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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 17:25:20 GMT -5
Here's a couple of good articles on the Wesleyan view of sanctification. The first deals with the sanctification that takes place at conversion. It's entitled: The Cleansing of Intitial Sanctificationwww.fwponline.cc/v19n2jomac.htmlHere's how the article begins: "While the holiness movement has placed much emphasis on the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit in entire sanctification, little is heard of the initial cleansing that takes place in salvation's first work of grace. Mr. Wesley and early Methodist theologians taught that sanctification or cleansing begins when a true penitent is justified and regenerated. To them this was not a new doctrine, for they saw it taught in both the New Testament and early church. A reasonable question then arises. In what sense is one sanctified in regeneration? To what extent is he or she cleansed in the first work of grace?" The second deals with the Wesleyan view of sanctification overall. It's entitled: Sanctification - Initial and Entirewww.ovrlnd.com/GeneralInformation/WesleySanctification.html
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 17:48:50 GMT -5
Water baptism is only symbolic.Im not linking it to a means of sanctification.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 17:50:40 GMT -5
Amen; agreed...it appeared you were so I wanted to know hehe....
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 8, 2006 18:36:28 GMT -5
Yes water baptism is meant to be an outward showing, or public proclaimation, of the internal cleansing that has already taken place.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 18:41:19 GMT -5
Amen.
So, Sanctification at Conversion.... then? Another Sanctification, or do we simply continue being sanctified without seeking more?
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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 19:49:46 GMT -5
As I said before I'm still working through where I stand on this doctrine. At this time I don't agree with the Wesleyan view of a second work of grace, but I completely agree with what's been said here about sanctification at the time of conversion.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 20:02:53 GMT -5
What about Laodecia in Revelation were they sanctified? God was going to spew them out of his mouth.I don't believe they were set apart people.They were lukewarm so they must have been worldly too.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 20:08:29 GMT -5
Mark Cahill is amazing on that issue.
Jesus did NOT speak to that church... he spoke to individuals IN it (note the laodecianS; plural, thus speaking to SOME, not the WHOLE.
ALL other churches were in the singular, thus speaking to the corporate whole.
If you practice sin, you aren't going to Heaven.
Period.
Jesus doesn;t call sin-practicers His People, not once anywhere.
No such thing as a "carnal Christian" in that sense...
That term was made up by false prophets to justify immorality and wickedness.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 20:17:24 GMT -5
OH!!! So you believe in loosing your salvation!!! ;D LOL!!!
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 21:25:58 GMT -5
I believe that if you DO "lose" your Salvation that there is no chance of repenting and regaining that Salvation, since Scripture declares there is NO forgivess for those who crucify the Son Of God afresh.
I do not follow the conditional security view which states you can be saved, lost and saved again.
I hesitate to say a prodigal is saved, but I have seen them return to the Lord.
Again, a backslider and one who falls away are world's apart.
David backslid.
Saul fell away.
Both sinned.
Two seperate results.
How do we know whether we're backslidden or fallen?
I'm not going to risk it by practining wickedness.
The danger is too great and too high a cost to pay.
I personally believe and clearly see that the individual in 1 cor 5 was a Christian who went into immorality; before blaspheming the Spirit, Paul charged the Church to boot him out and let him be ashamed.
In 2 cor this individual is restored as a result of church discipline.
Now, I know those on this board may not agree with this view, but that's ok.
I am persuaded.
I believe that God, as He left the Church to preach the Gospel, also left the Church to discipline sinning members for the END RESULT of restoration.
I see many today as lost, backslidden and fallen away as a direct result of coward shepherds who refuse to condemn sin in the camp.
I believe many in the church have refused to reach the lost, and the lost have payed greatly because of it.
In the same way, many of us have whitewashed sin and those who have backslidden have pated dearly, some by falling away into perdition.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 8, 2006 21:50:38 GMT -5
What I believe is that we are predestined.If were predestined than we are called and chosen and God would not choose those who will not follow.The question is that lots of people say that they are saved but don't live as though they are.Only God knows if they really are.Scripture says that there will be a falling away and than those who are really christians will stand out more and it will be more and more obvious who's a christian and whose not.
God says to come out from among them and be ye seperate.Its hard sometimes to know the wheat from the chaff.It has to be God's doing.Sadly movies like the Davinci Code will help bring that about.
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Post by aaron on May 9, 2006 2:33:55 GMT -5
2 Tim 2:20-21 (NKJV) 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
I don't see how there is a second work of grace. If someone repents and turns from all sin, they are sanctified and set apart for Gods purposes. This must happen at salvation (unless, as Jesse has already said, Wesley is refering to the erradication of the 'sinful nature' we are aparently born with).
If it is not refering to the 'sinful nature' then it would seem that the second work of grace is actually the first work of grace (Salvation). If the second work is entire sanctification (entirley setting yourself apart for God's service), the first work would merely be acknowledging that Gods ways are good and obedience would only be partial. But Christ said "Whoever does not forsake all that he has can not be my disciple". There is no partial obidience. It's everything or nothing.
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Post by Josh Parsley on May 9, 2006 8:10:32 GMT -5
I've heard some refer to this doctrine as "Instant Sanctification" ie at the instant you are born again you are 'set apart.'
The first verse in the bible that deals with sanctification was not a process.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
It didn't take God a million years to sanctify the 7th day. It doesn't take him a lifetime to sanctify us!
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 8:55:53 GMT -5
No such thing as a removal of the sinful nature.... such a teaching wouldn;t be very Biblical because Scripture nowhere tells us to seek such a thing... what Scripture does tell us is to put to death the deeds of the body...I die daily... etc etc....
How can you fight the Good Fight if there is no opponent?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 9, 2006 16:29:51 GMT -5
The born again believer not only recieved a new heart, but also becomes a "partaker of the divine nature". He will walk in "newness of life".
Can anyone think of any scriptures that say sanctification is a process? The only ones I can think of say "ye are sanctified".
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 17:38:43 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely; however, newness of life is for those who walk therein; what does Scripture say about the deeds of the body? I see two natures, as paul instructs over and over to not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, etc etc..... in order for there to be lusts of the flesh there must be a nature yet in the Believer which is ungodly.
I'm not saying we FOLLOW that nature or give in to it, yet if ALL we had was a Divine nature, we wouldn't need grace, repentance etc etc......
Am I making sense here?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 9, 2006 18:43:10 GMT -5
Sanctification to me just means "set apart", that's it.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:18:37 GMT -5
Sanctification to me just means "set apart", that's it. The definition of sanctify, rebecca, is not what you have said above.... you said that to YOU it means "set apart". The Biblical definiation is much more precise: Main Entry: sanc·ti·fy Pronunciation: -"fI Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -fied; -fy·ing to free from sinThis is one of the primary definitions, rebecca. How do you reconcile your personal view with the Bible's?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 9, 2006 19:18:54 GMT -5
The greek word for sanctify is "hagiazo" which means set apart or consecrate.
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it; That He might sanctify and cleanse it with washing of water by the word.
After we are saved we are God's and our bodies are not our own but we are bought with a price.Another words God OWNS YOU.Even if you turn your back on Him He will come and find you even if your the only sheep in the world.If you rebel He disciplines you because as a father chaseneth the son in whom he delights so God chastens you.
Cleansing comes by the washing of water by the word.Another name for Jesus is "the word".
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:20:37 GMT -5
Again, the word sanctify, has, a primary meaning, "to free from sin".
You list only one primary while giving no regard or not knowing of the others.
Yes, you are correct; however, so this is this one as there are a total of 4 primary's, while the one I list is primary number 2.
So again, how do you reconcile this?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 9, 2006 19:24:26 GMT -5
Did you read the last post ?
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:30:35 GMT -5
I was writing while you posted lol
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 9, 2006 19:56:57 GMT -5
Temptation could come from a normal, natural nature. We all have natural desires however when these natural desires go uncontrolled, then they bring forth sin.
Jas 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
This scripture talks about a "lust" that comes before sin.
Adam was created absolutely perfect in the image of God. Yet he was still tempted and still gave into sin. He is a perfect example of how one does not need a sinful nature to be tempted nor to sin.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 20:35:05 GMT -5
humm.... you're right and yes, temptation can come from WITHOUT.
So this could then be mistaken for the sinful nature?
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Post by evanschaible on May 12, 2006 11:13:02 GMT -5
It seems that two threads were running side by side? The eradiication of original sin thread was just on this topic....strange.
Temptation is from without. God will not tempt us, and if your redeemed then all that is in you is God. The old nature is passed away with all things, and become new. We simply have to walk in faith act in faith and look unto, and abide in Jesus. If we do this, then we WILL be sanctified entirely, through and through. God is faithful to his promises, God wills our santification, so faith is all that is needed.
Thejust shall live by faith.
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Post by Jules on May 12, 2006 16:48:31 GMT -5
We turned "Naming the name of Christ" into a tract called "The Sinning Saint". It is my favorite tract to hand out to professing Christians. quote] Jesse, do you guys sells any of the tracts you make? I have always liked the picture on this one, have on idea what you wrote, but doubtless it is good as well. I'd like to buy some and pass out to false converts when I meet them
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Post by Jules on May 12, 2006 17:05:42 GMT -5
What I believe is that we are predestined.If were predestined than we are called and chosen and God would not choose those who will not follow.The question is that lots of people say that they are saved but don't live as though they are.Only God knows if they really are. Rebecca, EVERYONE God chose would not have followed Him. No one seeks God, remember? It is Him that draws us, and we can't come to Christ apart from the Father revealing the Son to us (John 6) Every single person on the planet from the time of Adam has deserved hell, and was hell-bound. God's grace is what prevents anyone from going to hell. But we certainly all deserve it. So he doesn't choose us based on anything in and of ourselves, or our response, He chooses us simply as a result of His grace. Undeserving favor. If we begin attaching "it's because we did or didn't do this or that" then salvation becomes a work of man, and not a work of grace. Initially, it is grace, then faith. The question then becomes, who is responsible for us having faith? If we are sanctified by faith, is it OUR faith or the faith given to us AFTER we've receieved God's grace? We are saved by grace, through faith. I believe if we are first receipients of GOd's grace in terms of initial conversion, then we are immediately sanctified, but faith also plays a role. But who is responsible for it: us, God, or both somehow? That would be the key to discovering how we are sanctified by faith, if we are at all.
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Post by Jules on May 12, 2006 17:08:39 GMT -5
The born again believer not only recieved a new heart, but also becomes a "partaker of the divine nature". He will walk in "newness of life". Can anyone think of any scriptures that say sanctification is a process? The only ones I can think of say "ye are sanctified". the first one that comes to mind is "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" - or is that not the same? Where is RevK and his knowledge of Greek? I want to know if the word for sanctify is a present tense active verb, as the word for faith is. If so, then that would explain why it always says "ye are sanctified" (which would mean also that we are BEING sancitified) if it is indeed present perfect tense. But I don't know if it is. Anyone??
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Post by Jules on May 12, 2006 17:12:20 GMT -5
Last week I was doing a study again on OT consecration. There is a definate order to things. I posted this as a question on a thread before, about pursuing holiness. I'll repost a portion of it here in a minute, but essentially, the Hebrew word in the OT and NT was interesting...
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Post by rebecca01 on May 12, 2006 18:33:37 GMT -5
Jules, Your right that we did not choose Him but He chose us but we were predestined still.God knew that we would choose Him.He knew you before the world began.You were predestined before you were born.God knows everything!!!
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