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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 2:21:19 GMT -5
The only exceptions it leaves room for is the 8. All others perished right?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 2:27:15 GMT -5
On a side note I just want to say what a blessing it has been to talk to all of the Brothers and Sisters on this board. All of you are a great encouragement...especialy all the open air preachers. I'm not saying this to puff anyone up just that up here in Northern Utah most Christians don't believe they have a spring of living water welling up inside like you guys  |
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 7:45:11 GMT -5
This is a post I made on another board, which I thought I'd share here. I was able to get into other aspects of this verse I hadn't previous commented on, such as the metaphysical aspect.
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I'm going to restrain from fully emersing into this debate. Right now, I'm dedicated to study theology more then I talk about theology.
But I do want to comment on this scripture since you brought it up.
If you are going to apply the first half of the verse "many were constituted sinners" universally and unconditionally, to say all inherit a sinful nature through Adam, then you must also apply the second half of the verse universally and unconditionally, to say that all will inherit eternal life because of Jesus Christ. To use this scripture for universal original sin, you also fall into the trap of universal justification!
There is no way to apply the first half universally and unconditionally and not apply the second half universally and unconditionally, without being theologically biased in your interpretation. Scriptures are re-interpreted and applied according to your pre-committed theology.
But both parts of that single verse must be applied conditionally. To become a sinner you must meet the condition of sin. To inherit eternal life you must meet the condition of repentance and faith.
But what this verse doesn't mention at all is a "sinful nature" nor anyones "birth".
"Constitute" is often used as though it meant metaphysically, but there is no reason to believe that at all. If "constitute" applied metaphysically for sin, then it would have to also metaphysically apply for righteousness!
So if you use this verse to believe in a physical sinful nature, then you would have to accept a notion that a Christian recieves a physical righteous nature. That would be a logical conclusion using your interpretation.
And to metaphysically apply the first half to sin BUT NOT metphysically apply the second half to righteousness reveals a theological bias, a precommitment to an already accepted theological system.
Also, though this translation says "constituted" the KJV uses the word "made". So it reads that many were "made sinners". Often, this is used as an arguement to say you are made a sinner despite your will. But "made" here is also used in multiple other places in the New Testament, and never does it imply "without will".
For example, being made a deacon or an elder in the Church. Though they are "made a deacon" or are "made an elder" being "made" is not against their will. Rather, it is with his will, but even so he must meet the qualification conditions. You are not made a deacon or made an elder unconditionally.
We need a reformation back to the early Church. Before Augustine, the Church had no doctrine of original sin, that says all humans are born with a sinful nature because of Adam. Before Augustine, such a notion was no where in the early Church.
Rather, you see the early Church fathers speak of mans free will and mans original ability.
We need a reformation back to the theology of the early Church.
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 15, 2006 10:35:17 GMT -5
Bob, who was James written to? To limit the Book of James, or any part of the Holy Bible, exclusively to Christians will obviously remove the power of the Word of God to reach the sinner. I understand who it was originally penned to, but I will not limit it's abilty to reach and change all men. Many verses are used throughout James for saint and sinner alike. James says "each man," so I will go with that. |
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 15, 2006 11:48:11 GMT -5
He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. The will versus the nature is the debate, and the will is subject to the flesh or the Sprirt. The fallen nature is the lusts of the flesh that must be subdued, by turning the will over to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and following the prompting of the Spirit and not the promptings of the "old man" or the habits of sinful flesh. Born again, is the Biblical term to a person that is subject to the new power in the life, The Holy Spirit. When a person continually obeys the promptings of the Holy Spirit in the life eventually their will becomes merged with the will of God and the promptings of the Spirit of God become their own. Thus, the "seal of God." Their is no longer sin in the life for the character has so been changed and always yielded to the Holy Spirit that a transformation has taken place. This is what happenen to Enoch, and Elijah. This is why it is taking so long for the 2nd coming of Jesus CHrist. In His mercy Christ is waiting for His servants to be sealed. Read Revelation CHapter 7. The winds of strife are being held bacl for you and for me. Amen to that!
Matthew
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 15, 2006 14:27:05 GMT -5
Okay, as I have been praying and studying, this is what I have come up with SO FAR:
We aren't born with a sinful nature. Babies aren't born with a sinful nature. They are born with free will, just like everyone else. But think about what happens when a baby is born. It is basically the center of the universe. Every cry, every wimper is catered to. If it wants to eat, it cries and gets fed. If it has a dirty diaper, it gets changed. It is doesn't feel good, it gets cuddled, held and has its back patted. It is trained to think "me first." Then over time (if the parent knows better), the child is trained to get out of that way of thinking. It is trained that it doesn't get what it wants when it wants it at all times. The child is trained to wait and have patience. The child is taught to say please and thank you. The child is taught to go to the bathroom on a toilet instead of in its pants. The child is taught to do things for itself instead of everyone doing it for them. This is what I believe I am fighting and training my children out of right now...what I used to think was their sinful nature. Now, I don't think parents do anything wrong in raising their children, this is just the way things are.
Later on, as children grow up and start to understand right and wrong, they begin to become accountable to God. If they have Christian parents, they are taught these things are wrong before God. They also have a conscience and if they are raised in a Christian home, they are taught the Word and hear it preached in Church. They have free will to obey or disobey. According to what I see in the Bible, ALL will disobey at some point in time. As they disobey God, their nature becomes more and more corrupted. They are teaching their bodies to do things that it was never meant to do: SIN. They teach it to spend time on things that don't matter. They teach it to be lazy. They teach their body to like sexual immorality, drunkeness, lust, coveteousness, drugs, alcohol, etc. As they continue to defy their conscience (and parents, Bible, Church, etc.-if these apply), things that are supposed to be unnatural to them now become natural. They are literally teaching and training their bodies to sin! In doing so, they become slaves to sin and are in bondage to sin. Their bodies become addicted to sin much in the same way one becomes addicted to drugs, alcohol, etc. It goes so far, that they no longer have the power in and of themselves to break the pattern that they have formed. That is why they need to become Born Again! God gives them the power to overcome sin and live victoriously over it!
If they become Born Again, through God drawing them near and them repenting and trusting Christ, they will become new creatures. But, this doesn't mean that their old nature is done away with. It no longer has power over them, but the consequences to their actions are still there. A former druggie may still have temptations. A former porn addict may still have temptations. Someone who used to lie all the time will have to be careful that they don't tell white lies, etc. The old nature still tries to control them, but it no longer has the power to do so.
The death or curse that I see passed on to ALL men as a result of Adam's sin is the physical death. Because Adam sinned and brought sin into the world, we will ALL die at some point in time. There is no escaping that. I believe that even Jesus' body was subjected to this, because He was born in human form. The "other" death spoken of in Scripture is spiritual death. This happens when someone sins willfully for the first time. They die spiritually, just like Adam and Eve did on that fatal day. Not only did Adam and Eve bring physical death into the entire world that day, but they also brought spiritual death upon themselves the day they died. I do believe that there is more temptation in our days then in their days, of course, but no sin or sin nature was imputed to us through their sin. I just can't find that in Scripture whatsoever! And if I do interpret certain verses in such a way, it causes contradictions in the Bible...and we know that there are NO contradictions in the Bible! People die physically because of Adam's sin, but go to Hell because of their own sin!
Although I don't subscribe to all of Winkie Pratney's theology, he helped to answer many of the questions I had.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 15, 2006 15:29:05 GMT -5
Response to Rev. K:
I agree with everything you said except:
"The "other" death spoken of in Scripture is spiritual death. This happens when someone sins willfully for the first time. They die spiritually, just like Adam and Eve did on that fatal day."
The word of God reveals His character. He Himself has declared His infinite love and pity. When Moses prayed, "Show me Thy glory," the Lord answered, "I will make all My goodness pass before thee." Exodus 33:18, 19. This is His glory. The Lord passed before Moses, and proclaimed, "The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Exodus 34:6, 7. He is "slow to anger, and of great kindness," "because He delighteth in mercy." Jonah 4:2.
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
KJV
It was to redeem us that Jesus lived and suffered and died. He became "a Man of Sorrows," that we might be made partakers of everlasting joy. God permitted His beloved Son, full of grace and truth, to come from a world of indescribable glory, to a world marred and blighted with sin, darkened with the shadow of death and the curse. He permitted Him to leave the bosom of His love, the adoration of the angels, to suffer shame, insult, humiliation, hatred, and death. "The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5. Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God--it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God.
Man was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love. His nature became so weakened through transgression that it was impossible for him, in his own strength, to resist the power of evil. He was made captive by Satan, and would have remained so forever had not God specially interposed. It was the tempter's purpose to thwart the divine plan in man's creation, and fill the earth with woe and desolation. And he would point to all this evil as the result of God's work in creating man.
But is was Jesus Christ that came down from heaven, defeated Satan, and released the captives. We were the captives but now are set free by faith in the atoning blood sacrifice of our LORD, Jesus Christ. But our natures are still fallen, but by the promises of God we are able to claim the power that these promises offer, to help us with our cultivated and inherited tendencies to sin (sin=obey Satan). Look at what 2 Peters 1:4 states:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. KJV.
It is the promises of God that we claim by faith to restore us the the "Divine nature" or unfallen nature of Adam before his fall. When Adam sinned the law left his heart and was now outside him witnessing that he was a sinner. God did not leave him a total slave to the devil, and that is where the first promise came into being Genesis 3:15. The promise of enmity, meaning a hate for sin. This hate for sin prompts us to respond to the Holy Spirit's guiding help in our lives, and the Holy Spirit brings to our remembrance those precious promises so that we can be partakers of the divine nature. But make no mistake, without this process people are slaves to their carnal passions. Slaves to the devil. The reason many will not be saved is they rejected the "down payment" gift of enmity, and never acted on that gift to come into the fuller fellowship with Christ by the agency of the Holy Spirit's ministration for them. The little light they were given went out and they will be found guilty for not improving that "talent" or measure of faith that every man is given, in our fallen state of carnal wickedness and seperation from God.
Matthew (SC17)
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 15, 2006 15:46:33 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand what you are disagreeing with matthew7...
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 15, 2006 16:17:57 GMT -5
Rev. K:
That is because everything you said was absolutely correct. However, man is not now like Adam was before he sinned. He (Adam) was holy without sin before his fall, we are unholy with sin. The sin of Adam fell upon the entire race. Adam could not pass on to his off-spring what he had lost through transgression. We are spiritually dead until we come to CHrist, and we will die the first death, but we that are in Christ "born again" will not die the second death, in the fires of hell when the wicked are turned into ashes. Mal 4:1.
The point is very minor, and maybe that is what you were in fact saying, and I miss read. If that is the case oops! Sorry! Anyway.
Matthew
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Post by evanschaible on Dec 15, 2006 16:28:39 GMT -5
Jesse,
I think I refuted this in one of my previous posts. Paul makes a differentiation between salvation and sin. He says they are not like one another.
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Post by sjn on Dec 15, 2006 16:38:05 GMT -5
I'm still seeking to grasp this issue as well but here's a major point as far as I'm concerned.
Romans 5:12-21 appears to be the entire FOUNDATION (not support) for the doctrine of Original Sin. Whenever someone tries to prove that we have inherited a sin nature from Adam they go to Romans 5. I was listening to Dr. Robert Peterson who is the Professor of Systematic Theology at Covenant Seminary and who co-authored the book Why I Am Not An Arminian. He said that this was "THE passage on Original Sin; at least the most important". He then made the point that the passage in context is NOT primarily about Original Sin but about justfication. He said it is primarily about justification and only secondarily about Original Sin. He then exegetes the passage in favor of Original Sin but throughout continues to mention that this is a very difficult passage.
If that is the case, and I believe it is, then the doctrine of Original Sin stands on very shaky ground.
Steve
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 16:55:50 GMT -5
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 15, 2006 23:48:30 GMT -5
A little more of what I have been pondering........
Most people who cling to the OS (Original Sin) view are actually trying to do exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden. God confronted Adam directly, and he defaulted to Eve, and she to the serpent. Passing the buck, so to speak.
I believe that OS is taught by men to help make the Christian comfortable in sin, and to remove responsibilty from the individual. I do not see scripture teaching every man being judged according to "one man's sin," but each for his own actions and choices.
If I am born a sinner, and always will be a sinner, than I get to sin my way through life, and DEATH becomes my savior, not Jesus. I will only have victory over sin when I die.
Lies. Flat out lies. Jesus saves from sin and hell. Period.
OS, in my opinion, is actually a doctrine of devils. One of many that the liar has weaved into "modern christianity."
PS - This thread is great!
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Post by tbxi on Dec 16, 2006 0:58:12 GMT -5
A little more of what I have been pondering........ Most people who cling to the OS (Original Sin) view are actually trying to do exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden. God confronted Adam directly, and he defaulted to Eve, and she to the serpent. Passing the buck, so to speak. I believe that OS is taught by men to help make the Christian comfortable in sin, and to remove responsibilty from the individual. I do not see scripture teaching every man being judged according to "one man's sin," but each for his own actions and choices. If I am born a sinner, and always will be a sinner, than I get to sin my way through life, and DEATH becomes my savior, not Jesus. I will only have victory over sin when I die. Lies. Flat out lies. Jesus saves from sin and hell. Period. OS, in my opinion, is actually a doctrine of devils. One of many that the liar has weaved into "modern christianity." PS - This thread is great! Thanks for the comments bullhornbob. I just came out of a REALLY fruitful and profitable evening. Had a wonderful meeting with some of the bro's and sisters at my church, and about an hour of conversation with a guy I just met who I have a feeling I'm going to be very good friends with. Anyway, the reason I say that is because this is a topic that came up during the various discussions I had. I say all of this in love. To the subject of the argument: saying that original sin (I prefer to speak of total inability because that's really the result of being unregenerate and lost) is a doctrine of devils simply because there are some folks out there who might misapply the doctrine and twist it to their own sinful wants and passions, is fallacious. It is just like saying that eternal security is wrong because there is some foolish man out there who thinks he's "once saved always saved" and therefore is headed to the bars and nightclubs to get wasted, because after all, he's "eternally secure". It is utter fallacy to say that just because someone abuses a doctrine, that doctrine is false. It is also not true that believing in original sin necessarily implies a sort of "passing the blame". Calvinists do not believe that all our sin is Adam's fault. We are justly condemned for our own sins and not those of others. What RevK said earlier about this really makes sense to me, and I won't go out on a limb for it but I essentially agree with his thoughtful analysis of the issue and the nature of sin. This sort of argumentation is similar to when an unbeliever argues against Christianity by talking about the horrible abuses and sins of the Catholic church. I don't think any of us would say that what the Catholics did in the inquisition and crusades invalidates the Christian faith, now would we? I believe in original sin but I do NOT use it as an excuse to wallow in sin. Similarly I believe Romans 7 is speaking of Paul's time-to-time struggle with sin after his conversion, but I do not use it to wallow in sin. I am a Reformed believer (I get so tired of the term 'Calvinist'... like Josh Williamson said, I follow the Lord Jesus and not John Calvin), and I hate sin because I love God; therefore I do not willingly choose to dwell in it (by the grace and sovereign will of God, of course). And that's all for now. Good night everybody. |
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Post by tbxi on Dec 16, 2006 18:12:08 GMT -5
I do agree with you in one way, though, bob: this thread is great. ;D
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 16, 2006 18:22:37 GMT -5
The will to live is a selfish will isn't it? Is anyone born without the will to live? Of course not. Why is this so hard? Adam and Eve had selfish desires which Satan exploited, period!
Jesse used the scripture: “for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Rom 5:19 YNG)
We were constituted because we were born with "eyes openned" to not closed to the knowledge of good and evil. The minute man became knowledgeable of good of evil, we became accountable to die because of it, once we grow old enough to understand.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 16, 2006 18:39:35 GMT -5
Does everyone agree that if you die without being in Christ then you are doomed to Hell?
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 16, 2006 19:30:12 GMT -5
Jack:
I think you need to be careful when you say Adam and Eve had selfish desires (with all due respect). The BIBLE states: GENESIS 3:13 "...The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." Adam and Eve were created perfect. They had no selfish desires. We make excuses for sin and say "they were selfish" but the truth is that the woman was "BEGUILED." She did not trust God when she had every reason to.With the earliest history of man, Satan began his efforts to deceive our race. He who had incited rebellion in heaven desired to bring the inhabitants of the earth to unite with him in his warfare against the government of God. Adam and Eve had been perfectly happy in obedience to the law of God, and this fact was a constant testimony against the claim which Satan had urged in heaven, that God's law was oppressive and opposed to the good of His creatures. And furthermore, Satan's envy was excited as he looked upon the beautiful home prepared for the sinless pair. He determined to cause their fall, that, having separated them from God and brought them under his own power, he might gain possession of the earth and here establish his kingdom in opposition to the Most High.
Had Satan revealed himself in his real character, he would have been repulsed at once, for Adam and Eve had been warned against this dangerous foe; but he worked in the dark, concealing his purpose, that he might more effectually accomplish his object. Employing as his medium the serpent, then a creature of fascinating appearance, he addressed himself to Eve: "Hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1. Had Eve refrained from entering into argument with the tempter, she would have been safe; but she ventured to parley with him and fell a victim to his wiles. It is thus that many are still overcome. They doubt and argue concerning the requirements of God; and instead of obeying the divine commands, they accept human theories, which but disguise the devices of Satan.
"The woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Verses 2-5. He declared that they would become like God, possessing greater wisdom than before and being capable of a higher state of existence. Eve yielded to temptation; and through her influence, Adam was led into sin. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what He said; they distrusted their Creator and imagined that He was restricting their liberty and that they might obtain great wisdom and exaltation by transgressing His law.
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure : he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
KJV. Eve lost the shield when she doubted God and His word. When we lust for the "traditions" of man which are many times in CHristianity in direct conflict with the Word (Law) of God. Matt 15:3;
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? KJV. Tradition = the word or teaching of man -VS- Word of God
Matt 15:7-9
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. KJV.
This is what Eve did "worship" command of Satan (serpent). Who we obey is who we worship. Even if deceived! Matthew 24:4 Jesus Christ said "take heed that no man deceive you."
Matthew (GC532)
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 16, 2006 19:42:01 GMT -5
Alan4jc,
I think we all have to agree that there is going to be a "hell fire" for the wicked!
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. KJV.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell ; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. KJV.
Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell , into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. KJV.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body , but are not able to kill the soul : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. KJV.
But my prayer for all of us is: 1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV.
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 16, 2006 23:40:17 GMT -5
Jesse,
How does one get "in" Adam? How does one get "in" Christ?
Just curious how you answer that...
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 17, 2006 2:47:10 GMT -5
John 16:7vNevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. KJV.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: KJV.
John 14:27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. KJV.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. KJV.
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer:
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
Many are the figures by which the Spirit of God has sought to illustrate this truth, and make it plain to souls that long to be freed from the burden of guilt. When, after his sin in deceiving Esau, Jacob fled from his father's home, he was weighed down with a sense
of guilt. Lonely and outcast as he was, separated from all that had made life dear, the one thought that above all others pressed upon his soul, was the fear that his sin had cut him off from God, that he was forsaken of Heaven. In sadness he lay down to rest on the bare earth, around him only the lonely hills, and above, the heavens bright with stars. As he slept, a strange light broke upon his vision; and lo, from the plain on which he lay, vast shadowy stairs seemed to lead upward to the very gates of heaven, and upon them angels of God were passing up and down; while from the glory above, the divine voice was heard in a message of comfort and hope. Thus was made known to Jacob that which met the need and longing of his soul--a Saviour. With joy and gratitude he saw revealed a way by which he, a sinner, could be restored to communion with God. The mystic ladder of his dream represented Jesus, the only medium of communication between God and man.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. KJV.
Matthew
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 17, 2006 8:36:56 GMT -5
Jesse, How does one get "in" Adam? How does one get "in" Christ? Just curious how you answer that... The only verse in the Bible that I can find that says this is 1 Corinthians 15:22. Is that what you are talking about Josh? Well, it seems to be talking about physical death there as well...not spiritual death as a result of someone's own willfull rebellion against God. Here is 1 Corinthians 15:20-26, to give context: "20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." |
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 17, 2006 13:45:21 GMT -5
Psalm 61:7 He shall abide before God for ever: O prepare mercy and truth, which may preserve him. KJV.
What is truth? Pontius Pilate asked Jesus Christ during the trial "What is truth?" John 18:38. The truth is Jesus John 1:14 "...ful of grace and truth." But the question has not been answered. What is truth? Jesus was full of it, but what is it? The answer as always is in the Word of God. See Psalm 119:142 and 151: Ps 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. KJV. Psalm 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. KJV. So what is righteousness? Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. KJV.
Psalm 15:1 A Psalm of David. LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? What was in the tabernacle? Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. KJV. What was in the "ark of his testament? Ex 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony , tables of stone, written with the finger of God. KJV. The tabernacle had the ark of the testiment, and in the ark was the LAW of GOD.
Psalm 15:2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not. What is the fear of the LORD? Psalm 111:10 says "The fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." Fear the LORD = keep the 10 commandments, the law of God.
5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. KJV. Moved from where? Abiding in the Law of God! Or if you will "in Christ."
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. KJV. What is the light??? Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: KJV. Jesus is a living example of the Law of God lived out in human flesh by faith! Jesus is the law, the light of God's glory. We can be too, by faith in Christ and abiding in His law by grace (the power of God).
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; KJV.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. KJV. What fruit? Galatians 5:22 & 23 the fruit of obedience to the law of God and character perfection by faith. The fruits are the product of commandment keeping. Revelation 14:12. "...here are they that keep the commandments of God..."
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: KJV.
So what is Christ in you? Having the Holy Spirit in your life and with the power of grace imparted by His presence, being able to live without sin. If Christ is in you, sin can not be! Either Christ is in a person or the devil. Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" We must choose this day to be obedient to Christ and the Law of God, or the devil and disobedience and sin which is breaking the Law of God. It is as simple as that. It always has been and will be until the 2nd coming of Christ. There will always be two groups, them that seek with their whole heart to obey the Law of God, and them that are only Christians from their mouth or from some other selfish motive. Look at the parable of the "Ten Virgins:"
Matthew 25:1-3 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: KJV.
What are virgins? Them that have pure Bible doctrine. Isa 37:22 "This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin , the daughter of Zion..." KJV. The virgin or daughter of Zion was an Old Testament referance to the "Church" that God claimed as His own. Even though the church was frequently disobedient, they new the truth, they new the law and they were called "virgins" in relation to their knowledge of the Word of God.
What are the lamps? That is a symbol for the Law of God! See Proverbs 6:22 &23. The last question is, what is the oil?
Psalm 89:20 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: KJV.
1 Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. KJV.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
KJV
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel... KJV.
ANSWER: The oil in the Bible is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. So the 10 virgins all have a true understanding of the Word of God. For they are virgins. They do not drink the "wine of Babylon," which is false doctrine. They study the Word of God and do not do any pagan traditions that crept into Christianity during the "Dark Ages." The oil is the Holy Spirit and He abides in all Christians that seek to keep the Law of God, and want to stop sinning against God with all their, heart, mind, soul and strength. Thus, the appellation "Christ in you." The presence of the Holy Spirit in your life. It is the annointing of God's approval.
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 17, 2006 16:55:14 GMT -5
I was mainly just reiterating a question I seen someone else ask. I don't remember which message board it was on. I was just curious to see how it would be answered.
Hey Rev, since you now do not believe we are born with a sinful nature, does this change your view of total depravity?
Does one sin totally deprave someone? Did it do that to Adam?
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 17, 2006 20:34:43 GMT -5
Hey Rev, since you now do not believe we are born with a sinful nature, does this change your view of total depravity? Does one sin totally deprave someone? Did it do that to Adam? Here's what I posted on the previous page of this thread: Okay, as I have been praying and studying, this is what I have come up with SO FAR:
We aren't born with a sinful nature. Babies aren't born with a sinful nature. They are born with free will, just like everyone else. But think about what happens when a baby is born. It is basically the center of the universe. Every cry, every wimper is catered to. If it wants to eat, it cries and gets fed. If it has a dirty diaper, it gets changed. It is doesn't feel good, it gets cuddled, held and has its back patted. It is trained to think "me first." Then over time (if the parent knows better), the child is trained to get out of that way of thinking. It is trained that it doesn't get what it wants when it wants it at all times. The child is trained to wait and have patience. The child is taught to say please and thank you. The child is taught to go to the bathroom on a toilet instead of in its pants. The child is taught to do things for itself instead of everyone doing it for them. This is what I believe I am fighting and training my children out of right now...what I used to think was their sinful nature. Now, I don't think parents do anything wrong in raising their children, this is just the way things are.
Later on, as children grow up and start to understand right and wrong, they begin to become accountable to God. If they have Christian parents, they are taught these things are wrong before God. They also have a conscience and if they are raised in a Christian home, they are taught the Word and hear it preached in Church. They have free will to obey or disobey. According to what I see in the Bible, ALL will disobey at some point in time. As they disobey God, their nature becomes more and more corrupted. They are teaching their bodies to do things that it was never meant to do: SIN. They teach it to spend time on things that don't matter. They teach it to be lazy. They teach their body to like sexual immorality, drunkeness, lust, coveteousness, drugs, alcohol, etc. As they continue to defy their conscience (and parents, Bible, Church, etc.-if these apply), things that are supposed to be unnatural to them now become natural. They are literally teaching and training their bodies to sin! In doing so, they become slaves to sin and are in bondage to sin. Their bodies become addicted to sin much in the same way one becomes addicted to drugs, alcohol, etc. It goes so far, that they no longer have the power in and of themselves to break the pattern that they have formed. That is why they need to become Born Again! God gives them the power to overcome sin and live victoriously over it!
If they become Born Again, through God drawing them near and them repenting and trusting Christ, they will become new creatures. But, this doesn't mean that their old nature is done away with. It no longer has power over them, but the consequences to their actions are still there. A former druggie may still have temptations. A former porn addict may still have temptations. Someone who used to lie all the time will have to be careful that they don't tell white lies, etc. The old nature still tries to control them, but it no longer has the power to do so.
The death or curse that I see passed on to ALL men as a result of Adam's sin is the physical death. Because Adam sinned and brought sin into the world, we will ALL die at some point in time. There is no escaping that. I believe that even Jesus' body was subjected to this, because He was born in human form. The "other" death spoken of in Scripture is spiritual death. This happens when someone sins willfully for the first time. They die spiritually, just like Adam and Eve did on that fatal day. Not only did Adam and Eve bring physical death into the entire world that day, but they also brought spiritual death upon themselves the day they died. I do believe that there is more temptation in our days then in their days, of course, but no sin or sin nature was imputed to us through their sin. I just can't find that in Scripture whatsoever! And if I do interpret certain verses in such a way, it causes contradictions in the Bible...and we know that there are NO contradictions in the Bible! People die physically because of Adam's sin, but go to Hell because of their own sin!
Although I don't subscribe to all of Winkie Pratney's theology, he helped to answer many of the questions I had.
No, I don't think one sin depraves someone. Like I said though, this is the conclusion I have come to thus far. I watched Ravi Zacharias on TV tonight (NRB) and he made some pretty good points. I really haven't figured it all out yet, but by the Grace of God I am on the way.... |
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 17, 2006 21:19:22 GMT -5
Rev. K,
I would love to see some scripture for your above opinions. How do you know what babies are born like? Where is the Bible on that. I not into psychology. Just the Word of God. When Adam sinned he became seperated from his creator.
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. KJV.
Mankind was cut off from direct commmunion with God. That is why we need Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin, and give us grace (power) to once again be partakes of the divine nature, not our filthy fallen nature. We have access to God's blessings for this transformation through the promises in the Word of God.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. KJV.
Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? KJV.
If the Word of God can break rock, it can break man's stubborn, selfish heart, if we submit!
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 17, 2006 21:56:52 GMT -5
I guess what seems hard for me to grasp is that if they are merely trained to sin, why can they not be trained not to sin? How would that action turn into a "nature." I haven't listened to that Pratney teaching in about a year or so, but I think he explained the two views of what "nature means.
Nature can mean something that a person is naturally inclined to do or it is instinctive (inbred) in them to do. Nature can also mean something someone habitually does. Ex. "I know John lies a lot. That is just his nature." When someone makes that statement he is not saying John was born to lie, but rather that is "just the way he is." So, if nature is not what a person is inbred to do, then it is their habitual action.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't see it possible to not believe you are born with a "sinful nature" and believe that Christian still has an "old sinful nature." Because it's not a Christian's "nature" to sin. Are you following me?
In my mind, the two are connected. If you believe in a Christian having a "sinful nature" then you have to believe that nature means that is what they are inbred to do. If you believe that nature is something that is habitually done, then you can't believe Christians have a "sinful nature." Because we all agree Christians don't habitually sin.
This is surely why Jesse rejects the view of a Christian having a dual nature since he doesn't believe in "original sin." At least as far as any version resembling the reformed tradition. By the way, not everyone who believes in inbred sin believes that Christians still have sinful natures. Those that hold that view believe that the old nature is killed and we now are partakers of the divine nature.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 17, 2006 22:37:15 GMT -5
Josh,
That last post was a blessing, thank you. I think you are correct when you seem to question what exactly "nature" is and is not. I believe if we came up with the Bible definition for "nature" we would be on the same sheet of music to clearly define the issue from a Biblical point of view.
Josh, please feel free to check me on this definition that I am going to give (by God's grace) and see if you can add too or take away. Before the fall of man, it was natural for man to yield to the indwelling of God's Holy spirit. But after the fall it is more natural for man to yield to his own will. Meaning after the fall, man has a greater tendency to yield to Satan or sinful tendencies. We lost the fullness of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We need it back. That is why Paul says he "dies daily" 1Cor 15:51. We must daily yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in order to do righteousness. If we have a wicked temper, we need the Holy Spirit to soften us and recreate in us a "Christlike temper."
The definition of the nature we have would be a sinful nature, a nature that is inclined to sin. A nature if left without the aid of the Holy Spirit would be deemed worthy of death in the fires of hell.
Jesse started in ministry when he was 16 years old. He has been under the ministry of the Holy Spirit's care for him all of his adult life. It may be harder for him to understand the power of temptation when he was so blessed to follow Jesus CHrist at such a young age. Praise the LORD for that! But for me, that came to Christ after spending 9 years in wicked universities obtaining 4 college degrees that had nothing to do with Jesus CHrist, and being around the sinful filth of those institutions, I yielded a lot!!! The years I spent learning man's wisdom took it's effect on me. When I came to CHrist I had to unlearn my entire life and learn to submit to new thought processes, prompted by the Holy Spirit. The "born Again" process was slow at first for me until I finally learned to recognize the Holy Spirit from self. That was a big learning curve. Pride is a major obstacle!!! Pride has to die first!!! I learned that much for sure! However, blessed young men like Jesse might not have the nasty fights with self as I had to fight in the past. So the "fallen nature" issue may take time to learn. However, being married will put new demands on Jesse and if there are character changes that are hidden from him, marriage will bring them out. It is only in trial that we see our true character. When we are "pressed down" with difficulties, then our true character will come to the surface. God will give us all the victory over these character deformities once we know there existance. God will continue to work on us until we reflect the perfect righteousness of Christ. Matthew 5:48 "Be ye perfect..."
Let me know what you think?
Matthew
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 17, 2006 22:49:00 GMT -5
Rev. K, I would love to see some scripture for your above opinions. How do you know what babies are born like? Where is the Bible on that. I not into psychology. Just the Word of God. When Adam sinned he became seperated from his creator. Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. KJV. Mankind was cut off from direct commmunion with God. That is why we need Jesus to pay the penalty for our sin, and give us grace (power) to once again be partakes of the divine nature, not our filthy fallen nature. We have access to God's blessings for this transformation through the promises in the Word of God. 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. KJV. Brother, I guess I am confused as to what we are in disagreement about. As I read your posts in this thread, we seem to be in agreement. Can you be a little more specific as to what you disagree with and want Scripture references for? As for a whole of what I said, I DON'T have Scripture references for all of it. Part of the problem with this whole "Original Sin" or if we are born with a "Sinful Nature" or not is the fact that I don't see it clearly laid out in Scripture either way. If the disagreement we have is that you believe we are born with a "Sinful Nature", can you give me Scripture references for that belief? I have believed that my whole Christian life (last 9.5 years) until now. Never really challenged it hard enough I guess. Now I can't seem to find Scripture to back it up. And the Scriptures that so-called back it up don't seem to back it up at all to me. In fact, I have read commentaries by people like John MacArthur, listened to sermons by Reformed 5-point Calvinists, listened to debates on the issue and listened to Winkie Pratney and have come to the conclusions that I have come to thus far.... But, like I said, I am still working it all out.... |
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 17, 2006 23:03:39 GMT -5
Josh, in response to your post...maybe "nature" is the wrong word. Maybe "flesh" is the right word, I don't know. All I know is that I can't find ANYWHERE in the Bible where it says we are born with a sinful nature. Who says that a child can't be taught not to sin? I am sure that there are many children who are raised in good Christian homes who don't sin as much as I did. The point is that unless they take part in the divine nature or are Born Again, they don't have the power to overcome sin like they need. Being just in the "flesh" isn't enough to overcome all sin. What are your views on everything Josh?
On another note, when I see Jesus interact with children in the Bible, I don't see him calling them little devils or telling them to repent. I see him saying things like this: Matthew 18:2-6
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and abecome like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
6 but awhoever bcauses one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
And this: Matthew 19:14-15
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
15 After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.
And this: Matthew 21:15-16
15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that He had done, and the children who were shouting in the temple, “Hosanna to the aSon of David,” they became indignant
16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these children are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘aOut of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself’?”
What do we do with these verses in light of the belief that someone can be born with a sinful nature?
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Mar 12, 2020 15:44:10 GMT -5