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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 6, 2006 18:52:38 GMT -5
I don't know if there is a topic that I enjoy writing more on then holiness, living free from all sin. Soon I hope to write an article, that I've been planning to write for about a year now, called "Sanctification by Faith".
As a young Christian I would read my bible and see holiness on every page. But I was a bit worried because I thought I was the only one who believed in living free from all sin. I was pretty naive. The church I attended always said things like, "You're only human" and "Everybody sins every day".
I had written a paper on holiness, simply listening different scriptures about freedom from sin and conditional security, and gave it to a lady in my church who asked for it. Sure enough, an elder of the Church called me and came over!
I spoke with him about holiness and conditional security for a long time, backing everything up with the word. Finally he broke, and with teary eyes he said, "Well, then I have a lot that I'm going to have to give an account for". I later found out that he had lived a very worldly "Christian" life. A few months later he died, right with God to my knowledge.
Then something wonderful happened. I found out that there were entire DENOMINATIONS that believed in holiness and conditional security!!! For so long I thought I was a heretick becaus I was the only one! But I heard about men like John Wesley, William Booth, E. M. Bounds, Charles Finney, Duncan Campbell, and Leonard Ravenhill who all taught holiness!
Then, as I read more scripture, I saw that not only justification was by faith, but also sanctification was by faith.
Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
Hebrews 11:27 "By faith he forsook Egypt"
Again, I was naive to think that I was being original in believing that sanctification was by faith. But of coarse I wasn't. This was a biblical doctrine the entire Christian movements held to, like the Salvation Army. I just read this quote today:
So I just want to encourage anyone on these boards who wants to walk in holiness, victory over sin, but isn't. Holiness comes by faith. All bondages are broken at salvation, but it's entirely up to you if you will walk back into those bondages or remain in freedom. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. But the devil is a hard task master. It's entirely up to you if you are going to walk in victory over sin or not.
Yes you must choose to forsake sin, yes you must fight and die daily, but you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.
Very simple, if you don't believe you can be holy then you won't be holy. If you believe you have to sin every day then you will sin every day. However the gift of holiness is available to all for the taking through Christ Jesus and it is a beautiful thing. (1Ch 16:29, 2Ch 20:21, Ps 29:2, Ps 96:9)
Believe in the power of the blood, not only to cover sin but to cleanse sin. Not only to make you a new person in the eyes of God but to make you a new person in reality. Believe in the power of the blood to break the power of canceled sin. Believe that as He is so you can be on this earth (1 John 4:17).
Living holiness is far more then you in your own strength. Holiness is part of the miracle of the new birth. Seek God in prayer until the miracle happens.
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Post by biblethumper on May 6, 2006 21:10:25 GMT -5
I've been seeking the understanding on the Wesleyan understanding of holiness for some time now... when this article is finished; send it along!
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Post by aaron on May 6, 2006 23:29:53 GMT -5
Yeah, please do post the article when it is finished. I can relate to what you said Jesse about thinking that you where the only person in the world who believed living free from sin was possible. When God first showed that me in His word that we can live free from sin last year, I thought I was the only one in the world who believed this (In my immediate world of school and church this was so). I soon found out that Wesley, Finney and others (like you guys)online believed this too. Your articles are gold Jesse, especially "Naming the name of Christ". I used to be quiet about holiness, only because I was afraid of what everyone would say - call me a heretic/crazy or something. Just reading the posts here and knowing that I am not alone in my beliefs has really helped me stand up for holiness, so thanks guys. The majority isn't always correct.
God bless, Aaron
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 6, 2006 23:33:34 GMT -5
We turned "Naming the name of Christ" into a tract called "The Sinning Saint". It is my favorite tract to hand out to professing Christians.
The majority is not always right. God is always right and often times God is the minority.
I've been reading "Praying Hyde" which is a classic little book. In it I read Hydes testimony of his experience of "sanctification by faith".
This truly is a lost doctrine in our modern times.
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Post by heavenbound on May 7, 2006 20:02:52 GMT -5
My pastor preached on holiness this evening.It was a good message.I bought 2 cd copies of his message tonight.
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Post by biblethumper on May 7, 2006 20:41:42 GMT -5
jesse.... do you believe we can attain a place where we are UNABLE to sin? This is not a trick question; I have heard this
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Post by rebecca01 on May 7, 2006 21:27:07 GMT -5
We got into this discussion on Sermon Index and boy did I get in trouble with a few people.I was just thinking tonight that I just don't give a rip anymore!!!LOL Yes, you can live without sin.You can also backslide but thats not God's fault because in 1 Cor 10:13 it says that God...will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able....I love reading Watchman Nee. I made this statement that dead people cannot sin and got alot of people mad at me.There is salvation and than there is deliverance from sinning.Most christians get saved and stop there. If you think about it carefully that dead people cannot sin you will understand what I am saying.You die to alot of things that you are not aware of.Just like when your spoken against and don't reply back and just take it,that's a death.Eventually you get to a place where you have complete self control and the things that used to affect you don't affect you anymore.Are you the same person as the day you first got saved?Of course not!We have to take every area and nail it to the cross.Have I arrived,no and Im going to keep telling christians this because they need to know that they can be free from sin. I know Im in trouble now!!!LOL
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Post by aaron on May 8, 2006 1:22:43 GMT -5
If sanctification is by faith then wouldn't it be immediate not progressive, just like justification. Being 'born again' is like becoming a new person immediately. Shouldn't it happen at conversion? Literally, going and sinning no more. (I guess the only reason it dosen't is because when people turn to Christ they are told that they will sin because they are only human). Like Paul said, "if we die with Him, we will live with Him". Like you said Beck, 'a dead person cannot sin' because it is no longer the person living but Christ living through them. If sanctification is immediate do you think those who continue on in sin are saved? I have come to realize that salvation is from sinning, not only salvation from punishment. And if this is so, many people who continue on in sin believe they are saved when they aren't. 'Be doers of the word not merely hearers deceiving yourselves'.
Let us pray for holiness.
Aaron
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 6:16:26 GMT -5
My dad always calls me Beck. Anyway yes, I do believe that sanctification is supposed to be immediate not progressive because of water baptism signifying our death and burial with Christ.We are supposed to stop sinning.A person can't die a little bit.Your either dead or your not.The Apostle Paul said that "I die daily."
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Post by aaron on May 8, 2006 7:26:23 GMT -5
Amen, Sorry about the name.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 10:00:09 GMT -5
Scripture teaches many verious types of death.
Physcial Death.
Spiritual Death.
The Second Death.
To make a blanket statement that death is death and it happens as a one time experience is faulty, simply because Paul's Statement, "I did Daily", taken in conjunction with Romans 8:13, one comes to the conclusion that we must DAILY "mortify the deeds of the body", and not expect some miraculous sign from Heaven whereby we've finally "arrived".
The very words, "deeds of the body" is the express implication of daily struggle.
The Word tells us this.
If we, through the SPIRIT, do mortify the deeds of the body, we will live; if we fail to do so, we will die.
Sanctification, or being made seperate and holy, does not negate in any sense the fact of the potential of sin and living therein; if it did, each Arminian would have to concede that the doctrine of Perseverance as Calvin taught is 100% correct, because, by definition, how could one come to ultimate blasphemy if one claimed some type of subjective experience whereby it was no longer possible to sin?
ANYONE who is Born Again must already be sanctified, consecrated as holy and experientially set free from sin; to expect this to take place as a seperate work of Grace apart from Salvation implies you were never saved from anything at all if your professed Salvation did not bring sanctification with it part-and-parcel.
Certainly, I don't claim any authority on the topic, yet it is quite reasonable and logically viable to make the statement that if one needs a seperate work of entire Sanctification as an experience AFTER initial Coversion, for the express purpose of causing the Believer to walk sin free...would that not negate the very purpose of initial Conversion itself?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 10:43:36 GMT -5
Scripture says that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.The sanctification process begins after you are saved.I do believe though that you can be free from sinning.If it were not so than the Apostle Paul would not have to said that "God is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless.."and there are many other such scriptures.
In the old testament it says "perfect heart"...he or she "had a perfect heart." Even David had a perfect heart although he still sinned with Bathsheba when Nathan the prophet spoke to him he was smitten in his heart.Even though he sinned he was not condemned because he repented but their were consequences to his sin.
We really cannot know if we were perfect because the scripture says that we are not to judge ourselves.I walked real close with God for a time after reading alot of Watchman Nee's books and a very godly preacher with the gift of doscernment said that there was virtue coming out of me.I also had times were I was not walking close with God and had unforgiveness toward my neighbor and he discerned that too.I would love to see these gifts excercised more in the church,its really needed,we are lacking.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 12:07:40 GMT -5
I believe the sanctification process starts AT Salvation, or there is no salvation; i believe that it also CONTINUES on after Salvation.
As for judging ourselves, Scripture makes clear on that issue:
Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Jesus here speaks of false, hypcritical and ungodly judging)
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (He also gives a clear pattern here that judgment returns every single time)
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (He tells us to consider what's in our own lives; hence, judgment, as judgment is a determining of good and evil)
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (Here Jesus gies us the pattern for godly judgment)
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. (In order to rid things from our own lives that are unpleasing to the Lord, we must first and foremost judge what needs to go)
Lastly, Paul tells us:
1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (all means all; hence, in accordance with Matthew 7, this also includes, before anything else, our own lives)
Here's the kicker:
1 Corinthians 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I see here that proof of salvation and sanctification is in:
1- Sanctification at conversion; without a freedom from sin, how does one claim to be saved at all?
2- Judging ourselves; to examine is to test, prove and judge.....this is the method whereby we can either state that God is truly in us and working in us, or whether He is not in us and working in us to effectually maintain the separation from sin that Christ purchased at Calvary and which takes place at the New Birth.
I'm not saying there isn't a definate experience of Sanctyification....because I don't know completely what the doctrine fully entails....I do, however, believe in intial sanctification at Salvation; I refuse to believe any teaching which allows for sinful, consistent behaviour at and after conversion.
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Post by Rodgers on May 8, 2006 12:49:06 GMT -5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. (NIV)
How about this verse! It says we are SAVED through the the sanctifying work of the Spirit.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 14:55:25 GMT -5
That's also a great verse on election... "from the beginning God chose you"
My point entirely; that Salvation and Sanctification are one and the same.... initial and ongoing.
Would this be correct or am I off by a long shot?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 15:26:01 GMT -5
Santify to me has always meant "set apart". In the old testament they would sanctify a fast.In one place in the bible it says to sanctify the Lord God in your hearts 1 Pet 3:15.
We are saved and set apart but just like the Galations and Laodecia we still have a sin problem.I still believe and always have that there is "no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit".I used to struggle with condemnation and always trying to be perfect and please God.It's the work of the holy spirit to teach,convict and correct us.If we could do it on our own we wouldn't need a savior.
I also believe in predestination.Would God choose someone who He knew was going to hell?If your saved God is not going to just allow you to go your own way.He's going to leave the 99 and go after that one.You have to rest in faith that if you have sin God is faithful and He said that He will perfect those that are His.
The church is in a very dangerous place.There will be a falling away.The bible speaks of seperating the wheat from the chaff and the sheep from the goats.Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be which find it.How many christians really care if they have sin in their life.For example how many christians do you know that don't watch American Idol.I don't know of very many who don't.Do they even seem concerned to you if it's something God wants them to watch no, and these are some of the strongest christians I know.What do you think the rest are doing?
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Post by Rodgers on May 8, 2006 15:48:59 GMT -5
The "you" in that verse is not "you" the individual, but rather "you" as in those who believe in the Son. He choose those who believe in the Son to be sanctified by the spirit. This is how God wants to make just like Him. Through His Spirit. God has chosen the means by which we will become more like Him, however this does not mean that everyone will comply. God chooses the righteous, not the wicked. If you are righteous then God wants you to enter His kingdom. If you are wicked He does not want you. We have to choose which we will be, righteous or wicked. We choose to be righteous be belief in the truth and the sanctifying work of the spirit.
Notice in Roams 8:1 the people that are not condemned are those who walk after the spirit, those who walk after the flesh are condemned.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 15:53:33 GMT -5
I'd like to boldly say that I believe in an instant powerful sanctification experience and not a slow, delayed sanctification process. I believe in the supernatural experience of sanctification. Redemption is two fold, justification and sanctification. Justification is when you become holy in the eyes of God. Sanctification is when you become holy in your actual conduct. Both are essential to salvation and both occur at true conversion. Anything less is a cheap counterfiet.
If we say we are "being sanctified" we would also have to say we are "being justified". But it's not biblical. Rather we ARE sanctified and we ARE justified. Notice how the bible says we "are sanctified" and never says we "are being sanctified". Only will some modern translations add the word "being" in italics in order to fit their theology, but italics means it's not in the original.
Ac 20:32 - And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Ac 26:18 - To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1Co 1:2 - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(Notice in this verse it says "are sanctified" and "are justified". If we are going to say "are being sanctified" we would also have to say "are being justified")
Heb 2:11 - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jude 1:1 - Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
A Christian is not being set free from sin. No, a Christian is set "free from sin". (Romans 6:18, 20, 22; 8:2)
By sanctification I mean the setting apart from sin. We are not to slowly give up sinning. One who is saved does not choose to give up drunkenness but hold on to fornication. No, until he is set apart, dead to, or is free from sin as a whole he cannot be saved.
People say, "Sanctification is a life long process". But they acknowledge that before you die, you must BE sanctified because without holiness no man shall see the Lord. So if sanctification must finish before death, what of those who die young? Is their sanctification process shorter then ours? If the process can finish later, why not have it finish now?
No, the setting apart of sin is an instant setting free from bondage which occurs at conversion.
However growing in grace is a process. That is when you become stronger and stronger as a Christian. When you first get saved certain temptations are harder to bear then other temptations. But as you say "no" and "no" and "no" it becomes easier and easier. That is truly growing in grace. Growing in grace is not saying "yes" and then "no" and then "yes" and then "no". That's not growing at all! That's like running in place. But rather, the process is growing in grace and that is when you get stronger and stronger because you say no to sin.
That's right. There is no condemnation for those who walk after the spirit. But there is condemnation for any and all who walk after the flesh.
2Jo 1:9 - "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 16:05:47 GMT -5
I believe the same way as Jesse does and I also have this to add: He that KNOWETH to do good and does it not TO HIM IT IS SIN. James 4:17 That's the sin of consciousness.The key is that you are conscious of what you are doing but you do it anyway.We just need to have a heart towards God but like I said there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.
The question is what are we walking after?
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 16:14:17 GMT -5
I read, re read and re read again.
I planned on waiting to read more and more.
No need.
I just got off the phone with a ministry friend, Paul, and as we discussed this Forum topic, the Spirit of God confirmed the truth Jesse wrote of here.
One Scripture was illuminated to me.
Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
To be denotes more than possession of a thing or Person; to be something is to not only have that thing's or Person's nature but it is to be ONE WITH that thing or Person, in the sense of sharing oneness of nature:
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
We are not only to strive for the Holiness of Christ, we are to be that holiness as a testimony to the world.
Ye shall be holy
Holy, according to Miriam Webster's Dictionary:
exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
having a divine quality
The Spirit of God brought that truthj to my heart just a few minutes ago.
BE, in the NOW, present tense, holy unto Me.
Instant Sanctification.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 16:19:48 GMT -5
2Co 5:17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 16:21:01 GMT -5
2Co 5:17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." I need to pop offline for a while. This is good teaching!I need to study more
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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 16:23:37 GMT -5
Jesse,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't actually hold to the Wesleyan doctrine of sanctification do you? If I remember from an earlier post we differentiated between the Wesleyan view and your own. The Wesleyan believes entire sanctification is the eradication of original sin from the believer. If I remember correctly you said you were basically Pelagian on the issue of original sin, right?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 16:24:25 GMT -5
Just as boldly as one proclaims, "I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ" he should also proclaim, "I am sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 16:27:12 GMT -5
I differ on Wesley in that he taught "second blessing holiness". I would say I teach "first blessing holiness." Wesley believed it was an instant experience after conversion. I however see the being set free from sin experience occuring at conversion.
As far as original sin, I don't know whether or not I had it before. But I know that now I have become a "partaker of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)
I don't see this "process sanctification" in the bible. I see "ye are sanctified" all over the bible. And I see this "process" theology being used as an excuse for sin. It's as though they teach that you can give up your sin one little bit at a time. But when one is truly born again, their entire desire changes. They become new people and walk in, as the bible says, "newness of life".
Many seem to confuse sanctification with growing in grace. Even though a Christian is sanctified, that doesn't mean he doesn't have more growing to do. We all still have more growing to do. However the blood of Christ should have already cleansed us from all sin.
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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 16:40:26 GMT -5
Jesse,
I just wanted you to make it clear that your belief on this issue is not the traditional Wesleyan belief. Brother Dan said he was seeking to understand the Wesleyan position on holiness from your article and I thought it would be good for him if we clarify the difference. I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on this issue. Thanks for your response brother.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 16:47:39 GMT -5
The traditional Wesleyan view was that sanctification was instant after salvation. However their view of sanctification was not being set "free from sin" as much as it was being set free from original sin.
However I have no reason to believe that Wesley ever believed that one could be saved and yet still be unholy in conduct until they had this "second blessing". To my knowledge, Wesley taught that a Christian will live holy starting at conversion, however will not be delivered from original sin until this second experience.
But one thing is clear. The bible says Christians, "are sanctified".
Scripturally I see salvation, at conversion, as two-fold. Salvation from wrath and salvation from sin.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 16:51:42 GMT -5
Jesse Said: Scripturally I see salvation, at conversion, as two-fold. Salvation from wrath and salvation from sin.
This is exactly what I believed always and I also experienced the same at conversion, not after it.
However, I also gave too much room for those who DID not appear to be sanctified at conversion.
Now, as I stated, the theology has become the illumination.
This is amazing.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 17:01:58 GMT -5
The way it should be is that we are saved, water baptised and free from sin.We go under the water (representing death to self) and come out of the water (representing our life in Christ). Most christians still continue in sin after they are saved because they don't understand sanctification or the meaning of water baptism.They don't understand what it means to die.They don't understand why they are being water baptised.That's why they do sprinkling now.That takes away the whole meaning.
I don't claim to know it all.Im still trying to understand myself.All I know is that when people are being water baptised they need to understand what it represents and why they are doing it.After they are saved they need to be water baptised and understand that it's no longer they that live.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 17:18:50 GMT -5
To uphold water baptism as being somehow connected to sanctification would mean that the Salvation Army, who does not water baptize, is unsanctified.
Water Baptism is MORE than a symbol yet less than what some UPC's and other cult members claim.
Sanctification, as Jesse pointed out Scripturally, comes at Conversion, not water baptism.
Freedom from sin comes through Jesus' Blood; not water baptism.
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul speaks of water baptism and the Gospel (that which whcih saves) as distinct.
The Corporate Body of Christ has stood against Sabellian Doctrine and it's offshoots from the beginning, bodly proclaiming as not saved ,and under a false gospel,those who teach a gospel of water.
Let's keep with Sanctification rather than going over to water baptism.
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