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Post by oap001 on Aug 13, 2006 16:02:20 GMT -5
Does God need or require me to carry out Judgement for violence? Why does God allow violence? Why does God allow man to sin? Why dosent God swiftly carry out judgement to the man attacking my child? Is god not able to protect my child? What qualifies as a justibiable ammount of force? If the attacker has a gun am I at liberty to shoot first? If I defend with a weapon, how do I control the ammount of force administered by the weapon? What if..................................... Are you asking me or your child who is being attacked? I guess if you really had Godly affection for your fellow man you wouldn't have to ask so many ridicules questions.
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Post by jhopper on Aug 13, 2006 18:03:28 GMT -5
Am I obligated by God to preseve the life of my fellow man or my family? Or Both...... which do I preserve?
What qualifies as a "justifiable ammount of force"?
Is it my responsibilty to defend others; if it is, is it ok to wear a cape with an "S" on it?
If its my responsibilty to defend others why dosent God spell out the use of justifiable force?................... He did for the Jews
Can I perfectly administer justice in the face of an attack against my family; If I need to use force can I administer the "justifiable ammount of force" without wrath anger or fury?
Do I really (agape) my fellow man with a "gun in one hand and a Bible in the other"
If Jesus told me to "love your enemies, bless them that persecute you and do good to them that despitefully use you" can I effectively asccomplish the same while returning evil for evil?
Here is a clip of an article I found from a yahoo search. It defines agape Love; it is from a nominal 'christian website"
"Agape Love is self-sacrificial.
John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
What is implied is that such love is not based upon personal incentives. Such a person is not asking "what do I get out of it". Notice for example the Apostle Paul's attitude towards his unbelieving Jewish brethren:
"I speak the truth in Christ— I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Romans 9:1-4 Which also reflects Moses' attitude as well saying, "please forgive their sin— but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."Exodus 32:32 If it were possible for you, as a Christian, to give up your salvation and go to hell on behalf of someone else, would you do it? That's agape love. "
If God "agape'ed" me while I was yet a sinner and enemy against him, am I truly reflecting the agape love God showed towards me by defending myself with "a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other" in the face of a violent act towrds myself or family?
Jesus taught "For if you forgive your fellow man theyre tresspasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you forgive men not theyre trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses"
If I (in selfdefense) murder another am I forgiving or self preserving?
"Agape Love is self-sacrificial. John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
Why is the predominate msessege in 'christendom' "love" yet no one is willing to (agape)?
If I defend myself or family is it because I am afraid of death?
If one attacks (me) to murder (me) is the attackee (me) justified in murdering the attacker?
Is murderd murder when I am attacked first; my family is attacked first; a stranger is attacked first?
What if I attempt to subdue my attacker and accidently kill him?
What if?
Do you feel comfortable sending a sinner to hell? If you do why would you put your life on the line while preaching to sinners?
would you be a hypocrite if you defended yourself while other werent looking in order to "preserve your wittness"
How many have to be looking to not retaliate in the face of an attack?
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Post by oap001 on Aug 13, 2006 19:01:38 GMT -5
Can I love my fellow man with a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other? It may not be a really good analogy. But yes...of course you can. Having love for your fellow man doesn't mean, "Don’t defend your family." Do you love your family?? It doesn't mean that "protection" or using force is sin. To live Holy we are required to protect one and other. The Bible analogy is a reference to obeying God in doing that. It would be right. Love means, among other things, to ensure one and others security.
Force is justified to stop an attack against yourself or against someone else who is in immediate threat of bodily harm.
When the attack stops then the force must stop. The amount of force that is used in defense is determined by the attacker.
I believe that if you look at some of the verses that I posted. That you will find that God does instruct us to use force when necessary.
I think you are confused where you think we are using force as a way of casting some kind of judgment. Or using force as a means of revenge. When the Bible speaks of protecting the poor. That a committed Christian would not fail to protect even the least among us.
Would you protect a small child that was being beaten? You never answered that question, so I guess I can take that as a no. I must tell you that your thinking is very wicked. Shame on you...the Bible says cowards will be judged! You are one jhopper and don't take this as I am intending to insult you. I am not...you are one that is not worthy to be a disciple. Truly.. I am ashamed of you. You have no excuse not to defend a small child. Unless you are wicked yourself.
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Post by jhopper on Aug 14, 2006 11:35:02 GMT -5
Lord Bless you...
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Post by oap001 on Aug 14, 2006 13:09:41 GMT -5
May He convict you.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 14, 2006 13:27:08 GMT -5
Neither are you. And neither am I for that matter... I haven't met anyone who is worthy to be saved and a disciple.
At least jhopper has examples in the NT of someone not defending themself. You have none of a "bible in one hand and a gun in another."
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Post by oap001 on Aug 14, 2006 13:41:48 GMT -5
Neither are you. And neither am I for that matter... I haven't met anyone who is worthy to be saved and a disciple. At least jhopper has examples in the NT of someone not defending themself. You have none of a "bible in one hand and a gun in another." jhopper said that one is not a deciple if he or she uses force. That is whay I made the comment. To love your neighbor you must defend them. Especially a small child. Thats Christianity 101.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 13:56:22 GMT -5
I don't think jhopper is making a distinction between being attacked for the name of Jesus and being attacked period. If I am walking down the street with my wife, and someone jumps out and starts attacking us, of course I am going to defend my wife.
My motive is not to hurt someone for the sake of pleasure, but the motive is love for my wife. That is virtuous. The same goes for any defenseless person.
Some of the questions from jhopper seem a little ridiculous. I wonder if he puts on a seatbelt in the car or locks his doors at night to protect his family.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 14, 2006 14:09:46 GMT -5
pachristianpatriot, doesn't make the distinction either. He said earlier it was ok for a preacher to defend himself if attacked while preaching. I am assuming (if I'm wrong PA let me know) he was meaning fighting back, not just blocking punches or something. We could discuss how to make the distinction or if there even is one.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 15:42:12 GMT -5
I don't know if he is making that distinction or not.
I am. I am not in favor of physically defending myself if attacked when preaching (and I have been several times).
I do not apply this to areas of defending my family or other defenseless people in everyday life when I am doing nothing to be persecuted.
I think it is the right thing to do, but it does not mean I look forward to physically roughing someone up who is attacking someone else.
When I worked in a juevenile justice institution, we had to restrain the guys sometimes and rough them up a bit. It was good because they had respect for staff. Nowadays I do not think they can do that anymore and the inmates have no respect for staff.
Aren't we supposed to physically discipline children? Would that be considered violence by the standards jhopper is using?
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Post by oap001 on Aug 14, 2006 16:31:42 GMT -5
I'm just basing my argument on the principal of self defence. I don't think it would be right to fight back while preaching. But if one was to sustain a serious injury. Then I couldn't fault someone who used force then as defence while preaching. Not to attack someone. Just to stop the assault.
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Post by jhopper on Aug 14, 2006 18:26:51 GMT -5
The questions are inumerable in relation to the use of force. In order to properly administer "Justifiable Force" the terms of justifiable force must be spelled out. God did this for Israel, however in the N.T. this concept is not adressed once. (jusifiable force) If the defense of the defenseless is your genuine concern PA I myself share the same. If defending the defenseless is our vocation on what plain do we carry it out. Christ didnt call us to be revolutionaries in the nomitive sense.
The reason I qued these questions is to prompt you to question legitimate concerns in relation to God permitting evil as well as anindividuals (as a Christian) responsibility to society in matters of philanthropy.
Read over the questions again, they are abreviated but legitimate. Question yourself......
Why does God permit Evil?
Why does Evil exisist?
Why do you fear rape murder theft? 2 Corinthians 1.5-10 2 Corinthians 3.9-18
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Post by oap001 on Aug 14, 2006 18:47:46 GMT -5
We have to be employed by the government in order to protect one and other?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 14, 2006 21:28:40 GMT -5
I ran across these quotes earlier tonight about David not killing Saul when we could have. David's deference to Saul is contrary to the wisdom of this age, the wisdom by which the world lives its life. When nothing else will work men will stretch forth their hands in violence, and justify it in order to obtain their ends. In the last analysis, you can know the true faith, because it will never resort to violence to obtain its ends. That religion that purports to be of God, and requires violence to obtain its ends, is by its very demonstration necessarily false. We have to be careful about violence ourselves not only in deed, but in speech.
Now David could have said, "Okay, if it is just my life, then let Saul take it. But listen, I am called to be the king of Israel, and out of my very loins will come a descendant, who will be the King forever, and the salvation of all mankind. When I see the intention of God for my life, then it has got to be preserved." David, however would not say that, for he knew that if God could not preserve what pertains to Him, then he himself would not do it by stretching out his hand. What David did in that moment had eternal ramifications, and the powers of the air knew it in the moment of that act.
This is the demonstration of the meekness of the Davidic kingdom. - Art Katz
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Post by jhopper on Aug 15, 2006 13:51:02 GMT -5
Agreed.
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Post by oap001 on Aug 15, 2006 15:27:26 GMT -5
I ran across these quotes earlier tonight about David not killing Saul when we could have. David's deference to Saul is contrary to the wisdom of this age, the wisdom by which the world lives its life. When nothing else will work men will stretch forth their hands in violence, and justify it in order to obtain their ends. In the last analysis, you can know the true faith, because it will never resort to violence to obtain its ends. That religion that purports to be of God, and requires violence to obtain its ends, is by its very demonstration necessarily false. We have to be careful about violence ourselves not only in deed, but in speech.
Now David could have said, "Okay, if it is just my life, then let Saul take it. But listen, I am called to be the king of Israel, and out of my very loins will come a descendant, who will be the King forever, and the salvation of all mankind. When I see the intention of God for my life, then it has got to be preserved." David, however would not say that, for he knew that if God could not preserve what pertains to Him, then he himself would not do it by stretching out his hand. What David did in that moment had eternal ramifications, and the powers of the air knew it in the moment of that act.
This is the demonstration of the meekness of the Davidic kingdom. - Art Katz There are different scenarios and different actions that could/would come into play depending, in part on one's conviction. I never said that Christianity should be advanced by violence. But I do believe in various methods of resistance. In the case of defending others who are in immediate threat of serious bodily harm. We have one option and that is to physically defend them.
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