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Post by Josh Parsley on Nov 5, 2006 20:50:03 GMT -5
'Dr. Dino,' wife guilty Nicole Lozare nlozare@pnj.com Jury deliberations took about three hours. A federal jury has convicted Kent Hovind and his wife, Jo, of tax fraud. Hovind faces a maximum of 288 years in prison. His wife faces up to 225 years. Her charges include aiding and abetting her husband with 44 counts of evading bank-reporting requirements. In closing arguments this morning, Alan Richey, Kent Hovind’s defense attorney, said the Pensacola evangelist was never notified by the IRS that he was violating a specific law by not withholding and paying employment taxes on workers at the Dinosaur Adventure Land and Creative Science Evangelism, both of which he founded and operates. Hovind also believes that as workers of God, he and all employees of the theme park and his ministry are exempt from paying taxes. Assistant U.S. Attorney Michelle Heldmyer said the case was not about religion but about paying taxes. In her closing argument, she said that Kent Hovind was advised and told numerous times by the court, an attorney and even a member of the Pensacola Christian College that he must pay taxes. Kent Hovind is charged with 58 federal counts, including failure to pay $845,000 in employee-related taxes and withholdings. If found guilty, he faces a maximum of 288 years in prison. His wife, Jo Hovind, faces up to 225 years. Her charges include aiding and abetting her husband with 44 counts of evading bank-reporting requirements. Defense lawyers for the Hovinds rested their case on Wednesday without presenting evidence or calling witnesses. www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/NEWS01/611020330/1006
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Post by tbxi on Nov 5, 2006 22:05:48 GMT -5
WOW. That is insane.
I wouldn't be surprised if they really hit him with the book. A lot of people are not very fond of Kent Hovind.
I was never crazy about his "creation science evangelism" stuff myself... and my opinion went way down when I heard about his "I'm an employee of God, so I don't have to pay taxes" shtick after he got indicted for tax evasion.
I don't know where I stand between YEC and OEC, but from what I read of his stuff, it was the bottom of the barrel for YEC arguments... I mean, there are some decent arguments for it - I don't disagree with EVERYTHING Answers in Genesis has to say, but then there are really bad ones like the "rings of Saturn", "Mt. St. Helens" and "moon dust" ideas... *sigh* And on top of that he has this nice habit of calling people who accept evolution "stupid". Real nice.
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 22:40:43 GMT -5
I was never crazy about his "creation science evangelism" stuff myself... I don't know where I stand between YEC and OEC, but from what I read of his stuff, it was the bottom of the barrel for YEC arguments... I mean, there are some decent arguments for it - I don't disagree with EVERYTHING Answers in Genesis has to say, but then there are really bad ones like the "rings of Saturn", "Mt. St. Helens" and "moon dust" ideas... *sigh* Please tell me you aren't being for real?
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Post by tbxi on Nov 5, 2006 22:43:47 GMT -5
I am for real.
AiG is pretty good. I was never into Kent Hovind's stuff though.
Or are you talking about YEC and OEC?
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 23:06:03 GMT -5
Or are you talking about YEC and OEC? This is what I am talking about...have you looked into this deeply?
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Post by tbxi on Nov 5, 2006 23:11:16 GMT -5
I have looked into it somewhat. I am not convinced firmly of either position right now, and the issue has not been a priority for a while (it's a very deep issue and I want to give it the justice it deserves once I get some good books to read about it). I ordered a book called the Genesis debate - it arrived yesterday and is in the apt. office, I will pick it up and start reading it tomorrow - in it, defenses are laid out for the three main creationist theories, YEC, day-age OEC, and the framework hypothesis.
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 23:18:41 GMT -5
Before you start reading that book...do you really think Scripture can account for an "Old Earth"? I mean are you talking about Gap Theory or what?
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Post by tbxi on Nov 5, 2006 23:24:21 GMT -5
Nah, I'm not talking about the gap theory. I think that's kind of weak, honestly.
And, I think it might. Again, I haven't looked into this THAT deeply, either on a scientific or exegetical basis. The only prep I would have for understanding the science parts of it are my high school education and my almost-finished math degree (so for example, I understand how radiometric dating is said to work, as it comes from the study of differential equations).
If you want to talk about this further, in terms of the bible... you can start a thread in the doctrine section. I probably won't participate much in these discussions until I've come to lean towards a particular theory, though.
A general philosophy of mine is, what God's word says cannot contradict clear and unarguable observations of nature - since nature is His creation they must go hand in hand. So in general I think it's important to be very careful with this topic and put a good amount of study into it (which I haven't yet done, in my own judgment).
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 23:29:09 GMT -5
If you want to talk about this further, in terms of the bible... you can start a thread in the doctrine section. I probably won't participate much in these discussions until I've come to lean towards a particular theory, though. I'm not going to bother starting a new thread, because you are probably the only Christian on this board who doesn't believe in Young Earth...
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Post by cervyy on Nov 6, 2006 2:52:59 GMT -5
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
If NOTHING else convinced me of converting, then surely that one of te "Christians'" greatest weapons going to jail for tax fraud will.
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Post by tonyholland on Nov 6, 2006 11:41:54 GMT -5
Sadly, it looks like he may belong in Jail. I like his Creation science stuff (young earther here ) but every other ministry has to either pay taxes or do everything that goes with being non-taxable. I'm not sure why he feels that he is a exception. Yeah, the "I'm a employee of God" and "the money is God's money, not mine" arguments were pretty lame.
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Post by mahatma on Nov 6, 2006 12:28:16 GMT -5
If he were only arguing it for a church and its employees it would be shady, and he would be guilty of negligence by dint of not having gotten professional advice on how to deal with taxes, but it might be kind of sort of understandable why he might have thought that was the case. But since this is for employees of a -theme park- it's just nuts. Completely nuts.
Not a good week for christian "leadership" out there.
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Post by victorialewis on Nov 6, 2006 18:28:57 GMT -5
YEC vs OEC When I was a very new believer, I can to a junction in the road of my Christian walk. I was in the Word, and understanding it like I never had in my life. As I was going through Genesis a second time, it really hit me what God was saying. He did it in six, 24 hour days. (Yom = 24 hrs) I wrestled with it, like Jacob and the angel. Finally, I came to this conclusion. Lord, I would rather have You correct me on the Day of Judgment that You meant something else (than a literal meaning) than to have You ask me, "Why did you not take Me at My Word?" When I did begin to look into Creation Science, I quickly realized that it made perfect sense, and also learned one other thing: All good science is backed up by Scripture. (meaning science well done, not morally good ) In fact, God's Word tells much about what we NOW know about science that was not widely known when it was written down. Living Waters has a great tract on Science Facts in the Bible. We learned some great stuff while homeschooling, too. Tbxi, you should check out Ken Ham. We saw him at a homeschool convention, and the basis for his speech was that not taking God at His Word has brought us to the state we are today with regard to abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research, rampant immorality, a weak and dying church (I'm not talking about the remnant or body of committed believers)....etc. When we play fast and loose with His Holy Word, when we look at it like a Chinese menu from which we pick and choose what we will believe and obey....we are doing the devil's work, and headed for real trouble.
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Post by mahatma on Nov 6, 2006 20:22:29 GMT -5
Victoria, That's an interesting statement. Could you give me some examples of what you mean, maybe in the Computer Science field? I don't mean this at all as mockery (though of course I reserve the right to disagree with you depending on what you respond with) but am honestly curious what the Bible has to say about my field of study
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Post by tbxi on Nov 6, 2006 22:08:09 GMT -5
Mahatma, I think what she means is more of a "Real science is not in contradiction with God's Word" statement. The bible says nothing concerning computer science or any kind of substantial mathematics, as far as I'm aware, but I see no reason why any Christian would reject these things.
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Post by jackjackson on Nov 7, 2006 0:08:13 GMT -5
Mahatma:
I will answer a few good scince things from the Bible. First you should know I am not only and Evangelist, I am the founder and President of and Environmental Consulting firm called Property Profiles, graduated with a science degree from University of Maryland and am also a Certified Hazardous Materials Manager (CHMM) at a Masters Level and am one of only a handful of Fellows of the Institute of Hazrdous Materials Management (IHMM). I am also a Trustee and scientist for Safe Wateways in Maryland (SWIM) and have been published in Scientific America and an Engineering magazine.
The Bible describes the hydrologic cycle, before anyone knew how water cycled itself. The Bible said the earth was a sphere while most thought the eart was flat. The Bible described ocean currents and wind current, which were later found. The man who discovered the ocean currents looked for there existance, strictly because he found them discussed in the Bible.
During the black plague, many thought the Jews were to blame, because they were not getting it. only later did they find that by following the Bibles laws of "clean and unclean" did they protect themselves from the disease. When mortality for women in child birth was so high in early hospitals it was amn who read the Bible who tried running water, not hand bowls to eliminate the carry of microorganisms that they didn't even know existed before then. It was a man who saw that the "life was in the blood" that made the claim that blood letting was actually killing people.
All these items are amazing to me as I studied them.
As far as young age earth, I was a product of public school teaching about evolution. It was taught as truth, never with alternative evidence which opposed it. When I gave my life to the Lord in March 2001, I started to read the Bible and knew I had a problem. the Bible said 6 days. I thought at first I would just accept that each day could be a period of time, maybe millions or billions of years. One huge problem: if the plants were created on the third day, how long could they live without the sun which was created on the fourth day? Also it says the moon was created the fourth day, and if the big bang happened at one time, how could more stuff be created after that had occurred? Where there 2 bangs?
I started researching and asking questions regarding calibration methods, and looked at reliability of dating methods for rocks. I found serious problems with radiologic data testing because different methods, run on same formations of rocks had data that could differ almost a billion years between test methods. I also saw flaws with textbook data regarding the so called evolutionary tract of ape to men. The ability to emulsify bone which was fairly recent allows DNA testing on bone which was not able to be done before. Nebraska Man's tooth was found to be a pigs tooth; Lucy was no lady, but ape like; except the knee cap which was not from her but a man. It seems they discovers knew that without a knee cap, they could not claim she walked upright. The knee cap was found 3 miles away, but they just assumed it belonged to her. I guess when the grant money to find missing links was almost up, and one did not want to be without a job, they stretched the truth a bit.
tbxi is correct, when he says that science (provable observational science) does not contradict anything in the Bible. It is only when men make assumptions based on observable science (called historical science) that we have people claim things suggest contradictions exist.
Anyway I love this science stuff as a scientist and can answer questions off-line if your realy are interested.
Jack
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 7, 2006 8:21:41 GMT -5
Brothers, but my father-in-law and I were looking at all of the facts last night and I can only conclude that Hovind is going to go to jail. At first I thought that this was a matter of the law unfairly doing this to Hovind. I thought that it might have been a matter of interpretation of the law. Now I believe it was just Hovind thinking he is a special case that doesn't ever need to pay anything to the government no matter what. Unless they have mercy on him, I believe he is going to jail for the rest of his life. I don't think it could be concluded any other way. I just don't see how Hovind could just skip over the Scriptures that talk about rendering to caesar what is caesar's and Romans 13. If you look at the path this situation has taken, I believe he was given many chances to repent too. This is so unfortunate, because I have been so blessed by his ministry. I hope he sees the error of his ways and that his son will continue this ministry on in a Godly fashion in relation to the government.
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Post by tonyholland on Nov 7, 2006 9:50:40 GMT -5
Agreed. Normally, something like this would land a person approx 4-5 years in jail, but Mr. Hovind has been so hostile towards the law that it is possible that the judge will make a example out of him.
I certainly hope not, and also hope that he admits his wrong during sentancing and is shown mercy by the court.
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Post by mahatma on Nov 7, 2006 15:02:42 GMT -5
Tbxi, Fair enough. "Backed up by" and "not contradicted by" are pretty different, but I guess I can accept that. If anyone does know of computer science/math stuff there in the Bible though I would still be interested to hear it.
Jack, I'm aware of your scientific background. Do you remember when we were debating evolution and I did some research on you and questioned you regarding what I view to be inconsistencies between your profession and a letter you wrote to a preacher who holds a stance you disagree with on the Kyoto Protocol?
I also remember that you have several problems with evolutionary science, just as I have many problems with your creation science. If I remember correctly we let that thread die, but you admitted before-hand that you could not disprove evolution? I seem to remember some discussion of a book that included "thousands of facts that disprove evolution", but niether of us had read it and when it came down to brass tacks, all we each had was our opinion, does that sound right?
(and I love this science stuff too, as much as I love the philosophy...I always enjoy jawing about them, since it gives me a great opportunity to see new viewpoints and learn new things)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 7, 2006 15:03:42 GMT -5
This whole thing is just terrible.
Kent Hovind built up such a great ministry. Had such great material. Had such a large influence. Even built a childrens dinosaur park. And now, it's basicly all flushed down the drain because he didn't pay taxes! It's so grevious!
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Post by mahatma on Nov 7, 2006 15:06:32 GMT -5
This whole thing is just terrible. Kent Hovind built up such a great ministry. Had such great material. Had such a large influence. Even built a childrens dinosaur park. And now, it's basicly all flushed down the drain because he didn't pay taxes! It's so grevious! Jesse, Do you attribute this to the government being unreasonable, or to some sort of arrogance/hubris on the part of the preacher involved, or some other cause?
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Post by tbxi on Nov 7, 2006 15:10:00 GMT -5
Tbxi, Fair enough. "Backed up by" and "not contradicted by" are pretty different, but I guess I can accept that. If anyone does know of computer science/math stuff there in the Bible though I would still be interested to hear it. I was just trying to elaborate a little on what she probably meant. I may not share all of victorialewis' views. The only math stuff I know of in the bible is when a very rough approximation for the value of pi is [implicitly] given... 3. This is sometimes touted as an "error" by skeptics, although even secular mathematicians know it is not an error, as the (very) roughly circular object under consideration was quite large, made of brass, and hence... not bound to give a good value for pi by measurement. People just look at the measurements of the elliptical object, and use its diameter and circumference to get "the bible's value of pi" and show that it's wrong. You may have heard of this before. You could get a more accurate value by cutting a circle out of particle board, measuring its circumference and dividing by the diameter, haha... at least it wouldn't be an integer.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 7, 2006 15:14:03 GMT -5
I think it's Kent Hovinds fault.
He did so much. And if he just paid his taxes, he would be able to continue his ministry.
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Post by mahatma on Nov 7, 2006 15:23:14 GMT -5
Tbxi, I hadn't heard of it before, but it is interesting. For my money if the item in question was created by mortal craftsmen in the BC era, the odds of it being a perfect circle would be pretty darn low. I can't imagine I personally would try to tout a lopsided and poorly crafted piece of brass as great proof against the veracity of the Bible Jesse, It's really frustrating when people we admire make what seem like dumb, simple mistakes. One more example of the wisdom of "render unto Caesar..." I suppose.
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Post by jackjackson on Nov 7, 2006 18:53:25 GMT -5
Kent Horvind took an Acts approach to making the funding available for "needs", which he saw not as a salary. They collected moneys as donations to a ministry, and he believed they were exempt.
I do not see him as "snubbing his nose at taxes", nor was there deceit here. He didn't hid the fact he felt he was correct. This is not the same as reporting too much to get a tax break you really didn't earn.
In that, I would hope it is not the same as fraud, which is a deliberate trying to pull the wool over the IRS's eyes.
We will see how it turns out. It could be they will just make him pay back taxes.
If they require him too, he must render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars.
He claims he personally owns nothing, it is all owned by God.
This should be interesting.
Jack
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Post by tonyholland on Nov 7, 2006 21:20:05 GMT -5
I think the reason that he is in this situation is that he was told repeatedly to pay back taxes. Along with the employee tax issue, it looks like he had either never or recently had not filed personal tax returns which is a crime. I agree that everything we have is owned by God.....and God told us to pay our taxes.
I really hope he doesn't wind up in jail for a extended period of time, but some punishment is merited here. Many ministries and Churches spend countless hours ensuring they are in compliance with the IRS. I would think that Mr. Hovind would have considered the example of his fellow Church and ministry leaders, rather than deciding that he held some special status that put him above all of this.
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 7, 2006 22:04:44 GMT -5
I think the reason that he is in this situation is that he was told repeatedly to pay back taxes. Along with the employee tax issue, it looks like he had either never or recently had not filed personal tax returns which is a crime. I agree that everything we have is owned by God.....and God told us to pay our taxes. I really hope he doesn't wind up in jail for a extended period of time, but some punishment is merited here. Many ministries and Churches spend countless hours ensuring they are in compliance with the IRS. I would think that Mr. Hovind would have considered the example of his fellow Church and ministry leaders, rather than deciding that he held some special status that put him above all of this. Amen Tony...
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 10, 2006 11:33:37 GMT -5
I think it's Kent Hovinds fault. He did so much. And if he just paid his taxes, he would be able to continue his ministry. He also kicked the lights out of his secretary in 2002 (not to mention is burglary charges etc etc) Martinez, Greg. "A Journey to Hovind's Dinosaur Adventure Land" Skeptical Inquirer, November 2004. 205.152.130.14/cv_web_1b.asp?ucase_id=12619523
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Post by joechristopherson on Nov 11, 2006 7:43:12 GMT -5
I have just a few questions about taxes and this situation I guess. I know Jesus said render unto caesar the things that are caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. But did you know that there are no laws that require us to pay income tax let alone churches that are tax exempt even without becoming a 501c3 corporation. So would what Jesus said apply were there is no law that says we must pay taxes.
Thanks, Joe
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Post by joechristopherson on Nov 11, 2006 8:33:26 GMT -5
Go to Google video and watch from freedom to Fascism
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