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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 14, 2006 19:07:06 GMT -5
So, alan, do you believe that babies who die go to Hell? Do you believe aborted babies go to Hell?
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Post by sjn on Dec 14, 2006 19:16:28 GMT -5
Isn't it only logical to believe that all babies who die will go to hell if we are born guilty?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 14, 2006 19:24:39 GMT -5
The Augustine arguement for original sin goes like this: We were in Adams physical loins when he sinned. We too sinned in Adam. So all babies are born with a physical, sinful nature, and deserve hell because they sinned in Adam.
Which is why Augustine believed unbaptized babies go to hell.
But if you view that consequence of Adams fall, not as a sinful nature inherited to us (which scripture no where teaches) but that we are victims and inherit physical depravity, as a crack baby is a victim and inherits physical issues, then you can understand how we feel the affects of Adams fall, but did not partake of Adams fall, and thus do not deserve hell until we personally disobey.
I'm going to see if I can purchase Finneys original 1851 Systematic Theology, along with the Works of Pelagius, and I'll continue reading John Fletchers Checks to Antinomianism, and also will continue to read what Winkie has written. And of coarse, judge all things by the scriptures.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 14, 2006 19:24:58 GMT -5
Nope....and I don't have a great theological reason  |
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 14, 2006 19:28:40 GMT -5
Any thoughts on my previous commentary on Romans and it's teaching on depravity, nature, etc etc?
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Post by evanschaible on Dec 14, 2006 19:32:02 GMT -5
Has anyone addressed my arguments in the previous posts.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 14, 2006 19:41:31 GMT -5
 Not unnecessarily. As I've said before, no one denies that "all have sinned." |
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Post by tbxi on Dec 14, 2006 19:46:25 GMT -5
I'm not really into this argument, but I just want to mention one counterexample that shows that whatever one's theology says, at least one infant has been among the elect. 2 Sam. 12:18-23: 18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." |
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 14, 2006 19:48:32 GMT -5
Any thoughts on my previous commentary on Romans and it's teaching on depravity, nature, etc etc? I'm headed home from work in a few minutes and Ill check it out later at home |
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 14, 2006 19:50:28 GMT -5
That's right. I don't think David was planning on going to hell.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 14, 2006 19:52:03 GMT -5
Any thoughts on my previous commentary on Romans and it's teaching on depravity, nature, etc etc? Seems right as I look over Romans. Are you saying that Romans 1:18-32 applies to all lost sinners? Are all lost sinners depraved? I guess some could be more depraved then others based on how far down the path they have gone. Also, there might be a chance that lost sinners aren't born with a sin nature, BUT, if they aren't then it is definitely true that ALL will eventually sin! Otherwise, Romans 3:10-18 couldn't be in the Bible or Romans 3:23. It is inevitable. So, even if we aren't Born with a sin nature, we will ALL eventually sin according to the Bible. So, even though we may have the "ability" to not sin, but our "will" will cause us to sin at some point in time... Some things I am struggling with: Romans 7:13-25- Is Paul just talking about himself here? If he is, then what do I internally struggle with everyday? I am not talking about outward temptation that comes from the devil, demons or the world. I am talking about internal temptation. Is that just lasting consequences from my past sin? Do we develop a "flesh" or "sin nature" on our own through our past sin or does a lost sinner develop a "flesh" or "sin nature" through his own sin? Why does the Bible say we are slaves to sin and in bondage to it? If we don't have a sin nature, then why do we need to become Born Again? Why can't we just repent, put our faith in Jesus Christ and start walking according to the nature we already have? These are just a few ;D |
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Post by sjn on Dec 14, 2006 20:58:32 GMT -5
I would encourage everyone who's studying this issue to take the time to listen to this lecture on Original Sin by Dr. Bruce Ware. It will give a good understanding of a theologian who does hold to the doctrine. Dr. Ware is associate dean and professor of Christian Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. I think it is very important to get the different views from people within that camp and not from those who disagree. It's at the bottom of the page and you have to sign in to listen or download. Bruce Ware - Original Sin www.biblicaltraining.org/class.php?id=115Note: I'm not posting because I agree with this teaching (I don't even know what I believe on this right now), but because it's from a reputable scholar in the Reformed traditon - someone many of us on these boards wouldn't usually listen to.  Steve |
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 14, 2006 21:23:57 GMT -5
Here's the link to a debate on Original Sin or the Sin Nature. I am listening to it right now... By the way Steve, your link doesn't work... |
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 14, 2006 21:31:24 GMT -5
Here is the link to a debate on Total Depravity. This is actually night one of the same debate, so probably should listen to this one first. I am going to download this one too... |
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Post by sjn on Dec 14, 2006 21:37:51 GMT -5
Thanks Kerrigan. I think I got it now.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 14, 2006 23:50:09 GMT -5
Okay back online the internet was down.
Here is my question...Did Paul say all have sinned or all will sin?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 0:10:27 GMT -5
How could Paul say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God if all mankind had not sinned?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 0:24:17 GMT -5
For now, I'm going to do more listening on this subject then talking. This is a great historical overview of theological thought, regarding original sin. It's the one called: Early Church History www.sheeporgoat.com/mp3/Pratney_HILO-SOE-74/ |
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 15, 2006 0:52:38 GMT -5
The Bible makes clear that we are justified by faith. Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
KJV. You do not have any righteousness of your own. But that which is imputed to you by the faith of Jesus Christ, faith in His righteousness. Righteousness by faith is the only method the Bible upholds for salvation. Fallen man does not have power to obey outside of Christ. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. KJV. You can do nothing in relation to right doing without the indewelling of the Holy Spirit. We are saved by faith that works, not works on our own strength. The problem in understanding these important themes is based on true education. The Bible is to be the text book and the Holy Spirit the teacher. But when you continually study the writings of men, no matter how great they were in their time, your understanding can not expand. THerefore, always refering to Charles Finney and others will limit the Word of God and obscure the deep truths of salvation. Stick to the Word. Not Charles Finney, (although he was a great Christian, and Oberlin college should be the standard for all educational institutes).
Matthew
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 15, 2006 0:57:23 GMT -5
For now, I'm going to do more listening on this subject then talking. Excellent advice, Jesse. I have gone over this for more than a year now. Lots of interesting scriptures; like Ezek. 18, of course Romans throughout, but how about James 1, speaking about sin being a result of giving in to temptation. Why would "each man" be tempted to sin if we already have a sin nature? And where does the lust come from? Interesting..................... |
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 0:58:34 GMT -5
Bob, who was James written to?
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 15, 2006 1:48:29 GMT -5
Bob, The issue is victory over sin. We can have the victory by the grace of God, and we access this grace by faith. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: KJV. You see we access the power of God (grace) by faith. We must call on God to receive this power to defeat the temptations of Satan.
1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. KJV. The LORD wants to see a people that will have faith in CHrist and call on Him when tempted to sin. This is the life of a true CHristian. A victorious Christian, in CHrist, meaning in His power to sustain us from falling into sin.
Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, KJV. Amen!
Matthew
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 2:01:01 GMT -5
I don't think we are debating victory over sin, though sadly some on these boards do not believe victory is possible.
But basicly this debate is over why men sin. Is it because of their will or is it because of their nature?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 2:06:16 GMT -5
I have a question that just came to mind. Why did God kill all the little children in the flood?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 2:10:26 GMT -5
Genesis 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 2:12:22 GMT -5
Did "all flesh" include Noah?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 2:13:34 GMT -5
Ge 6:9 - These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 15, 2006 2:17:36 GMT -5
Agreed about Noah and the 7 others but all the rest of the flesh was destroyrd right. Noah was the only one who was just. That means all other flesh wasn't. Or did God kill sinless little children?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 2:18:53 GMT -5
Glad you admit that "all flesh" there still leaves room for exceptions.
Regarding the babies, I have a few different thoughts and can think of a few different perspectives, but I don't think I should speak where scripture is silent.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 15, 2006 2:21:07 GMT -5
But babies still die through floods and earth quakes and tornados etc etc today. And holy Christians die in them today as well.
Death will come to all of us eventually. The rain falls on the just and the unjust, the young and the old.
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Mar 12, 2020 15:44:10 GMT -5