Born Guilty???

[Miles Lewis]

alan4jc said:

If Christ never sinned He therefore had to be born without sin. Scripture points this out and makes a big deal about it. Why would His virgin, holy birth be special if we were all born sinless?

Your reasoning is based on the presupposition that people are born sinners. It is pretty much a logical falacy.

Now currently I can neither prove nor disprove original sin, though I currently believe that we are not born guilty of commiting crimes, neither does that original crime if we were to be born with it CAUSE us to sin. I don't know exactly why everyone sins, but I do know that scripture says that they do.

[alan4jc]

Gen. 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


Gen. 6:5 The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Every inclination of his heart from childhood....were getting close to birth...I'll keep looking

[Josh Parsley]

I'm not sure, but I think you may be missing the heart of the debate Alan. Please forgive me if I am wrong.

No one is arguing that people are sinful, even from an early age. The question is who is to blame for the sin? What is the root cause? Adam or my sole decision?

Now currently I can neither prove nor disprove original sin, though I currently believe that we are not born guilty of commiting crimes, neither does that original crime if we were to be born with it CAUSE us to sin. I don't know exactly why everyone sins, but I do know that scripture says that they do.

That's the exact same ground I'm on at the moment.

[alan4jc]

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

This here says their father is the devil...this same word for father is used for Jesus' Father.....They were of their father. This is where they came from.

definition of the word father

pater apparently a root word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pater 5:945,805
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pat-ayr' Noun Masculine

Definition
generator or male ancestor
either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
one advanced in years, a senior
metaph.
the originator and transmitter of anything
the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds

[alan4jc]

preachparsly said:

I'm not sure, but I think you may be missing the heart of the debate Alan. Please forgive me if I am wrong.

No one is arguing that people are sinful, even from an early age. The question is who is to blame for the sin? What is the root cause? Adam or my sole decision?

I'm not misunderstanding the question. I think we can look at the sum of all the different scriptures I have quoted and the few questions that I asked and come to the conclusion that we were born depraved of the spirit and therefore sinful by nature with no choice but to obey our nature.


I asked earlier how could Paul in Romans say we and our unless he believed all the people he was writing to were indeed guilty of sin? If all mankind was born sinless with the ability to not sin then it would be logical to suppose that some of the Romans Paul was writing to could be as yet without sin. But he didn't think any of them were as yet without sin. Why?

Because he knew by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that what he was saying was correct. They were all guilty of sin since birth. Thats how I see it after many years of thought and searching. We don't have to agree and it won't change one thing in Heaven for either of us. We are one body, one spirit, of one Father, through one Lord Jesus Christ. ;D ;D

[alan4jc]

www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/impute.html

Here is a good explanation

[bullhornbob]

Something to add to the mix here, guys.

If we are born to sin, with a sin nature, then how is God justified for judging sinners on Judgement Day? They are not willingly sinning, but are forced to sin by default. One would never choose to accept Christ because he is destined to be a sinner, and all he knows is sin, sin, sin. This original sin thing is a perfect excuse to go out and sin some more (when we know Jesus said GO AND SIN NO MORE). The sodomites love this original sin stuff. "I was born this way," they always say.

Also, the reason we need to be born again is not because we are born sinners, but because we were born with the ability to choose to sin, and did just that. The first birth is marred by the choice to sin, requiring new birth. Hence the term, born again. Being born the second time is impossible physically, but it is a rebirth of the spirit of a man.

Also, many scriptures can actually be favorable to both sides of this discussion. Take Romans 5:12 for example. It says by one man sin entered into the WORLD (not into man), and death by sin, because all have sinned. Paul sections these statements on purpose, to show us that knowledge of sin came into the world through Adam (remember, it was the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil), and death as the result of that sin. Death passes on to all who sin. Babies are unable to sin, because they cannot reason for themselves, or have any choice in the matter. Jesus even said that unless we become AS ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES, we will by no means enter the Kingdom.

I have some more, but it is bedtime for me!

[alan4jc]

;D It has been a great discussion and it made me think alot and dig into the Word and hopefully it did the same for others. Praise God that however it is He provided the sacrafice for all our sin in Christ...AMEN?

[sean]

If we are born to sin, with a sin nature, then how is God justified for judging sinners on Judgement Day?

Because of Romans 1. In their sin they still have their conscience and creation to point them to God. Yet they ingnore and suppress the light God has given them. So God is still Justified in judging them on Judgement Day.

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

[matthew7]

An interesting point is to be made on Romans Chapter 1, and the being that the Wrath of God is against them that "...hold the truth in unrighteousness;" This is clearly against Christians that are not faithful in understanding the truth and witnessing it. Conclusion: The people with the most light (Christians) will be held more accountable than others without such a profession.

[matthew7]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. The "one man" is Adam. The "all men" is you and I. The fall of man from a sinless nature to a sinful nature was the lost of eternal life and the punishment of eternal death. ROmans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death..." Jesus Christ took out fallen nature but by the power of the Holy Spirit given to Him by faith in His Father, he did the following: Hebrews 4:15 "...but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus overcame the temptations of Satan, thus, Jesus purchased back the dominion that man was given by God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 1:28). Man was given dominion, Satan took it from man, because in 2 Peter 2:19 "...for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." And Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to who ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servant ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Thus, Adam obeyed Satan and became his slave, to sin and death, Jesus became man (while still God, but did not use His power) and by faith in His Father's power (grace) he never obeyed Satan, thus, Jesus bought man back, at least those that accept what He did by faith and overcome exactly as did Jesus, by faith. Then Jesus paid for our past sins by His death on the cross, and gives us grace (power) to defeat Satan in our lives. That is why Jesus is our High Priest. Hebrews 8:3 "...ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices..." For our sin Jesus offers sacrifice (the cross) and for our victory over sin in the flesh He offers the "gift" of His grace or the power to claim His Bible promises. Thus, we can be partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Amen! Thank you Jesus

[Tony Cruz]

I think for those of you who believe that you dont have any sin in your life you are full of pride! And we are born sinners whether you like it or not, when you have a child that child does things that make you think, who told him how to hide when he does something wrong for the very first time. I have a child and this amazed me to see her do things without me teaching her it was wrong to do in the first place. That is b/c we are born with the sin nature in our lives and when we come to Christ we still have the devil come and place temptations that he knows we are capable of falling back into. But it saddens me to hear or should i say read many posts with the declaration of sinless people brothers that is flat out pride and that will keep you on the side of the pharisees strict with others that are not like you always looking on others to see yourself and that is sin.

[Miles Lewis]

torched said:

I think for those of you who believe that you dont have any sin in your life you are full of pride! And we are born sinners whether you like it or not, when you have a child that child does things that make you think, who told him how to hide when he does something wrong for the very first time. I have a child and this amazed me to see her do things without me teaching her it was wrong to do in the first place. That is b/c we are born with the sin nature in our lives and when we come to Christ we still have the devil come and place temptations that he knows we are capable of falling back into. But it saddens me to hear or should i say read many posts with the declaration of sinless people brothers that is flat out pride and that will keep you on the side of the pharisees strict with others that are not like you always looking on others to see yourself and that is sin.

If everyone must have sin in their life, then what are you accusing anyone of? So are you saying that you are not prideful?

[Kerrigan]

matthew7 said:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. The "one man" is Adam. The "all men" is you and I. The fall of man from a sinless nature to a sinful nature was the lost of eternal life and the punishment of eternal death. ROmans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death..." Jesus Christ took out fallen nature but by the power of the Holy Spirit given to Him by faith in His Father, he did the following: Hebrews 4:15 "...but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus overcame the temptations of Satan, thus, Jesus purchased back the dominion that man was given by God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 1:28). Man was given dominion, Satan took it from man, because in 2 Peter 2:19 "...for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." And Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to who ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servant ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Thus, Adam obeyed Satan and became his slave, to sin and death, Jesus became man (while still God, but did not use His power) and by faith in His Father's power (grace) he never obeyed Satan, thus, Jesus bought man back, at least those that accept what He did by faith and overcome exactly as did Jesus, by faith. Then Jesus paid for our past sins by His death on the cross, and gives us grace (power) to defeat Satan in our lives. That is why Jesus is our High Priest. Hebrews 8:3 "...ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices..." For our sin Jesus offers sacrifice (the cross) and for our victory over sin in the flesh He offers the "gift" of His grace or the power to claim His Bible promises. Thus, we can be partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Amen! Thank you Jesus

Let's stay on topic here. The topic is the sinful nature or original sin, not sinless perfection. That is for another thread. There are plenty of threads already on this topic. If you want to talk about them, go find them and talk on them. For now, let's stick to the topic at hand and not get off track....

I have been thinking and praying over this quite a bit. I will post more later...

[bullhornbob]

I agree RevK. We need to stay focused.

I have also been studying and praying about this for many months.

It seems I had some beliefs that were taught to me over the years. Some really Godly people challenged some of my beliefs (not just original sin, I might add), and I began to thoroughly search the Word.

I am truly amazed at what I am finding. May God bless your study and prayer time concerning this most important subject.

[Brother Adiel]

One thing I'll say is this...

I'm not exactly sure how original sin works...but I do know that when I preach the Gospel I always attack the person's personal sins. And I ask them "Should people that know the difference between right and wrong be held responsible for their own actions?!" And when they say "Yes of course!" To which I respond: "Well thats what the Bible says, that God will hold you responsible for your actions and from what we have seen you will surely be guilty!"

Is that wrong?

Also, how does Ezekiel 18 fit into the mix?

The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:


‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

(the whole chapter)

[alan4jc]

If the evidence (or result) of sin is death, and little children or babies have no sin in them then why do the die?

[Brother Adiel]

Animals too. Do they sin?

[Brother Adiel]

(Just trying to copy your one-liner style! Ha!)

[tbxi]

That is a good point, Adiel. The sarcasm is unprofitable and will quickly cause this thread to degenerate and become worthless, though.

[alan4jc]

adiel said:

Animals too. Do they sin?

The soul that sins will surely die. That is scripture. All creation groans and was affected, and infected with and by mans sin.

It's not really a one liner style. I try to ask simple question usual. Because it's easy for all of to write long statements.

[Brother Adiel]

The soul that sins will surely die. That is scripture. All creation groans and was affected, and infected with and by mans sin.

Just to get it out there, this is how I have come to understand this. We are guilty on two accounts:

1) Bad heart: Adam was our perfect representative. He did what each and every one
of us would have done. I'm guilty because had I been in the Garden I probably would have sinned even faster than Adam! The fall of man brought sin into the world resulting in death (including animal), disease, pain, suffering etc. We are all sons of Adams and are born in his fallen image with a wickedly deceitful heart.

2) Bad record: I, myself, have voluntarily chosen to do what is evil. I didnt technically HAVE to sin becaue I knew the difference between right and wrong and yet I chose to do evil. So, I'm guilty not just because of Adam, but because of myself. I cant blame Adam for my actions.

Thats my understanding.

It's not really a one liner style. I try to ask simple question usual. Because it's easy for all of to write long statements.

As far as the one-liner style. I wasnt making fun of you or being sarcastic brother. I actually think its kinda cool. Short and sweet and to the point.

[alan4jc]

Thanks!

[Kerrigan]

This is the conclusion that I have come to as of right now:

Death (physical) was brought into the world through on man Adam. This physical death is what has been passed on to all man. We will all die because of what Adam did in the Garden. All of creation has been affected by this. If sin had never came into the world, no human, animal or plant would ever die.

Spiritual death is brought on by our own personal choice to sin. We all have consciences and know right from wrong, but choose to do wrong anyway. This is what we are punished for or sent to Hell for. We aren't punished or sent to Hell for Adam's sin, but for our own sin only.

[Jesse Morrell]

This is the conclusion that I have come to as of right now:

Death (physical) was brought into the world through on man Adam. This physical death is what has been passed on to all man. We will all die because of what Adam did in the Garden. All of creation has been affected by this. If sin had never came into the world, no human, animal or plant would ever die.

Spiritual death is brought on by our own personal choice to sin. We all have consciences and know right from wrong, but choose to do wrong anyway. This is what we are punished for or sent to Hell for. We aren't punished or sent to Hell for Adam's sin, but for our own sin only.

I believe that is exactly what Charles Finney taught in his systematic theology. And that I what Winkie Pratney said in his article, "The Nature of Sin".

I'm still pondering all of it. But what Winkie said is that there is PHYSICAL DEPRAVITY and there is SPIRITUAL DEPRAVITY. Physical depravity is the gradual and eventual destruction of your body. Adams body was cursed. He gave birth to us. We inherited this physical depravity. But this physical depravity is not sin, neither makes you guilty of hell at birth. We are victims of this physical depravity, just as a handicapped baby born a "crack baby" is a victim.

This physical depravity is different then a sinful nature. A sinful "nature" says that it's "natural" or "normal" for a man to sin. But physical depravity influences you to sin, but doesn't cause you to sin. Physical depravity can be the author of temptation, but is not the author of sin. Human will is still the author of sin.

Even Jesus was born with this physical depravity, being subjected death.

But SPIRITUAL DEPRAVITY is not transmitted through birth. Mans personal sin is just that, his personal sin. For a man to be guilty of sin, that man must himself choose that sin. Sin is a result of a bad will not a bad nature.

At least, that is what I think Winkie is basicly saying.

You can read about PHYSICAL DEPRAVITY and SPIRITUAL DEPRAVITY here in Winkies article:

www.firesofrevival.com/wp/winkien.htm

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But I do find it interesting that nowhere is scripture does it say that man sins because he has to, but rather because he wants to. The scripture never says that man sins because of his nature, but rather because of his will. And scripture never says men are born totally depraved, but rather that depravity is attained after birth, and that there are different levels of depravity.

[glow=red,2,300]Take Romans chapter 1 for example. [/glow]

First, it does not say that people are born homosexuals. But rather, it says that homosexuality is a depravity that is later aquired. It actually lists the process someone goes through to reach that level of depravity.

Second, it never says that people are homosexuals because it is in their nature to be homosexuals. Rather, it says what they do is "against nature". Homosexuals sin against their nature, not because of their nature.

The conclusion is that Romans chapter 1 teaches that this type of depravity is after birth, it says that there are levels of depravity, and says that this sin is actually against nature, not according with it.

If it were true, that man has a sinful nature given to him at birth, that would make man the victim of sin. You blame nature for what man himself is responsible for. If man sins because it's "natural" for him to sin, because it's in his "nature" to sin, then hell is a place to punish normal people for being normal, rather then abnormal people for being abnormal. But sin is abnormal to the way man was designed, being made in God's image!

If it were true, that man has to sin, because he has a sin nature, then man cannot live right, which makes God's commandments impossible, and God's office tyranical. But the bible says God's commandments are not burdensome, that man can actually resist the devil and escape temptation. Man doesn't have to sin, but chooses to sin. Man can live right, but doesn't live right.

If man could not do right (because it's not in his nature), rather then man does not do right, (because it's not in his will), then man is not guilty of sin at all. Without ability there can be no responsibility or accountability.

Ultimately, for man to be guilty of sin, man must be born with "original ability" rather then "original sin". Because to affirm that man is incapable of doing right ultimately concludes that man is incapable of doing wrong, because without the ability to "choose" right, you cannot have the ability to "choose" wrong. To choose the darkness over the light you must have the ability to choose the light, or it's no choice at all!

But man is not the victim of sin, but the author of his own sin. True "original sin" is that man originates his own sin. God is not a tyrant. God only asks us to do what he gives us the ability to perform.

Sin is not according to our nature. But as Romans chapter 1 says, sin is against nature. A man has to deny what He internally knows as right, in order to do what he internally knows is wrong. A sinners is not someone who simply obeys his nature, but a sinner is one who willfully disgraces the image of God he was made in, by breaking God's commandments when he didn't have to.
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But I'm going to start intensely reading up on more of these theological issues. I'm going to study both the bible and also what other theologicans have said. So I'll be spending less time on the boards, using that time for study.

[sjn]

But I'm going to start intensely reading up on more of these theological issues. I'm going to study both the bible and also what other theologicans have said. So I'll be spending less time on the boards, using that time for study.

Amen!

These are not trivial issues and we should all give adequate time to prayer and study.

Steve

[Brother Adiel]

Even Jesus was born with this physical depravity, being subjected death.

Off the bat, I disagree with that statement. Are you saying that even if Jesus would not have subjected Himself to the cross, He would have at the very least died of old age?

[Jesse Morrell]

I think whether or not Christ would have died of old age or not is irrelevent to this topic. Let's stick to the majors of this issue and not the minors.

The point is that physical depravity does not constitute as sin and does not conclude as a sinful nature.

The soul that sins will surely die. That is scripture.

Alan, That is true. But remember in context of this scripture it's entirely against original sin. God was upset that the children of Israel were saying a proverb, "The fathers ate sour grapes, and the childrens teeth were set on edge." So God said no! Children will not be punished for the sin of the fathers, but rather, "the SOUL that sins IT shall die".

The full context is found in Ezekiel 18:1-9

[Kerrigan]

I, too, am finding discussing this issue with others, distracting, if that is the word for it. I will be committing this to prayer and study as well. It is too important not too! I want to get my theology right so that it will be a foundation for the rest of my Christian life! At this point I don't see how this issue could be viewed any way other than what I said in my last post. I am still struggling with how man's "flesh" or "nature" becomes sinful and when it does. I am having a hard time, however, finding passages that say we have inherited it from Adam. I guess in the past, I always interpreted the death in Romans 5 as spiritual...but now I am not seeing it this way at all. God give me the Grace to see things as you see it!

[alan4jc]

I asked earlier how could Paul in Romans say we and our unless he believed all the people he was writing to were indeed guilty of sin? If all mankind was born sinless with the ability to not sin then it would be logical to suppose that some of the Romans Paul was writing to could be as yet without sin. But he didn't think any of them were as yet without sin. Why?

Because he knew by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that what he was saying was correct. They were all guilty of sin since birth.