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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 4, 2007 15:00:35 GMT -5
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55961Christian denied permission to join 'gay' parade Charges hypocrisy, saying homosexuals don't 'accept us for who we are' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: June 1, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Bob Unruh © 2007 WorldNetDaily.com Street Preachers Fellowship leader Ruben Israel during earlier protest that said condemned abortionist killer Paul Hill was a murderer, not a Christian A Christian street preacher is charging that the homosexual community in Chicago is guilty of hypocrisy because he was refused permission to march in a June 24 "gay" pride parade. "I see this as nothing but hypocrisy," said Ruben Israel, who has been at the Chicago event for seven previous years, protesting the homosexual lifestyle choice from the sidewalks. This year he sought permission to participate, and was refused. He followed up with a statement making the accusation. "Is this not the same group that demands everyone accept them for who they are? "Is this not the same group that cries discrimination, if not recognized? "Is this not the same people that will not accept us for who we are? "Is this not the same people that demand tolerance? "Is this not the same group that wishes to walk in Macy's parade and [be] allowed in the 'Boy Scouts?" Israel asked. Spokesman Richard Pfeiffer for the Chicago homosexual group confirmed to WND that Israel had been rejected. "We, the gay folk, have the right to exclude them from the parade," Pfeiffer said, adding a U.S. Supreme Court decision gives his group the right to edit the opinions of groups that participate in a sponsored parade. James Elsman, a lawyer working with Israel, said he wasn't so sure the Chicago homosexual group was correct in that interpretation, especially since Israel has been "participating" in the parade with his protests for a number of years already. "I have advised Mr. Israel to sue Chicago Pride," he said. "It is my professional opinion that Christian ministers cannot be barred from the Chicago Gay Parade by the organizers…" "The gays preach 'diversity & inclusion,' and they give unequal protection of the laws to Christians. These preachers want diversity and inclusion, which the gays do not," the lawyer said. Israel told WND he got the wording for his expression of concern from documentation homosexual groups have used in the past to advocate for their demands of endorsement. "We are a group that has a different sexual preference and being that this parade is filled with diversity, we considered ourselves welcomed," he said. "And we were wrong." Israel said when the "gay" community is in a "leadership" position, "they … become dictators and force acceptance of their agenda. I wish to expose this hypocrisy as a double standard for we also love a man, too, and His name is Jesus Christ." Israel told WND that he is just following the standards for making demands for acceptance set up by the "gay" organizations. "Most Christians go to church on Sunday and all they know is the four walls of the church. The real world if these people ever take over will be more of a dictatorship. Freedom of speech no longer exists. Freedom of religion no longer exists," he said. He said the rule of law would be: "You've offended me. I want to shut you down." An earlier San Francisco Chronicle reporter noted while covering the participation by children with homosexual parents in an Easter Egg hunt in Washington that a Christian couple said their beliefs led them to believe children should be raised by a mother and a father. Then the reporter noted in the next paragraph that "gay and lesbian families said they hope to change those attitudes…"
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 4, 2007 15:12:03 GMT -5
Yes, that's them..... That is pretty hypocritical. Are they going at all or have you heard?
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 4, 2007 22:44:08 GMT -5
Chicago - Sunday, June 25. Bright and early.
I will be there with my banner and truthhorn!
Are you thinking of driving up?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 5, 2007 9:10:40 GMT -5
Hmmm... That may be a little far for me. I'm not sure how reliable my vehicle is. I think it's a 10-11 hour drive from here.
Are you guys doing anything different because of the above?
I heard from a brother there is one in Tulsa or Oklahoma City this summer. I may go to that.
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Post by danlirette on Jun 5, 2007 11:20:03 GMT -5
Ruben Israel's "preaching" is abominable; the man is out to harm and destroy homosexuals, not see them saved.... of course he thinks his "preaching" is to see them saved and set free, yet the man's preaching is a sham and a shame. Homosexuals, as all sinners, need Christ, His Blood, His Mercy, His Grace and they need to be told of the Wrath of God; the problem here is that Mr. Israel tells them of God's Wrath without speaking much on God's Mercy and Grace in Christ. Ruben harms the cause of Christ and his preaching is an abomination.
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 5, 2007 12:55:58 GMT -5
While I fully support preaching at any event that embraces sin as a lifestyle choice, I can't really say that I would want Ruben to be a part of any parade I was organizing either.
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oaora
Full Member
Posts: 159
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Post by oaora on Jun 5, 2007 14:46:36 GMT -5
My only comment is that if I were going to be persecuted for my faith somewhere and I looked over my shoulder and saw Ruben Israel. I think I would breath a sigh of relief. And I think Jonah would have said the same thing.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 5, 2007 23:19:16 GMT -5
While Rubens signs may be confused with Calvinism ( ), I really like the guy and appreciate all of his years of faithfulness. He, like Bro Jed, is one of my favorite brothers to fellowship with.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 5, 2007 23:22:47 GMT -5
Hmmm... That may be a little far for me. I'm not sure how reliable my vehicle is. I think it's a 10-11 hour drive from here. Are you guys doing anything different because of the above? I heard from a brother there is one in Tulsa or Oklahoma City this summer. I may go to that. Nothing different that I am aware of. Hey, do what you can to warn these people. God Bless you Josh. There is a website that sort of gives a general overview of these gay pride events. Be sure you are prepared as there is some pretty sick stuff attached to this site. www.gay.com/pride/calendar/I actually found cheap airfare to Indy, and driving from South Florida would be a huge stretch.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 5, 2007 23:27:32 GMT -5
dan, you sure do blow a lot of hot air on this forum. I've really been unimpressed with your demeanor here, let alone your personal vendetta against Bro. Ruben.
I would love to see the look on your face if you ever really met him in person. You would really be surprised, and I say that with all sincerity.
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Post by danlirette on Jun 6, 2007 11:40:42 GMT -5
No doubt, Bullhorn, that Ruben is a "nice guy"...no doubt, also, that his intentions are pure... however, face to face or any other type of setting wouldn't change my view; the man's Ministry is public and what he does at homosexual parades is public.... and I refer to him in the context of homosexual parades only..well, the majority anyhow.
Whether or not you're impressed or otherwise makes no difference; we will all stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to give an account; I'm accountable to God first, family second and my local church third; I'm not in any way to be moved by what anyone states concerning their liking or disliking what I say or do.... I am accountable to no one but those I have mentioned, with the Scripture being the absolute authority.
As for your judging me on having a "personal vendetta" against Mr. Israel, I would exhort you to consider that we, as Brethren, are to judge fruit, not intentions; I have no vendetta against Mr. Israel; I have a love for homosexuals and all who are lost....Mr. Israel is an abomination in how he conducts himself.
I;ve seen his photos, watched him yelling at people, in their faces, with a bullhorn, while they themselves were of a quite atmosphere... I've seen his signs telling homosexuals that God hates them (i know... you guys try to explain that abhor doesn't mean hate"....we all know that...but the homosexual DOESN'T know that!)...I've seen his shameful behaviour during his "preaching"...i've seen the photos he had on his site and the name calling and insulting.
You see, Bullhorn, I know you've preached with him and that your own style resembles his, which makes you youself as much an abomination, and Scripture warns against such men as yourself and Mr. Israel.
You yourself know I am but one in countless who have been warned by the inner witness of the Holy Spirit to stay away from your type of "ministry".
You and all like you are abominable, deceiving and being deceived...taking captive silly women and men, ladden down with sin.
Bullhorn, repent....turn your signs to yourselves and obey the Gospel and repent.
Stop making people twice the sons of hell that they already are with what you call "Biblical Evangelism".
Your "evangelism" is no more Biblical than the religious hypocrites of Jesus' day.
This is the last I'll read of this thread, so if you respond, you're responding to those reading, as I won't be.... You constantly justify your abominable behaviour, and, frankly, I've heard enough, and God will expose you even more so, as He has already to many Brethren in the Body of Christ.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 6, 2007 13:24:14 GMT -5
Baseless accusations stated by you because of your offense towards the truth.
You crack me up, Dan.
One day you call me a hypocrite and heretic, the next day you want me to share all of ROAMUSA's ministry info and multimedia with you. Then the next day I am an abominable heretic again.
I purposely ignored that email from you because you are what's known as a flip-flopper, a double-minded man, and completely unstable. Stop trying to impress everyone with your bright and witty posts and just serve the Lord. Go and do the work the Lord has called you to do. When you get a few years of street preaching under your belt, then come and approach the elders with your concerns and disagreements. You are a novice telling the veteran how to do his job.
If you continue to bite and devour other Christians, you will eventually consume them. Is this what you want?
Psalm 106:40 Proverbs 22:14 Romans 1:18-32
Just a few of the scriptures that come to mind to prove that God does indeed abhor the wicked. The tolerance approach you and most of the "evangelical" church agrees with have produced thousands who claim they are saved and even full of the Holy Spirit, while still practicing homosexuality and other various sins.
We have fruit that proves repentance and brokenness produces a new creation, free from sin, reprobates have been restored to a godly lifestyle of obedience and holy matrimony, even one for over 8 years and in the ministry to boot.
I am saddened, but not surprised, by your meaningless rhetoric. "I'm not going to respond anymore " is a very immature response. I guess you are par for the course.
JK
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Post by alan4jc on Jun 6, 2007 13:56:18 GMT -5
2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Dear brothers, I thought perhaps we could read these verses together and see if there be anything the Lord might speak to us through them.
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 6, 2007 14:14:28 GMT -5
Alan,
Thanks for sharing those scriptures. This only confirmed what is in my heart as a Christian for over 10 years now:
I Peter 2:1-11
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I have confronted Dan a couple of times over the last 2 years, and he always responds with baseless accusations and then says he will no longer respond. It seems that he just desires to be right and to have the last word. I have never personally attacked him or his ministry, but have only desired for him to prove the accusations against myself and many others.
I kind of wish he would have stayed away from this forum when Jesse asked him to leave, but he keeps leaving and coming back, and leaving again. It is this type of instability that breeds personal attacks against people who are dedicated to preaching the truth.
Dan opposes one day, then is friendly the next day. A double-minded man is unstable in ALL of his ways.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 7, 2007 7:49:50 GMT -5
I've never asked anyone to leave in the whole history of this forum. I've banned people before, but never asked anyone to leave.
I know that Dan doesn't like Ruben.
It seems to me that Rubens ministry is very misunderstood.
But it seems everybody on this board doesn't like somebody else on this board. I guess that's just the way it is. There has to be room for disagreements about methods, manner, and message.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 7, 2007 8:13:32 GMT -5
Dan, I guess the only thing that I don't understand about this whole thing is that I have personally seen you feature videos of Ruben preaching on your new website. Why would you do that with someone you consider an "abomination." Same goes for Bullhorn. Seems like you did the same thing with him. Just be consistent brother, that's all. I am in with you, to a certain degree, about Ruben's preaching. I would never hold up a sign that says "God hates you" to lost sinners or even "God abhors you." I just think it gives a misunderstanding of God's character. It is just as bad as holding up a sign that says, "God's love you" or making a Bible with a cover that says "Jesus loves porn stars." It all misrepresents who God is as a whole...
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 7, 2007 21:26:06 GMT -5
I've never asked anyone to leave in the whole history of this forum. I've banned people before, but never asked anyone to leave. I apologize Jesse. You did not ask him to leave specifically, but this is the thread I was referring to: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=sayitall&action=display&thread=1165439909&page=1If you read it, you will understand why I said what I said. Again, my apologies for not being clear. I did not expect to see Dan again after that exchange, but........ I know that Dan doesn't like Ruben. Well, according to the above thread, Dan doesn't favor anyone who disagrees with Dan. If you read through that entire thread, and look at some of the exchanges I have had with Dan over the last year or so, you will see why I am stating what I have in this presesnt thread. It is real easy. Just click my username "bullhornbob" and search the last 168 posts in my profile. It will come up and you can read a few of the very detailed posts I put up, some where I am literally pleading with Dan to scripturally back up all of his accusations. He never responded biblically. Only opinions and slander.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 9, 2007 13:18:35 GMT -5
But it seems everybody on this board doesn't like somebody else on this board. guess that's just the way it is. There has to be room for disagreements about methods, manner, and message. 1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. It seems that divisions sometimes can be helpful, even though no one likes them.
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Post by danlirette on Jun 10, 2007 11:10:00 GMT -5
Dan, I guess the only thing that I don't understand about this whole thing is that I have personally seen you feature videos of Ruben preaching on your new website. Why would you do that with someone you consider an "abomination." Same goes for Bullhorn. Seems like you did the same thing with him. Just be consistent brother, that's all. I am in with you, to a certain degree, about Ruben's preaching. I would never hold up a sign that says "God hates you" to lost sinners or even "God abhors you." I just think it gives a misunderstanding of God's character. It is just as bad as holding up a sign that says, "God's love you" or making a Bible with a cover that says "Jesus loves porn stars." It all misrepresents who God is as a whole... hey Rev! I've not read any other responses on page 1... but I did read this one, Rev, so I thought I'd respond When saying "abominable" I'm referring to Ruby's homosexual and martigras shenanigans.... you know, the loud speakers in people's faces as they talk calmly to him; the signs, the gestures, the yelling at, insulting and name calling. As per teaching, he has some great things! Same with Bully-Bob; he has some great stuff too! I don't make the call or claim these men are not saved.... they're preaching, in the named parades and events, however, is disgusting, is a reproach and is sickening; I'm certainly only one in an ocean who agree with this, as they have no Biblical leg to stand on in these methods. An example would be my own church....it's an Eternal Security church (though they preach Holiness) ...now, would I discard everything because of their corporate doctrine of Eternal Security? Not at all... but I wouldn;t touch the doctrine with a ten foot pole, but their stance on Holiness and Purity and Spirit Filled Living and consistent Discipleship is something I enjoy very much, as it leads to godliness and contentment in living. Same applies here; I don't throw Ruby and Bully-Bob's entire ministries out as "heretical".... only aspects of their Open Air Ministry, which are so disgusting they turn the Gospel into a mockery at these events. Being lone rangers and self proclaimed leaders, I have chosen not to read nor respond to their antics any further, unless I feel it essential to the Faith of the weak or gullible. God forbid that these methods should be used at all. I'd like to these guys take their foolishness to Detroit where Patrick Ersig ministers; they'd be shot dead in a moment, and they know it. Go ahead, guys; take your filthly methods to Detroit, blow your horns in the faces of those Pat ministers to, and see what happens. Your methods are a joke, and you need to repent and turn from these methods which only work in highly policed areas with lots of press, showing the stupidity of what you really do. No cops around in Pat's park; take your methods there, big boys... they'd eat you up in a second. And therein lies my point; your methods don't work with sinners, because they aren't the methods of Scripture. Stay in your fantasy world of "we're doing something eternally impacting!" while millions perish without Christ. The rest of us will be there to clean up your mess after hardening the hearts of the already hardened.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 10, 2007 15:40:07 GMT -5
Dan...I understand brother...I really do. I just wish you would refrain from using words like abominable. In Scripture those words are usually only used when talking about people who partake in depraved sins such as witchcraft or homosexuality. Anyway, thanks for responding...God Bless...
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 13, 2007 11:30:23 GMT -5
Dan...I understand brother...I really do.... So Kerrigan, you actually agree with Dan concerning our (ROAMUSA) preaching and ministry? All of these accusations are ridiculous, and I was disappointed with that last post. I am not surprised, though. They wanted to kill Jesus too, and they succeeded! I am not saying you cannot disagree with us, nor will I be offended if you do. I am just trying to get an idea of how you view us as a whole, as the accusations that he is slinging at us are almost comedic. I am praying God will let us, at some point, minister in full view of all of the critics and they can see for themselves that we are genuinely living to obey God and we are not living in fear of men.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 13, 2007 11:49:04 GMT -5
Hey Bullhorn...if you have a clear conscience before God then what does it matter what I think? I am no man's judge and always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I love my neighbor as myself. I would want someone to give me the benefit of the doubt as well. I am sure that after watching some of my videos or listening to some of my audios, people have many criticisms. I could even possibly be labeled as "shock and awe" at times. Just about everytime I go out preaching I have four reactions: 1)Believers who Like it, 2)Believers and "believers" who don't like it, 3)Unbelievers who like it, 4)Unbelievers who don't like it. I think we can basically all say the same thing happens in our open air preaching experiences. I have never even seen or heard you preach before bullhorn. Here are some things that I have seen done in the open air that I DON'T agree with: 1) Talking too much about gross immorality in detail- masterbation, oral sex, etc. I think this falls under Ephesians 5:12 and if I want to be above reproach and blameless before men (AND GOD), I am not going to even speak of these things. 2) Too much "joking around"- I want people to see the seriousness of their situation and joking around about sin (such as sodomy, etc.) does God disservice. Sin is serious and it is going to send sinners to Hell if they continue in it! God forbid I talk lightly of it! How could they possibly be taking me seriously? One sign that we are doing this too much is when the crowd seems to be listening "just for fun" or "entertainment." Personally I have never had such a crowd. They wouldn't stay around long enough...but I have seen it before 3)Signs that only give half of the message- I wouldn't use a "God Loves You" sign anymore then I would use a "God Hates You" sign. That gives people a misrepresentation of who God really is. I would stick to signs like "Repent", "Be Born Again", "Trust in Jesus", etc. 4)Not enough talk about the Cross and Resurrection- All I hear from some preachers is talk about sin and repentance. Well, that's only half of the message. I rarely ever even hear Jesus' name spoken out of some preachers' mouths and even then it is usually in passing. These are just a few things that I have seen other preachers do. If this list applies to you, Ruben or anyone else, then I guess I would say that I think you or they are doing it "wrong." I never agreed with Dan on his comments in this thread, only said that I understand...meaning I understand his position and where he is coming from. I could understand the position of someone from another religion but not agree with them. Anyway...there's my two cents...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 13, 2007 21:22:57 GMT -5
I think that those 4 points are pretty good.
(Regarding point 1, I don't think we should talk about those things in detail. That doesn't mean we cant talk about them, and rebuke them).
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Post by bullhornbob on Jun 13, 2007 22:38:25 GMT -5
Hey RevK,
I appreciate you explaining yourself. I am sure you have had to on this forum before, so forgive me if I made you repeat yourself.
I agree with your points, although I am not as dogmatic as you may be about some, while I am probably over zealous concerning others.
I think anyone involved in this type of ministry who thinks they have it pegged, or they have arrived, is simply not being realistic. I am not beyond correction from the body, and I want to become more mature and knowledgeable in the things of God just as sincerely as most do.
The kind of mud-slinging DL is doing will sometimes attract others, and I thought you were implying that you agreed with him.
And yes, it does matter to me what other Christians think of our ministry, but it is not the motivating factor. We are motivated by love and obedience to Christ Jesus, but we do not seek to bring reproach to His name.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 15, 2007 13:34:01 GMT -5
I think that I would humbly disagree. Where the Bible is silent, I think we should be silent. I don't need to rebuke masturbation, oral sex, etc. that aren't mentioned in the Bible by name. I trust the Holy Spirit to do His work when it comes to those specific things. If they were to bring it up I would rebuke it. I know that when I was a lost sinner and after I became a Christian, no one had to tell me specifically that those things were wrong. Someone told me that fornication is wrong, but the Holy Spirit convicted me that the rest were wrong. In order to be blameless before men, this is the position I have taken. I don't see any evidence of anyone from the Bible talking about these things...although I am SURE that they were present in those times as well.
Here's a question for everyone...Where do we stop when it comes to naming sins? Are we required to name them all? I mean it's possible that someone listening to us preach is involved in beasteality or some other REALLY depraved sin. Should we name that as well? Does the Bible or God require us to name every sin that the people listening could possibly be involved in, in order for the listeners to know that they need to repent of them? I don't think so. That's why I have taken the stance that where the Bible is silent, I am silent....
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 15, 2007 13:59:23 GMT -5
I don't mention those things a whole lot. I rarely ever do anymore. Once on campus (with team 2) I was preaching on masturbation and a girl burst into tears. She came up to the front of the crowd and said to me, "I've never told anyone this, but I masturbate." As soon as she said that a river of tears came streaming down her face. I told her she could be delivered from it. Then a heckler came and told her not to cry over it, although I don't think anyone heard what she said but me. There is actually a photo of the situation on openairoutreach.com It was at Conway, AR Fall 06-07.
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Post by joem on Jun 15, 2007 14:12:25 GMT -5
Quote:(Regarding point 1, I don't think we should talk about those things in detail. That doesn't mean we cant talk about them, and rebuke them)
I think that I would humbly disagree. Where the Bible is silent, I think we should be silent. I don't need to rebuke masturbation, oral sex, etc. that aren't mentioned in the Bible by name. I trust the Holy Spirit to do His work when it comes to those specific things. If they were to bring it up I would rebuke it. I know that when I was a lost sinner and after I became a Christian, no one had to tell me specifically that those things were wrong. Someone told me that fornication is wrong, but the Holy Spirit convicted me that the rest were wrong. In order to be blameless before men, this is the position I have taken. I don't see any evidence of anyone from the Bible talking about these things...although I am SURE that they were present in those times as well.
Here's a question for everyone...Where do we stop when it comes to naming sins? Are we required to name them all? I mean it's possible that someone listening to us preach is involved in beasteality or some other REALLY depraved sin. Should we name that as well? Does the Bible or God require us to name every sin that the people listening could possibly be involved in, in order for the listeners to know that they need to repent of them? I don't think so. That's why I have taken the stance that where the Bible is silent, I am silent....
I agree wholeheartedly. I don't talk about homosexuality with kids who don't know what in the world that means, yet I will talk about disobeying parents, lying, stealing, etc.. If someone is justifying homosexuality, by all means rebuke them. If not, then you can simply state that sex outside of the confides of marriage as defined in scripture is sin, and that is sufficient. You don't need to describe every form of sexual deviancy known to man in order to explain the 7th Commandment. If you are at a rally put on by homosexuals, obviously that is a form of sexual sin that would need to be addressed directly. Your preaching should be reverent though, as God is holding you accountable for every word. Everything that you say should be appropriate for even the purest ears to hear, otherwise your preaching could be corrupting instead of convicting. Often times the preaching digresses to the level of the hecklers, and God is not exalted as sinners are insulted without being convicted. I live near a small university with a high percentage of lesbian students. If I preach the full council of God, they will listen. If I were to walk on campus with a "God hates lesbians" sign, nobody would listen. Preaching in such a way that you will be heard is not pragmatism, it is evangelism.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jun 20, 2007 7:35:36 GMT -5
Ephesians 5:11-12 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light." How can we reprove sin without making it manifest, that is, to confront it openly? And doesn't the scripture here say that to reprove it, or to make it manifest, is light? As the "light of the world" aren't we to confront all forms of darkness? Didn't Paul do this, reproving and making manifest that which is done in secret? Ro 13:13 - Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Ga 5:21 - and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1Pe 4:3 - For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. My principle is this: If it's a sin, reprove it. If it's sending people to hell, we must rebuke it. If it's rebellion against God, we must publicly preach against it. I don't believe that we should leave any sin unrebuked, if it is a prevelent and relevent sin to our audience. Anyways, here is a message video given by Ruben at the Soapa Conference: www.christclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=12acf12457e4d67635a9
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Post by joem on Jun 20, 2007 10:00:49 GMT -5
Jesse,
I agree that we should rebuke any and every sin and my comments were not in reference to Reuben personally. My point was that a sign saying "God hates f*gs" is not a biblical rebuke, but an unbiblical insult. Jesus told the adulteress to "go and sin no more" not "God hates wh0res". You can rebuke sexual sin without mentioning masturbation, as it was not mentioned specifically in scripture even though sexual sin was addressed often. You can rebuke homosexuality without naming specific perverse acts that homosexuals perform. I wouldn't want my children hearing about the disgusting and explicit acts depraved men, yet they know that homosexuality is sinful and d**ning. My concern is that I sometimes here X-rated preaching that spends more time describing the details of a particular act of sin than it does the condemnation that the sin brings and the means of deliverance that God has provided. I listened to Rubens message and I enjoyed it, and I am not speaking about him personally. Over the years I have found that some brands of "shock and awe" are more about "shocking people" than being in "awe of God".
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 20, 2007 10:40:10 GMT -5
Jesse, I agree that we should rebuke any and every sin and my comments were not in reference to Reuben personally. My point was that a sign saying "God hates f*gs" is not a biblical rebuke, but an unbiblical insult. Jesus told the adulteress to "go and sin no more" not "God hates wh0res". You can rebuke sexual sin without mentioning masturbation, as it was not mentioned specifically in scripture even though sexual sin was addressed often. You can rebuke homosexuality without naming specific perverse acts that homosexuals perform. I wouldn't want my children hearing about the disgusting and explicit acts depraved men, yet they know that homosexuality is sinful and d**ning. My concern is that I sometimes here X-rated preaching that spends more time describing the details of a particular act of sin than it does the condemnation that the sin brings and the means of deliverance that God has provided. I listened to Rubens message and I enjoyed it, and I am not speaking about him personally. Over the years I have found that some brands of "shock and awe" are more about "shocking people" than being in "awe of God". Grace and Peace, Joe Amen Joe...that is exactly what I am trying to say. The open air videos that I confronted Jed Smock on a while back are a great example of what I am talking about...
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