Post by miche on Jan 24, 2009 23:22:50 GMT -5
This is a continuation of the abortion and life begins at conception discussion that began over on Jesse's "Obamanation" thread I'll copy paste the pertinent parts of the discussion that was written there.
FS-- I was not for Obama at first, but this sounds great now that I look at it. More power to him. I am glad he is President and not some of the street preachers. That is why God purr Obama in a position of authority. Again, this sounds great to me.
MICHE--Fs, surely you agree that homosexuality is a sin right? Do you understand that abortion(stem cell research includes aborting life too) is murder in God's eyes? Even worse is that it is murder of an innocent human being. Public schools and Planned Parenthood have lied saying that a fertilized egg is just a mass of cells....but God says that is a human being that he created Himself. See for yourself what God thinks about these issues:
Abortion
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. {the term fetus may confuse some people, but the truth is that it's a live baby in there whose life needs to be nurtured and protected.}
Psalm 139:13
For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
Psalm 106:35-39
But they mingled with the Gentiles
And learned their works;
They served their idols,
Which became a snare to them.
They even sacrificed their sons
And their daughters to demons,
And shed innocent blood,
The blood of their sons and daughters,
Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
And the land was polluted with blood.
Thus they were defiled by their own works,
And played the harlot by their own deeds.
God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).
Homosexuality
1Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites[homosexuals], nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
Leviticus 18:22
'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
1Corinthians 6:18
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (meaning that we better not be found approving of what they are doing!)
......President Barak Obama should have the honor due him as well as the Christian's prayers but he certainly should not have the Christian's approval because of the sin he so flagrantly promotes.
I hope you might rethink your position, Fs, in light of God's word. ~Michelle
RHEMA SEEKER--AMEN MICHE
My boss who surely is not a Christian was against Obama in the beginning because of his views on abortion. So I was pleased to know this. But then yesterday at work, my boss was telling me after hearing Obama speak at his inauguration that he thought he would be the man for the job. It sickens me that people, especially so called Christians could look past the evil this man stands for because of what their wallet and bank account is telling them. Is not what this is written concerning the Antichrist will do. Promise people a prosperous life here on earth. Shame on you FS
FS-- Sorry, but I am strongly in favor of a right to choose. Too many of my fellow Christians are too concerned over the unborn as opposed to the already living. I do not believe life starts at conception.
DEBONNAIRE--Isn't the foetus living in the bossom of his mother ? How could one call him an unborn thing , and not a living human being ? What is the difference between the moment the foetus is inside her mother, and the few hours later when he is out ? isn't he the same being ? Of course he is , the only difference is that he is now a few hours older and is in a different environment.
So a baby isn't born only when he is outside the womb, when only he is 'visible' to the world.
So when is he born ? At one day after conception, , two weeks after , at 3 months after perhaps...
The only good sense says he is born at conception.
If someone has no pity on the weakest and more fragile of human beings, how can we trust such a one to have mercy with the others?
BROPATOC-- God hates "hands that shed innocent blood" (see Pr 6:16-17 KJV).
Think about it.
RHEMA SEEKER-- Its not if we believe if a fetus is living or not. It is what God says it is. And according to scripture which is put on this thread, HE SAYS IT IS LIVING BEING. And very precious in HIS EYES. So FS your point of view does not matter. It is only GOD'S POINT that matters.
FS-- Could you all get a tad more condescending, people?
Sorry brothers, but you act like abortion is the ONLY issue to worry about, along with gay rights. I dreaded Mr.Obama coming to power, but in hsi few days in office he has already done much to restore person freedom, counter governmental spying and get this country back on track. I will ut him some slack right now on the abortion and gay rights issues as there are, I think, far more pressing issues at hand right now.
I almost wish now that I would have voted for him.
MICHE-- What (and who) has convinced you that life doesn't start at conception, FS? (I'm not being sarcastic. It's an honest question.) I don't understand why you would believe that when God makes it clear in his Word that He creates a living human being in a woman's womb. Current science doesn't even disprove that life begins at conception.
Come, let us reason about this. I think it might be good to look at more scriptures concerning this subject matter(for or against it). I will try to get together some more for my side(please gather any that might support your theory). I would urge you to realize that having the wrong belief could have MAJOR implications here. Human life and Salvation could be at stake for people, FS, if you are wrong. It's not something to just casually sweep under the rug.
You do want the truth don't you? I know I do. God has had to change my mind about a lot of things at different times. I'm not ashamed of that even if it does make me look inconsistent; I'd rather have the truth than appear consistent. But instead, gladly will I humble myself in the light of the revelation of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ that I might be made wise and righteous in the Lord's sight!
Unless you are absolutely unbudgable against the possibility that God sees a baby in the womb(sorry I just can't call a growing baby a blob of tissue) as a human life in whom we are obligated to do good to and not harm then will you please consider that re-examining this issue closely is VERY worthwhile and important?
I don't know how much you have sought this particular matter out with the Lord, but God's truth is what matters here, right? So those who want to follow Christ need to be truth seekers. They can no longer be satisfied with what they have learned themselves. They need to be willing to lay aside all preconceived notions to seek out the truth and when they do discover it they must be willing to give up the false even if it is uncomfortable to do so. This is just good godly advice for everyone.
I don't know why you have come to deny that a mother ending the life of her own child for her convenience is a sin. At one point I believe that you did call it sin, didn't you? What about homosexuality? What is your current belief about that practice?(I will not assume here that is why I ask) I can see that the deceiver has been planting lies that you have received FS. In love I point this out to you. I'm concerned for you. These beliefs can't be from God.
You might be thinking, "how arrogant, how proud she is to be so sure that I am wrong and she is right!" But if I have had a revelation that I am certain is truly from God, should I not be confident enough to boast and try to convince? Not in boasting that I have had a revelation from God, but that I should only naturally boast about the Lord in truth! And so I must correct those who might listen and openly boast that my God creates and gives life to human beings at the moment of conception just as His Word declares! Hallelujah! It's really a wonderful thing...I have to give him praise for the miracle of life!
I don't want to take up any more space on Jesse's Obamanation thread(that wordplay is pretty funny by the way, Jesse!) with the more specific topic of abortion, so I would like to continue this topic of discussion on a new thread. I realize that you said you don't see it as important, but I would have to appeal to you that in fact it is. I will start up a new thread under Abortion and write more when I can.
~Michelle
P.S. Rhema Seeker, debonnaire, BroPatOC-- excellent points you made, brothers.
FS-- I was not for Obama at first, but this sounds great now that I look at it. More power to him. I am glad he is President and not some of the street preachers. That is why God purr Obama in a position of authority. Again, this sounds great to me.
MICHE--Fs, surely you agree that homosexuality is a sin right? Do you understand that abortion(stem cell research includes aborting life too) is murder in God's eyes? Even worse is that it is murder of an innocent human being. Public schools and Planned Parenthood have lied saying that a fertilized egg is just a mass of cells....but God says that is a human being that he created Himself. See for yourself what God thinks about these issues:
Abortion
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. {the term fetus may confuse some people, but the truth is that it's a live baby in there whose life needs to be nurtured and protected.}
Psalm 139:13
For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
Psalm 106:35-39
But they mingled with the Gentiles
And learned their works;
They served their idols,
Which became a snare to them.
They even sacrificed their sons
And their daughters to demons,
And shed innocent blood,
The blood of their sons and daughters,
Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
And the land was polluted with blood.
Thus they were defiled by their own works,
And played the harlot by their own deeds.
God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).
Homosexuality
1Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites[homosexuals], nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
Leviticus 18:22
'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
1Corinthians 6:18
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (meaning that we better not be found approving of what they are doing!)
......President Barak Obama should have the honor due him as well as the Christian's prayers but he certainly should not have the Christian's approval because of the sin he so flagrantly promotes.
I hope you might rethink your position, Fs, in light of God's word. ~Michelle
RHEMA SEEKER--AMEN MICHE
My boss who surely is not a Christian was against Obama in the beginning because of his views on abortion. So I was pleased to know this. But then yesterday at work, my boss was telling me after hearing Obama speak at his inauguration that he thought he would be the man for the job. It sickens me that people, especially so called Christians could look past the evil this man stands for because of what their wallet and bank account is telling them. Is not what this is written concerning the Antichrist will do. Promise people a prosperous life here on earth. Shame on you FS
FS-- Sorry, but I am strongly in favor of a right to choose. Too many of my fellow Christians are too concerned over the unborn as opposed to the already living. I do not believe life starts at conception.
DEBONNAIRE--Isn't the foetus living in the bossom of his mother ? How could one call him an unborn thing , and not a living human being ? What is the difference between the moment the foetus is inside her mother, and the few hours later when he is out ? isn't he the same being ? Of course he is , the only difference is that he is now a few hours older and is in a different environment.
So a baby isn't born only when he is outside the womb, when only he is 'visible' to the world.
So when is he born ? At one day after conception, , two weeks after , at 3 months after perhaps...
The only good sense says he is born at conception.
If someone has no pity on the weakest and more fragile of human beings, how can we trust such a one to have mercy with the others?
BROPATOC-- God hates "hands that shed innocent blood" (see Pr 6:16-17 KJV).
Think about it.
RHEMA SEEKER-- Its not if we believe if a fetus is living or not. It is what God says it is. And according to scripture which is put on this thread, HE SAYS IT IS LIVING BEING. And very precious in HIS EYES. So FS your point of view does not matter. It is only GOD'S POINT that matters.
FS-- Could you all get a tad more condescending, people?
Sorry brothers, but you act like abortion is the ONLY issue to worry about, along with gay rights. I dreaded Mr.Obama coming to power, but in hsi few days in office he has already done much to restore person freedom, counter governmental spying and get this country back on track. I will ut him some slack right now on the abortion and gay rights issues as there are, I think, far more pressing issues at hand right now.
I almost wish now that I would have voted for him.
MICHE-- What (and who) has convinced you that life doesn't start at conception, FS? (I'm not being sarcastic. It's an honest question.) I don't understand why you would believe that when God makes it clear in his Word that He creates a living human being in a woman's womb. Current science doesn't even disprove that life begins at conception.
Come, let us reason about this. I think it might be good to look at more scriptures concerning this subject matter(for or against it). I will try to get together some more for my side(please gather any that might support your theory). I would urge you to realize that having the wrong belief could have MAJOR implications here. Human life and Salvation could be at stake for people, FS, if you are wrong. It's not something to just casually sweep under the rug.
You do want the truth don't you? I know I do. God has had to change my mind about a lot of things at different times. I'm not ashamed of that even if it does make me look inconsistent; I'd rather have the truth than appear consistent. But instead, gladly will I humble myself in the light of the revelation of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ that I might be made wise and righteous in the Lord's sight!
Unless you are absolutely unbudgable against the possibility that God sees a baby in the womb(sorry I just can't call a growing baby a blob of tissue) as a human life in whom we are obligated to do good to and not harm then will you please consider that re-examining this issue closely is VERY worthwhile and important?
I don't know how much you have sought this particular matter out with the Lord, but God's truth is what matters here, right? So those who want to follow Christ need to be truth seekers. They can no longer be satisfied with what they have learned themselves. They need to be willing to lay aside all preconceived notions to seek out the truth and when they do discover it they must be willing to give up the false even if it is uncomfortable to do so. This is just good godly advice for everyone.
I don't know why you have come to deny that a mother ending the life of her own child for her convenience is a sin. At one point I believe that you did call it sin, didn't you? What about homosexuality? What is your current belief about that practice?(I will not assume here that is why I ask) I can see that the deceiver has been planting lies that you have received FS. In love I point this out to you. I'm concerned for you. These beliefs can't be from God.
You might be thinking, "how arrogant, how proud she is to be so sure that I am wrong and she is right!" But if I have had a revelation that I am certain is truly from God, should I not be confident enough to boast and try to convince? Not in boasting that I have had a revelation from God, but that I should only naturally boast about the Lord in truth! And so I must correct those who might listen and openly boast that my God creates and gives life to human beings at the moment of conception just as His Word declares! Hallelujah! It's really a wonderful thing...I have to give him praise for the miracle of life!
I don't want to take up any more space on Jesse's Obamanation thread(that wordplay is pretty funny by the way, Jesse!) with the more specific topic of abortion, so I would like to continue this topic of discussion on a new thread. I realize that you said you don't see it as important, but I would have to appeal to you that in fact it is. I will start up a new thread under Abortion and write more when I can.
~Michelle
P.S. Rhema Seeker, debonnaire, BroPatOC-- excellent points you made, brothers.