Born Guilty???

[evanschaible]

Are we born guilty of sin? Are we just born with a propensity to sin? Are we born with an aggraveted temptation?

[Jesse Morrell]

I'd say that we are born with an aggraveted temptation.

Sin has entered the world through Adam the bible says. (Notice it doesn't say sin has entered the nature of all humans). But sin has enetered the world through Adam, and so there is more temptation in the world today then there was in the Garden of Eden.

[Rodgers]

Is it inevitable that every human will sin at some point in their life?

[Jesse Morrell]

Is it inevitable that every human will sin at some point in their life?

The bible teaches that sinners do sin.

Ro 3:12 - They [sinners] are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The bible teaches that we all have sinned.

Ro 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

But the bible teaches that nobody ever had to sin.

1Co 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I'd say that it's possible to go your whole life and never sin. But I'd say that it's not probable in our world. You have the world, the flesh, and the devil all against you.

But a more important issue is what do you do if you sin. Of coarse, get out of it!

[Rodgers]

Sure, what you said is correct and great. But I am asking you to think about my question on a deeper level. Do not let this question take away from my original question, Is it inevitable that every human will sin at some point in their life?

If it were possible for us to go through this life and never sin, why did Paul say, For all have sinned and fallen short? Do you think the verse about temptation is given to those who have been re-born and is not a general admonition to every person in the world?

[Jesse Morrell]

Paul said all have sin. Paul never said all have to sin.

It's possible to live without sin from birth. It's just not probable.

[jackjackson]

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13

Consider what God's Word has to say here.

1) Sin was in the world according to verse 15, before the law.

2) But no one was accountable to it, or it was not imputed, because the law was not revealed yet.

3) Why? Because where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Eve had already coveted the fruit (a sin), desired to be like God (coveted which is a sin), and was already on her way to picking and eating the fruit (also a sin or disobedience). Then Adam ate too, and only then did both their eyes open to the "knowledge of the law".

Before they ate and had the knowledge (full understanding) of good and evil; even if they fell short of God's glory (sin), it would not have counted against them, because there was no law.

No law, no transgression. I used the analogy of a speed limit and the autobaun. If we knew that the speed limit was going to 80 when it went into effect, going 90 is not a transgression until the speed limit signs go up. One day going 90 is fine, the next it is a crime.

Adam and Eve, eating of the tree, reulted in the speed limits signs going up. Now we all are subject to 80, when we become accountable to knowing (having understanding) that what we do is wrong (having a true knowledge of good and evil).

This is why I believe, we are under a law, which we break, even as little children (seen very clearly as selfishness); but although sin is evidence; it is not imputed to a child, until they are able to understand. The same consciences that God gave us for right and wrong, as the same ones that lead men to not charge children as adults.

What that age of accountability is, is God's call. We are born able to sin, and do shortly afterwards, often, but I do not believe it is imputed to us until we reach an age of accountability.

Jack

[Brother Adiel]

admin said:

1Co 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Is this talking to believers who walk in the Spirit or is this talking to even the heathen?

[Jesse Morrell]

It's talking to believers, but my understanding is that it applies to all people. There are many scriptures that are in the Epistles, written to believers, that also apply to unbelievers.

God's commandments are not greivous. God only commands the possible. There is not a single command given by God which is impossible for any man to keep. God expects men to keep His commandments because men are capable of keeping His commandments.

I would argue that without "ability" it's impossible to have "responsibility" or "accountability". Ability is the foundation for both.

[sjn]

admin said:

It's possible to live without sin from birth. It's just not probable.

Jesse,

Does this mean that you believe that everyone is born in the same condition that Adam and Eve were created in? (With the exception of the perfect enviornment)

Steve

[Jesse Morrell]

I do not believe in a sinful nature, or original sin, that is inflicted upon all of us by Adam.

I guess you could say that I believe people are born "neutral" until they make their own choices.

Here is something I am pondering:

Adam and Eve were without "open eyes" until they ate from the tree. But I believe the entire human race does have those "open eyes" which Adam and Eve recieved after the tree.

[sjn]

So do you believe that it is theoretically possible that a person can be accepted into Heaven because of their righteousness? If that person lived w/o sin from birth?

Steve

[Jesse Morrell]

Luke 10:28 - "And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." - Jesus Christ

Only those who sin are in need of a Savior.

[Jesse Morrell]

But sin or no sin, all men must take Jesus Christ as their Lord. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Men are either for Him or against Him. So all men, sin or no sin, must be for Christ and under His Lordship.

[jackjackson]

Jesse:

This is the way I see it also, as per what I wrote. Charles Finney also held a very similar view.

Jack

[jackjackson]

Think about it. If we were born with the disease of sin (original sin), we would all be justified in that we could do no other.

Beside, have you ever heard anyone ask God to forgive them for and repent from the sin of Adam?

Our course not, everyone's conscience knows who to blame, themself!

Jack

[biblethumper]

I do not believe we are BORN GUILTY for Adam's sin, but, as Paul teaches the Romans, death has passed to all men BECAUSE OF Adam; not life.

Paul teaches that man's sinful ways are proof that man is in death and not in life and is condemned already...man doesn't sin and then die; on the contrary, paul says man IS dead and thus sins:

Romans 5:11-13

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[biblethumper]

here's a brief article I wrote which was inspired by former posts here:

Original Sin?

By Dan Lirette

JKWilliamsSr Said:First in Romans 3:23 it says that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" That right there states that every single person have sinned. It does not single any group out. "ALL" is inclusive to every human being, Man, Woman and Child.

DAN'S RESPONSE: Correct...all HAVE sinned; yet let us note that the "all" referred to here does not include babies, thus it is NOT inclusive of those who are not under the law, and Paul states clearly that without the law there is no knowledge of sin, and babies are not under law and are thus alive; hence, all have sinned in the sphere of knowledge....to state a baby is a sinner would directly contradict Paul's statement in Romans 7 verse 9:

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Here we see Paul, not "dead in tresspasses in sin" but alive as there was no law to convict him of sin, thereby causing spiritual death.

JKWilliamsSr Said: In Psalm 51, David is repenting for his sins and if you look at verse 5 you will see that it he is talking about being conceived in Sin, it states: "Behold, I was brought fourth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me"

DAN'S RESPONSE: To place this verse as teaching the Doctrine of Original Sin would do great injustice to several passages which would clearly contradict your view.

For instance:

“The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, p. 196).

JKWilliamsSr Said: Now when you think about that you can also notice how the conception of Jesus was not done in a manner consistent with our human births. That also signifies how we are born in sin becuase the only sinless man to walk the earth was not conceived in our manner.

JKWilliamsSr Said: Another thing to think about. If we are not born into sin why did we need Jesus to come pay the price?

DAN'S RESPONSE: Jesus did not pay for "Original" sin... He paid for MY sin which I MYSELF comitted; so I believe.

DAN'S RESPONSE: As for David being conceived in sin, could such an interpretation stand in light of the exegetical contextual interpretation of the Word of God?

DAN'S RESPONSE: Scripture clearly states that sin is NOT inherited:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God

Also, Scripture states that we become sinners in our YOUTH, not out infancy:

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Jeremiah 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

In conclusion:

Here is what Wayne Jackson states concerning verse 5 of Psalm 51:

Others have suggested that David alludes to an incident in his ancestral lineage, an adulterous affair (Gen. 3Cool, whereby he was considered ceremonially defiled because he was of the 10th generation of that unlawful intercourse (Deut. 23:2). This is probably a rather remote possibility.

The same author notes:

In a similarly poetic section, for example, Job, in denying that he had neglected his benevolent responsibilities, affirmed that he had cared for the orphan and the widow from his mother’s womb! Surely, no one believes that on day one of Job’s existence that he was out ministering to the needy! In fact, the Hebrew parallelism of this verse (Job 31:1Cool, clearly indicates that the word “womb” is used in the sense of “youth.”

In conclusion, how do you reconcile your Original Sin doctrine, based on one verse, with what I have herein stated?

I look forward to your response, brother.

May God continue to use you as you continue to serve Him.

Blessings in Yeshua,

In Christ,

Dan

[jackjackson]

Thumper said: I do not believe we are BORN GUILTY for Adam's sin, but, as Paul teaches the Romans, death has passed to all men BECAUSE OF Adam; not life.

Adam caused the law to be applied to all of us, when it was not prior to them eating from the tree. This is how his sin passed death, because now all under the law.

Jack

[sjn]

When the Scripture speaks of the "sinful nature" (NIV) or "flesh" (KJV) what is it referring to?

Here's a good passage:

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. NIV Gal 5:16-17

"16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." KJV Gal 5:16-17

Steve

[Kerrigan]

We are definitely not born guilty, but I definitely believe...through Scripture (like the ones Steve mentioned) and through experience (my children), that we are born with a sinful nature and a propensity to sin. The lost sinner sins because he is a sinner. But, through the message of the Gospel, which is the Power of God unto Salvation...they can become Born Again, break the chains of sin and live a Holy life before God.

[biblethumper]

revk said:

We are definitely not born guilty, but I definitely believe...through Scripture (like the ones Steve mentioned) and through experience (my children), that we are born with a sinful nature and a propensity to sin. The lost sinner sins because he is a sinner. But, through the message of the Gospel, which is the Power of God unto Salvation...they can become Born Again, break the chains of sin and live a Holy life before God.

Amen brother!

[Rodgers]

This thread has sparked my interest. A few points I am considering.

That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of spirit is spirit. One thing I admire about the protestant reformation is the emphasis on being born again. If it were possible for us to live sinless from birth the requirement to be born again would be negated. My son is born of my flesh and my wife's. He has not been born of the spirit yet. He is flesh. He lives according to his flesh not in a sinfully sense but in the sense that the only thing he is concerned about is where he will get his next meal. I have also seen him try and assert his OWN will. And he is only 4 months old.

Rom 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I like the wording of the KJV here because it says death reigned. The law of sin and death can be compared to a kingdom. Just the opposite of the Kingdom of God. As we walk through this world it is almost a paradox of sorts. The Kingdom of God is at hand, but the death still reigns in the hearts of men because of what Adam did. Death will have first dominion in the flesh of men. That is the right that the devil has until Christ comes again in glory. Jesus has the right to persuade us to repent because of what he did on the Cross. The devil has certain rights in this whole deal. I believe those rights include rule over the flesh of men. That is why we can not even see the Kingdom until we are re-born of the Spirit.

Side Note: I do not necessarily believe in Original Sin they way Catholics do. I do not believe we are born guilty. However, as a parent and a school teacher of young children sometimes it seems to be the only viable explanation!

[Rodgers]

revk said:

We are definitely not born guilty, but I definitely believe...through Scripture (like the ones Steve mentioned) and through experience (my children)

Amen! Jesse I think your views may change when you have children. Not that what you say is not true. This topic has sparked my interest. I am going to do a lot of studying on this issue the next few weeks. However, looking at my son grow up and how my young(6 year old) students act, Pelagius' views simply do not hold water in the sense that it seems like there is definitely more here to this issue than meets the eyes.

Praise God that we can be transformed into the Kingdom of Hos light because of what Jesus did for us and the world on the Cross. I pray that my son will follow in his father footsteps by taking up HIS cross and denying the desires of his sinful nature! Worthy is the Lamb to be Praised!

[Therese]

I don't think newborn babies die and burn in hell when they die. My 3rd (out of 4 grandkids) died 11 hours after birth. That little newborn did not sin.
Now for my question. The people born between Adam and Moses, did they sin and if so how did they know with out the law to show them their sins like it did for me.?
Thanks
Therese Ramos (TRacts) my initial plus "acts"

[evanschaible]

Where is the scriptural proof for Psalm 51:5 meaning that David was a product of adultery?

[Josh Parsley]

Does being born "into" sin mean that we are born "with" sin? Could it be that when we are born "in" sin something like being born "in" water? Could it be something like when you are born you are born "in sin." Would a paralell be like walking "in" a room? When you walk in a room you are completely compassed with the effects of the room.

Just a thought.. what do you guys think?

[Rodgers]

Was David born in an ungodly house? I do not think so. From what we find in 1 Sam, Jesse ran a godly household. At least it never says he was a sinner and ran a sinful house.

[Rodgers]

biblethumper said:

I do not believe we are BORN GUILTY for Adam's sin, but, as Paul teaches the Romans, death has passed to all men BECAUSE OF Adam; not life.

Paul teaches that man's sinful ways are proof that man is in death and not in life and is condemned already...man doesn't sin and then die; on the contrary, paul says man IS dead and thus sins

Yes, we sin because we are dead.

[Jesse Morrell]

When King David said that he was birthed in inquity, he never said anything about Adam, anything about the fall, anything about his nature, or anything about the whole world. He simply was speaking about himself.

Yes, we sin because we are dead.

I'd say a sinner is dead because he sins, not that he sins because he is dead.

And he's dead in his will, not in his ability. Likewise when it says a Christian is dead to sin. He is dead in his will, not in his ability.

Jesse:

This is the way I see it also, as per what I wrote. Charles Finney also held a very similar view.

Jack

More and more I believe I subscribe mostly to Finneys theology more then any other. (that is not to say Finney is my source of theology. The bible is. But I seem to agree with Finneys theology)

When the Scripture speaks of the "sinful nature" (NIV) or "flesh" (KJV) what is it referring to?

The KJV never talks about the "sin nature". But it does talk about the flesh. And what people call the "sin nature" is what I simply call the "natural flesh".

My natural flesh has desires and appetites, which if left uncontrolled by the Spirit of God, would lead to sin.

My sexual desires are normal and natural, and even Adam had them before his fall. But if I leave these desires uncontrolled by morals, uncontrolled by the Spirit of God, then I would be committing immorality.

So what people call the "sin nature" I simply call the "natural flesh" that Adam himself had before his fall.

I do not believe we are BORN GUILTY for Adam's sin, but, as Paul teaches the Romans, death has passed to all men BECAUSE OF Adam;

Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

I believe this says that sin entered the world through Adam , but that death passed upon all men for their own sin, "for that all have sinned".

Suppose I said, "drugs entered the community through this one drug-head." Does that mean that everyone in the community is addicted to drugs? No. It just means that it entered the community through one, and is now more easily accessable to all.

And if I said, "so all the community is addicted to drugs, because they themselves took the drugs". Does that mean that the consequence upon all is dependant upon the actions of only the one, or upon the actions of each individual themselves?

Each man is responsible for his own sin. And each man is punished for his own sin.

And is that not what God Himself declared when others said the contrary?

Ezekiel 18:1-9

"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."

[if all men inherited original sin, then they would have occasion to use this proverb in Israel.]

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD."