|
Post by jonathanhulewicz on Apr 12, 2006 1:43:11 GMT -5
I recently witnessed to someone (claimed to be a christian) and he had a tattoo on his arm which said "Jesus Saves". I asked him why he got it and he said that it is a good opportunity to chat to people about God etc.
I asked him if what he thought the bible said about this. He said Jesus would be fine with it because He (Jesus) will have one:
'And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.' (Rev 19:16).
I told him that you can NO way conclude that this was a tattoo and that Jesus was endorsing us to get tattoos.
I quoted from Leviticus 19:28 'Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.'
He said that was Old Testament. I shared with him that there was an application for us today. He still thought there was nothing wrong with it.
Wondering if you have any thoughts on the subject??
|
|
|
Post by josh on Apr 12, 2006 3:21:16 GMT -5
I think you got it right, but the person is clearly justifying themselves.
|
|
|
Post by victorialewis on Apr 12, 2006 9:24:45 GMT -5
I agree with Josh. I always find it interesting when Christians are so eager to emulate the ways of the world, justifying it as being 'relevant' and a way to witness. Let me asure you, the believer who really got my attention, and led me to the Lord, looked nothing like the rest of the world. I knew there was a difference, and I now know that it was holiness.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 12, 2006 9:45:03 GMT -5
I have found that the most relevant way to witness is to preach against sin. Repentance and remission of sin!
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 12, 2006 11:52:58 GMT -5
I agree with Josh. I always find it interesting when Christians are so eager to emulate the ways of the world, justifying it as being 'relevant' and a way to witness. Amen! I agree too, and I believe the same thing happens when CCM is discussed.
|
|
|
Post by rsmportland on Apr 12, 2006 12:06:49 GMT -5
I myself don't endorse tattoo's. But if you had a late start, and you've already got a bunch, would it help to balance it out with a few scriptures or angels or something? Case in point, Head formerly for the band Korn, now a born again Christian, did himself up when he was converted. I think he has a scripture quote tattood on his NECK! Either way, the body is the Lords temple, let him decorate. Check Head out at headtochrist.com...
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 12, 2006 15:21:06 GMT -5
I have found that the most relevant way to witness is to preach against sin. Repentance and remission of sin! It is a lot less painful and less expensive to do it this way!
|
|
|
Post by victorialewis on Apr 12, 2006 16:00:41 GMT -5
LOL!
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 13, 2006 12:24:55 GMT -5
I have a bunch of tattoos, most of them are from the time in my life when I was not born again -- the time when I was a neo-nazi skinhead. When I was a very new Christian and was just out of prison I went and got a couple "Christian Tattoos"... I didn't get them to look cool, instead in my zeal for witnessing (and my lack of Scriptural knowledge) I thought it would be both a wonderful witness and a mark of devotion to the Lord. While I always encourage people NOT to tattoo themselves, I can understand (from personal experience) that there are some people who really just don't understand much more than the basics of the gospel. In their ignorance and zeal, new Chrsitians often do some crazy things. But God is faithful to help us all grow and mature. The best things we can do are to pray for those who are new converts and to give people the truth of God's Word, just like Jonathan did!
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 13, 2006 13:03:46 GMT -5
"I quoted from Leviticus 19:28 'Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."
While admittedly my opinion comes from a non-Christian perspective, I believe I can share some insight. I have heard many people cite this verse to make the argument against tattooing. I think, however, it is important to be familiar with the context of the verse itself. Just lines before, the text warns against mixing types of cloth used in clothing and planting two kinds of seed in the same field. Do we uphold these laws today? Of course not. So why should we uphold this one? Also, I believe that around the time this part of the Bible was written there were several pagan and Earth worship cultures in contact with the Israelites who employed tattooing as part of their religious rites. This verse may be nothing more than a rewording of the command to refrain from idolatry. *shrugs* Interesting things to be aware of concerning cultural history of the time period.
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 13, 2006 17:28:30 GMT -5
" Also, I believe that around the time this part of the Bible was written there were several pagan and Earth worship cultures in contact with the Israelites who employed tattooing as part of their religious rites. This verse may be nothing more than a rewording of the command to refrain from idolatry. *shrugs* Interesting things to be aware of concerning cultural history of the time period. Funny we still have that problem!
|
|
|
Post by jonathanhulewicz on Apr 13, 2006 17:44:15 GMT -5
I think, however, it is important to be familiar with the context of the verse itself. Just lines before, the text warns against mixing types of cloth used in clothing and planting two kinds of seed in the same field. Do we uphold these laws today? Of course not. So why should we uphold this one? I agree with you. When you take a verse out of context you can make up your own doctrine. However, we can use this verse as an application today. It may not of been directly written for us, but there definately is an application for us. I think this verse can sum it up: 'For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning.' (Romans 15:4)
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 15, 2006 23:01:18 GMT -5
I like Morluna's point on that. Context is extremely important.
As for tattoos, I've been thinking on getting one. A pair of wings on my shoulder-blades (angel-wings?). It means a lot to me in many ways, that's why.
Now, as far as the Leviticus quote goes in itself, by itself...
Leviticus 19:28 'Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.'
I don't read that as 'no tattoos for you'. What does it mean to say 'for the dead'? That I shouldn't mark on my body in remembrance of the dead? Yeah, I agree with that thought because I don't believe in holding onto the physicality of the flesh. I think the making-marks part is a continuation of the same thought - 'for the dead'. And I'm willing to bet that it has to do with worshipping the dead in a sense, which would be idolatry. So, hmm.... o0o0o0o! What if you do one 'OF' the dead??? It's not "FOR" - not FOR them to find their way, or for power for them or anything like that! Wheeee!
*adds into notebook: No making runes and carvings on body FOR the dead* Check
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 15, 2006 23:09:46 GMT -5
I like Morluna's point on that. Context is extremely important. As for tattoos, I've been thinking on getting one. A pair of wings on my shoulder-blades (angel-wings?). It means a lot to me in many ways, that's why. Now, as far as the Leviticus quote goes in itself, by itself... Leviticus 19:28 'Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.'I don't read that as 'no tattoos for you'. What does it mean to say 'for the dead'? That I shouldn't mark on my body in remembrance of the dead? Yeah, I agree with that thought because I don't believe in holding onto the physicality of the flesh. I think the making-marks part is a continuation of the same thought - 'for the dead'. And I'm willing to bet that it has to do with worshipping the dead in a sense, which would be idolatry. So, hmm.... o0o0o0o! What if you do one 'OF' the dead??? It's not "FOR" - not FOR them to find their way, or for power for them or anything like that! Wheeee! *adds into notebook: No making runes and carvings on body FOR the dead* Check Good point. I can see that reading very clearly. PS: I like wings on the shoulder blades. I've seen someone with those before. They're pretty. I've been thinking about getting one myself... but I have no idea what I would want. Maybe the "OM" symbol on my ankle or something.. I'm not sure, but I want some ink. ^_^
|
|
|
Post by drsocc on Apr 15, 2006 23:47:30 GMT -5
My (dumb) friend accidentally had "wheres the bef[sic]? tattooed to his belly.
My girlfriend has a tattoo on her back. I think I might get something. Also, I think that bible quote pertaining to cutting a person while grieving the dead is more concerned with self mutilation rather than an artistic memorial to the person who passed away.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 16, 2006 2:43:04 GMT -5
Hmm... interesting point. But do things like scarification count as self-mutilation even if it's in the name of art? And then what one person sees as art, another doesn't.
I really do like your point, I just like clarification =) Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by jonathanhulewicz on Apr 16, 2006 6:39:11 GMT -5
Serioulsy, if your a born again christian the bible makes it clear about tattoos (no matter if you have a religious symbol or not) and that it is wrong.
Why would you want one for and be just like the 'world'? Doesn't the bible command us not to be conformed to this world? (Romans 12:2).
|
|
|
Post by drsocc on Apr 16, 2006 21:13:50 GMT -5
Hmm... interesting point. But do things like scarification count as self-mutilation even if it's in the name of art? And then what one person sees as art, another doesn't. I really do like your point, I just like clarification =) Thank you! Personally I don't think I would ever get a tattoo. I guess I was kind of ambiguous in what I meant. I just wanted to insinuate that perhaps the bible was refering more about hurting yourself for the sake of hurting yourself (cutters, attempted suicide, scars, or any kind of physical manifestation of grief). I can see where a person could extend that into a cut and dry decree stating that tattoos should never be allowed though. I'm not really one to tell people what to do or how to look at things. Thats just how I see it.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 17, 2006 0:12:35 GMT -5
Serioulsy, if your a born again christian the bible makes it clear about tattoos (no matter if you have a religious symbol or not) and that it is wrong. Why would you want one for and be just like the 'world'? Doesn't the bible command us not to be conformed to this world? (Romans 12:2). Where does it make this clear? And what does this have to do with conforming to the world?... I'm confuzzled again, as usual =(
|
|
|
Post by jonathanhulewicz on Apr 17, 2006 3:35:31 GMT -5
I recently read an article about tattoos and pagans. They are associated with pagan religions.
At the end of the day it is up to you if you get one or not. I believe that the bible is clear on the subject and I stand by that. We as christians are not meant to be like the 'world' we are meant to be different, separate etc.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 18, 2006 1:40:51 GMT -5
Yes, you are correct, some people associate them with pagan religions. And Christianity was a cult to begin with - things change.
You believe that the Bible is clear on it, yet you're not helping the discussion by explaining this clarity. Please, I would appreciate the aid, since I'm still considering getting one.
|
|
|
Post by wideglide on Apr 18, 2006 7:57:01 GMT -5
I have them from when I was a lost pagan, they are clearly visible also, I am opposed to tattoo's because I think it is just another way of conforming to the world and looking like it.
I used to ride with soem biker "ministries" as say thta loosly and most of the gusy I knew were all getting tattoo's and the reason fro most of them were many, most because they liked them and second because it helped them "fit in" with the biker world to be more accepted. And their reasoning was that since they look like them they will better listen to the message...nope I don't by it, that is why I have since parted company with these groups (along with other reasons) straight up preaching is the best way to reach them.
I cannot say this is you but I do recall why I wanted to get more tattoo's after I was saved, and the reason most always started wiuth because I, Because I X, Because I y because I Z
to much of me (I) in the reason why, that led me to say i don;t need a tattoo to proclaim Christ God gave me a mouth.
If I could afford some of the new laser stuff I would get them removed, I tried it on one but the scar is worse then the tatoo and the money was crazy!
Don't do it, but it sounds like you already have your mind made up.
1 Cor 6:12-17 is a good verse to mediate upon.
|
|
|
Post by jefffuller on Apr 18, 2006 8:23:00 GMT -5
I also tried the laser removal....Ouch! It was worse than getting a tattoo... the sensation was as if someone had poured gasoline on my chest, lit it on fire, and then kept snapping a rubberband into the flames and popping me with it.
The topic of tattoos has as much to do with Modesty & Humility as it does with refraining from conforming to this world.
Simply put, immodesty is pride on display. In his book Humility: True Greatness, C.J. Mahaney explains that “The proud person seeks to glorify himself and not God, thereby attempting in effect to deprive God of something only He is worthy to receive.”
In other words, the immodest person seeks to tattoo himself in a way that draws attention to himself and to his body, instead of serving others and bringing glory to the Savior.
|
|
|
Post by victorialewis on Apr 18, 2006 8:57:08 GMT -5
B.C. I came very close to getting a tatoo. The Christian woman who later led me to the Lord was instrumental in talking me out of it. Praise God.
thanks, Jeff, for pointing out modesty and humility as being two fine reasons why not to get one, if you are a believer.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 18, 2006 12:31:45 GMT -5
wideglide: 1 Cor 6:12-17 is a good verse to mediate upon.
That section's about sexual immorality...
Now, if you're talking about the two flesh's becoming one part, I assume you realize that a tattoo would be no worse than dying and rotting, right?
I am opposed to tattoo's because I think it is just another way of conforming to the world and looking like it.
Erm, not necessarily. The one I want for instance has nothing to do with anything in this world and because it's on my back it won't be visible to anyone
Jeffuller: In other words, the immodest person seeks to tattoo himself in a way that draws attention to himself and to his body, instead of serving others and bringing glory to the Savior.
But that doesn't mean that the person wanting a tattoo is immodest - the logic doesn't flow both ways. x --> y doesn't mean y ---> x
Basically, what I understand is that getting a tattoo is fine if it's not a vanity thing. Which is good - Vanity is one of the 7 Deadly Sins
|
|
|
Post by victorialewis on Apr 18, 2006 16:41:29 GMT -5
May I respectfully ask then why WOULD a person desire a tatoo, if not to show to others? (even if it's only a select few - when tatoos are done in areas not commonly shown on the street)
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 18:42:31 GMT -5
Simply because it's pretty and it reminds me of things dear to my heart.
I don't think it's any different from... say... a woman who paints her toenails, but wears socks and shoes that covers them up. They're nice because she likes them that way.
If no one could Ever see it but me, that'd be fine, because I know it's there. Heck... I kind of imagine it already, so there's not a huge difference.
|
|
|
Post by prolifedorothy on Apr 19, 2006 19:09:59 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 19, 2006 19:23:45 GMT -5
Brother, the thing that I gauge making decisions like this on is by asking myself several things like "this money I am wanting to spend (that God has blessed me with) how will it be furthering His Kingdom by doing this? will it further His Kingdom more than if I were to give this amount to the church missionary fund or by buying food at a food bank for the hungry or by buying gospel tracts to hand to the lost? and even though I give, how much really is enough considering the lost state of the multitudes out there? and then a scripture that helps me is "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matt 6:21 May God bless you as you search Truth
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 20:08:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I didn't find anything on that site that furthered your point. In fact, I saw the kind of reasoning that would be scorned if I used it.
And to darc, as you said, to what degree do you take your argument? I hope you don't eat any more than the bare minimum for a meal. Clothes you wear, too. In fact, I hope you don't own anything that you could go without. You're being hypocritical, else
Perhaps it's not the best thing I could do with the money. That really doesn't bother me. Yes, it's me spending something on myself. Oh well. I do good things, too, ya know?
|
|