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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 1, 2007 7:05:50 GMT -5
I found this site from the Consuming Fire site, our brothers in California: www.overcomeevil.com/It looks awesome! It has lots of good articles on open air preaching, on theology, and has some great links to other websites. It's worth checking out.
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Post by danlirette on Jul 2, 2007 21:44:02 GMT -5
Brother Jesse, if you go to the site you linked to above and click on "Be Baptized" you'll notice immediately upon reading their articles that they are Baptismal Regenerationists....I'm not sure we should be endorsing such ministries, Brother Jesse Here's just one of their many articles on the topic: Baptism is… Baptism is how we get into Christ. Baptism is always accompanied by faith and repentance. Baptism is God’s terms of surrender. Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel. Baptism is the external washing with water and the internal washing away of sin by God. Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.” Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ. Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours) Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.Baptism is when we are reborn.Baptism is an act of faith. Baptism is how we enter the kingdom of God.Baptism is when we are added to the body of Christ (the church). Baptism is when we exchange our life for His. Baptism is when we die to ourselves and come alive in Christ. Baptism is the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the starting gun of a race of a new life. Baptism is proclaiming in Christ the resurrection of the dead. Baptism is when the old dies and the new arises. In this manner we become saved.Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus. Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ. Baptism is how we scripturally enter into a relationship with Christ.Baptism is the gavel striking the bench proclaiming forgiveness of sins, the end of the old and the birth of the new. BAPTISM: is done FOR the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) is done to SAVE us (1Peter 3:21, Acts 2:40, Mark 16:16) Is done to WASH AWAY OUR SINS (Acts 22:16) is done to be REBORN to new life (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-6) is done to CLOTHE ourselves with Christ (Gal 3:26-27) is done so that GOD will RESURRECT us from death (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:3-6) is done as a REQUIRMENT to enter heaven (John 3:5, Mark 16:16) is done to put us INTO CHRIST (Romans 6:3-6, Galatians 3:26-27, 1Corinthians 12:13) When accompanied by faith and repentance, baptism (immersion) is how and when our sins are washed away. If it is not done for the purpose of washing our sins away (Acts 22:16), it is not the ONE baptism of the New Testament (Ephesians 4:4-5) and therefore the “baptism” is invalid. It needs to be done in the correct, Scriptural manner. When Jesus died on the cross, He, who had no sin, paid the death penalty for our sins. Through baptism we are united, or joined with Christ in paying the death penalty for sin. We are baptized into His death, into the death penalty for sin. We, who are unable to return from death because we have sin, are joined to Christ—and since Christ is sinless and was victorious over death, we, now being united with Him through baptism, are made victorious being united with Christ in His resurrection. Now if God allows us to participate in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (an event which occurred 2000 years ago), through baptism, it can truly be said we are saved through faith and God’s grace! Baptism can be likened to the Israelites coming up out of the land of slavery, passing through the Red Sea and entering the Promised Land. Baptism can be likened to passing through the flood of Noah. Baptism is about leaving our old sinful, worldly ways behind and taking upon our shoulders the yoke of Christ. It is about lifestyle change and dying to ourselves and doing God’s will instead of ours. Our reason and purpose for living changes after baptism. Afterward is a new way of life. Baptism is about heart, faith, total commitment, surrender, self-denial, death, resurrection, repentance, and seeking God’s mercy through Jesus Christ and the work He did on that cross on that day of infamy 2000 years ago. See also *Romans 6:3-5 Baptism IS the gospel!
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Jul 2, 2007 22:50:56 GMT -5
I had a few similar concerns as well.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 5, 2007 0:41:59 GMT -5
Well, the parts of the site that I really liked are the sections called:
"Sin No More"
"Open Air Preaching"
"True Revival"
"Theology"
"Once Saved Always Saved"
And
"Born Sinful"
Of coarse, I haven't read the whole site, nor everything in the sections I just listed. But no doubt this site can be used as a great resource for many issues.
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Post by danlirette on Jul 5, 2007 7:45:13 GMT -5
No doubt they do have great writings... They use R A Torrey etc etc.... which is odd, seeing they are Baptismal Regenerationists.
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Post by overcomeevil on Jul 5, 2007 14:21:36 GMT -5
Hello everyone. My name is Michael Lewthwaite and I am the author of the website here mentioned, www.OvercomeEvil.comIt seems that there is some misunderstanding about what my website teaches. It has been said that my website promotes “Baptismal Regeneration.” I am surprised at this and do deny this completely, as Baptismal Regeneration is a great heresy! It is good that we define our terms before going any further. The teaching of “Baptismal Regeneration” is the teaching that a person is “saved by baptism regardless of faith.” This is the doctrine of the Catholic Church and all who believe in “infant baptism.” They believe that one enters the church of God by baptism alone. A good way to let you see this is to quote from Charles Spurgeon who was contending against this truly heretical doctrine! Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon entitled “Baptismal Regeneration.” In it you can plainly see what “Baptismal Regeneration is” and what we are to truly fight against. “We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that "he that believeth not shall be damned:" so that baptism does not save the unbeliever, nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly. We meet with persons who, when we tell them that they must be born again, assure us that they were born again when they were baptized. How can any man stand up in his pulpit and say Ye must be born again to his congregation, when he has already assured them, by his own "unfeigned assent and consent" to it, that they are themselves, every one of them, born again in baptism. Who are you, that you should rebuke me? Call me to repentance? Call me to a new life? What better life can I have? for I am a member of Christ—a part of Christ's body. ” Now you can see that clearly the doctrine Spurgeon was fighting against was the one which taught that “baptism saves an unrepentant unbeliever.” By saying that he would start by saying that “baptism without faith saves no one” lets us know that he was confronting the doctrine that says “baptism without faith does save anyone.” There were many who believed that because they had gone under water at some point in their life that they had been saved. This is not true and I do not believe nor teach this heresy. If you take time to go through the material on the website you will find that it teaches no such thing. What is taught is that Baptism is the biblical means by which we exercise our true faith and repentance towards Jesus, Calling upon the name of the Lord! Without truly hearing and understanding the gospel, believing the gospel fully, and repenting and fully turning from all known sin you are merely washing some filth off your flesh in baptism. So let no man misunderstand my position. “Without Holiness No Man Shall See the Lord!” Baptized or not baptized! I am not alone in this belief. Adam Clarke and John Wesley himself believed this. In fact I will here sum up my belief with the commentaries of Adam Clarke and John Wesley. Whoever said “this website says that you receive the Spirit at baptism” please look at John Wesley’s comment below. Comment by Adam Clarke on Baptism in his commentary “Noah and his family were saved by water; i.e. it was the instrument of their being saved through the good providence of God. So the water of baptism, typifying the regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit, is the means of salvation to all those who receive this Holy Spirit in its quickening, cleansing efficacy. Now as the waters of the flood could not have saved Noah and his family, had they not made use of the ark; so the water of baptism saves no man, but as it is the means of his getting his heart purified by the Holy Spirit, and typifying to him that purification.” Adam Clarke’s Commentary I Peter 3:21 Comments on Baptism by John Wesley from his “Notes on the Bible” 1Co 12:13 - For by that one Spirit, which we received in baptism, we are all united in one body. Rom 6:3 - As many as have been baptized into Jesus Christ have been baptized into his death - In baptism we, through faith, are ingrafted into Christ; and we draw new spiritual life from this new root, through his Spirit, who fashions us like unto him, and particularly with regard to his death and resurrection. Gal 3:27 - For as many of you as have testified your faith by being baptized in the name of Christ, have put on Christ - Have received him as your righteousness, and are therefore sons of God through him. I have not put bookends on my theology so if any one believes my thoughts and teaching to be wrong please do send some scriptures or show me how I am wrong. For now, I see Christ getting up on the soapbox saying “Whoever repents and is baptized shall be saved” along with peter responding to the crowd who is wondering what they should do now that they are convicted of their sin “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Who am I to get up behind Christ, the head of the Church, and Peter, one of the greatest Apostles and say “just believe and repent, baptism is not necessary.” I teach the whole council of God. One last thought. Many in fighting against salvation by works (brought to us by the catholic church) fell far into antinomianism. They were right in going against salvation by works but they went to far by preaching faith alone without works. This we all know and it is why we teach men must “repent of their sins.” So too this doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration (brought to us by the Catholic Church) is being fought against. Don’t let us do as many have done in the past by throwing out the good with the bad. It is a horrible thing, Baptismal Regeneration, but baptism itself was commanded by Christ. In fact, all you street preachers, Christ’s commission to us was to “Go and make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” HOW ARE YOU MAKING DISCIPLES OF MEN? Through a little prayer? Lets get back to the scriptures. Hearing the Word of God, Believing the Word of God, Repenting from all sin, Being Baptized, and continuing in a Godly life are all conditions of salvation as taught in the scriptures! A Servant of Christ, Michael Lewthwaite The church in Garden City www.OvercomeEvil.com
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Post by danlirette on Jul 5, 2007 15:44:19 GMT -5
Water Baptism comes after you meet the conditions of Salvation, namely, Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance....Baptism is not a condition of Salvation as you say in this thread: You say: Being Baptized, and continuing in a Godly life are all conditions of salvation as taught in the scriptures! Response: Water Baptism never was and never shall be a "condition" to Salvation; water Baptism, certainly, is more than a ritual, but it is in no way a "condition" of Salvation. (1 Peter 3:21 tells us it does not put away the filth of the flesh but gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God). Friend, keep pressing in to the Scriptures
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Post by robdog on Jul 7, 2007 18:29:37 GMT -5
Nice site, some great resources...
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 8, 2007 12:35:33 GMT -5
Lots of good resources there brother. Thanks...
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Post by danlirette on Jul 8, 2007 14:53:01 GMT -5
These are also some resources from this same site; I pray my posting of them might be of benefit to warn the Flock of false Brethren who turn the Grace of God into a works based Righteousness. Having Finney and Torrey and others on your site when your site has DOZENS of articles preaching Baptismal Regeneration clearly stating if you are not Baptized FOR Salvation then you are not saved...well, that doesn't fiz me. The site is heretical by all standards, AOG,PAOC, Brethren, Vineyard, etc etc...and it's heretical to the Word of God. If you agree with or promote thsi wicked ministry site then you are partakers of the deceptions of this ministry site. UPC's, ICOC and many other Baptismal Regenerationists teach NOTHING different from this Ministry, and by simply taking the actual time to read the articles on water baptism, where it is stated dozens of times in each and every article that it is water baptism that initiates Salvation and is a condition for Salvation, one sees the picture pretty clearly. I'm not one to separate from Baptists, Pentecostals, Mennonites etc etc... I can and do fellowship with many of these Brethren; however, when one claims, dozens of times, that water baptism is a condition of Salvation, that person is preaching another Gospel; plain and simple. See for yourself before making comments... and if you make comments, show me how this Ministry site is not teaching Salvation by water...comment on the articles themselves and come to a conclusion and post it here... but Brethren, beware of promoting a site when you haven;t gone through all of it, after being shown and told the false gospel they're preaching. Go to the articles.... read them. If this site preaches the True Gospel then Finney, Jesse, Wilkerson, myself, Revk and millions of others preach a false Gospel. We're simply preaching two different messages as this will show, from their site on Water baptism: www.bebaptized.org
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 8, 2007 15:16:30 GMT -5
I appreciate your concern Dan. I will most likely read through some more of www.bebaptized.org as I already have read some of it. I am not by any means saying that I endorse everything from the website www.overcomeevil.com, just as I don't endorse everything from just about any site I link to on my website: www.pinpointevangelism.com/links1.htm I am just saying that there are lots of good resources...that's all. For example, I use some of John MacArthur's stuff on my website. That doesn't mean that I support him wholeheartedly either. On the contrary, he is a 5 point calvinist and I am a zero point calvinist. He is a dispensational pre-tribber and I am currently a post-tribber. As far as baptism is concerned, I am becoming more and more convinced that it is more important then I have believed in the past. I don't think it saves you by any means, but I do think it is a command by God just like every other command of God. If one refuses to be baptized, I would question whether they are saved or not. BUT, again, it is not a requirement as shown by the thief on the cross. In all honesty, I think the sinner's prayer and the altar call have taken the place of water baptism. Baptism was meant to be the sign that one had become a Christian, not a prayer or a wooden altar at the front of a Church. Baptism, according to Scripture and the Early Church was when someone officially became a Christian. Just some thoughts...
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Post by danlirette on Jul 8, 2007 15:20:23 GMT -5
Rev, I agree with you about baptism; I believe it is essential to the Christian Faith more than what is being taught in churches.
The issue here is that this site promotes a false gospel; a false way to be saved, and we know what Paul says about those who preach any other gospel.
This isn;t about secondary doctrine; it's about salvation, as they themselves claim water baptism is a condition of being Born Again.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 8, 2007 15:52:56 GMT -5
The issue here is that this site promotes a false gospel; a false way to be saved, and we know what Paul says about those who preach any other gospel. This isn't about secondary doctrine; it's about salvation, as they themselves claim water baptism is a condition of being Born Again. This I agree with. I don't endorse all sites that www.overcomeevil.com links to. I DO think that this site has lots of good resources though. I think that www.bebaptized.org is no good as far as I have read...
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 8, 2007 16:13:23 GMT -5
Here are some discussion scriptures for us to look at? so we can rightly divide the Word of God's truth on the Important subject?
Is Baptism really essential?
Mark 16:16 He that believeth "and" is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be d**ned.
This verse makes it clear that baptism is necessary for salvation after I believed not [acting upon God's truth] when the Truth comes, no matter of what God's requirements are.{Baptism being one of them}.
or what I would Call growing in Grace of Truth once presented. And Decline His grace after being saved. [we do have freewill after salvation]
Example ; I go to a revival meeting, Day 1 of 7, I am convicted of my sins, and repent [except Jesus as my Saviour]. I hear nothing yet of Baptism. On Day 7 of the meeting, the truth of being Baptized is exposed, and I refuse.
I go Home that night, and I have a heart attack and Die.
Question, Am I saved.
Next situation, On Day 7 again, I except the message, and I choose baptism, and on my way to be baptized, I have the heart attack and Die.
Question, am I saved.
The Thief on the Cross, does answer my second question, He was nailed to the Cross. If He was pardoned, and came down a free man, do we think he would have obeyed His Lord, to Obey or not.
It is not so much a condition to be saved, but a condition of Loss of Salvation, due to disobedience to the Command of the Lord.
I personally believe, The problem exists due to the fact of the "once saved "always saved" so they make it a condition of salvation, not a Loss of Salvation, issue. Since No one can be loss-ed after excepting Christ.
The Thief's circumstances made it a human impossibility for the their on the cross to be baptized.
What must a person do to prepare for baptism?
A) Learn God's requirements. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them... Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. "Matthew 28:19,20"
B) Believe the truth of God's Word. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16"
C) Repent of and turn away from his sins and experience conversion. "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. Acts 3:19
A Christian that repents of their sins, are saved on the Spot, but as I grow in Knowledge of God's Word, and refuse to get Baptized, the Bible is Clear, I will lose my salvation, do to Lawlessness.
It is a very serious issue. Souls are at stake.
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Post by danlirette on Jul 8, 2007 18:06:41 GMT -5
I was saved the day the Lord's Spirit convicted me of my sin and need for Jesus Christ.I repented and placed my Faith in Jesus Christ and knew beyond a shadow of a doubt if I died at that moment I would be with Christ in Glory.
That was in a jail cell...and I spent almost 2 years there when I was converted.
Water Baptized? No, not at that point.
Saved? Yes, by the Blood of Jesus.
THAT was when I was Born Again; completely and fully.
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 8, 2007 19:20:35 GMT -5
Dan, praise the Lord for your trust and faith in Jesus. I do not doubt your conversion what so ever. Or that you were saved once you excepted Jesus Christ. Amen.
And if you were not able to be baptized because of the Circumstances, It is just like the Thief on the Cross. Amen
Did you get baptized [Immersion] when you were able?
TrustandObey
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Post by danlirette on Jul 8, 2007 21:47:01 GMT -5
Yes, brother... I was baptized many years ago, by Full Immersion, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the late Pastor Jack Long.
I believe the Blood alone saves.
Praise God!
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Post by overcomeevil on Jul 8, 2007 22:25:44 GMT -5
I WANT YOU ALL TO LOOK AT THIS ILLUSTRATION.
I want to use an illustration I pray you will all pay close attention to.
In Leviticus ch. 6 the Old Testament speaks of a man who has taken something away from his neighbor through violence. He has stolen from this man and sinned. It explains the mans situation and then TELLS WHAT THIS MAN NEEDS TO DO IN ORDER TO BE FORGIVEN.
1. He obviously needs to recognize his sin and turn from it REPENT 2. He needs to restore what he stole with a fifth added to it 3. He needs to Take a ram without blemish from his flock for sacrifice 4. The Priest needs to make atonement for Him.
Now, AFTER he does all these things, the scriptures say, “HE WILL BE FORGIVEN”
So now lets use the hypothetical which everyone loves so much.
Say a man has committed this sin of theft. He deeply repents of his sin and restores what he stole and even adds double to the man he harmed because he is so sorrowful with godly sorrow. He then chooses the best of all his rams, fit for a king, to bring to sacrifice for his sin.
But then, on the way to make atonement, another thief sees the beautiful ram and decides to kill the man and take it from him. The man lies there in his blood lifeless and unable to make the atonement which was required for forgiveness.
How do you answer the question, “WILL THIS MAN BE FORGIVEN?”
Well let me give you my answer.
I personally believe in the great mercy of God who “LOOKS UPON THE HEART” and knows all things. I believe that I will see that man in heaven. BUT… BUT…. BUT…
I cannot stand in the place of a minister of God and now say “IT IS NOT REALLY A REQUIREMENT THAT THE PRIEST MAKE ATONEMENT FOR YOU, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE TRULY REPENTED YOU WILL BE FORGIVEN.”
You see, I have no scriptural authority to say that. And if I did preach that, what do you think would be the result? Well many would put off making the journey to sacrifice. They would say to themselves, “Well, the weather isn’t really that nice for traveling right now, and the preacher said I’m really forgiven without this, so I think I will do this part when the weather clears up or the situation is more favorable.
I pray you are seeing what I am getting at here.
This is what has been done to baptism. BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT GOD LOOKS UPON THE HEART AND WILL FORGIVE A MAN WHO DOESN’T HAVE A CHANCE TO OBEY CERTAIN COMMANDS, WE HAVE PREACHED THAT THESE COMMANDS ARE NOT NECCESARRY. We have made a very great error.
Now we stand behind Jesus and Peter and tell the people exactly opposite of what they said. We tell them baptism is not necessary because God only looks on the heart. What does this produce? Many people who “get saved” and say, “I will wait till a nice day when I can go to the lake and my family can be their, etc…” You can find this nowhere in Scripture. As soon as they heard the word they were baptized! Why, why the immediacy of this baptism? Because they preached what Christ told them to preach “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” and the people were smart enough to understand what that meant and asked “where is there water so I can be baptized?”
Now many of you are thinking that I believe that all who are not baptized will be roasting. Again, I will not say that. There are many ignorant people out there that do not understand the importance of this command and are not in willful rebellion. John 9:41 says that “If ye were blind ye would have no sin” which means, if you really did not understand this requirement then ommiting it will not be sin to you! But we are not those who are ignorant.
You know what Christ and Peter said! Now go preach it. After telling someone they have crucified the Lord with their sins and they ask you “what must I do to be saved” you need to respond like Peter and say “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.” Leave nothing out but preach the whole council of God!
Mike Lewthwaite
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 8, 2007 22:36:27 GMT -5
That's a good post brother...
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Post by danlirette on Jul 9, 2007 7:55:07 GMT -5
Overcomeevil, that is a good illustration.
I believe in water baptism.
I believe it gives the answer of a good conscience towards God.
I believe it is our identification with Christ.
I believe water baptism should be immediate upon Repentance and Faith in Jesus Christ.
I do not believe it is a condition of Salvation.
To receive the FILLING (not Indwelling) of the Holy Spirit one must first be saved... I see here that before water baptism these Believers were already filled with the Holy Ghost and we water baptized after Peter saw what God was doing in these precious Saints.
They were saved before, not post, water baptism, and they could have been baptized before receiving the Holy Spirit since nothing stopped them.... however, God had already saved them, showing water baptism was not a condition of His Saving them at all in any sense.
Peter was astonished that God poured out His Spirit on these people...
We also realize and understand that God does not Fill a man with His Holy Spirit until that man has Repented and placed his Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation.
We understand that one must be Born Again prior to receiving the Filling of the Holy Spirit; you must first have received the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which comes immediately at Conversion (John 20:22) before you can receive the Filling of the Holy Spirit, which comes after Conversion (Acts 2:1-4).
Yes, it is a command to be water baptized... one must obey the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen!
It is not, however, a command due to condition of Salvation, as we clearly see here:
Acts 10:43-48 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
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Post by overcomeevil on Jul 9, 2007 15:13:30 GMT -5
If one refuses to be baptized, I would question whether they are saved or not. BUT, again, it is not a requirement as shown by the thief on the cross. In all honesty, I think the sinner's prayer and the altar call have taken the place of water baptism.... Revk, I appreciated your post and understanding that the sinners prayer and altar call haver replaced baptism. I wanted to make a comment on what you said about the theif on the cross. You stated that because it was not required for him then it is not required for us. I believe that there is a fallacy in this statement. Would you say that because this man was not able to repay those he stole from that this is not required either? No, it was not required for him because he was not in a position to be able to repay. God meets you where you are at. The gentiles needed to have proof that God accepted them and God gave it to them by baptizing them with the Spirit before baptism. Just because this happened in one peticular case does not mean that it is how it is supposed to happen. God did not require the thief to be baptized because he was not able to be baptized. But now if you stand and preach to sinners today and say "repent and be baptized, there is a pool down the street, come let us go and fullfill the commands of Christ" and the man says "ill go later" then he is sinning. Delayed obedience is disobedience. So just because one many was not required to be baptized because of his special situation (he was hanging on a cross for crying out loud lol) does not mean that it is not required for those who are able to keep the command. Mike lewthwaite
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 9, 2007 17:29:55 GMT -5
If one refuses to be baptized, I would question whether they are saved or not. BUT, again, it is not a requirement as shown by the thief on the cross. In all honesty, I think the sinner's prayer and the altar call have taken the place of water baptism.... Revk, I appreciated your post and understanding that the sinners prayer and altar call haver replaced baptism. I wanted to make a comment on what you said about the theif on the cross. You stated that because it was not required for him then it is not required for us. I believe that there is a fallacy in this statement. Would you say that because this man was not able to repay those he stole from that this is not required either? No, it was not required for him because he was not in a position to be able to repay. God meets you where you are at. The gentiles needed to have proof that God accepted them and God gave it to them by baptizing them with the Spirit before baptism. Just because this happened in one peticular case does not mean that it is how it is supposed to happen. God did not require the thief to be baptized because he was not able to be baptized. But now if you stand and preach to sinners today and say "repent and be baptized, there is a pool down the street, come let us go and fullfill the commands of Christ" and the man says "ill go later" then he is sinning. Delayed obedience is disobedience. So just because one many was not required to be baptized because of his special situation (he was hanging on a cross for crying out loud lol) does not mean that it is not required for those who are able to keep the command. Mike lewthwaite I appreciate your comments Mike. Maybe I should clarify myself...although we may just end up disagreeing. I believe that ALL obedience that a person is able to offer up to God is IN THE END a requirement for salvation and eternal life. Repentance and Faith is all that is required for someone to become Born Again though. This is what I see in Scripture and what I have seen by experience. IF someone knows that God commands them to be baptized and they refuse to get baptized, then YES, it is sin ( James 4:17). They need to repent, lest they perish. This shows they they truly haven't repented of ALL known sin...and as I said, Repentance is one of the requirements for salvation. Actually, it I want to put it more simply, all that is required for salvation is one thing: Repentant Faith. If you are going to say that Baptism is required for salvation, then you might as well say that works are required as well since faith without works is dead ( James 2:17) and since God saved us unto good works ( Eph. 2:10). This seems to go directly against what Ephesians 2:8 says. BUT, just as with Baptism, if someone called themself a Christian and didn't have good works, then I would conclude that this person may not be saved. God Bless...
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 9, 2007 19:46:08 GMT -5
My faithful friends in Christ
What must I do if I have discovered truth and wish to live my life in harmony with God?
Since Jesus is the way the truth and the life, John14:6
My actions must be determined by His revealed will. The Scriptures are our guide, and only thru them do we learn of follow in the footsteps of Jesus.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
What Light?
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
What great command [commission] are we given?
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that "believeth" and is "baptized" shall be saved; but he that believeth not[refuses] puts off - shall be d**ned.
IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. [The Devils believe and tremble] One must live it. [our works played out in life. shows our faith]
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew[No personal relationship] you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [Lawlessness] did not comply with Jesus Will.
The Word iniquity is used here, is translated for the Greek "anomia" transgressing the law,
Which we have only one definition.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
Those who enter into the new covenant relationship with God will wish to keep the law because they understand the principle of love embodied in the law.
Obedience is better than the fat of rams, and in keeping the law there is great reward:
It is not enough to have a theoretical knowledge of the Law or to keep it because we know it is right (legalism). The law must be kept from the heart, it must become part of the character,
I believe before being touched by the Grace of God and the workings of His Spirit, it is impossible to obey God and Keep His requirements.
Keeping of the Law, but without Christ this translates into a form of godliness, but denying the Power [Grace] eph 3:7 thereof.
It is the spirit of God that enables us to live in harmony with the will of God.
Here in John 3:5, Jesus is discussing the nature of the spiritual rebirth
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water[Immersion] and of the Spirit[Holy Spirit]{Titus 3:5}[produces Sanctification][1 Thes 4:3], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
1 Thess 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence [passionate lust], even as the Gentiles which know not God:
Baptism is the outward sign of the acceptance of the covenant relationship with God, the New covenant that God promised to spiritual Israel.
Jeremiah 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:8-10
Psalm 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
What Covenant?
Psalm 78:10 They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
To speak that Baptism is not required to those who can be baptized, is destroying Souls to Hellfire.
This is a very serious matter! Please consider what we preach and teach. Amen
TrustandObey
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Post by danlirette on Jul 9, 2007 21:39:37 GMT -5
One must first be saved before he can obey God.
God must be the One who alone causes one to obey the Call to be Saved.
Then, God also keeps that individual by His Grace, causing that individual to walk in His Ways.
The first step of a New Christian is to be water baptized immediately.
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Post by sean on Jul 9, 2007 22:09:10 GMT -5
The website links to SDA sites.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 9, 2007 23:23:46 GMT -5
The website links to SDA sites. I guess you are referring to the page on Hell. I would DEFINITELY disagree with this website on that. That is the only SDA link that I could see. The SDAers seem to be swarming this MB lately. The funny thing is that the website also has a link to an online version of Josh McDowell's Cult Reference Book. In it, it talks about JW's false view on Hell...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 10, 2007 10:12:41 GMT -5
I've been running into them on the street as well...
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Post by overcomeevil on Jul 10, 2007 12:00:40 GMT -5
The website links to SDA sites. If you will read the NOTE IN RED on the home page you will understand. Please Note: We have linked to quite a few different websites in relation to what we believe is the truth of Gods Word on certain doctrines. Just because we have chosen to link to a particular site or group does not mean we endorse everything on that site or from that group. We only endorse the topic which we have linked to from our site. Don't be alarmed, just remember, we only endorse as correct doctrine the specific one to which we have linked. Mike
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Post by alan4jc on Jul 10, 2007 13:22:26 GMT -5
Mike, why link to any cults at all? Unless you are trying to expose them.
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Post by blynn on Jul 10, 2007 13:57:36 GMT -5
alan4jc I was wondering the same thing
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