Born Guilty???

[alan4jc]

So then this statement says that all christians were sinners. The old man, Paul is implying without knowledge of each persons life individualy. He says we, our alot how can he assume their arent any there that have yet to sin?

[Jesse Morrell]

Nobody is debating that we were sinners before conversion.

The debate is over why we were sinners.

I say people are sinners because they corrupt themselves. They choose darkness over the light.

Others say people are sinners because Adam sinned, and we were in his physical loins when he did it. So when we are born, we are physically born sinners.

[alan4jc]

I would agree that we were born sinners and Paul seems to also or else he is making alot of assumptions.

[Jesse Morrell]

That verse doesn't say we were born sinners, it says we were sinners.

Assumptions are very dangerous.

The bible says Pilate was a Roman Governor. But it would be a false assumption for me to say that he was born a Roman Governor.

[alan4jc]

How did Paul know there werent any who hadnt sinned yet? Since the letter was written to people he didn't know?

[Jesse Morrell]

Paul was writing to those who had been "converted". Those who are converted are those who have left their sin.

The debate again isn't over if men sin, but why men sin.

[Jesse Morrell]

Also, it's an assumption to say it was a letter written to people that he didn't know. My understanding is that Paul wrote Romans to a Church that he started, as most, if not all of his letters were.

[sjn]

Jesse,

I have some questions based on this passage:

"12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Romans 5:12-14 ESV

If "sin is not counted where there is no law", then why did "death reign from Adam to Moses"? Paul says that "death spread to all men because all sinned". How could all sin without a law to transgress? I think Paul answers the question in the next verse when he says that "But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." (15)

Paul says that many died through one man's trespass.


Steve

[alan4jc]

admin said:

Also, it's an assumption to say it was a letter written to people that he didn't know. My understanding is that Paul wrote Romans to a Church that he started, as most, if not all of his letters were.

Based on what I know, Paul did not start the church in Rome. He wrote the letter from Corinth and only visited Rome as a prisoner and was later martyred there. He never visited the church tere though he did have mutual friends who had traveled there.

[Jesse Morrell]

Jesse,

I have some questions based on this passage:

Ok.

"12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

I'd like to point out that this verse says sin came into the world through Adam. It does not say that sin entered each persons nature because of Adam.

Just as drugs come "into the community" through a drug dealer, likewise "sin came into the world through" Adam. But just like one is not guilty of buying drugs, unless they actually buy the drugs, and one does not suffer the negative consequences of drugs unless they do drugs, likewise man suffers spiritual death "because all sinned". It's when they partake of what is offered that they suffer the negative consequence.

Romans 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. KING JAMES VERSION


If "sin is not counted where there is no law", then why did "death reign from Adam to Moses"? Paul says that "death spread to all men because all sinned". How could all sin without a law to transgress?

My understanding is that there was a Law communicated through mens consciences, even during the time between Adam and Moses, before the Two Tablets. Remember Sodom and Gommorrah took place between those times. And their punishment was certainly imputed! The moral conscience of man is an inescapable revelation given to all men, from all ages.

How could all sin without a law to transgress? I think Paul already said, they couldn't!

What is your take on it?

[sjn]

I agree that it does not say that sin entered each persons nature through Adam.

What about verse 15

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." KJV

In your view how does "through the offence of one many be dead" make sense? Doesn't this mean that through the sin of Adam many died?

[Jesse Morrell]

Also, remember we are told that Lot was righteous. But lot lived between Adam and Moses.

[Kerrigan]

Glad you started this thread back up Jesse. I felt it was unfinished. Here is a post I believe you never fully responded to. Can you respond to the Scripture I brought out? Thanks...

admin said:

Eph 4:19 - "have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." (Adam did not give them over. They gave themselves over.

Let's look at this verse in context, Ephesians 4:17-18: "This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleaness with greediness."

Also, in the Greek, "darkened" and "alienated" are passive, meaning it was done to them, not something they did to themselves. It would have to be active for them to do it to themselves.

[Kerrigan]

Also, if the flesh or sin nature, which ever we want to call it, is not imputed to us, then when do we get it? Is it the first time we sin? Is it the first time we sin and know that it is wrong (ie. the "age of accountability")? Can this way of thinking be backed up by Scripture. In other words, where does Scripture say that we inflict the "flesh" upon ourselves? Why do my children sin? They are 3 and 1 years old. Not that I am basing my theology upon experience as opposed to Scripture, but that has to be taken into account.

[alan4jc]

2 Corinthians 5:21 Whats the big deal about Jesus being born the sinless one if we were all sinless ones at one time?

[Jesse Morrell]

In your view how does "through the offence of one many be dead" make sense? Doesn't this mean that through the sin of Adam many died?

I see the relation between us and Adam as the relation between a drug dealer and drug addicts.

I am a former drug dealer. People on campus sometimes say, "how many lives have you ruined?" And they put other peoples drug use upon me. And partly, I am to blame.

Likewise, because of Adams offense, many die. Just as many die because of the crime of one drug dealer. But the responsibility is still upon the individual who does the drugs, just like the responsibility is still upon the person that chooses sin.

The dealer is guilty of making the "availability", and therefore can be guilty of it's consequences upon others.

[Jesse Morrell]

Some ask, "if we don't have a sinful nature, why do we sin?" And they claim that because we sin, it's proof that we have a sinful nature.

But was Adam created with a sinful nature? No! But he sinned! Why? Because he wanted to! Sin is the result of a bad will, not a bad nature.

Revk, Eph 4:19 says that God gave them over, because they first corrupted themselves. It doesn't say that God gave them over, and so they corrupted themselves.

But that was only one of the MANY scriptures I listed which says that man corrupts himself. The bible time and time again says each man is responsible for his own sin, that each person is responsible for their own corruption.

[alan4jc]

Just because that is certainly true of us former drug dealers that doesn't apply to the Bible.


2 Corinthians 5:21 Whats the big deal about Jesus being born the sinless one if we were all sinless ones at one time?

[alan4jc]

Adam and Jesus were alike.....both born sinless....one chose disobedience and the other obedience.

[Jesse Morrell]

2 Corinthians 5:21 says Christ never sinned. It says "who knew no sin". It doesn't mention his birth at all.

Yes, Christ was born without sin. Just as all children are born without sin. He was born of a virgin, not so he wouldn't have original sin, but because God was his father.

But what makes Christ unique is that He didn't corrupt himself, as everyone else has. And that is what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says. It doesn't say he was born without sin, though he was, but it says that Christ never sinned, which is unique.

[Jesse Morrell]

Well, I'll give you guys a break because my wife is calling me home.

But take this time to see if you can actually find a verse that says "humans are born with a sinful nature because of Adams sin". That's my challenge. Take tonight to find that scripture...because it doesn't exist.

[alan4jc]

Jesse if He knew no sin wouldn't that imply since birth? Or are we never allowed to look at implications?

[Kerrigan]

admin said:

Well, I'll give you guys a break because my wife is calling me home.

;D ;D ;D ;D

[sjn]

admin said:

In your view how does "through the offence of one many be dead" make sense? Doesn't this mean that through the sin of Adam many died?

I see the relation between us and Adam as the relation between a drug dealer and drug addicts.

I am a former drug dealer. People on campus sometimes say, "how many lives have you ruined?" And they put other peoples drug use upon me. And partly, I am to blame.

Likewise, because of Adams offense, many die. Just as many die because of the crime of one drug dealer. But the responsibility is still upon the individual who does the drugs, just like the responsibility is still upon the person that chooses sin.

The dealer is guilty of making the "availability", and therefore can be guilty of it's consequences upon others.

Thanks for the explanation.

What is clear is that the Scripture is attributing the death of many here to the offence of Adam. The drug dealer can rightly be held somewhat responsible for the drug addicts sin, but how is Adam's offence at all responsible for the death of many? Other than Eve no one was alive when Adam sinned. How is his sin responsible at all for the death of many?

[Jesse Morrell]

I drove all the way home, but forgot something at the computer office, so I came back to get it.

I checked real quick to see some responses, here's my response.

Alan,

Yes Christ was sinless from birth. But the scripture you asked about was about his entire life, not merely his birth. So your question, "what makes Christ unique", my answer is his sinless life was unique, his virgin birth was unique, but being born without sin was not unique. No one is born with either physical or spiritual sin because of Adam. All are born with a clean slate, and are held accountable "according to THEIR works" not Adams works.

SJN,

"How is his sin responsible at all for the death of many?"

For the same reason a crack dealer is responsible for the death of a crack head.

Adam brought sin into the world. You could call this aggrivated temptation, it's easier for us to sin then it was for Adam. It was easier for Adam to be holy then it is for us. There was no sin in the Garden of Eden. But now, there is lots of sin in this world. And it originated with Adam. Adam was the one that brought the sin into the world, and now people in the world choose to partake of that sin which entered the world. Just as a drug dealer brings drugs into the community, and people in the community choose to partake of those drugs.

But now I need to get home to my wife.

But when I return, I'd like to see a scripture that says our nature is sinful from birth because of Adams sin, or I'd like us all to reject such a doctrine as unscriptural.

[Kerrigan]

I'm off to teach Evangelism at Church, but I will try to get to this later. I would like this addressed though:

If the flesh or sin nature, which ever we want to call it, is not imputed to us, then when do we get it? Is it the first time we sin? Is it the first time we sin and know that it is wrong (ie. the "age of accountability")? Can this way of thinking be backed up by Scripture. In other words, where does Scripture say that we inflict the "flesh" upon ourselves? Why do my children sin? They are 3 and 1 years old. Not that I am basing my theology upon experience as opposed to Scripture, but that has to be taken into account.

[Jesse Morrell]

Currently, I don't believe sin is a problem of the "nature" at all, but is entirely a problem of the will.

If sin were a "nature" problem, which originated at the fall, why did Adam sin to create the fall to begin with? If he didn't have a sinful nature, why did Adam sin?

If all are born with the same nature, why did Cain kill Abel? They were two brothers, born with the same nature, yet Abel was righteous and Cain was evil. Why?

Children sin for the same reason Adam sinned, for the same reason Cain sinned, for the same reason all men sin, because of a bad will! Not a bad nature.

[Kerrigan]

Brother, you better get home before you get in trouble with your wife! ;D

[Josh Parsley]

admin said:

2 Corinthians 5:21 says Christ never sinned. It says "who knew no sin". It doesn't mention his birth at all.

Yes, Christ was born without sin. Just as all children are born without sin. He was born of a virgin, not so he wouldn't have original sin, but because God was his father.

But what makes Christ unique is that He didn't corrupt himself, as everyone else has. And that is what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says. It doesn't say he was born without sin, though he was, but it says that Christ never sinned, which is unique.

The Bible is plain that Christ chose not to sin.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

[alan4jc]

If Christ never sinned He therefore had to be born without sin. Scripture points this out and makes a big deal about it. Why would His virgin, holy birth be special if we were all born sinless?