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Post by josh on May 13, 2006 1:12:20 GMT -5
Is Mr. Wilkerson a false prophet?
I was informed that in his book "The Vision" he prophesied things that would occur within a decade of writing, but they never came about. Now I have this book, but haven't read it, as I don't want to waste time reading something if it is just a bunch of false prophecy.
So what is people's take on this?
Also I was reading Charismatic Chaos, by John MacArthur, and he to mentions this.
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 13, 2006 3:54:07 GMT -5
You must have listened to Geisler's audio I see.
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Post by tomah on May 13, 2006 4:45:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I would like to hear more here.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 13, 2006 7:00:36 GMT -5
Ive listened to David Wilkerson alot since I got saved 16 years ago.I like reading his messages.He is usually right on when it comes to his preaching.
He always has said that he doesn't claim to be a prophet just another of the Lord's watchman.I personally have not seen any of his prophesies fulfilled yet.One of them was a stock market crash that were not supposed to recover from.The other one he says he believes will happen in his lifetime.This one is supposed to be in his words "...far, far worse.." than 911. He says New York city is going to be ablaze.People will leave and never return agin.Violence such as the world has never seen.Worse than the riots in L.A.He also said that he had a vision of tanks rolling through the streets trying to keep order. I would never call David Wilkerson a false prophet even if I never saw any of his prophesies fulfilled.He is too much of a godly man.
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Post by biblethumper on May 13, 2006 9:17:38 GMT -5
let us see what Wilkerson says about all of this, and what he would do if some of his words did not come to pass.... (the following is the very reason WHY I love thsi Man of God!): PS: Rebecaa, if you own a copy of the "The Vision", you will note that in 1972 he had this Vision, and one part of it has come to pass, 100%.... that of homosexual ordination and acceptance in the church. At the time he said that thsi would happen, homosexuals were "in the closet", their practice being a criminal offence in many states and provinces, such as mine. David Wilkerson said they would be accepted and ORDAINED. It has come to pass WORLDWIDE. He also state dthat though it would not be widespread, certain churches would accept nude dancing as "a form of worship". When an offshoot of the Toronto Blessing hit the United Kingdom, I can easily send you to the PENTECOSTAL Church where thsi took place; yes, the NUDE dancing. Other instances are recorded by Yacov Prasch, pentecostal conservative, showing Wilkerson's word in that part of his Vision to also have taken place. There are others, and more to come, yet the homosexual ordination is what blasted my mind. No one at that time would have thought! It's come to pass, globally. Wilkerson Newsletter: May 22, 2000 Dearly Beloved: PEACE AND JOY TO YOU IN CHRIST OUR LORD. I am going to do my best to answer a number of questions asked by some of our readers. Hopefully you will know our hearts as I share. Question #1: "You pastor a very large church. Does any of my support to your ministry go to the church? Times Square Church ought to be able to pay for its own needs. I really prefer that my missions gifts go directly to the needs of the poor and homeless." Answer: Times Square Church is self-supporting. No gift to this ministry goes to the support of the church. However, some gifts do assist in some of the church's missions outreaches to devastated areas overseas. (This is explained in #5.) Question #2: "As a pastor of a small church, I was deeply bothered by your suggestion that disgruntled Christians start their own church at home, using video tapes of your Times Square Church services. A few in our church who disagree with me have left and started their own meetings, and they seem determined to shut us down. Do you really believe you heard from the Lord on this?" Answer: Truthfully, I did not pray this matter through as I should have. It has been a flop. We received probably less than 150 responses, and only a handful have conducted meetings. God has blessed it only in remote areas where there are no churches within miles. I am a pastor - I know the importance of being part of a body of believers, under God-appointed pastors and leaders. And I have repented before the Lord for not acknowledging him on this matter. God knows my heart - and he has gently let the idea die. We will continue to make our videos available, but we are not advocating home churches. Question #3: "Your last book warned of a coming depression. You have been saying for a long time that the stock market is going to blow and America would be chastened by an economic holocaust. I believed you, even though you say you are not a prophet. But there seems to be no sign of a crash. Will you apologize if it doesn't happen reasonably soon?" Answer: I do not understand God's mercy to America. It could only be his extended mercy that has caused God to not yet chasten our nation. I do not want it to happen. We have a ministry to many needy people, and an economic collapse would affect all we do. In prayer, I have told the Lord I am ready at any time to confess I am wrong - that I must have spoken from my own fears or that I have spoken unadvisedly. Recently, when the market reached record highs, I wondered if those calling me a false prophet were right. But I know how diligently I seek God. I know what it's like to weep and groan before the Lord as the Holy Spirit shows me what is coming. No matter what others think, I cannot shake off the urgency of the Holy Spirit to warn God's people. Every time I am shut in with God, fasting and praying, I hear the trumpet blowing. I hear God's still, small voice saying, "It is coming. It will happen suddenly. Forget the criticism - warn the people." I believe what I have been warning about - more than ever! The speculative boom is almost over. The balloon is about to burst. No matter how high the market goes, it is going to collapse. I don't know when but I do know it is certain. God will not delay much longer. The next American president is going to preside over a deeply troubled economy. Question #4: "I am confused by your statement: 'Divorce is never an option.' Are you saying it is not an option when there has been wife beating, unfaithfulness, homosexuality, etc.? I've been divorced because of an abusive husband - but you make it sound like I had no choice." Answer: I should have made myself clearer on this subject. I believe the Lord made an exception for divorce in the case of adultery. And there are other legitimate reasons for divorce. To discover you have married a homosexual is a hopeless situation. So is the case with physical abuse. My point is: Divorce is not an option for married Christians who refuse to seek God for reconciliation. It takes two to hold a marriage together. I have seen many "hopeless" marriages miraculously healed. Nothing is impossible with God. Often, just one praying mate has saved a marriage. Question #5: "Why don't you tell us more about the miracles happening in your charitable outreaches? I would like to hear more about life changes and what God is doing among the hopeless addicts and the demon possessed. I'd like to know much more about your street-people ministry. Just what is it you are asking me to support? Answer: We plan to send out a full ministry report in the near future. For all who are new to our ministry, here is a short overview: I started in New York City in 1958, working with gangs and drug addicts. We called the ministry TEEN CHALLENGE. It quickly grew worldwide. There are now more than 300 in-patient care centers here in the U.S. and in nations overseas with the highest cure rate in the world, through the power of Christ. Though I founded Teen Challenge, each center is now autonomous and self-supporting. My own ministry organization is WORLD CHALLENGE. Through this interdenominational organization, we started many outreaches and ministries to the poor, the addicted and the homeless. We started TIMES SQUARE CHURCH twelve years ago. We founded Sarah House for addicted and abused women. We also take in their children. (One of our women has five children. We take in all the women's children, no matter how many.) We help fund five addiction rehab centers in New York City. We have the Raven ministry, delivering food to the street people around the city. We tithe 10 per cent on every dollar sent to us to reach starving people around the world. We help feed over 100,000 hungry children through Latin American Childcare. We feed hungry children in Kosovo, Romania and thousands of homeless people in ravaged Mozambique. These are just a few of the many outreaches we are involved in. A closing word: A number of people have stopped supporting our ministry. I suppose I've offended them. It seems I offend a lot of people, no matter what I write. But I trust I am obeying the Lord. We are not broke. We are not in debt. God has been good. I'm just baffled over why those who know I seek to give truth and spiritual food have stopped supporting this vital ministry. I'm confident the Lord will help us as he has done so faithfully in the past. It would be so encouraging to hear from more of our readers. God bless and keep you. His bondservant, David Wilkerson www.tscpulpitseries.org
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Post by messengermicah on May 13, 2006 11:58:17 GMT -5
Some of the prophet's prophecies in the bible did not come to pass either, because the people took the warning seriously and repented. Very often, that is the purpose of a prophetic word.
You cannot always judge whether someone is a true prophet or a false prophet by whether or not what they say happens. Read Jeremiah 18 and Deuteronomy 13.
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Post by biblethumper on May 13, 2006 12:05:07 GMT -5
True; there are different modes of prophetic words, some conditional and others unconditional.
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Post by Jules on May 13, 2006 13:51:13 GMT -5
Some of the prophet's prophecies in the bible did not come to pass either, because the people took the warning seriously and repented. Very often, that is the purpose of a prophetic word. You cannot always judge whether someone is a true prophet or a false prophet by whether or not what they say happens. Read Jeremiah 18 and Deuteronomy 13. if this is true, then how do we argue that people like Joseph Smith, Mohammed, and others were indeed false prophets? I guess I just believed the scripture that says we know someone is a false prophet if their prophecies do not come to pass, or if they prophesy peace.
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Post by evanschaible on May 13, 2006 15:41:34 GMT -5
I guess we should stop listening to brother Ravenhill and reading his books then. In many sermons he would say things like, "God is going to pour his spirit out in the days that I am living", or "The world is going to be shook by a mighty spiritual earthquake". Brother Ravenhill died broken hearted because there was no revival. So is he also a false prophet?
Think of it like this, there is a difference between prophecy and passionate sermons and writings. Brother Wilkerson teaches no false doctrine (that I am aware of, dont even jump on me DARC, I dont care what Corner says), he says nothing to draw people to himself, only to draw people to Jesus. Mohammed, Smith, Bhudda,and the like denied Christ, or taughts doctrins that denied Jesus, that is how we can write them off so quickly.
David Wilkerson has made many a bold statement, but I ask you, has Jesus returned yet? John the apostle never saw his prophecies come to pass, neither did Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah. Now I am not putting Wilkerson on the same plane of them, I am just telling you that we cant write off a faithful servant of the lord like that. We wont be able to tell if he is false until the judgementseat.
Again I say, Smith, Mohammed and those false pophets DENY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IN VARIOUS WAYS. We have to put much more examination into men known to be faithful to the Bible and the Lord Jesus.
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Post by biblethumper on May 13, 2006 16:53:27 GMT -5
Let's clear this up right now: First of all, ANYONE, show me ANY of Wilkerson saying "within a decade so and so shall come to pass". SHOW ME. Hearsay is unacceptable. Give the evidence. I happen to have the Book and the sermon audio. He claimed some things will take place while others are ahead into the future. Also, though I just love John Macarthur and his presentation on Charismatics, he is not the Biblical authority, as he is a Cessasionist. He's also blatantly wrong if he mad ethat statement, Josh. Why? I own the book. Wilkerson did NOT say all would be fulfuilled in a decade. Here is a link to his sermon, "The Vision" www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=11Tell me if the things said about Wilkerson are correct; if they are not, we have an obligation to publically rebuke those who falsely rebuked our brother and to then stay away from such ministries which are proven to be riddled with error.
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Post by rebecca01 on May 13, 2006 18:22:16 GMT -5
I bear witness to alot of David Wilkerson's prophesies.His son also prophesied that the church was going to go into exile which is something that I have always believed.Except for the sake of my family I would never step foot into the church Im going to now.I don't judge anyone there and Im not saying that they are not well meaning because maybe they are but I cringe at the soft preaching and the jokes our pastor tells.I would much rather be torchered and killed sometimes than have to listen to that.For real!!! Biblethumper, I didn't know that some of his prophesies have been fulfilled.I believe him myself because like I said, he's a godly man.
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Post by tomah on May 13, 2006 18:47:41 GMT -5
First of all, ANYONE, show me ANY of Wilkerson saying "within a decade so and so shall come to pass".
Well this comes pretty close - "I believe what I have been warning about - more than ever! The speculative boom is almost over. The balloon is about to burst. No matter how high the market goes, it is going to collapse. I don't know when but I do know it is certain. God will not delay much longer. The next American president is going to preside over a deeply troubled economy."
He says, "In prayer, I have told the Lord I am ready at any time to confess I am wrong" But surely someone who makes 'prophecies' from the Lord should NEVER be wrong! I don't get it. Plus, some of the prophecies don't seem to have much relevance. By that I mean, it wouldn't make much difference if we knew them or not. Biblical prophecies are not like that.
I don't know much about the man, only what I am reading here.
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Post by biblethumper on May 13, 2006 18:53:47 GMT -5
You said: Well this comes pretty close....
"Pretty close" is unacceptable
Careful on your words, brother.
I'm not defending WILKERSON; I'm trying to spare YOU.
God oesn;t operate on the "pretty close" statements.
Don't turn into a whitewashed hypocrite.
Keep the Faith, brother.
I correspond with TSC and I know their heart on a personal level.
Unless you know them, you should probably GO to them and ask these questions.
I did.
I asked alot.
I received personal response.
Now, we praise God together.
You should do the same.
God bless.
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Post by tomah on May 13, 2006 19:01:07 GMT -5
"within the next decade" is just about as vague as the "next president" so I still think it's "pretty close" . Time will tell I suppose.
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Post by biblethumper on May 13, 2006 19:12:55 GMT -5
Yes, it will; that's a given.
Now, have you gone to Pastor David or Neil?
Please do, as you'll see the Spirit of God in humility in Pastor Wilkerson.
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Post by ejuliot on May 13, 2006 21:39:11 GMT -5
I haven't heard any of this stuff from David Wilkerson but I hear it from my dad every day. I got out of school about two weeks ago and I am stuck at home. Everyday he gives me these long talks about how our world is falling apart and the coming judgment on America. I think he even said the stock market is going to crash. How ironic!Hehehehe! ;D
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 0:07:54 GMT -5
You must have listened to Geisler's audio I see. Nope, a friend was saying about it.
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 0:17:45 GMT -5
I have found these comments about Wilkerson: 1. No More Gospel On TV By 1999? He preached this in the Solomon Church in December of 1994: "Right now I sense in my spirit that in less than 5 years there will be no more so-called gospel television networks. They will all fall into bankruptcy and absolute ruin." 2. 1000 Fires InN New York City Due To Race Riots In 1993? From a prophecy of September 7, 1992: "I have had recurring visions of over 1,000 fires burning at one time here in New York city. I am convinced race riots will soon explode! New York City is right now a powder keg-ready to blow!...federal and State Welfare cutbacks will be the spark that ignites the fuse. Next year, New York City could have over 100,000 angry men on the streets, enraged because they have been cut off from benefits....Federal troops will have to move in to restore order. New York City will have tanks running down its avenues....Churches will be closed for a season because it will be too dangerous to travel about. Fires will rage everywhere." 3. Financial Crash In 2000? On April 15 of that year, Wilkerson prophesied this: "For the last two years I have been crying aloud, warning all who would hear that America is receiving her last call and that judgment is at the door. I did not say this was the end of the nation, but the last call before a financial crash." "I am writing this letter to you on Saturday, April 15, 2000. I have on my desk the headlines in yesterday's paper: "BLACK FRIDAY - BIGGEST ONE-DAY DROP IN HISTORY." The Dow fell 618 points - the Nasdaq fell 355. I do not know what is coming in the next sixty days. If the market bounces back, I can assure you it will be temporary. THE CRASH IS INEVITABLE - NOTHING CAN STOP IT." To his credit, he admitted his mistake after the non-event, after the market instead of crashing, reached a record high on May 22 of that year: "In prayer, I have told the Lord I am ready at any time to confess I am wrong - that I must have spoken from my own fears or that I have spoken unadvisedly. Recently, when the market reached record highs, I wondered if those calling me a false prophet were right." www.gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/wilkerson/wilkerson.htmAny comments?
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 7:19:27 GMT -5
Josh,
I do not think David Wilkerson is a false prophet. I used to always read his newsletters and they were very challenging, full of conviction, and a blessing.
I am not judging your heart because I think your motives are pure, but I think you need to be careful. The reason I say this is because David Wilkerson has some influence in this country. Many godly people receive his newsletters. When all these people here about these impending judgments on America they humble themselves and cry out to God for mercy. Again, much of the purpose of a prophetic word is for people to take it seriously, humble themselves, repent, so they can be spared. Sometimes this is possible sometimes it is not possible. Joel said "Who knows if the Lord will repent and leave a blessing?" We don't know, but we need to take the warning seriously and go into prayer and repentance. 2 Chronicles 7:14.
Very often 2 Chronicles 7:14 only happens after a word of impending judgment on a nation.
Alot of those things you posted have not happened yet, but I could see them happening in the future.
When God's people repent sometimes it delays the judgment, sometimes it lessens the amount of judgment, and sometimes it is too late.
Please read Jeremiah 18 and Deuteronomy 13.
In Deuteronomy 13 it tells us a false prophet will tell us to follow false gods. That is not David Wilkerson.
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 7:35:23 GMT -5
I am not saying he is a false prophet but merely looking at what he has said.
But if he has said things, and gave a time saying when they would occur. Then they didn't happen, that means he didn't speak prophecy from God, and makes him a false prophet. God's prophets are 100% right, as they don't speak from themselves but from God.
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 10:04:25 GMT -5
That is probably what you have been taught but it is not completely accurate.
Jonah's prophecy did not come to pass because the people repented. Jonah did not say Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days unless you repent. He just said Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days. He gave a time frame. It did not happen. People took it seriously. He gave them no way out. People are more likely to take a prophecy of judgment seriously if they think their is no way out. If their is a way out they tend to become complacent.
According to the standard you are using, Jonah was a false prophet, because what he prophesied did not come to pass.
It is possible that Joel's prophecy would not come to pass if the people repented (Joel 2:14).
Have you read Jeremiah 18:7-10? I have asked you to read this before. I want to hear your input on it. How do you think God was going to speak unto a nation? Through the prophet (Amos 3:7).
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 10:23:22 GMT -5
Jonah wasn't a false prophet because he spoke what God told him to say.
How does God speak to the nation today? Hebrews 1:1-2 makes that clear. Do we need prophets today? No, check Ephesians 2:20
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Post by biblethumper on May 14, 2006 11:05:51 GMT -5
Josh, as asked, have you gone to David privately FIRST and received a response?
If not, why are you asking US, who are only participants in a thread?
I could call you a hireling, sent to destroy and tear down those called of God; however, I believe you're sincere in your attempts here, but sincerely wrong.
Go to Wilkerson, brother.
Ask him about these things befor eyou go on a posting rampage against someone you haven;t even spoken with privately.
This is sinful.
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 11:11:59 GMT -5
I have to ask, would you say the same thing if someone posted a thread saying "Is Benny Hinn a false prophet?" or "Kenny Copeland?"
From what I have seen he has made a few questionable calls, now are we to contend earnestly for the faith without asking questions about people?
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Post by biblethumper on May 14, 2006 11:17:01 GMT -5
Josh, you are correct, we ARE to ask etc etc.... Concerning Copeland, Hinn, etc etc.... I went to these men personally and privately before I ever publically said a word to them or about them. An example is Billy Graham. Many say he's "false" because on the Robert Shuller show he claimed people can go to Heaven without knowing Jesus. People ran with it. I went to Bill. Guess what? I hold the letter where he has asked for forgiveness and also stated that he made a horrible mistake and that at that time he should NEVER have said such things. Most still call him false; I see a different story, as I hold the repentance letter. GO PRIVATELY FIRST Now, please answer. Will you go to Wilkerson privately or will you continue to pose a hypothetical question after question?
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Post by josh on May 14, 2006 11:23:18 GMT -5
Well orignally this thread was to ask about "The Vision" but I will email Wilkerson and see what he says
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Post by biblethumper on May 14, 2006 11:26:17 GMT -5
I know that you will receive a response, and that you'll be quite surprised as to how open these men and women are, Josh.
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 18:24:32 GMT -5
Josh,
I honestly believe you are not being open to what I am saying in this discussion. I have asked you several questions, made several points, and all you responded with was we don't need prophets today. I have not been sarcastic or unreasonable. I have pointed out many things to you.
You said that if a prophecy did not come to pass then the person saying it was a false prophet. I pointed out that you have to be careful with this because then by the standard you are using Jonah was a false prophet. He gave a time frame and what he said did not come to pass.
I asked you to read Jeremiah 18:7-10 and asked for your thoughts on it more than once and you never responded.
Now I am getting the impression you are more interested in being right here than the truth. Now you have changed what you said earlier by saying Jonah was a true prophet because he said what God told him to say. By the standard you are using on Wilkerson you would also categorize him as a false prophet because his prophecy did not come to pass.
Just as a side issue, David Wilkerson along with Leonard Ravenhill never claimed themselves to be prophets.
I also think you are being dogmatic on an issue you have not studied out for yourself about there being prophets today.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and not put words in your mouth. It sounds like you are saying there are no prophets today, but what you actually said is we don't need prophets today.
Either way I believe you are incorrect. Read Ephesians 4:11-15. Has the body of Christ come to unity in the faith yet? Have we come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet? Of course not. So God is still giving apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to mature and equip the body of Christ.
Do believe in pastors Josh? This is the only scripture in the new testament where we find that word. How about evangelists?
The verse you quoted in Ephesians 2:20 confirms there are apostles and prophets today, but their life and message must be built on Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, in Revelation 11 God calls His two witnesses prophets. Is this speaking of past events or future?
God can speak to people in several ways. By His word, by His Spirit, by men of God, dreams, visions, etc.
When a man of God is speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and we are receiving information it is still God speaking to that person (Hebrews 1:1-2).
I certainly do not agree that all these people running around with titles in front of their names are true apostles and prophets. I think Brother Yun from the Heavenly Man book was a true apostle.
I am trying to be reasonable and truthful here. I hope you are honestly searching for the truth in this matter.
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Post by biblethumper on May 14, 2006 18:35:13 GMT -5
Messengermicah, there is one problem with one statement you said.... actually, with Wilkerson's and ravenhill's statements. I also have heard these claim to "not be prophets". However, to not claim a prophetic office and yet to act like one, speak like one and operate like one....well, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...chances are it's a duck So, though I do not believe for one moment that either Ravenhill or Wilkerson are in any way false, I also believe that saying "I'm not a prophet" is a cop-out. Wilkerson's book, "The Vision", reads like the Book of Ezekiel. To say "Im not a prophet" is to avoid accountability, at least this is how it looks in the eyes of some. So, anyone can claim whatever they want, yet if they operate contrary to their verbal confession, I can see why some are confused with such ministries. Don't claim to NOT be what you;ve been DOING for decades. This is certainly not an indictment against Brother Wilkerson or Ravenhill! I have four primary sources of CONSISTENT spiritual meat (apart from my home fellowship) 1- Personal friend and father in the faith, Pastor Daniel Jalbert. 2- Carter Conlon 3- David Wilkerson 4- Leonard ravenhill So, I love all of these Brethren! So, let's not play on words......you act like a prophet and speak like a prophet and prophesy like a prophet.... well, don't claim to be anything BUT a prophet
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Post by tomah on May 14, 2006 18:41:31 GMT -5
Josh, you are correct, we ARE to ask etc etc.... Concerning Copeland, Hinn, etc etc.... I went to these men personally and privately before I ever publically said a word to them or about them. An example is Billy Graham. Many say he's "false" because on the Robert Shuller show he claimed people can go to Heaven without knowing Jesus. People ran with it. I went to Bill. Guess what? I hold the letter where he has asked for forgiveness and also stated that he made a horrible mistake and that at that time he should NEVER have said such things. Most still call him false; I see a different story, as I hold the repentance letter. GO PRIVATELY FIRST Now, please answer. Will you go to Wilkerson privately or will you continue to pose a hypothetical question after question? Man, Graham must do everything to try and keep everybody happy. Did he ever go public with this apparent repentance? He still sends Roman Catholics back to the Roman Catholic church and thought that the last pope was the greatest Christian witness in the world. Bob Jones II and Ian Paisley knew him and were friendly with him years ago before he went into the evangelical 'business' and they wrote him letters and contacted him to try and warn him about what he was doing and what he was getting himself in to, but he never listened sadly.
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