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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 28, 2006 21:14:55 GMT -5
Basic Gospel History and Truth: John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God created man on the sixth day and on the seventh God rested from his works. It is an amazing truth that man's first full day with God was a day of rest. In knowing this we plainly see that God's plan for man was to enter into His rest. A place where we would cease from our own works, and rest in His. A place where righteousness wasn't by works, but by a transaction with the Most High. This transaction is without money and without price yet demands total abandonment of all things. (Gen 1; Hebrews 4:10,11; Gal 2:16; Isa 55:1) Not long after the beginning man corrupted all things. Rather than abiding in communion with God rebellion was chose. This rebellion yielded the entering in of Sin and Death. Now Sin and Death reign over all that are in the world, the only exception being those that are crucified to the world. Sin is a tyrant that has enslaved all humanity because whosoever committeth sin is the servant of Sin. And we all know because it's abundantly clear that all have sinned. (Gen 2; Rom 5:12, 21; John 8:34) Before the Mosaic Covenant Sin was in the world, but without there being a law sins were not imputed. Because of transgressions, the Lord in is manifold wisdom, added the law until the promise should come. The Lord added the law to show men the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Many a man in their arrogance believed they were alive to God with nothing separating them, but when they reached a level of competence they were slain by the law, which bore witness with the conscience, and the corruption was revealed. The purpose of the law is to reveal sin and work wrath. In other words it reveals the guilt that is already there. (Rom 5:13; Gal 3:19; Rom 7:8-13; Rom 2:14,15; Rom 4:15) Now that the promise has come we that have entered into that rest are not under the law. We now have a better covenant. The old has now passed and the new is revealed. The law has no hold on us, and likewise sin doesn't either. The only way to not be under the wrath of the law or the condemnation of sin is to die. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. We must be baptized into Christ's death and walk in newness of life or be baptized into the second death, which is the lake of fire. The choice of all men is to open their arms to wrath and condemnation or turn to the open arms of Jesus the Christ. In Christ the righteousness of the law is fulfilled. The law was perfect and good, but the fault lied with the weakness of man. But thanks be to our God the God-Man came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. He did not come to tear it down but to fulfill all of it. Now our righteousness doesn't come by keeping the law, but by faith in Christ. We must obey the Gospel of repentance that our sins may be remitted. (Heb 8:6; Rom 6; Rev 20:14; Rom 8:3,4; Matt 5:17; Rom 3:28) If a man is free from the law does that mean that we can live in sin? Of course not! You cannot be dead to the law if you are not dead to sin. A Christian must walk in the Spirit that the deeds of the flesh will not be fulfilled. And when that happens the fruit of the Spirit will be revealed and against that there is no law to condemn. As a brother once said, “Christians do not keep the law, they fulfill the law.” And we all know that the fulfilling of the law is love. (Gal 2:19; Gal 5:15, 22-25; Rom 13:10; Gal 5:14; Jam 2:8) Does the law have any purpose? Yes. All those that are not righteousness are under the law. The law is the very thing that leads us to Christ. When we see the law we see the wrath heaped upon us, and then cling to that nail scared hand. (1 Tim 1:8-11; Rom 3:19; Gal 3:24,25)
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 28, 2006 21:16:04 GMT -5
This is some very basic stuff. I just thought I would put it together to see what everyone thought. Comments/questions?
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:24:50 GMT -5
Josh wrote: "Before the Mosaic Covenant Sin was in the world, but without there being a law sins were not imputed."
Oh Really! What did Adam and Eve do?
Gen 3:13-14
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: KJV.
If the LORD gave the serpent a curse and kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, then it was because of sin! Sin started in heaven with Lucifer, and carried itself here to earth.
Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin . KJV
Where there is sin, the LAW exists! Adam and Eve knew not to sin, therefore they knew the LAW.
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 28, 2006 22:29:59 GMT -5
Could you not tell that I was simply quoting the below verse in my own words?
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:30:28 GMT -5
Gen 2:1-3 Josh,
Not only was there the Law but God gave the Forth Commandment to man, right after creation! THere was the Sabbath in the LAW of GOD!
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. KJV.
Then later God said remember the Sabbath! Meaning remember I gave you this law at creation!!!!
Ex 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. KJV
Not only that God has a message to remember His Sabbath in the NT in the last book, in Revelation 14:7, He is here again pointing back to creation! Heavens, earth, sea etc... When GOd created and gave His LAW. THe Sabbath was it!
Revelation 14:7
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. KJV
MAtthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 28, 2006 22:32:28 GMT -5
I'm going to ignore the SDA folk for the most part. If someone sees an objection they would like for me to respond to, please let me know.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:36:47 GMT -5
When does the Bible say we need to worhsip and rest in God's care?
Rev 14:7
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. KJV
Gen 2:1-3 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. KJV
Here is connected 1) Creation 2) worship 3) The LAW. From the beginning of the Bible before sin = Sabbath, after sin=Sabbath and at the very end of time=Sabbath. God has a message of reform! It is to give up the pagan day of the "SUN." For the Seventh DAy Sabbath!!!
Not only that in the New Heaven and the New Earth there will be Sabbath keeping! Before sin=Sabbath and after sin=Sabbath! SOme people are confused on this point! THe BIble is clear!
Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. KJV
Matthew
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:40:23 GMT -5
Isa 55:11
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void , but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. KJV
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Post by apeterson on Dec 28, 2006 22:43:36 GMT -5
Terrific... wonderful article...(sounds kind of like Stephen's last sermon in acts);... thank you Lord...
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:58:00 GMT -5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: KJV
Who said "ye shall not surely die?" Who was that? Who is that serpent? Could that be the DEVIL? Is it the enemy of God and Man?
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: KJV
Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV
The wages of sin is death! SO they knew the LAW! For sin is a transgression of the law!
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. KJV
The law was in Eden!
Matthew
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Post by Miles Lewis on Dec 28, 2006 23:55:15 GMT -5
Very good brother Josh. This is very good, thank you.
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Post by trustandobey on Dec 29, 2006 9:58:07 GMT -5
ONLY BELIEVE,, SAY THEY, AND THE BLESSINGS OF HEAVEN IS YOURS.
THEY ONLY WANT CHEAP GRACE, NO LAW PLEASE, MY WILL BE DONE, NOT YOURS LORD.
they want to deny the authority of the law of God, urging that they are released from obligation to keep the commandments. But is it possible for men to be holy, in accord with the will and character of God, without coming into harmony with the principles which are an expression of His nature and will, and which show what is well pleasing to Him?
THE DESIRE FOR AN EASY RELIGION THAT REQUIRES NO STRIVING, NO SELF-DENIAL, NO DIVORCE FROM THE FOLLIES OF THE WORLD, HAS MADE THE DOCTRINE OF FAITH, AND FAITH ONLY, A POPULAR DOCTRINE.
But what saith the word of God? Says the apostle James: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? and have not works? can faith save him? ... Wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our rather justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou haw faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:14-24
The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is PRESUMPTION; FOR GENUINE FAITH HAS ITS FOUNDATION IN THE PROMISES OF PROVISIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES.
Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements. James 2:10
The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit and separates the soul form God. "Sin is the transgression of the law." And whosoever sinneth (transgresseth the law) hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:6
EVERYONE THAT DOETH EVIL HATETH THE LIGHT, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, LEST HIS DEEDS SHOULD BE REPROVED. JOHN 3:20
THOU SHALT SPEAK MY WORKS UNTO THEM, WHETHER THEY WILL HEAR, OR WHETHER THEY WILL FORBEAR. EZEKIEL 3:7
He who faithfully preaches God's word, thereby condemning their sins, too often incurs their HATRED. Unwilling to endure the pain and sacrifice necessary to reform, they turn upon the Lord's servants and denounce his reproofs, as uncalled for and severe.
Like Korah, they declare that the people are not a fault; it is the reprover that causes all the trouble. And soothing their consciences with this deception, the jealous and disaffected combine to sow discord in the church and weaken the hands of those who would build it up.
THEY HAVE COMMITTED THE SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, A SIN BY WHICH MAN'S HEART IS EFFECTUALLY HARDENED AGAINST THE INFLUENCE OF DIVING GRACE.
Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, said Christ, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him. Matthew 12:32
These words were spoken by our Saviour when the gracious works which He had performed through the power of God were attributed by the Jews to Beelzebub.
IT IS THROUGH THE AGENCY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT GOD COMMUNICATES WITH MAN; AND THOSE WHO DELIBERATELY REJECT THIS AGENCY AS SATANIC, HAVE CUT OFF THE CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THE SOUL AND HEAVEN.
I have never heard so much hate speech by so-called Christians except on this web site, We have simply quoted scripture to explain any and all questions according the the Word Spirit of Jesus Christ ( by His Grace only).
all you have done is accuse us of having a Devil.
PRAISE GOD, THANK YOU, LORD, GREAT IS OUR REWARD IN HEAVEN. FATHER FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, OPEN THEIR EYES TO SEE AND HEAR YOU. In Jesus Name I pray.
TrustandObey
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 29, 2006 11:44:10 GMT -5
TrustAndObey, you have no idea what you are talking about if any of that is directed towards me. I preach obedience to Christ.
I thank God I can have the same testimony as Paul
Gal 2:19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2006 12:12:22 GMT -5
Josh:
In Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Could that have been the period from man's creation until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because verse 12 said by Adam, sin entered into the world, and is sin had entered, so must have the law?
If sin was not imputed until Moses, assuming Moses actually brought the law, men between Adam and Moses would be justified because there was no law. Does that makes sense that God would wipe them out if their sin was not imputed?
Could the eating of the tree have brought the law in that those who know good from evil and do evil, to them it is sin (James 4:17)?
Might that eating of the tree revealed the law written on their hearts and activated the conscience that bears witness?
The understanding of law and grace is a huge issue. God's laws were to protect us, not condemn us. We aren't to have enmity towards them, we are to embrace them, even delight in them (Psalm 1) as they are no longer grievous (1 John 5:3). We are now obey them from the heart (Romans 6:17), because we want to as out outpouring of love back to Jesus (John 14:15) and because we are His friends (John 15:14).
Why do so many try and get rid of the very things that reveal the character and love of God?
The law is a form of grace, because it reveals what pleases and displeases our Lord. If any of you watched "On Night With The King" or read Esther, we see a young lady who rather than looking to self and what she wanted when faced with choosing which jewels to wear for her night with the King (whatever they chose, they got to keep), she asked "What does the King like?'
Do we ask "What does the King like? What would please the King, not me?"
To view the law as merely a temporary thing that was good for condemning is a shallow view of the law. When the word says that the law is good if it is used lawfully, it means that the law should not be used to established your own righteousness apart from Christ. This was the unlawful way the Jews had used it. But, the law is holy, and just, and good; so why do so many professed Christians seem to hate it so?
The KJ in one place I feel is in error is Romans 10:6 which starts off with "But" Strongs #1161, which is a conjunction that is many other times translated "And". In that passage many separate the law and faith, because it it tranlated "But", however, it would appear this may well have been an error and should have been "And" connecting back the law with faith. Faith and Law should be connected, because Jesus connected them when He said "If you love Me, obey my commands". Jesus also said He did not come tro destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
Jesus delivers us from the bondage of sin, and penalty of the law, so we can now obey from the heart, so show we love Him back, not just to keep from being punished for not obeying.
I worry about any Christian that comes against obedience to the law, because I would contend them are still at enmity with God.
That being said, we must never make the same mistake the Jews made, which is to try and keep them for the wrong reason, to no longer be dependant on God's grace and the need for faith.
We should keep the law, but do it out of love; like God demonstrated to us by the Recabite's example in Jeremiah 35.
Should God, as a Father, not expect honor (obedience)? Should God, as Master, not expect fear (reverence)? (Malachi 1:6)
The Old Testamament shows how the relationship was supposed to be, and how the Jews messed it up by doing it for the wrong reasons. Christians seem so intent on not repeating history, we are making as great a mistake in over compensating, that is to eliminate the law all together, or say it only for non-believers, which is not scriptural. Since we are still sinners, the law is still for us too.
If this were not true, we would no longer be convicted of the Holy Spirit when we sin. Do any of you no longer feel convicted when you stumble into a sin? Sadly some say that Satan is the one that tries to make them feel bad, not the Holy Spirit. Would that be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
The key to law and grace is "motive"!!!!!!!!!!
Obey through genuine love towards God and because your are honoring Him with your whole mind, souls, ands strength; and because He is God and worthy to be praised and obeyed.
Then encourage others to do the same.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 29, 2006 15:25:23 GMT -5
Jack, There is a lot to respond to in your post. I will try to hit the main points. I don't believe so. Verse 14 says this "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Paul seems to be talking about the time between Adam and Moses in verse 13. Verse 13 starts with a parentheses. Normally when something is in parentheses it is added to the paragraph but not necessarily directly related. In other words it added information that is helpful, but even if you were to take what is in the parentheses out it would still make sense. (If my grammar understanding is off someone help me.) Paul seems to be adding some information in those verses that are apart of the parentheses to expound something. My point in all that is that what is inside the parentheses is a complete thought, not just a continuation of what is before it. What do these verses mean if the law was not temporary? Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one, but God is one. Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. I think these verses plainly show that the law was added until the promise should come. How can you get around the words 'added' and 'til'? Doesn't that show something temporary? Ex. I am going to add my coat to keep warm til the weather changes. Also it says that the law is a school master, but that after faith came we are not under the schoolmaster. The only verses you mentioned that deals with the Mosiac law was Psalm 1. This is why the SDAs condemn all Sunday worshippers to hell. They can plainly see that if you keep the law you must keep the Sabbath. Indisputably the Sabbath is Saturday. I don't hate it. I'm sorry if you think that I do. Destroy is from the greek word 'kataluo' is means to disolve or render vain. www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=17&strongs=2647&page=Fulfill is from the Greek word 'pleroo' which means to complete or accomplish. www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=17&strongs=4137&page=Jesus did not come to make the law worthless or rip it apart, He come to complete the requirement. He was made under the law so those that are bound under the law could be redeemed. Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. One stayed in the house temporarily until the promised seed came. Then the other was cast out. Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. I'm sorry if you think I am at enmity with God. I hope you don't think that. I hope no one misunderstands me. I am not coming against obedience to Christ or holiness.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 29, 2006 15:26:20 GMT -5
AMEN!
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 29, 2006 15:31:40 GMT -5
I believe when Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they partook of the law.
Brobreaud
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 29, 2006 15:37:30 GMT -5
Why? What verses do you have in mind?
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2006 16:28:04 GMT -5
You said "I hope no one misunderstands me. I am not coming against obedience to Christ or holiness."
I know that is not what you meant. But, how do we know what obedience is, without laws?
In Galatian, the reason the law is no longer a taskmaster, is we no longer need someone to make us obey, we know want to through a changed heart which wants to obey.
The point in the Romans passage is that we are guilty, even when we didn't eat of the tree, like Adam did, but are guilty because we now know good and evil, and therefore are accountable. James 4:17 came into play once we all knew good from evil and chose evil, so the law did in fact come in when they ate from the tree, because the knowledge of good and evil brings in the law to do good. If this isn't so, they were punished for the sins of their father Adam. Since none of us ever lead a person in a prayer for repentance of trhe sin of Adam, becaise our consciences have never been convicted of the Holy Spirit to do so, we must not be guility our Adams sin, but guilty because of the affect that Adam sin had on us, specifically, we now know good and evil making us accountable to chosing evil.
I never said you hated the law, but many you must agree do, and thereby teach the law is done away with so they can turn grace into a license to live how ever they want.
Remember what Jesus taught after He said He didn't come to destroy the law in Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therfore shall break one of the least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdomof heaven: but whosoever do and teach them, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
I therefore keep them and teach others to do so also.
Do you keep them and teach others to do so?
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 29, 2006 16:45:35 GMT -5
Dear brothers, I think in light of this post and the one on Nature/Will it would be in everyones best interest to stop posting thoughts and ideas and see if what we think actualy fits into Romas 6-8. If in Romans 7 Paul is talking pre-conversion then how does that fits with these 2 posts.
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace
This is how we are to be all the time. Alot of brothers talk about obedience to the Law....how about the rest of scripture.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 29, 2006 22:20:01 GMT -5
JAck Jackson,
Wow! Your last post is correct! The Law is the Standard of Eternal Life:
Matthew 19:16-19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. KJV.
Why are so many Christains angry with their LORD! He said to keep the Commandments!
BUT HOW WE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS IS THE ISSUE OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!!!! The How we keep them and by whos power do we do it by! That is the mystery for many well intentioned Christians. THey do not understand! The version of the gospel that says the 10 commandments is done away with is the "bewitched" gospel of Galatians 1:7 and 3:1. The law is holy! It is not done away with!
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. KJV. Romans 7:12-13
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. KJV.
All the LAW does is point out our sin! We need to understand what the standard of righteousness is for "Eternal Life." But in our strength we can not keep the LAW, the LAW is literal yes! But the Spiritual aspect is what we need to look at! Jesus CHrist did not come to destroy the law!
Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. KJV
When does HEAVEN and EARTH pass?
2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. KJV.
The LAW is Eternal, it is spiritual!
Rom 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. KJV.
We NEED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO FOR US WHAT WE CAN NOT DO FOR OURSELVES. The Holy Spirit will write the LAW of God in our minds and heart, He will put the Word in us! THen we will follow the SPirit and will not be led to break the LAW. But before this can happen, we must submit to the authority of God which is the Law of God. THe Ten COmmandments. If you do not acknowledge the Law you will never be led by the Spirit! THe gospel is the goodnews of obedience by the Holy SPirit in us!
Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. KJV
Matthew
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 29, 2006 22:55:52 GMT -5
One of the OT prophecies of what Jesus Christ was to come and do, was to "MAGNIFY" the law. Not just literal, but to spiritual!
Isaiah 42:21
21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. KJV.
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. KJV
Jesus is not a liar! Satan is! Jesus came to make the law honorable! And Satan came to destroy the law, and Satan uses the "man of sin" the LAWLESS one. The Pope, and the Catholic Church to do this. It is the Papacy, that changed the day of worship, not Jesus Christ. The man of sin, the man (POPE) that changed God's law. Change the law= sin! Break the law=sin! THe Pope says they have the authority of God to change the Law of God, and thought to change the Sabbath to Sunday! It is sin, and the Pope is the man of sin. The true gospel is obedience to the Law of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit! The law is not done away with as the Catholic's teach! It is Holy as JESUS CHRIST taught, in almost every sermon of Jesus CHrist, He uplifted the Law of God in one way or another.
2 Thessalonains 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV.
When a man claims to change God's law, and the LAw of God is in the temple! That man makes himself GOD! The law is in the temple, in the ARK of the COVENANT! In the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven!
Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. KJV.
The ark of God's testiment is the Ten Commandments! The standard of salvation! The Law that the Holy Spirit gives us power to obey, by faith! THe power from God, given to us by the Holy Spirit, is called GRACE! It is the Gospel! Grace or Power to obey the transcript of God's character! God is called GOOD in the Bible! The Law is called GOOD in the Bible, God is called Holy, and His Law is called HOLY! It is His character, mercy, longsuffering, faith, joy, patience, brotherly love...etc...
Rom 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. KJV
Matt 19:17
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. KJV.
Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV.
I pray my brethern acknowledge God's law, including the Sabbath, and by the POWER OF GOD's Holy Spirit, is able on His strength, by faith to obey all Ten Commands. We can not keep the Law without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
John 15:5
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.KJV
WHen the Holy Spirit is in us, and we are led by the Spirit we will have good works. The works done are not ours, but God's, as it is the Holy Spirit doing the works through us! We are just the vessels that submit to the inworking of the Holy Spirit on our hearts! Then we can have Ephesians 2:10 fulfilled in us.
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV.
God is the workman! Not us! God does the works in us! THat is called "Christ in us" the HOPE OF GLORY!
Gal 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. KJV
Col 1:27
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: KJV.
This is the "everlasting gospel" of Revelation 14:6!!!! And the result of that gospel is Revelation 14:12!
Matthew
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 29, 2006 22:59:57 GMT -5
Mathew7 said "The Law is the Standard of Eternal Life"
If by "standard" you mean the reasonable response to God's love towards believers, then yes it is reasonable that every true believer who has eternal life (which is having Jesus Christ) should have the desire to do all they can to obey Him.
We must remember though it is Jesus Christ in us, that provides eternal life, not our efforts to keep the commandments alone, and apart from the indwelling of Christ in us.
Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus became the author of eternal salvation (salvation which last forever) to those who obey Him. So we know He is abiding with those who obey Him, providing them with eternal life, which is Himself.
Law and grace work together for the trur follower of Jesus Christ, becauce grace is given where faith is evident and true. Obedience is a sign of true belief, but obedience alone, apart from faith we already saw from the Jews, is not acceptable for God to save them.
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Post by trustandobey on Dec 29, 2006 23:10:26 GMT -5
In the time of Jesus, They wanted the Law, and not the Saviour,
Today, They want the Saviour, but not the Law
A complete flip, but You must have both.
Obedience it the Fruit of Faith.
And in that day seven women (The Church) shall take hold of one man, (Jesus), saying, We will eat our own bread,(Word) and wear our own apparel: (righteousness) only let us be called by thy name,(want to be called Christians), to take away our reproach. Isaiah 4:1
They Think by taking the name of Jesus, without obedience to His ways, they are OK. They are simply playing a Game, how sad.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day. Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? (Christians, though that they were saved) and in thy name have cast out devils? (Christians, though that they were saved) and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Christians, though that they were saved) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:21-23
Presumptuous Faith will only lead to Eternal Death.
Exsample: two Christians what to cross a very busy road, one says God will protect me (I am saved), and darts across. The other Christian, prays: Lord protect me, and lead me across, I put my trust in you.
TrustandObey
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 30, 2006 0:16:10 GMT -5
Trustandobey said: They Think by taking the name of Jesus, without obedience to His ways, they are OK. They are playing a Game, how sad.
That I wholeheartedly agree with. I have an article on my web site ministerwhereyouare.org called "Presumption of Grace" which talks about the many who think they are clothed in fine apparrel which they cannot see (like the Emporers Clothes story), when they are really naked and won't admit to it for pride. This is the Laodicean Church. They think they "Got Jesus", and He is outside knocking.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 30, 2006 2:39:10 GMT -5
WHY WAS JESUS LED INTO THE DESERT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, KJV.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. KJV.
To be tempted of the devil! Next question! Why? Why did Jesus have to be in such a miserable, difficult trial? What was the purpose?
This issue deals with "righteousness by faith" and it is the very foundation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! This issue is of the utmost importance! Let us look at some language in Galatians and see if we can not answer the above questions.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: KJV.
Look at the language of this text! What was the Galatians removed from? Answer: "Grace of Christ." In fact, it states "...called you into the grace of Christ..." So in fact, the gospel here in Galatians 1:6 is termed, or named "grace of Christ." That is the name of the Gospel! The grace of Christ! Next we need to define the word grace, from the Bible and the Bible only. A gentle reminder about the bible explaining itself is 2 Peter 1:20 "... scripture is of any private interpretation." KJV. This is not only for prophecy but for all subjects. We must allow the Bible to explain itself. Now! Lets allow the bible definitions of grace to exposited. 2 Cor 12:9, Acts 4:33, Eph 3:7, are the best definitions, there are other, but these are excellent.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. KJV.
Please note: "My grace" = "for my strength." It is clearly defined by our creator as power! Greace equals power! That is what Jesus Christ had to say! How can there be any discussion on this definition? Now observe the "Hebrew parelleism" the words were in Greek, true! But the writing style was all Hebrew, in fact clasic Hebrew. 2 Cor 12:9 has beautiful chiastic structure, which is found throughout Psalms and other OT books. This verse is classic in its structure! It contains, a statement and then defines itself.
2 Cor 12:9 "...glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." KJV
This is why we need the power of Jesus Christ! TO help our infirmities! Our infirmities are what cause sin to be found in the life! But with Jesus CHrist "in us" by the power of the Holy Spirit we can keep the Law! Our infirmities will be healed!
Ephesians 3:7
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. KJV.
How do we become ministers? BY the effectual working of His power!!!!! His power, not on our power! We must submit to the working of the power of God in our life!
Now! Why was Jesus CHrist led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil? Jesus came as a man! He is still God, but Jesus CHrist did nothing on His own power. He was tempted as a man, and by faith in His Father, and by faith only, Jesus Christ overcame, by the Power of God. Jesus CHrist did not use His own power as God, but by faith received grace to overcome the most severe temptation ever! Jesus overcame the temptations of the devil by faith, receiving grace!
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV.
Not of works! It means not our works! It is not our power, therefore it is not our works. It is the works that God does through us, by the power of grace! THAT IS THE GOSPEL!!! That is the only gospel. The gospel of grace, Galatians 1:6. The grace is for us to be able to obey the Ten COmmandment Law of God! Any other gospel that does not include the Law of God is an abomination! It is a deception!
Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne. KJV.
Romans 1:17
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. KJV.
Faith gives us access to the grace of God, just like Jesus did, we can do! It is the only way! The straight and narrow path! So we see that Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted, so that Jesus could beat Satan on his own ground, and now offer us His grace, for us to beat Satan. But not our power, rather, the power of the Holy Spirit! By faith we can remove all the mountains of sin in our life. Why? Because it is God's will for us to be seperated from sin. 1 Thess 4:3. And it will be God's power doing the removal of sin! THerefore, faith without works is dead! But it must be the "Works of God" in us!
Matthew
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 30, 2006 12:48:05 GMT -5
I know that is not what you meant. But, how do we know what obedience is, without laws? There is "a law to Christ" but it is not in the same fashion. I'll explain below. 1Cr 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. What is in bold is the very key, I believe it is the primary difference between the two covenants. The Mosaic Covenant was imposed from the outside, the New Covenant emanates from the inside. The "laws" are not on outward stone tablets, but written on the inwards. So, there are "laws" in a sense. Maybe it could be put there is a standard that shows if one is converted. The new birth is what births us into the Kingdom Of God. In this new birth we have a new nature. This new nature includes a new heart, in which the 'laws" of our God are implanted. Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: But even in this we are not to be ministers of the letter, that ministration of death, but of the spirit, that ministration of the Spirit. Why? Because the ministration of death is passed away. 2 Cor 3 deals with this. 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Even looking at what happened at MT Sinai and what happens in the new birth we can see some things. At Sinai there were outward thunderings, 2 stone tablets given, and the law audibly spoken. In Mt Zion (New Cov) there are inward quakings, a new heart of flesh, and a voice within. At Sinai if you touched(defiled) the mount you would be killed. In Zion if you defile the inward temple God will destroy you (1Cor 3:16,17 & Hebrews 12:18-22) I agree with this. There was sin between Adam and Moses. Adam didn't have a written law, but he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin. Is the knowledge of good and evil the same as "the law" in scripture? (This is not a trick question- I'm not sure at the moment) All I know is that Romans 5:13 is talking about the time between Adam and Moses. I know there was sin during that time and they were judged. Here are a few things that would help if we can clear up. Maybe you can help me. I don't know the answer. Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;What's the difference? I don't keep the Sinai law. I fulfill the law by living in love, which comes by the new birth. I preach that men must be born again. In a way, the law is "kept" but I think better termed "fulfilled."
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Post by jackjackson on Dec 30, 2006 16:15:01 GMT -5
I certainly believe that knowing the difference between good and evil, most certainly is the law of God. This is what God is saying in Duet 30 and also in Ezk 3, 18, and 33.
Knowing good and evil, and doing the evil anyway is sin. This is why the even the Gentiles bore witness of the law written in their heart.
I believe not one of the 10 Commandments surprised a single Jew. It wasn't like "Wow, we can no longer lie or steal....... I think God was just writting outwardly what they might have tried to ignore inwardly.
Its why I use the 10 Commandments as a mirror, like many of us learned from Way of the Master. We see the law and conscience bearing witness in those we speak to, proving that they are under the law, even before they see who wrote it out later with His finger in stone.
This is why the world has laws, even when they don't give credit to God for His absolutes which all men know are right.
In this I believe God was saying when He wrote them on stone "I am the author of that law you know you all are under" In this way, we can know better who we offended and therefore know who to run to and apologize.
Josh I have witnessed to many who never really knew who they were feeling guilty to. Once they saw God was displeased and they had offended Him, they repented. Even more, when they understood how Jesus had already suffered and died in their place, it brings that godly sorrow as well.
The Old Testament taught us to train up our children. If I tried to just teach my kids to love God and their neighbors, without helping them understand what that means by telling them not to steal, not to covet, not to look with lust...... they have a hard time understanding. Do you have children? Believe me, when you start teaching little ones, you need very specific rules, and punishments for not obeying. These are what God commands us to do as parents. Don't you think He also knows that it prepares them for a relationship with their heavenly Father as well?
You have more data, so you can say "I'll fulfill the law by living in love" I preach men must be born again, but realize they need to know what that is, and why they need it to happen. So I teach what is sin, the transgression of the law (and use the 10 Commandments). If I just taught 2 sins, not loving God and not loving neighbors, many might say "Hey, I do love God and my neighbor. Unless I then take it to "have you lied, stolen....." they will not understand.
The fact we have the 10 Commandments to use to show them they needs is therefore a type of grace, because God loved us enough to lay out what He likes and what is an abomination, then says "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to posesses it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life that both thou and thy seed may live: that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest cleave unto him; for he is thy life....Duet 30:15-20a.
He that hath the Son (and cleaves to Him) has the life......We still have choice, and note that in verse 15 "life and good" are compared to "death and evil".
At the tree, we all gained the knowledge of good and evil (life and death).
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 30, 2006 16:59:38 GMT -5
My original post...
Does the law have any purpose? Yes. All those that are not righteousness are under the law. The law is the very thing that leads us to Christ. When we see the law we see the wrath heaped upon us, and then cling to that nail scared hand. (1 Tim 1:8-11; Rom 3:19; Gal 3:24,25)
Do you preach men should keep Saturday holy?
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 31, 2006 7:47:47 GMT -5
Josh,
Of course we should keep Sabbath or Saturday holy. It is one of the Ten Commandments! The law shows us our sin! We then "cling to the nail pierced" hands to give us forgivness. But it goes one step further. We now need "POWER" to never do the sin again. That is where grace come in! Mercy is unmerited forgivness, from the cross. BUt grace, is the power of God to "keep us from falling." To present us faultless!
Jude 24
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, KJV.
In the New Earth we will be keeping the Sabbath! Isaiah 66:22,23. The Sabbath was given before MAN sinned, and thousands of years before a JEW even existed! It is the eternal reminder of the creator! That is why the Antichrist, Roman Catholic CHurch changed the day. Sabbath is the sign of God's creative and redemptive power. Satan can not use this day as his sign, because it points to the creator. So the devil used his church (CAtholic) to change the day. Sunday is the "Mark" of authority of the Catholic Church! Satan gave this Church his power and seat and authority to deceive the world!
Revelation 13:2
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. KJV.
The Jews had the LAW and rejected Jesus. The Christians have Christ and reject the LAW. Both are wrong! We need the Law of God and Jesus Christ to give us the Holy Spirit so that we can obey it! Look at Bible prophecy, and how God told us the Law would be changed by the Antichrist!
Daniel 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. KJV.
The time we meet with God has not been changed by God, but by man! God has warned us! We need to understand the Law is what Satan hates, and is why he got kicked out of heaven! Now he (deceiver) is destroying millions, upon millions, because they follow the Catholic CHurch (Satan's Church). It is terrible! The authority of God is in His law, it can not be changed!
Mal 3:6
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. KJV
Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. KJV
Matthew
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