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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2006 16:56:13 GMT -5
I wanted to get a feel for what everyone here believes concerning eternal security (a.k.a. once saved, always saved & perseverance of the saints).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 10, 2006 17:34:58 GMT -5
Well, I believe that the wages of sin is death. And that whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God.
I believe in conditional eternal security. You are eternally secure if you met the conditions of Christ, like faith, repentance and holiness. But UNCONDITONAL eternal security is simply not sound doctrine.
I have recently started underlining verses in my bible against "once saved, always saved" and will list those sometime soon hopefully. Ones like "Beware Brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God". This scripture is for brethren regarding backsliding. I also see the entire letter of Jude refuting "Once Saved, Always Saved" and Hebrews 10:26 couldn't be any clearer. But I will list all the scriptures soon hopefully.
I also just preached a sermon in a Church on Conditional Security and Holiness. That audio will be added to the website soon.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2006 17:41:32 GMT -5
Jesse, I agree with what you're saying about conditional eternal security. If there are those here who disagree I think it will be profittable to discuss these various Scriptures.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 10, 2006 19:11:43 GMT -5
Unconditional eternal security sounds like an itching ear message to me. "You don't have to do anything at all, and go to heaven. You don't have to have faith, you don't have to repent, you don't have to live holy, you can do whatever it is that you want to do and don't have to worry about being punished for it in hell."
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2006 19:27:35 GMT -5
I think the problem is that salvation is considered as only an experience and not as a living relationship.
Jesus emphasized that it's more than a one time event in John 15:5-6:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
There are numerous passages that speak in this manner. Your eternal security is conditioned on your remaining in Christ.
I would also say that there are two kinds of OSAS teachers. There are those who are practically antinomian like you've said and there are others (R. Comfort, J. MacArthur) who emphasize that a true believer will live holy. Although I disagree with OSAS in both cases I can tolerate the second view.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 10, 2006 19:47:58 GMT -5
I sure don't believe in "Once saved, always saved". Jesus said "Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say". Luke 6:46.
"Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of my Father which is in Heaven." Matthew 7:21
How about 2 Peter 2:20-21, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
And 2 Peter 3:17, "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware, lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." Why did Peter warn them? It was possible for them to fall away that's why. If they did fall away their latter end would have been worse than when they came to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and that end was hell. Romans 2:5-6 says you can treasure up for yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God who will render unto every man according to his deeds.
1 John 3:3, "and every man that has this hope in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF EVEN AS HE IS PURE."
2 Corinthians 7:1, "Having therefore these promises dearly beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
"...WITHOUT HOLINESS NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD." Hebrews 12:14
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 10, 2006 19:51:46 GMT -5
MacArthur teaches that sometimes but other times contradicts that by saying the Romans 7 preconversion experience of Paul is the best a Christian can have in this life.
Of course he (MacArthur) doesn't believe Paul is talking about his preconversion experience.
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Post by Travis M Chapman on Jan 10, 2006 20:16:20 GMT -5
I would like to chime in and say that I DO believe in OSAS. I think the problem may lie in the fact that individuals don't understand the biblical concept. What most people think is "So you are saved and can continue to do whatever you want." People start off with a faulty foundation, and therefore the building is real shaky, which can easily be demolished. OSAS or aka Eternal Security is very biblical and I think it is very important. Some say the doctrine in not a primary issue and I would agree but I think that it is probably after the essential doctrines of the faith, the most important. I'll try to share more as I have time and think of things. For starters we have to ask ourselves how long is 'everlasting' as found in John 3:16. This is one of my favorite proof texts for OSAS. Is everlasting 2 weeks, 7 months, 173 years? How long is it? This is a subject that should be debated with love and with a open heart towards the scriptures. We all have pre-assumptions and need to lay them down and come to God's word as a scientist with white gloves on looking to only examine and observe the facts which is the Word of God. I think outside of the Gospel message the OSAS is great news. IMPORTANT: When I say OSAS or eternal security, a true Christian will seek the things of God, live a holy life, will not love the things of the world, and will hate sin and only want to please the Father. I'll close for right now with a quick story: Several men working on a bridge had fallen to their deaths. As you can imagine the production of the crew left to continue working on the bridge almost came to a halt due to fear of falling to their death. The foreman in his wisdom decided to cast a net underneath the bridge to catch those who might accidentally slip and fall. This gave the crew much confidence and assurance that they could work up to their potential in safety and if they happened to fall, their was safety. Production tripled dramatically more than their previous projects and believe it or not no one ever fell nor did they have the desire to. This topic makes for great discussion. I will admit that I could be wrong in my beliefs and if I am I am willing to take the side of scripture. But scripture seems to indicate OSAS and I really do think that I am right. You guys have some great posts and scriptures listed. Look forward to posting more!
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 10, 2006 21:12:56 GMT -5
Ahhh...once saved, always saved....probably the most debated topic EVER in Christendom. Well, I am one who does believe in it. However I don't think that a True Christian can go on sinning. They will not because they have the seed of God abiding within them 1 John 3:9. So, I guess that I would be one of the "Perseverance of the Saints" people. I have actually been on both sides of this issue. Early on as a new Chrisitan, I believed that someone Could lose their salvation. But, when I started reading the Scriptures objectively and with an open mind...letting the Spirit teach me I found much more evidence in the other direction. Then I went to the OSAS crowd and found that many people weren't living a life of Holiness. On the other hand, in the crowd that said you could lose your salvation, there was a lot of legalism, self-righteousness, pride and hypocrisy as well. I am speaking in generalities of course, so what I just said doesn't apply to everyone by any means. I will definitely post more about this later when I have time. But, I WILL say this: Those who believe in the OSAS the way I do say that if you continue in sin or practice sin then you were never saved in the first place. Those who are against OSAS say that you have lost your salvation if you continue in sin after being "saved". The common ground that we have is that the end in the same for those type of people: the person is lost and on their way to Hell...
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 10, 2006 21:23:22 GMT -5
Thanks for your input and heart in discussing the issue.
In reference to your John 3:16 point about "everlasting", being a reference to time, like "how long", Jesus said in John 17:3 that life eternal was knowing Him. I think the emphasis was on relationship and not time.
1 John 2:3-4, "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that says he knows Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."
We know where liars end up (Revelation 21:8). See also 1 John 5:20.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 10, 2006 21:34:04 GMT -5
Travis,
You have well said that we often oppose a teaching based on what we think it is and not on what the teaching actually is. Discussions of this kind do serve the purpose of clarifying what each side believes. I think we will all benefit if we approach this in genuine humility recognizing that greater minds than ours have debated this topic for centuries. To be sure there are difficult passages that are used as "proof" texts for both sides so we'll have to see where we our reading our theology into the text and where we're not. Also, I personally don't know any Greek or Hebrew so I'm working from English translations. I look forward to your posts on this topic. I'm pressed for time right now, but I'll have a response to the question of "everlasting" life tomorrow.
Rev K,
I agree with you 100% in regards to the fact that whether they never were saved or have lost their salvation they are presently lost. Indeed evangelism is of far greater worth than theological debate. Also, you are right on in showing the errors on both sides (legalism & license). I appreciate your perspective on this issue.
Steve
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Travis M Chapman In Texas
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Post by Travis M Chapman In Texas on Jan 10, 2006 22:09:02 GMT -5
A few questions that sometimes run thru my head when I think about this issue for someone who might be opposed to the "OSAS" (I don't like the term because to some it conjures up the thought of a license to sin) belief or thinking thru the debate:
1. Who do you personally know who lost their salvation? How do you know that? 2. Have you ever lost you salvation? Were you really 'saved' in the first place? 3. How does one lose their salvation? What sin can one commit that will cause the loss of salvation?
One of my favorite verses in the bible is Eph. 2:8,9 because 11 years ago when I became a Christian and I felt ok I'm going to heaven today if I die, but I gotta keep up the work and try to be real good. But the following Saturday at a bible study the teacher covered this vs. and simply said if their is no amount of works you can do to merit the gift of eternal life what amount of works can you do to lose it. This didn't register in my mind as great, now I can continue on sinning but registered as great now I can just be myself without being uptight. It was freeing. Though I do believe in OSAS, I think the balance I try to find is staying away from the extreme of legalism and the extreme of total liberty. 1 John 2:1 we see the original J.C. as the advocate. Not Johnny Cochran, but Jesus Christ as the advocate of the believer. John says I write this to you so that you will not sin, but in-case you do we have an advocate, Jesus Christ.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jan 10, 2006 22:11:33 GMT -5
Good points. Yeah, I think I have most in the NT underlined already. When I was got soundly saved, Heb 6 and 10 were the verses that woke me up. You can hear my testimony on www.departmentofannoyance.com/Audios.html. At the time I believed in OSAS but when confronted with these scriptures I didn't know what to do except simply believe them and take them at face value. I do still believe that the large majority of professing Christians are in fact "false converts" those who were never saved to begin with. I once heard Keith Daniel say, "Once saved always saved...? Sure... as long as you stay saved." I certainly can't agree with unconditional security, scripture really doesn't support that. I certainly can agree that God knows the end from the beginning and has predestined people to be saved according to foreknowledge. Although it is as Calvinist as you can get, RC Sproul's "Chosen by God" is a pretty good book that makes a very good case for predestination and sovereignty of God. Right now I am not completely sold one way or the other. I would lean a lot towards Ray Comfort's theology, who admits that he is a little mix of both Calvin and Arminian. I guess sometimes my finite mind can't comprehend an infinite God, but there are lots of scriptures that show that one can depart or fall away from the faith. I have to conclude that they were in the faith if they can depart or be cut off. I am still hammering this one out in detail. None of the controversial or difficult passsages scare me anymore though. I used to be afraid of bringing up Hebrews 6 and 10. Guess what some of the most used verses are for me in witnessing and preaching? Hebrews 6 and 10 and verses like it. I have to determined that if it is in the Bible, it needs to be proclaimed. Fighting the battle, Miles
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Travis M Chapman In Texas
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Post by Travis M Chapman In Texas on Jan 10, 2006 22:26:03 GMT -5
Miles,
I agree with you on the point that if it is in the bible I agree with it. I would say this, IF Hebrews 6:4-6 is teaching that one can lose their salvation, it is also teaching that it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever obtain salvation again. I'll be honest, this bible passage is one that I've grappled with. It is hard to understand what 'Paul?' is talking about. A principle that I try to apply is alway interpret the hard passages in light of the clear ones.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jan 10, 2006 22:38:03 GMT -5
Travis, Ya I know, that is why I don't flippantly toss around the idea of losing salvation. From this verse, I can't seem to biblically support a case for ever being able to get it back. I do see throughout scripture wher God heals and brings back the backslider. This is why I simply had to come to the conclusion that before I was soundly saved, I was never actually saved at all. Oh I professed to be a Christian, but sorry, a good tree CANNOT bring forth bad fruit. I have actually had people who didn't even know me tell me that I was actually saved before I repented. wow. That is dangerous theology.
Guns blazing,
Miles
by the way, are you the same Travis I met while I was in Texas a couple months back?
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 11, 2006 12:29:20 GMT -5
Here is something that I wrote recently: Eternal Security The goal of this article is not, I repeat NOT to cause division in the body of Christ or to divide our efforts to reach the lost by setting us in arguments against each other. I believe that such arguments which divide the body of Christ against itself fall under 2 Timothy 2:16. So if you are one who can’t discuss these things in love without getting into an argument or if you can’t stay Godly while speaking about God, don’t bother speaking about Him in the first place. When I first became a Christian, I believed wholeheartedly that a Christian could lose his or her salvation. I was a new believer and was learning all that I could. The Church that I went to believed and taught that a Christian could lose their salvation. And with me being a new Christian I believed what I was taught. I knew nothing about the Bible as a new convert. I was so fervent and in agreement with the doctrine that a Christian could lose their salvation that I would convert Baptists into my way of thinking. As I look back, there were many people who I persuaded to believe as I believed. I regret this now and wish I could reverse these “conversions.” As I started to study the Bible objectively instead of through “you can lose your salvation goggles” I began to see things much differently. I opened my mind and told God to show me what His Word really says. As we read the Bible we must understand that most of us put on goggles before we come to the Word. We have our own presuppositions and our ideas. And sometimes we go to the Word to try to backup what we believe instead of trying to see what it says. We must guard against this. If we don’t we will end up not exercising sound hermeneutics (Bible Interpretation). Bible interpretation should include all of these things: Understanding the culture of that time, understanding a little about the original languages (an NO you don’t have to be a scholar...I took a couple of classes on Greek and got some very good software on Greek for my computer and it has helped more than I can say), understanding exactly what the writer is saying to the people he is saying it to. Each Scripture should be interpreted in light of the rest of Scripture. The Bible CANNOT contradict itself, it is the Word Of God. If it seems to contradict itself, then some of your interpretations are wrong. To say that God’s Word contradicts itself is to call God double minded. One MAJOR rule of Biblical interpretation is to interpret unclear Scriptures in light of clear Scriptures. In other words, if one Scripture can obviously only mean one thing and another Scripture seems to contradict the first one, then your interpretation of the second Scripture is wrong. It must be interpreted in light of the first one. People interpret Scriptures WRONG all the time. Some Scriptures simply cannot mean what people think they mean because of what others Scriptures definitely say. One more principle to keep in mind, “If literal sense makes perfect sense, choose no other sense, lest you make nonsense.” Many people try to “allegorize” or “spiritualize” Scripture where it is not meant to be. Many times, people read the Bible and go straight to application. Before you can apply any Scripture you must first know what it says. It is only after you know what it says that you can know how to apply it. So, with all of this in mind, let’s put aside what other’s think or what people in the past have thought and let’s see what the Bible says by looking at the culture of the people of that time and the original language so we can find out exactly what the writer is saying. Then and only then can we come to a real, firm decision on this issue. It is hard to know where to start, but here it goes: Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance. Because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime. Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word õἱïèåóßá (youiothesia) and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children. Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word óöñáãßæù (sphragizo) and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “isgiven as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word ἀññáâþí (harrabon) and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar. What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood, that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lost their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus, you must be “Born Again.” If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”? Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom Heforeknew, He alsopredestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be thefirstborn among many brethren; and these whom Hepredestined, He alsocalled; and these whom He called, He alsojustified; and these whom He justified, He alsoglorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO, not predestined to save- God does NOT choose whom He will save) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven. Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neitherdeath, nor life, norangels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love? The Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.” These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup OSAS in Scripture by any means. I will write more later if need be. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13. P.S. None of the Greek words turned out right when I copied and pasted to the board...sorry. But the english is in parentheses next to it.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 11, 2006 16:38:15 GMT -5
Travis,
Regarding the question about everlasting/eternal life in John 3:16. I would say that you're confusing the nature of the gift (which is eternal) with the nature of the giving (which is conditional). To be sure eternal life is eternal. Yet eternal life is not something we possess apart from the Son.
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." -1 John 5:11-12
So long as we remain in Christ we have eternal life. If we don't remain in Christ we don't have eternal life.
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life." -1 John 2:24-25
"It is possible to possess temoporarily something which is itself eternal." -Joseph Dongell
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 11, 2006 16:45:54 GMT -5
To everybody: I had a feeling that this topic would get overwhelming. I doubt that any of us have the time to respond to dozens of Scriptures at once. I personally will try to examine and deal with a limited number of Scriptures at a time. I'll try to present the case for conditional eternal security both positively and negatively. By that I mean that I'll present Scriptures for and attempt to defend this doctrine from the Scriptures presented against it. I don't want to just list Scriptures so I will prepare my statement before I post. Since it's been brought up I will go next to Hebrews 6 & 10. You'll have to be patient with me as I have a life Rev K, Amen to what you've said about hermeneutics. I would make the point that there are many people on both sides who are very sound in this area. Who's to say that those who believe in OSAS aren't the ones who come to the Scriptures with goggles? Of course the possiblity is there for both sides. I read this last night concerning the perseverance of the saints: "The caricatures that the proponents of the differing views give of every other view most often have no basis in reality. Some among the Wesleyan-Arminian persuasion insist that Calvinists believe once they are saved they can do whatever sinful thing they please, as often as they please, and still be saved - as if they believe the sanctifying work of the Spirit and the Word does not affect them. Whereas some Calvinists might insist that Wesleyan-Arminians believe any sin they commity jeopardizes their salvation, so they 'fall in and out of' being saved each time they sin - as if they believe that God's love, patience, and grace are so fragile that they shatter at the slightest pressure. Any person who is biblically and theologically alert recognizes the lie in both of these caricatures." -Daniel B. Pecota Steve
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 11, 2006 17:26:27 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input and I am enjoying reading the discussion, but I would appreciate it if someone would refute some of the scriptures we have posted that indicate people can lose their salvation.
Nothing I have read so far has moved me at all from my position.
Matthew 24:13 says, "...he that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 3:14 says, "For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast UNTO THE END."
In Isaiah 59, God was talking to His people and He told them their sins had separated them from Him. In Romans 8, He does not lists sin as one of the things that could separate them from Him. That passage was written as an encouragement to people who were under severe persecution for their faith.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 11, 2006 18:08:07 GMT -5
There have been both many calvinists and arminians used greatly by God. Great Calvinists of the past have been Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, David Brainerd, Jonathon Edwards, etc. Great Arminians have been John Wesley, William & Catherine Booth, Leonard Ravenhill, Duncan Campbell, John Fletcher, etc.
I pray that God is able to use any one of us as much as He was able to use any one of them.
I think a good answer to, "Can you loose your salvation?" would be, "don't leave Jesus and you never have to worry about it."
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 11, 2006 18:25:24 GMT -5
Amen to that Jesse! That is the conclusion that I have come to! That is why I said at the beginning that it doesn't matter which way you view someone who is obviously lost. Whether they were saved and have now lost their salvation or whether they were never saved in the first place...they are still in the same position if they died today in their state: going to Hell. No matter which means to that end you believe in, the end is the same. You know what...I believe that this issue may be (and I do mean maybe ;D) unclear for a reason: God didn't allow it to be clear so Christians would stay on their feet. I just want to make clear that I believe in the perseverance of the saints. So, Scriptures like Hebrews 3:14, 12:14 and Matthew 24:13 agree with what I believe totally. One verse that I like for my position is Philippians 1:6, which says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." As far as Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 6, those are the classic unclear Scriptures in this situation. They are not really clear either way. I would write out what I think about those in my owns words, but it would just be waaayyy too long. I think John MacArthur does a very good job of explaining both passages expositionally though. For those of you who are interested, Here is the link to his commentary on Hebrews 6: www.pinpointevangelism.com/The_Tragedy_of_Rejecting_Full_Revelation_Hebrews_6.docAnd here is the one to Hebrews 10: www.pinpointevangelism.com/Apostasy__Hebrews_10.docHope you enjoy!
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 11, 2006 21:23:27 GMT -5
John MacArthur writes of Hebrews 10:26-39: This chapter could be titled, “The Tragedy of Getting over It,” because it deals with those who had heard the gospel, had come face-to-face with the claims of Christ, had been associated to some extent with His church, but had gone away. These were people whose hearts had been warmed toward the gospel of Christ, who had made a superficial commitment of faith in Him, and had identified themselves visibly with the true church. But their enthusiasm was cooling and the cost of being a Christian was becoming too high. They were “getting over” the gospel, and were in danger of becoming apostate. Apparently his belief is that this is a warning to people who are false converts and not truly Christians. Lets check the context on that: 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Can there be any doubt that this passage is directed to genuine believers? If you're still not convinced, then continue to read Hebrews 10. Do these sound like false converts to you? 32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.[/i] In context the writer of Hebrews is encouraging genuine believers to persevere in faith. These same believers he warns that if they don't persevere they will end up in hell. I'll elaborate more later, but that's where I'm coming from. Steve
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 11, 2006 22:10:23 GMT -5
Who knows who is truly saved and not? That is the question we must ask ourselves. Only God and that person does. When I preach to a congregation at a Church, I assume that NO ONE is saved. To do otherwise is to make a grave error. And when I am preaching I usually say "we" in everything instead of "you." This way people don't take it as me being self-righteous or as me "preaching at them." They take my message as being applied to everyone including myself. Just because the person says we, us and brothers, does NOT mean that it is talking about True Christians. The writer of Hebrews does NOT know who is saved and who is not. He surely doesn't know every single person who is going to read this letter. Since he is writing the letter, he obviously won't be there in person when he reads. There are possibly hundreds of people who I know personally and think are saved myself because of the fruit that I see. But how do I know what they do in private. How do I know what their thought life is like? They could be the most vile thinkers in the world. They could be hooked on pornography and loving it. And since God desires truth in the inward parts, someone could be fooling everyone (even themselves) except God. Only eternity will tell who is a True Christian and not. Once again, this Scripture can really go either way...even though I believe it is the way that I have stated... v.32-39 seem to support the "Perseverance of the Saints" much more than "lose your salvation." Also, every time the word judge is used in the Bible, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is referring to Hell and Eternity. Hebrews 12 makes it very clear that God judges or disciplines His sons, those that He loves. In fact, it says that if He doesn't discipline you that that is a sign that you are an illegetimate son and in fact no son at all. Just as I would discipline my own son for his good, God disciplines us for our good. A sort of pruning of the bad limbs or leaves in order that we might be more fruitful.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 11, 2006 22:13:01 GMT -5
By the way...I am really enjoying this and I think it is a good thing.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 12, 2006 19:15:49 GMT -5
Rev K you make some valid points here, but I still think that the context of this passage and the letter as a whole make it clear that genuine believers are in mind here. Why is this significant? In Hebrews there are numerous passages warning against the peril of apostosy. If one believes in OSAS, then they believe that genuine believers cannot apostosize. They must interpret these passages (as well as many others in the N.T.) as speaking to those whose faith is inadequate or insincere. For example, John MacArthur says of those being addressed in Hebrews 6: People can go to church for years and hear the gospel over and over again, even be faithful church members, and never really make a commitment to Jesus Christ. That kind of person is addressed here And of Hebrews 10: These were people whose hearts had been warmed toward the gospel of Christ, who had made a superficial commitment of faith in Him, and had identified themselves visibly with the true church. I completely agree that there are many false converts in the visible church. I don't agree that they are being addressed here. Let's look at the context of the book of Hebrews. In Heb 2:1-4 the author encourages the readers to be careful not to "drift away" from "what we have heard" which includes "so great a salvation". He includes himself as one who must be careful not to drift away. "1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." In Heb 3:1 he refers to his readers as "holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling", for whom Jesus is "the apostle and high priest whom we confess." Again including himself with them. "1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess."In Heb 3:6 he includes his readers with himself as among those who already are God's house who only need to "hold on" to what they have. "6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast." The writer includes his readers with himself as among those "who have fled to take hold of the hope offered" which for the writer and his readers is "an anchor for the soul, firm and secure." "18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."In Heb 10:19-25 he includes his readers with himself as having "confidence to enter the most holy place by the blood of Jesus." The writer and readers "have a great high priest over the house of God", and they can "draw near to God in full assurance of faith." These things can only be said of believers. "19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."In Heb 10:32-34 he speaks of their early days when the had suffered persecution for Christ. He says that they let their earthly things go "joyfully" because they had "better and lasting possessions." This again can only be said of genuine believers. "32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions." These and many other passages could be cited to show that the letter is written to genuine believers. As such the numerous passages in Hebrews warning against apostosy are written to Christians (those who can apostosize) and not to "superficial" believers (those who can't apostosize.) This is true throughout the N.T. The Lord is not warning "so called Christians" about leaving the faith. They can't leave a faith they never really came to. Note: Rev K I also am enjoying this because it gives me an opportunity to understand the other side better. I also hope some of the others will join in and give my brain a rest Steve
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 12, 2006 20:24:16 GMT -5
Let me throw out what I believe to be a challenging Scripture for those who hold to OSAS.
This is the Lord's interpretation of the parable of the sower in Luke 8. You can read the parable in verses 1-8. Starting in verse 11 Jesus explains the meaning of the parable:
"11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
According to verse 13 it is possible to believe temporarily.
"Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
Now the question surrounds the meaning of believe in this passage. Does it denote true saving faith or a "believing" which falls short of true saving faith?
In the Scriptures it can mean both. Obviously believe (Gk. pisteuo) can mean genuine faith, but can it mean a faith that falls short of true fatih? Yes, John 2:23-25 & James 2:19 are examples of this kind of "faith". So if it can go either way how can we determine the meaning in Luke 8?
We must look at the context to capture the precise meaning here. The use of believe in verse 12 establishes it's meaning in this parable.
"Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."
The kind of belief here is clearly true saving faith. There is no warrant for changing the meaning of believe in verse 13. According to the context of the parable those who "believe for a while" but "fall away" are genuine believers that lose their salvation.
In contrast those who produce a crop are those who hear the word, retain it, and persevere.
"But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop"
Those who hear the word must retain it or they will lose it.
I would contend that the parable of the sower is not a parable of "true and false conversion" as many have thought. Rather it's a parable showing that salvation can be lost.
Note: I would like to say that I believe in true and false conversion. I just think that some of the passages used are misused while others can be used consistently. For example 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Steve
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 12, 2006 20:52:05 GMT -5
There are two problems with the person who "believes" in verse 13. First of all they received the word with "joy" when they should have received it with brokeness, sorrow and repentance. Second of all they have no root. This signifies a very "shallow" experience if you will, possibly describing people who may have had some emotional response without truly repenting of their sins. They didn't count the cost...
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 12, 2006 21:04:00 GMT -5
I would say this, IF Hebrews 6:4-6 is teaching that one can lose their salvation, it is also teaching that it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever obtain salvation again. A principle that I try to apply is alway interpret the hard passages in light of the clear ones. Just wanted to point this out again...
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 12, 2006 21:06:44 GMT -5
I understand what you mean and I agree in principle, but the parable does not say that receiving with joy was a problem. It also doesn't say the the one who persevered received the word with brokeness, sorrow, and repentance. That has to be brought into the text from without.
Isa 12:3 says, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."
It remains to be shown that believe in verse 13 can be given a different meaning from believe in verse 12. Again to say that it wasn't a true conversion is contrary to the context of the passage and must be supplied from without.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 12, 2006 21:21:44 GMT -5
Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 There's no question that this is a difficult passage for BOTH sides. As has been stated earlier the difficult passages should be interpreted in light of the clearer. I contend that there are clearer passages that say those who fall away can be restored. Stay tuned, I just don't have time to lay it all out right now. Also, I would again say that the context of this passage and the book as a whole favor the view that believers are in view here.
I will say this though. I believe the meaning here to be the same as that in Hebrews 10:26-27. That is, the reason it's impossible for them to repent is because their sin is present and persistent.
The Amplified Bible brings out the original language a little more clearly. Notice especially verse 6:
"For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace. For the soil which has drunk the rain that repeatedly falls upon it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose benefit it is cultivated partakes of a blessing from God. But if [that same soil] persistently bears thorns and thistles, it is considered worthless and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." (Heb 6:4-8)
If the alternates in verse 6 are correct, then this passage is saying the same as Hebrews 10:26-27. Notice also that verse 8 encourages us to believe that it's not too late (near to being cursed).
Steve
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