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Post by valentine on Aug 23, 2006 16:03:32 GMT -5
So, Valentine, seeing the Bible affirms, in some sense, the "born that way" theory, and yet calls it a curse on wicked people....what would you say to that? I really have no idea what you're trying to say. But it does sound interesting. And as I keep saying, I do not believe that orientation is entirely genetic! It's both, y'all. Both. We don't know how much is one of the other yet; still workin' on that. And as I said to Miles, I pray to whatever god(s) exist that there is no "gay gene." But assuming that what you say is true, BT (I don't care enough to evaluate if it actually is), it seems yet another instance of your god being vindictive. He creates homosexual people then roasts them by virtue of being created? Right. That's real cool, god. Unless y'all buy into the predestination theory, in which I suppose you could see homosexuality as an outward manifestation of their "inner sinfulness," or something. Which I do not think you do. (Obviously, I certainly do not.)
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 23, 2006 17:19:50 GMT -5
Note the verses, val.
The sins of the FATHERS.
It's the familes who bring the curse; God only executes on the children;s children what the familes deserve by virtue of their wicked lifestyles.
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Post by cervyy on Aug 23, 2006 17:26:10 GMT -5
And this is Fair Thumpy? For the children??
I'd hate to imagine you thinking it is.
Reason #167 why I CANNOT convert to your "Christianity."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 23, 2006 17:50:06 GMT -5
I have a question for those of you who say God intended or designed certain people to be homosexuals. That it's not against His will, but actually is his will.
How did God intend for them to have sex?
How did God intend for them to have kids?
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Post by jesussaves on Aug 23, 2006 17:59:49 GMT -5
I have always wondered about that.What are they thinking!
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Post by jesussaves on Aug 23, 2006 18:03:23 GMT -5
It must be very frustrating for homosexuals.Alot of them get operations because they don't know what to do with the tetosterone.I think thats why they were raping people in Sodom and Gomorah.
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Post by valentine on Aug 23, 2006 18:15:46 GMT -5
How did God intend for them to have sex? I am so not answering this here. Jesse, if you really want to know how homosexuals have sex, I suppose I could tell you...but PM me. Adoption is a beautiful thing. The same way that god intended for sterile people to have kids! Didn't he make them sterile?
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Post by jesussaves on Aug 23, 2006 18:19:32 GMT -5
Alot of men are afraid of going to prison for fear of being raped.I have listen to enough documentaries on prison life to know this to be true.I would rather be killed than raped.
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Post by valentine on Aug 23, 2006 20:19:35 GMT -5
Alot of men are afraid of going to prison for fear of being raped.I have listen to enough documentaries on prison life to know this to be true.I would rather be killed than raped. I think you need to do a bit more research. Rape is not about sex, least of all prison rape. It also has nothing to do with sexual orientation. The majority of men who rape other men are heterosexual.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 23, 2006 21:03:16 GMT -5
I have a question for those of you who say God intended or designed certain people to be homosexuals. That it's not against His will, but actually is his will. How did God intend for them to have sex? How did God intend for them to have kids? Jesse, might I ask two questions of mine in response to your's? Did God intend for some children to be born without limbs, or mentally retarded, etc etc? Did God intend for hermaphrodites to be born with TWO genders? No; however, it HAPPENS, and you cannot deny that it HAPPENS. The same rule of standard must apply across the board. Are people "born gay"? No. Are they born with a TENDENCY in that area? Many ARE. That's simple fact. You simply cannot deny it, because MANY homosexuals believe they were "born gay" because they have NEVER been attracted to females. Again, this goes to the sins of the fathers. An explaination which says, "No, they chose to be like that" is far too flawed for any rational thought. No one chooses how they emtionally feel; they only choose how they RESPOND to how they feel. For anyone to say a homosexual forced his lifestyle on HIMSELF is to be ignorant of the many factors involved in the lifestyle. The Word of God clearly teaches that familes curse their children and their children's children through their hatred of God. This may be the curse of homosexuality, alcoholism, etc etc. So, again: Did God intend for some children to be born without limbs, or mentally retarded, etc etc? Did God intend for hermaphrodites to be born with TWO genders?
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Post by cervyy on Aug 23, 2006 22:42:09 GMT -5
I gotta wonder about God ... what did Thumpy's parents do then??
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 23, 2006 22:56:17 GMT -5
onlytruechristian,
You need to be a true Christian and start reading and obeying the bible. You don't get your ideas from the bible but from humanism.
As many as I love I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent. Revelation 3:19-author-Jesus Christ
Where is your love onlytruechristian?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 23, 2006 23:37:16 GMT -5
I don't know about people being born with homosexual tendencies BECAUSE of something their parents or ancestry did. It wouldn't surprise me if some were born with that tendency though, since we are all born with the tendency to sin. Most homosexuals that I have spoken to also have these two elements to deal with: 1) A same sex parent who didn't love or show affection as they should have. 2) They are genetically a little more like the opposite sex. Example- a male may have a more feminine disposition to him and a female may be more of a tomboy. Because of this, they are often teased and told that they are gay. Often times these two reasons influence the fact that they think they are "born homosexual." Then there are those who are born with NO tendencies to be homosexual and just choose it any way because of their evil unregenerate heart. Either way, it is not exceptable. All things are possible with God and if they will turn from their sins and put their faith in the Savior, He will give them a new hearts AND NEW DESIRES. Check out Exodus Ministries. Many have become Born Again and have gone from a homosexual lifestyle to a heterosexual one.
As far as reproduction is concerned...I often pose this question to a homosexul in the open air, "What if everyone in the world became homosexual all of a sudden...not bisexual, but TRUE Homosexuals? This world would die off in a matter of 80-100 years." That should be logical proof that God desires for NO ONE to be homosexual.
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Post by jesussaves on Aug 24, 2006 5:33:36 GMT -5
RevK wrote:
I think RevK wins this one!!!! ;D
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Post by valentine on Aug 24, 2006 7:25:43 GMT -5
Rev, kindly leave the psychobabble to the psychologists and I promise not to tell you about your religion, kay? I don't even know where to start with that. That just....broke my brain. As far as reproduction is concerned...I often pose this question to a homosexul in the open air, "What if everyone in the world became homosexual all of a sudden...not bisexual, but TRUE Homosexuals? This world would die off in a matter of 80-100 years." That should be logical proof that God desires for NO ONE to be homosexual. And if everyone in the world were female all of a sudden...not a hermaphrodite but TRUE females, this world would die off in a matter of 80-100 years. That should be logical proof that god desires for NO ONE to be female. The homosexuals you've said that to obviously didn't care enough to respond with what I just stated. I can't really say I blame them; sometimes I get sick of refuting the same things over and over, too. Different people bring different things to the world. Because that are, what? Different. Jesussaves, rethink your logic, please. EDIT to say: I THOUGHT that Jesussaves was Rebecca. Found you, sneaky girl. =P
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 24, 2006 8:44:56 GMT -5
I gotta wonder about God ... what did Thumpy's parents do then?? Well, curveball, looking at your avatar ( ) I have to wonder
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Post by cervyy on Aug 24, 2006 8:46:44 GMT -5
GAYS AND REPRODUCTION.
What would y'alls says is the world population at this very minute?? The exact number is lost on me, but I'm sure we can all agree that it would be HUGE!!!
What even half of those people were gay, so wouldn't be reproducing? That's still half of the planet reproducing. Factor in that even if HALF were gay, they get married too (or just stay together for the rest of their lives). Those half can still adopt children from other countries where that child mioght not have had the chance to grow up. Or they get a suragate mother for their own DNA. In the end, they can still maintain or even still help the grownth of the population!! Of course I really don't think half of the world IS gay, so it makes this scenerio so much better.
Eh-hem, I believe I just refuted.
And if the entire world did turn gay?? Then see above still!!
My belief is that God did have some people turn out gay. AND because the world is so populated and has been for a while, it's OKAY! At first God didn't want his first people gay because he made but a handful (how many we'll never know, but that's what you get with an incomplete story).
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Post by cervyy on Aug 24, 2006 8:49:30 GMT -5
I gotta wonder about God ... what did Thumpy's parents do then?? Well, curveball, looking at your avatar ( ) I have to wonder Funny story actually!! The Christian camp I worked at was having a dance the last week of camp and the theme was 'Dancing thru the Decades.' Well, I have NO dated clothes. BUT at camp we tye-die EVERY week. So I threw on my tye-die for the summer, made some peace sign necklaces out of pipe cleaners, wrote LOVE in pipe cleaners down my pants and threw on a floraly patteren headband! That pic is my attempt at hippy pose. Good times that dance was.
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Post by oap001 on Aug 24, 2006 9:18:17 GMT -5
Well, curveball, looking at your avatar ( ) I have to wonder Funny story actually!! The Christian camp I worked at was having a dance the last week of camp and the theme was 'Dancing thru the Decades.' Well, I have NO dated clothes. BUT at camp we tye-die EVERY week. So I threw on my tye-die for the summer, made some peace sign necklaces out of pipe cleaners, wrote LOVE in pipe cleaners down my pants and threw on a floraly patteren headband! That pic is my attempt at hippy pose. Good times that dance was. Dated clothes...ya right. You look like Timothy Leary!!
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 24, 2006 9:53:55 GMT -5
Well, curveball, looking at your avatar ( ) I have to wonder Funny story actually!! The Christian camp I worked at was having a dance the last week of camp and the theme was 'Dancing thru the Decades.' Well, I have NO dated clothes. BUT at camp we tye-die EVERY week. So I threw on my tye-die for the summer, made some peace sign necklaces out of pipe cleaners, wrote LOVE in pipe cleaners down my pants and threw on a floraly patteren headband! That pic is my attempt at hippy pose. Good times that dance was. haha
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Post by cervyy on Aug 24, 2006 10:45:21 GMT -5
I actually had to look up who Timothy Leary was! Haha. ;D
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Post by oap001 on Aug 24, 2006 11:48:29 GMT -5
Hey, "do what thy will shall be the whole law". Your just like him.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 24, 2006 12:41:46 GMT -5
Neener Neener!
here! here!
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2006 12:56:05 GMT -5
But the point is that God DID make male and female. He DID NOT make anyone homosexual. So, there are supposed to be male and females and that is the way it will stay until the Lord comes back. God does not create homosexuals, he creates males and females who were meant to be bound together in the holy covenant of marriage. One male and one female....a monogamous relationship....
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 24, 2006 13:21:21 GMT -5
But, everyone, what make ye of a hermaphrodite?
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Post by valentine on Aug 24, 2006 14:43:05 GMT -5
But the point is that God DID make male and female. He DID NOT make anyone homosexual. So, there are supposed to be male and females and that is the way it will stay until the Lord comes back. God does not create homosexuals, he creates males and females who were meant to be bound together in the holy covenant of marriage. One male and one female....a monogamous relationship.... Yes, as BT says (are you playing devil's advocate or what, boy?), did god make hermaphrodites? Did he make people who are sterile? People who lack the mental or physical capabilities to have/raise children? If everyone were this way tomorrow, the human race would die out. ZOMG THEY CAN'T BE NATURAL!!! And again, your opinion whether or not god determines orientation. Personally, I don't think god necessarily made anything; this is all for the sake of argument. EDIT: Also, just realized that you totally missed my point. The entire world isn't homosexual, just as the entire world isn't female. You asked, "But what if it WAS." So I turned that around on you, and you responded with, "But but but it's NOT!" Yes, we know. But what it it was? My entire point was that you can't make these sweeping generalizations about how one particular group of people contributes nothing to furthering our world--no one is a self-contained entity, and there are many, many situations in which if all the world were one way, we'd be in trouble. Thing of it is, that's not the way things are. Which is what you responded back with. If you don't like hypothetical arguments, don't make them, kay?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2006 14:46:06 GMT -5
But, everyone, what make ye of a hermaphrodite? To tell you the truth brother...I don't know what to think of one. Maybe God calls them to be celabate (sp.?). It is obviously a birth defect as a cause of the effect sin has on the world in general. The gene pool is effected by sin. But, from what I know (which is little on this subject), the person who is a hermaphrodite is usually biologically more male or female. I have talked to and have watched some documentaries on this. The best thing to do in my mind is to find out biologically if the person is male or female and take the necessary surgical procedures to make them fully that gender. Parents have flipped out and taken hasty measures early on and made mistakes though, so it may take some time and patience...
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2006 14:49:04 GMT -5
And you are missing MY POINT Valentine. The point is that God says homosexuality is SIN. He doesn't say that being male or female is a sin. He doesn't say that being sterile or hermaphrodite is a sin. Homosexuality IS a Sin, so God DOES Not make Homosexuals. He makes male and female. Some may be sterile and some may have genetic predispositions, but God provides the Grace for each person to change and live for Him. As far as hermaphrodites go...see my above post.
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Post by valentine on Aug 24, 2006 14:54:21 GMT -5
But, everyone, what make ye of a hermaphrodite? To tell you the truth brother...I don't know what to think of one. Maybe God calls them to be celabate (sp.?). It is obviously a birth defect as a cause of the effect sin has on the world in general. The gene pool is effected by sin. But, from what I know (which is little on this subject), the person who is a hermaphrodite is usually biologically more male or female. I have talked to and have watched some documentaries on this. The best thing to do in my mind is to find out biologically if the person is male or female and take the necessary surgical procedures to make them fully that gender. Parents have flipped out and taken hasty measures early on and made mistakes though, so it may take some time and patience... But if EVERYONE were celibate tomorrow, the human race would die in about 80-100 years. OH NOES. It must not be natural! This is logical proof that god doesn't want people to be celibate! All you priests, I'm looking at you! You are sinners! SINNERS! REPENT!Okay, I'm done now, I promise, but I really do hope you see how unfounded that argument is. In the case of hermaphrodites, you're pretty much right. I would be very, very against surgical procedures before the child is old enough to make the decision for him/herself--including the decision of whether or not to have surgery in the first place. It should be entirely their choice as to which gender they identify with more. However, you should note that, in most cases, these people cannot procreate, even after surgery. I suggest reading up about the genetic conditions such as Turner syndrome and Klinefelter's if you would like more information. EDIT: In response to Rev K: You know very well that I don't think god said any such thing. Where did he say this, I wonder? Also, I don't remember missing your point. You said that my statement was purely hypothetical in response to my argument against your hypothetical statement. If you wanted to bring in morality, you should have said so.
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Post by oap001 on Aug 24, 2006 15:53:12 GMT -5
Valentine, Don't you think you were misled in college about these things by people who you admire. I'm all for being kind to homosexuals. But you keep equating our disdain for homosexual behavior with hatred. That's not based in fact. Someone told you to think that way.
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