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Post by sean on Feb 22, 2008 23:59:52 GMT -5
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Post by danlirette on Feb 23, 2008 0:01:00 GMT -5
This is POWERFUL!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 23, 2008 11:00:37 GMT -5
I would warn everyone against getting sucked into the ministry of John Piper. I've seen many good brethren fall into heresy because of Piper. He's a dynamic, powerful, moving speaker, but his theology is heresy.
Piper teaches that God prefers sin over holiness in every instance that it occurs (secret will of God).
Piper teaches that God causes every rape, murder, molestation, etc (secret will & sovereignty)
And Piper teaches that we have to sin every day but we are already forgiven of all future sins (defeatism & license to sin).
Please brothers, stay far away from Piper and his heresies!
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djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
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Post by djpray on Feb 23, 2008 23:50:18 GMT -5
Jesse, I am just wondering if Piper is as you say he is which is basically "Pro-sin" - why then does his church - Bethlehem Baptist Church practice church discipline? That church puts out of the membership of the church those who continue in unrepentant sin. That doesn't seem very "pro-sin" to me. Also I am curious if the church you are involved in presently (if you are active in a church) also practices church discipline and removes unrepentant, sinning members from the church? Just curious...as always Derek
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Post by sean on Feb 24, 2008 1:28:57 GMT -5
Jesse, I am just wondering if Piper is as you say he is which is basically "Pro-sin" - why then does his church - Bethlehem Baptist Church practice church discipline? That church puts out of the membership of the church those who continue in unrepentant sin. That doesn't seem very "pro-sin" to me. Also I am curious if the church you are involved in presently (if you are active in a church) also practices church discipline and removes unrepentant, sinning members from the church? Just curious...as always Derek Great questions.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 24, 2008 2:13:03 GMT -5
I think it's more about staying away from false teachings. The man may be the second holiest man that has ever walked the face of the earth, but the fact of the matter is that this doesn't mean a thing. You guys who are pro-Piper are mostly Calvinists yourselves so it is only natural to defend your own blood (sect.). But as a steward of God we need to listen to our conscience and if our conscience tells us that it is heresy we would be in sin not to tell others. [And vice versa.]
I'm not saying Piper is on his way to hell but I would say Piper teaches heresy from my understanding of scripture anyway. Now you guys of course will possibly be offended by this statement but I have obeyed my conscience in saying it. Also, I'll even admit that there was a time not long ago that I listened to Piper until I realized what he truly believed.
So in conclusion to what I said, it is not wrong to say if our conscience leads us to say it, that a man is a heretic (schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine.) Nor is it wrong to warn others, if anything it is actually commendable. Now you guys can say otherwise, that of course is also fine considering we have individual liberty in Christ.
Conscience: When I say we need to listen to our conscience, I mean we need to listen to what the Spirit is saying to our conscience.
In Christ Matt
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 24, 2008 22:08:07 GMT -5
Djpray,
I find Calvinists to contradict themselves. As you pointed out, Piper's church practices church disciple and removes members who are in public sin, yet from the pulpit Piper says that he sins every day and that you cannot stop sinning.
I encountered a Calvinist on campus the other day and he said, "Classic Calvinism doesn't believe that you can live in sin and be a Christian." I said, "You mean like a lifestyle of sin?" He said, "Yes". I said, "You mean like sinning every day?" He said, "well, we all sin every day." Ah huh. So if we live a lifestyle of sin we aren't Christians, yet Christians sin every day and cannot stop? What then is a lifestyle of sin?
So as we see, Calvinists have to continually contradict themselves to hold unto their view that you cannot stop sinning in this life, yet at the same time, you must not live in public or continual sin. This is a contradiction and I'm glad that genuine Christians, who have been deceived into Calvinism, do not actually sin every day - their practices are better then their theologies.
Another contradiction is that Calvinists believe men do not have a free will, and that God sovereignly plans every sin. Yet even with this belief, they will get upset and grieved over sinners sinning and rejecting Jesus. But according to them, whenever they are grieved with sin they are actually grieved with the Sovereign plan of God, and they are upset with sinners who cannot help it.
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djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
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Post by djpray on Feb 25, 2008 5:07:04 GMT -5
Jesse,
Do you know of any MGT churches; particularly those that might have websites? I would be curious if they actually practice what they preach.....lest they might also be guilty of "contradicting themselves." I would be interested to see if MGT churches actively practice Biblical church discipline as they should....if they were to really uphold the MGT teaching.
DJ
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Post by tbxi on Feb 25, 2008 18:46:47 GMT -5
How ironic that the MGT folks on this board are so willing to accuse us of not understanding their position, when this post is a prime example of your utter ignorance of what you are talking about. Both of these paragraphs have been corrected on this forum time and time again, with the corrections simply being shrugged off and/or responded to with more facile and shallow comments.
In short:
1. You disagree with Calvinists about what sin actually is. I believe sin is an *act* not a "free will" choice. Thoughts are acts and choices are acts, but choices made by humans are not inherently free will choices, and not all acts are choices and thoughts. Hence there are sins that are not conscious, as is mentioned in the Old Testament several times.
However, you like to use the "free will choice" definition to attack Calvinists, but you aren't using their terms in order to criticize their theology, which is totally unfair. Frankly, MGT/open theism and Calvinism are about as far apart as Islam is from Christianity. They are two totally different conceptions of God, sin, salvation, justification, etc, and I don't have any idea why you continue to act like Calvinists are your deceived brothers instead of not your brothers at all.
2. Time and time again Calvinists here have clarified that they are not grieved with the sovereign plan of God in the sense that we think it is somehow wrong, just because our corrupt emotions might express otherwise at times. I am not grieved with the sovereign plan of God in the sense that I agree that God's sovereign plan is absolutely right and just, and that even things God expresses opposition towards and things that we grieve are ultimately for a greater good, and therefore, ultimately will be delighted in someday because of their reflection of the justness, righteousness, and holiness of God (for example, see Genesis 50, and in general, the punishment of the wicked, the ordainment of sin for the purpose of the redemption of God's chosen ones, etc). Paul in Romans grieves that his brothers of the nation of Israel are not all saved, and even says that he wishes he could be accursed and d**ned if they would be saved. But that doesn't stop him from going on to say that God is absolutely right in having mercy on whom He has mercy (which implies that He does not have mercy on whom He does not have mercy). In the same sense as I have expressed in this paragraph, it really is sad that you and others here are so caught up in your foolishness that you don't understand these distinctions even after they have been explained so many times. But that it is happening is perfectly just and right, as are all other things God ordains.
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