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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 16, 2006 13:21:03 GMT -5
I was looking at the "wheat and tares" thread and seen some talk about violence in the name of Christianity. I would like to hear some input on this. How do you reconcile violence in the name of God and these verses? Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Here is the quote that caught my attention. No, we wouldn't be a resistance movement because the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. I have a very big problem with that and this opens up other doctoral issues. The use of force is justified at certain times. There is a time for war and we have a right to self defense. I say anyone who believes in pacifism is being deceived.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 16, 2006 14:40:38 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 3 :8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 16, 2006 20:02:52 GMT -5
How does that verse apply to what Jesus said? He said you have heard.. hate... I say love..
In Christianity, I can not ever think of a time to hate you enemies.
Can you explain your position in light of the scripture I posted?
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Post by oap001 on Jul 16, 2006 20:14:49 GMT -5
How does that verse apply to what Jesus said? He said you have heard.. hate... I say love.. In Christianity, I can not ever think of a time to hate you enemies. Can you explain your position in light of the scripture I posted? It's a poem that lists some things that will occur in a person's life. Things that will come and go. I don't think God is telling us to hate. But I do think He is saying that there is a time to fight and He is active in that. Are you trying to tell me that there is no just Biblically mandated war for the Christian? I'm not talking about advancing Christianity at th point of a sword. I'm talking about the right to resist.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 16, 2006 20:46:33 GMT -5
I'm just wanting some input.
Why do you believe that Christians have the right to resist evil, when Jesus said:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:
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Post by oap001 on Jul 16, 2006 21:39:24 GMT -5
I'm just wanting some input. Why do you believe that Christians have the right to resist evil, when Jesus said: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: I think you would have to look at that verse in contex. By your assumption, Jews whold have had no right to resist Hitler. What about police officers. What about the civil government punishing people with death. What about a woman resisting rape?
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Jul 16, 2006 22:18:52 GMT -5
I don't think this verse is talking about violence. If someone came and punched me on one cheek I would not give him my other cheek. I would try and defend myself and if need be fight back (hoping this would not be an option).
I think the above verse is giving an example of how to deal with people who speak harsh words to you, that you don't respond and just 'turn the other cheek'.
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Post by rebecca01 on Jul 17, 2006 5:49:09 GMT -5
I believe Jesus is not saying we should put ourselves in harms way on purpose but if someone told me to shut my mouth and God told me to speak than I would speak.If I were preaching and I was threatened physically or verbally than I would get back up and keep preaching.When Pilot told Jesus to answer Him the Father obviously told him not to and Jesus didn't and he suffered the consequences by getting hit.I felt threatened at the park the other day while preaching but I wasn't afraid and that didn't stop me it just made me bolder.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 17, 2006 12:59:56 GMT -5
I'm just wanting to know with using scripture your how you validate your beliefs. I didn't say I was swayed one way or another. I can't think of anywhere in the NT that there were violence used. Should the martyrs have fought back? You guys seem at act as if you would have. The reason I am asking is because I have had it brought up to me. I see verses like this that are hard to ignore.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
So we couldn't fight when He was on earth, but now that He is in us we can?
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 14:07:47 GMT -5
I'm just wanting to know with using scripture your how you validate your beliefs. I didn't say I was swayed one way or another. I can't think of anywhere in the NT that there were violence used. Should the martyrs have fought back? You guys seem at act as if you would have. The reason I am asking is because I have had it brought up to me. I see verses like this that are hard to ignore. Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. So we couldn't fight when He was on earth, but now that He is in us we can? I'll look through the NT in a few. I think if you look at the scripture as a whole on the use of force. That you will find that there is a time and place that it is justified. It's not about putting ourselves in the time or place. Its about finfing ourselves or our loved ones in that situation. Finding your family in the tribulation period, where you will be hunted and killed, God allows us to defend ourselves. The marters were a little diffferent because that was more of a "trial" situation. But the refermation was a kind of resistance I believe. Not a war but they resisted. If someone had a gun to your child's head would use defend them? And if not don't you think it would destroy you testimony? To the non believers who were watching?
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 14:18:43 GMT -5
These are the words of the president of Isreal today. I think they reflect on the Eccl 3:8.."Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more See there is a time for war. And also I wanted to say that a person who refused to fight for freedom does not deserve it.
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Post by ejuliot on Jul 17, 2006 14:31:50 GMT -5
I always thought that in the old testament the war was with men and in the new testament our war was spiritual.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
From experience and from reading about others in these situations, I think there is a huge difference between being violent and defending yourself. If someone came to punch me and I blocked their punch I am not being violent and I am defending myself. If someone came to punch me and I punched them back then that is violence. I think the Christian has the right to defend themselves and others (block punches...) but I think they cross a line when they punch back. As for turning the other check, in "The Heavenly Man" he talks about when the church was first persecuted the police would beat the Christians and they would ask them to hit them on the other check. While they were being beaten they were rejoicing and praising God. The police thought they were crazy and left them alone.
This is a little testimony...one time I was preaching the gospel to two boys and a drunk started punching me in the arm, at first I ignored him and then I tried to hold his hands down and then I tried to hold him away from me so that his punches couldn't reach me. I was trying to be very gentle with him because he was obviously very drunk. The two boys I was speaking with were shocked at what was happening. I thought I had been to rough with the guy and that I had blown my witness but my friend said that she was amazed that I didn't punch the guy back and that she thought that my reaction to the man really impacted the boys we were speaking to because they saw my reaction was not like the world's reaction.
I really think there is also a huge difference between a guy and a girl. A girl is expected to not react with instant anger but a guy is expected to lash out in anger, this is why I believe that men need to be extra careful in how they respond in those situations. I think someone is in the wrong if they are not responding in love or If their reaction is how the world would react in that situation. Maybe we should ask ourselves what would (did) Jesus do.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 15:17:16 GMT -5
I always thought that in the old testament the war was with men and in the new testament our war was spiritual. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) From experience and from reading about others in these situations, I think there is a huge difference between being violent and defending yourself. If someone came to punch me and I blocked their punch I am not being violent and I am defending myself. If someone came to punch me and I punched them back then that is violence. I think the Christian has the right to defend themselves and others (block punches...) but I think they cross a line when they punch back. As for turning the other check, in "The Heavenly Man" he talks about when the church was first persecuted the police would beat the Christians and they would ask them to hit them on the other check. While they were being beaten they were rejoicing and praising God. The police thought they were crazy and left them alone. This is a little testimony...one time I was preaching the gospel to two boys and a drunk started punching me in the arm, at first I ignored him and then I tried to hold his hands down and then I tried to hold him away from me so that his punches couldn't reach me. I was trying to be very gentle with him because he was obviously very drunk. The two boys I was speaking with were shocked at what was happening. I thought I had been to rough with the guy and that I had blown my witness but my friend said that she was amazed that I didn't punch the guy back and that she thought that my reaction to the man really impacted the boys we were speaking to because they saw my reaction was not like the world's reaction. I really think there is also a huge difference between a guy and a girl. A girl is expected to not react with instant anger but a guy is expected to lash out in anger, this is why I believe that men need to be extra careful in how they respond in those situations. I think someone is in the wrong if they are not responding in love or If their reaction is how the world would react in that situation. Maybe we should ask ourselves what would (did) Jesus do. Hi Ejuliot, First I wanted to say happy birthday. I agree with what you say. Even though I'm not at the point in my life where I would allow someone to punch me. It's a matter of dependence on the holly Spirit. I heard of a story where this guy allowed himself to be killed by a gang of men somewhere. The man had a weapon and it was later found fully loaded. So he did have the means to defend himself and I think that if he did that God would not have counted that as sin. But in this case he didn't want to distroy his witness. However we see Jesus coming back to physically fight in the second coming. With HIS ARMY...His Kingdom will be on this earth. So I feel that fighting during the trib will be necessary. Think about the agents of the anti-christ trying to not just hit us, but to exterminate us..forever. It's a call to arms. And also wars did not stop in the OT. The have continued up to this very day.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 17, 2006 16:03:05 GMT -5
Trust God. I would get in front of my child. I would probably warn the man with tears in my eyes to repent. If you have faith you can move mountains, and it doesn't say you will move them with a backhoe. The martyrs were hunted and killed it is the exact same thing. The early church was more than tried, they were in tribulation (not the great tribulation). How does the president of Israel affect what Jesus taught? I don't see your point. Well, I haven't fought for my freedom from sin- which is the only true freedom. I know I didn't deserve it. I don't want to be too bold but if someone plans on fighting physically for spiritual freedom a person will stay bound. What are His weapons? I agree. Jesus said to flee from persecution, not to fight it. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:" If the early church had the mentality to fight when persecuted, they would have died/fought in Jerusalem. Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. My understanding is the Isreal in the OT was an earthly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven, I believe, is heavenly.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 18:22:48 GMT -5
Trust God. I would get in front of my child. I would probably warn the man with tears in my eyes to repent. If you have faith you can move mountains, and it doesn't say you will move them with a backhoe. The martyrs were hunted and killed it is the exact same thing. The early church was more than tried, they were in tribulation (not the great tribulation). How does the president of Israel affect what Jesus taught? I don't see your point. Well, I haven't fought for my freedom from sin- which is the only true freedom. I know I didn't deserve it. I don't want to be too bold but if someone plans on fighting physically for spiritual freedom a person will stay bound. What are His weapons? I agree. Jesus said to flee from persecution, not to fight it. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:" If the early church had the mentality to fight when persecuted, they would have died/fought in Jerusalem. Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. My understanding is the Isreal in the OT was an earthly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven, I believe, is heavenly. The president of Isreal is acknowledging that war is necessary. Is is not? If your child was killed because of your failure to defend him his blood would be on your hands Josh. God requires us to physically defend one and other. I'm not calling you a coward. But it says in the Bible that cowards will be judged. We should not fear a fight. I don't think that you would plead with this would be killer. I think you would know exactly what to do. And that would use the right amount of force for self defense. Your belief on justifiable defense is not Biblical. And I am using this to point out that regardless of what you believe regarding the rapture. Those left behind will face these things. It would be a time to fight. With a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other. How do you account for failure to defend you children Josh. There is something wrong with that mentality. Show me in the Bible where God would call that sin. God is dealing with Isreal right now for their failure to defend themselves. There is no peace without justice. Onthis earth that requires the force of the rightous.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 17, 2006 21:35:04 GMT -5
I don't fear a fight. I've took Judo and boxing before. I choose not to use it. But far above that I don't have a spirit of fear.
I trust God. I've had a gun stuck to my stomach while OA preaching. I didn't knock the woman out when she pulled it out of her purse but stood there and preached. Only after the trigger was pulled several times and the woman started laughing did I notice it wasn't a real gun. It was black and looked real at the time.
I don't have children so it is only in theory what I would do.
I've been using scriptures to show this position (which I'm not 100% on it, but this thread seems to be pushing me in that direction). Let's not get emotional. I just want to talk scriptures, which I have tried to do. I would like for you to do the same.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 22:28:36 GMT -5
I don't fear a fight. I've took Judo and boxing before. I choose not to use it. But far above that I don't have a spirit of fear. I trust God. I've had a gun stuck to my stomach while OA preaching. I didn't knock the woman out when she pulled it out of her purse but stood there and preached. Only after the trigger was pulled several times and the woman started laughing did I notice it wasn't a real gun. It was black and looked real at the time. I don't have children so it is only in theory what I would do. I've been using scriptures to show this position (which I'm not 100% on it, but this thread seems to be pushing me in that direction). Let's not get emotional. I just want to talk scriptures, which I have tried to do. I would like for you to do the same. Thats fair enough Josh. I will search for some scripture. I like to view things in perceptional nature and then search the Bible for scripture. Not vice versa. I mean..you would be using a little bit of scripture to support a big concept. I'm basing my argument on a few simple concepts. One is: that we will give an account for defending our loved ones. Or failure to defend them. They should feel save and secure in out presence as men. And two: a manifestion of our faith in this area is to actually TRUST the Word of God and what it says. To secure their savety....physically. Israel allowed over 13,000 missiles into Lebanon....now they are looking at the truth that they must fight or die as a nation. God does not want that.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 23:09:59 GMT -5
Rev 12:7And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12-17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Rev 13: 7 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army
John 18: 36 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army
Ps 82:3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Ex 15:3The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name
Le 26:7And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword
ROMANS 13-1: 64 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Don't forget the entire Bible is perfect for instruction.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 17, 2006 23:21:07 GMT -5
Brother, you go from one extreme to the other. I didn't want to play scripture wars. How about expounding on some of that? Or commenting on what I posted before. Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. 1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth[not hand] goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. There is my list. I'm just messing with you brother. But honestly let's discuss this.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 17, 2006 23:53:46 GMT -5
Brother, you go from one extreme to the other. I didn't want to play scripture wars. How about expounding on some of that? Or commenting on what I posted before. Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. 1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth[not hand] goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. There is my list. I'm just messing with you brother. But honestly let's discuss this. Ok brother, Not sure where to really start. Other than, we have a right to self defence, even a mandate. It appears to me that you don't think so.
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Post by ebrayley on Jul 18, 2006 8:11:41 GMT -5
This topic is very complex. It isn't black or white... you can't just say: "No fighting ever" and you also can't say: "Fighting is acceptable." Like so many of the issues of the faith, we come up against a wall in our mental ability to understand the things of God in their entirety. The answer seems so close and in reach, but for some reason we don't grasp it. Whenever I come up against these questions, all I can think of is Psalm 131: Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever. The reality is that war exists, terribly bloodshed, murder, massacres and every kind of violent evil. Sadly, this is a part of the fallen world we live in. To ignore such behaviour is absurd (not saying this is what you are doing), yet many people do this. They shut out life's realities. You see, both of your sides are right... Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, absolutely. He Himself never took up the sword. However, like pachristianpatriot pointed out very well, when the Lord returns He comes to judge and make war, and also the Scripture from Exodus 15:3: "The Lord is a man of war..."I myself wouldn't hurt a fly and hate violence and would be the first to allow someone to beat me without striking back. However, I acknowledge the need for it... but there is a difference between not fighting back against someone giving you a wrongdoing and fighting a just war. Like I said, this is an incredibly complex issue and I don't have the answer. Let me just throw some thoughts out here: Had the Europeans not defeated the Muslims at Tours the world today would be predominately Islamic. I believe that God put a stop to that demonic advance for the sake of the gospel and He did it with the sword.
Had the Covenanters of Scotland not resisted the Romanists and Anglican's in the battles they fought the Presbyterian Church would not have emerged and so all that great history of revival in Scotland would not exist.
Had the Allies not fought back against the Nazis during that dark period of time Hitler and his regime of evil would have conquered Europe, perhaps even Russia... America... who knows? And needless to say millions of millions more people would have been slaughtered at the hands of those butchers.
Had Israel not fought for her life in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, etc there would be no Israel today. Remember, you cannot just sit back and say "God do it", for God has always worked THROUGH man, not without man. The Lord commanded Joshua to fight the enemies in the land, and Joshua had to go do it, yet the battle belongs to the Lord.
Should the world not check the Islamic's today and we let them alone to do their thing, appeasing them all the way... we would certainly find ourselves watching the world around us fall into nuclear, militant, bloody chaos at the hands of those terrorists.I believe there is a difference between what was said at the Sermon on the Mount and what was said to Joshua at the Jordan River. They are two completely different issues and so they don't contradict each other. I've thought and thought and thought about this... another mystery of life that will be explained when we know in full. "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:9-12
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 18, 2006 14:10:23 GMT -5
I'm just wanting to know who gave us that right and mandate. Is it something that is in our mind because of where we live and the government or because the Word of God says so? I just don't see the early church having the idea that we have a mandate to fight back. It seems they had just the opposite. Do you honestly believe that the early church should have took up swords and fought? I'm just questioning that if it isn't an "old testament" mentality to go to war. Israel was an earthly kingdom, right? Is the kingdom of God of this world? Or is it not of this world? If it is not of this world, they why do we use earthly measures to fight for it? In my mind it is a foreign (not to America, but in the NT) concept to use physical measures to defend a spiritual kingdom. I'm not questioning that certain "benefits" have come to us because of war. Yet, I've heard that many in persecution would rather have persecution than the "blessings" experiences in countries like the USA. I am questioning that if God calls Christians to fight in it or has used governments to do it. I think any power of government is controlled by God. Joh 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above... Those are things to think about Eli. It is a complex issue. I think it's odd when some say something like, "If persecution came it would purify us. It would show the real Christians. It may actually be a blessing if we were persecuted because of that." And then they would plan on shooting that "blessing?" That sounds like an internal conflict if someone has that mentality. Does what has been instilled in us as being in "free nations" conflict with what we know is true ie persecution vs fighting persecution? I don't know of any records of the early church using physical force, yet no one could stop the spreading of the Gospel. Is persecution a blessing? I'm just tossing some thoughts our there. Don't devour me as "deceived" or a heretic, please.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 18, 2006 14:25:37 GMT -5
What does the Bible say His weapon is? Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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Post by oap001 on Jul 18, 2006 14:45:38 GMT -5
I'm just wanting to know who gave us that right and mandate. Is it something that is in our mind because of where we live and the government or because the Word of God says so? I just don't see the early church having the idea that we have a mandate to fight back. It seems they had just the opposite. Do you honestly believe that the early church should have took up swords and fought? I'm just questioning that if it isn't an "old testament" mentality to go to war. Israel was an earthly kingdom, right? Is the kingdom of God of this world? Or is it not of this world? If it is not of this world, they why do we use earthly measures to fight for it? In my mind it is a foreign (not to America, but in the NT) concept to use physical measures to defend a spiritual kingdom. I'm not questioning that certain "benefits" have come to us because of war. Yet, I've heard that many in persecution would rather have persecution than the "blessings" experiences in countries like the USA. I am questioning that if God calls Christians to fight in it or has used governments to do it. I think any power of government is controlled by God. Joh 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above... Those are things to think about Eli. It is a complex issue. I think it's odd when some say something like, "If persecution came it would purify us. It would show the real Christians. It may actually be a blessing if we were persecuted because of that." And then they would plan on shooting that "blessing?" That sounds like an internal conflict if someone has that mentality. Does what has been instilled in us as being in "free nations" conflict with what we know is true ie persecution vs fighting persecution? I don't know of any records of the early church using physical force, yet no one could stop the spreading of the Gospel. Is persecution a blessing? I'm just tossing some thoughts our there. Don't devour me as "deceived" or a heretic, please. Josh, We are all brothers here and regardless of what one believes about self defense of the rapture..it has nothing to do with ones salvation. But what do you think of this short article: www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278008,00.html Now is the time to really search our souls about these issues. For one, pre-trib or post-trib the Church is going to find its self facing a more and more hostile world. What are our dies? When we are faced with a war on us. Its a timely question. I maintain we have the right to resist a forced world government. We have time to prepare now.....for what lies in the not to distant future.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 20, 2006 12:38:33 GMT -5
I maintain that it is allowed. Who is forcing it? Is it the government overriding the will of God? The Bible plainly says that a government would have no power except it come from God. So, either you are resisting the power God has granted, or God is commanding you to physically resist the very government power He allowed.
God doesn't put on us anything that we cannot bear.
I didn't see an article on that link this is all it said:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Tuesday, “The day of happiness for the region is near… The world is on the verge of great changes,” according to the Iranian news agency.
Ahmadinejad added that he considered Israel’s operation in Lebanon “a type of playing with fire.” (Dudi Cohen)
I've been thinking about this quote. What do you mean by that? You look around and see what is right and then look to the Word?
If so, I believe we are called to interpret life through the lenses of the Bible, not vice versa. If that is not what you mean, can you explain?
If you are doing that, then that could be why you believe so strongly we should fight. You live in the US, right? In the US, they instill in us that we have a right to bear arms and fight if need be.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 20, 2006 14:28:00 GMT -5
I maintain that it is allowed. Who is forcing it? Is it the government overriding the will of God? The Bible plainly says that a government would have no power except it come from God. So, either you are resisting the power God has granted, or God is commanding you to physically resist the very government power He allowed. God doesn't put on us anything that we cannot bear. I didn't see an article on that link this is all it said: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Tuesday, “The day of happiness for the region is near… The world is on the verge of great changes,” according to the Iranian news agency. Ahmadinejad added that he considered Israel’s operation in Lebanon “a type of playing with fire.” (Dudi Cohen)
I've been thinking about this quote. What do you mean by that? You look around and see what is right and then look to the Word? If so, I believe we are called to interpret life through the lenses of the Bible, not vice versa. If that is not what you mean, can you explain? If you are doing that, then that could be why you believe so strongly we should fight. You live in the US, right? In the US, they instill in us that we have a right to bear arms and fight if need be. As far as my quote. I am stating that you can't use a little bit of scripture to explain a very big concept. You must understand all the ideas of this issue/concept and search scripture and answer various questions and senoeros. I am from the US and I get my thoughts of resistane not from my upbringing but from what I beleive to be true. Things that I have learned from the Bible and life in general. 1) We have the right to resist our own government when it steps outside the constitutuon. 2) We have the right to establish a Christion order. 3) The United Nations is not our elected government. So my question to you is: is it the power of God in our own government that is behing making sodomy and abortion legal? Or course not. But various forms of resistance to that are in order. God doesn't place us in a situation where we would be required to sin. As far as not giving us anything that we can not bear? Well sometimes are very lives are required of us. The article is stating that the the day of peace is a hand. Meaning that they intend on driving Isreal into the sea. In other words there is no peace.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 20, 2006 17:43:04 GMT -5
I don't see in the NT where we have a right to physically resist a government. The Bible didn't teach you to resist the government when it out steps the constitution. The Bible says no where, "If the government tries to overstep it's own laws (without changing them) then you can physically resist it." What do you mean a "Christian Order?" Do you mean something like John Alexander Dowie did with Zion, Illinois? How does the UN effect Christ's teachings? I didn't mean to convey that God forced the government to allow is disallow certain things. Although He can harden/soften the hearts of the leaders. God has allowed the government that power to make a decision. The Bible seems to allude that cities will be judged, and I don't think it is by Christians. Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Various forms of resistance, yes. Physical fighting, no.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 20, 2006 17:51:49 GMT -5
I said this earlier. I want to clarify. I should have said God allows the government that power of choice.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 20, 2006 19:40:41 GMT -5
I don't see in the NT where we have a right to physically resist a government. The Bible didn't teach you to resist the government when it out steps the constitution. The Bible says no where, "If the government tries to overstep it's own laws (without changing them) then you can physically resist it." What do you mean a "Christian Order?" Do you mean something like John Alexander Dowie did with Zion, Illinois? How does the UN effect Christ's teachings? I didn't mean to convey that God forced the government to allow is disallow certain things. Although He can harden/soften the hearts of the leaders. God has allowed the government that power to make a decision. The Bible seems to allude that cities will be judged, and I don't think it is by Christians. Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Various forms of resistance, yes. Physical fighting, no. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters Psalm 106:37,38 A couple of things...any time the government has a law that opposes the Word of God. Christians have an obligation to obey God. It's better to obey God then men. Right?? The UN is going to form a world government. The Chritian order...is a reference to Godly men forming a Christ honering and obeying government. You would think that was right wouldn't you? Don't you think every open air preacher is a resister when they defey the executive brance of government..aka the police? Like Marcavage at west chester. When he was told to leave the public sidewaly and after refusing was arrested, only later to have the charges thrown out. That is resistance.... Also we should be active in our government..voting making Christ honering laws. When someone makes war on us we have the right to self defence. And when we are told to do things that are in opposition to God's Word...like anything that would assist the abortion industry. Say if one was a carpenter. No Christian carpenter should ever do any work for planned parenthood and so on. Don't you think Christians will be judged for not protecting people and not resisting the wicked?
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Post by oap001 on Jul 20, 2006 19:55:32 GMT -5
“Deliver those who are drawn toward death, and hold back those stumbling to the slaughter” (Prov. 24:11-12), and “show her (the bloody city) all her abominations” (Ez. 22:1
Protect them and defend their cause; (Ps. 82:1-4) Speak up for them as they cannot speak for themselves; (Prov. 31:8-9) Seek justice on their behalf; (Isaiah 1:16-17) Exhort mothers and fathers to love their children; (Titus 2:11-15) Call sinners to repentance; (Acts 3:19-21) Warn the wicked: (Ezek. 33:7-11) Expose the works of darkness; and (Eph. 5:8-14) Proclaim God’s Holy Law and Great Salvation; (Gal. 3:19-24)
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