, taking a stand and speaking up could help awaken others to the deception.
I earnestly pray for the latter but I must take a stand.
As I hope you can appreciate, I am in the absolute minority on this matter so far in our church and have a huge burden to battle this on my own. Therefore, the connections with others who also hold to my understanding is an important balance for me.
When I am in a room full of people who've held to their doctrine (some for decades) and have the backing of the resources on our church shelves AND have the ability to debate convincingly (even if that stance is flawed), I truly feel like I'm being crushed by giants. Add to that the confidence and experience **** (name withheld for privacy) has gained in his court battles (I say that as a good thing) and you can appreciate the formidable task I have. To find others with the same understanding as me online is a huge relief for my burden. To be able to discuss this online and in public where we can share resources is a necessity for me.
You guys have the vast resources of reformed theology on the shelves and in the majority of popular sermons and preachers. All I ask is that you appreciate the resources I have discovered recently online.
True, there are some who are standing against original sin who have fairly poor arguments and flawed thinking but the same is true in any group, including reformers. Praise God for giving us the ability to discern such things.
Whatever the outcome, I pray none of us lose our focus on Christ and the great commission. Souls are heading to hell and we are the voices of ones crying in the spiritual desert of today.
In the love of Christ and with genuine concern.