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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 14, 2006 0:07:55 GMT -5
RevK, Ro 1:24 - Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, I don't know Jesse. When I read that passage as a whole...and I do it frequently because I use it in O/A frequently...it seems to be talking about someone who has a reporbate mind, not a sinful nature. It also seems to be specifically talking about homosexuals. They start out in idolatry and then naturally move to being homosexuals (in an unnatural way ;D). Just look at Romans 1:28, "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting." |
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Post by tbxi on Nov 14, 2006 0:08:57 GMT -5
So David was the only person who can be said to have been "conceived in sin", i.e. sinful from conception? Or is this because he was a product of adultery?
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Post by evanschaible on Nov 14, 2006 0:09:09 GMT -5
So is original sin a propensity or a guilt?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 14, 2006 0:09:11 GMT -5
tbxi,
God gives them over to their own desires. He doesn't cause them to do anything contrary to their own will in those verses.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 14, 2006 0:12:17 GMT -5
The family line of David and his brothers show different mothers.
I believe it's possible David was birthed in inquity, adultery, which is why he was not shown to Samuel.
Certainly Jesse ran a righteous home. But maybe not always. Many of us are righteous now, but were not always.
But certainly the Psalm there cannot be applied to universal original sin. That is assuming MUCH because it doesn't mention Adam, the fall, the whole world, or the birth of all.
It's assuming much more to apply that verse to original sin then it is to apply it to adultery.
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Post by tbxi on Nov 14, 2006 0:12:44 GMT -5
tbxi, God gives them over to their own desires. He doesn't cause them to do anything contrary to their own will in those verses. As you quoted, "Eph 4:19 - "have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." (Adam did not give them over. They gave themselves over." Romans 1:25-26: In both passages the sinners are being "given over". Romans declares they are given over by God. Ephesians declares they are giving themselves over as well. This does not conflict with the compatibilist-determinist view of the wills of God and men. It does, however, conflict with the view that it is only men who are giving themselves over, and God's just going along with their plan. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. |
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Post by tbxi on Nov 14, 2006 0:14:27 GMT -5
The family line of David and his brothers show different mothers. I believe it's possible David was birthed in inquity, adultery, which is why he was not shown to Samuel. Certainly Jesse ran a righteous home. But maybe not always. Many of us are righteous now, but were not always. But certainly the Psalm there cannot be applied to universal original sin. That is assuming MUCH because it doesn't mention Adam, the fall, the whole world, or the birth of all. It's assuming much more to apply that verse to original sin then it is to apply it to adultery. I actually agree with you, it's a pretty weak prooftext for total depravity... I don't think the proverbial parts of the OT are the best for building systematic theology... hehe... but it's not like T is just there, anyhow... No worries here. I do think it is an affirmation of original sin, but I won't go to the wall for that right now, as I don't know about the adultery thing. |
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 14, 2006 0:15:14 GMT -5
Eph 4:19 - "have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." (Adam did not give them over. They gave themselves over. Let's look at this verse in context, Ephesians 4:17-18: "This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleaness with greediness." Also, in the Greek, "darkened" and "alienated" are passive, meaning it was done to them, not something they did to themselves. It would have to be active for them to do it to themselves. |
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 14, 2006 0:17:12 GMT -5
What about when one is "made" a deacon. Is that passive or active?
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 14, 2006 0:18:34 GMT -5
Original Sin IS NOT guilt in my mind. It is only a propensity which fallen human beings have no or very little power to resist. And once they give in to sin once it becomes harder and harder to resist, therefore eventually making the lost sinner a slave to sin. Something which can only be broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit when it comes to live in the Born Again person and cause them to walk in newness of life...
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 14, 2006 0:19:32 GMT -5
What about when one is "made" a deacon. Is that passive or active? Are you talking about in 1 Timothy? |
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Post by Josh Parsley on Nov 14, 2006 19:27:12 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone could think that sin is physical. I know some do. If it is physical then when you are regenerated you are physically changed. Either that or we are not saved from sin until we die.
It is not original guilt. No way. Babies don't burn in hell. David even alluded to this if someone disagrees.
I tend to believe it is a spiritual condition (propensity) passed on.
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Post by jackjackson on Nov 15, 2006 0:49:35 GMT -5
Adam and Eve, and all of us have selfish desires, which makes us all easy targets for Satan. The fact we all have this, even Adam and Eve before they ate the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, make us capable to sin, but does not make us unable to not sin.
Go back to the verse that sin was in the world before the law. It just was accounted as sin until they ate and law was activated.
Some used the following verses:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
They refer to Psalm 14: Note that verse 1 sets the table for who David is talking about "fools", not those who know God; therefore, he is saying no fools are righteous, no not one. Fools don't understand and don't seek God.
We are born with a wicked heart, yet it is not an excuse to not obey the law on our heart and our conscience. We all have desires to sin, but also the ability to say no to sin. Just because we can say no, doesn't mean any will always say no; nor does the fact we have a desire to give in to our selfish desires mean we will always give in to them.
Ultimately we are creatures with free will, and responsible for our actions, otherwise we would all be with excuse, not without excuse.
Jack
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 15, 2006 1:04:31 GMT -5
Jesse, isn't scripture clear that all have sinned and fall short, and since Gods word endures forever and is from everlasting to everlasting that would include future generations and all persons in the past.
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Post by Rodgers on Nov 15, 2006 18:39:58 GMT -5
The anti-sinful nature people( or person, Jesse) have made some good points. However, when I read things like this verse it shows me that there is a bigger problem with mankind than simply making wrong choices.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It says we were by nature objects of wrath. I believe that there has to more solidarity to God's judgment on Adam's race than what has been portrayed on this board.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Seth was not after the image of God but the image of Adam.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
How this all plays in with personal choice and responsibility, I am not sure. In fact my pray is that God would give us all understanding.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 14:14:14 GMT -5
I did a word search in the KJV for the word "nature" and found that not once does it ever blame sin on our nature.
But I see that the New Testament always blames sin upon the will.
Sin is a will problem, not a nature problem.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 15:22:23 GMT -5
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
"many were made sinners" it seems to me they were sinners apart from any action of their own according to this statement. Adams disobedience made men sinners.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 15:42:24 GMT -5
If you use Romans 5 :18 unconditionally, to say all men deserve condemnation unconditionally, why not also use it unconditionally on the second half to say all men will be justified unconditionally?
In context of the whole bible, both condemnation and justification are conditionally applied. Those who sin deserve condemnation. Those who come to Christ will be justified. These are the conditions other verses describe.
It is theological bias to apply the first half universally but the second half conditionally. It's a dangerous thing to try to make the scriptures fit into your precommitted theology. Let's make sure we don't do that.
Both parts of Romans 5:18 must be applied conditionally, but CANNOT be applied universally, without falling into universalism. If you believe in universal original sin because of this verse, you must also have to accept universal justification according to this verse.
Regarding being "made sinners" that does not automaticly mean apart from ones will. You can be "made" a deacon, but that is not apart from your will. Being "made" is still dependant upon the will.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 15:52:33 GMT -5
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Is this scripture true for all born again Christians?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 15:55:25 GMT -5
First, please state an acceptance or a rebuttle to my post about Romans 5:18 before moving on to another scripture.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:02:48 GMT -5
many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
This is a true statement that because of Adams disobedience sin reigned in the world and none were righteous not one. And because of Christs obedience righteousness entered the world and many will be made righteous.
It says that one is not like the other.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:03:51 GMT -5
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Is this scripture true for all born again Christians?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 16:07:14 GMT -5
How can you universally apply original sin with that scripture, but not universally apply justification?
How can you unconditionally apply being "made a sinner" but not unconditionally apply being "made righteous"?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:10:40 GMT -5
because the condition for being a sinner is being born and the condition for being righteous is being born again.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:12:17 GMT -5
How about my question?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 16:14:20 GMT -5
Where does it say that the condition for being a sinner is being born? Where does the bible ever say "humans are born sinners". Not a single verse says it.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:20:54 GMT -5
There are alot of things in scripture that are implied. How does Paul say we,we,we all through Romans and not even know the people he is talking to? He must have been convinced that all were sinners there even without knowing each of them personaly. How could he say we otherwise?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 16:23:40 GMT -5
Humans being born sinners is not implied anywhere in scripture.
Being born a sinner is an assumption, which helps a certain theological system, and saying the scriptures imply it is also an assumption.
I don't stand on assumptions. I stand on the scriptures.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 13, 2006 16:27:03 GMT -5
Okay well how about my questions now? We can disagree, I'm just curious about your answers to them.  |
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 13, 2006 16:30:24 GMT -5
Yes.
We have been crucified with Christ, spiritually. Our body is dead, spiritually. So we are freed from sin, spiritually. Since sin is spiritual, not physical.
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