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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 11:41:02 GMT -5
P.S I work a regular fulltime job and one of the people that I deal with regularly in a homosexual, another brother works for a large local company and some homosexuals and even transsexuals work for him. Should he and I tell them God hates them all! In the same fashion?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 11:45:56 GMT -5
All of that is true. I can't biblically disagree with any of that. While I'm not the biggest fan of the word "homo" its still better then calling them "gay". I myself typically just use "homosexual" and "sodomite" as found in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The only thing I really don't like is the sign with the two men. It's too graphic for me. But I'm glad that there is someone, Ruben, who goes to the homosexual parades and Mardi Gras, to publicly confront the sin of these sodomites and revelers, calling them to come to Jesus for salvation and deliverance. And I do praise God for the homosexuals that I know of which have come to Christ and given up their vile wickedness through the ministry of Rueben. He's not a very polished or refined preacher. But I know that God has certainly used him to save sinners, and also to raise up MANY other street preachers. He sometimes reminds me of the Old Testament prophets, like Elijah. He once went to the Mormon conference and walked around the streets with the book of mormon, which he drilled a hole threw and tied a rope with. So he dragged the book of mormon through the streets, as he exposed the wickedness and abominableness of the false religion. But Rueben says that when God tells you to do something, you just do it. Another time he went to the Hindu conference dressed up as a cow. He certainly got a lot of attention and was able to preach to alot of hindus. This is a video I took of Rueben at the Georgia open air conference: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGHWdQYbSNUHere you can see Rueben telling sinners the truth about themselves, that God is angry with them and abhors them because of their sin, but also you can hear him telling them about the hope and salvation which is found only in Jesus Christ.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 11:51:00 GMT -5
Jesse are you saying that a man who says that hope is only in Jesus has a licence to say whatever he want before hand? Sometimes with the excuse God told me to?
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 28, 2006 11:51:57 GMT -5
This is For Bullhorn or anyone that supports Reuben....I'm sitting here at my desk after going to his website and I,m greatly grieved. Almost to the point of tears over his website. I have absolutely no issue with street preaching or the use of Gods word (especially the Law) to proclaim the truth of the gospel. However Bob if you think that because someone go out "preaching" for 25 years and spends time in "prayer" and spends lots of"$$" this gives them the right or authority to say and do whatever they "think" in the name of evangelism. I won't say he isn't a brother in Christ but in 18 years of following the King of Kings this is truly sad to my spirit. Perhaps he and others are not always angry or mean spirited, but some correction from some godly men looks to be in order. However if someone doesn't agree with all he does they will be labeled as neo-Christians. I'm certainly in agreement that many have soft peddled the Gospel, but degrading your brothers in Christ is wrong. Many more thought are in my mind, for now I will just pray for God to bring some Spiritual men alongside of Reuben. I started a prayer thread for Ruben... rather than only expose the man, I thought it also best to pray for him and his supporters. Mysteriously, the prayer thread is gone; deleted. Unfortunately, we can;t come together to pray for Ruben nor his supporters. May God move mightily in Ruben's life and ministry, as well as Jesse's and BullhornBob's! God is God and if He's been patient with me, I know His patience is something to be desired for these named men. God bless.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 11:54:09 GMT -5
I never said Rueben has a lisence to say whatever he wanted to say. But I do believe he has a lisence to say whatever the bible says.
The following is what some say is unbiblical. But I do not find anything biblically wrong with it:
Is this what you do not think Rueben should have a "lisence" to say?
To say that God does not abhor sinners is ignorance of the bible.
To say that God does not hate homo-sex is a slander on His character.
And to say that homosexuality is not the shame of this country, is ignorance of the times in which we live.
So long as your life and heart is right, you can preach the bible.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 11:58:28 GMT -5
What does our country have to do with the gospel? Why say God abhors Homo sex? Why not talk about all their other sin as well and let the Holy Spirit do the work? I,m sure you believe the Spirit is capable.
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 28, 2006 12:00:20 GMT -5
I never said Rueben has a lisence to say whatever he wanted to say. But I do believe he has a lisence to say whatever the bible says. The following is what some say is unbiblical. But I do not find anything biblically wrong with it: Is this what you do not think Rueben should have a "lisence" to say? To say that God does not abhor sinners is ignorance of the bible. To say that God does not hate homo-sex is a slander on His character. And to say that homosexuality is not the shame of this country, is ignorance of the times in which we live. So long as your life and heart is right, you can preach the bible. Jesse, saying, "God loves you/God abhors you" can be done in a manner which is blasphemous. When Robert Shuller says, "God loves you!" we know he's being blasphemous because of his theology of "God just loves you all! All is OK!" The words mean nothing; the spirit in which the words are spoken mean everything. One glimpse at Ruby's site is enough to see, Jesse, from this thread alone, that the Brethren see what you're denying.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 12:00:59 GMT -5
P.S I don't propose to know it all! Just wanting us brothers as you commented to me to check our hearts and motives when we preach
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 12:03:48 GMT -5
Yes, our motives and heart must be right.
But our message must be biblical too!!
It's true that God abhors sinners. It's true that God hates sin. It's true that God punishes Nations and not only individuals.
Talk about their other sin. But if you ignore their most prevelant sin, you are not being relevent to the times. What if they repent of all their other sin, but not the one sin that you failed to call them to repent from?
My policy is that, if it's a sin, preach against it. And whatever their most prevelent sin is, focus on that until they give it up.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 12:11:40 GMT -5
Jesse, like I said biblical preaching isn't a problem. But to stick to as you say just their prevelant sin, is not giving the full word of God
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Post by eric on Nov 28, 2006 12:13:08 GMT -5
How did we get to talking about Reuben on a thread about Hovind?
We already beat the "Reuben controversary" to death on other threads.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 12:13:50 GMT -5
What do you guys think about George Whitefield, who would tell sinners that God abhors them, and would name call by calling people "drunkards" and "harlots" and "liars"?? He would tell people, just like Charles Spurgeon, "turn or burn".
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 12:30:37 GMT -5
All of the messages are great, but don't you see a difference in the language? Sense a difference in their spirit?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 12:36:03 GMT -5
I do not see a difference in the language between:
"God abhors you"
and
"consider how abominable you are to God"
If I said, Rueben told a sinner, "consider how abominable you are" many would say, "Rueben is an abomination!"
But if I said, it was George Whitefield that said, "consider how abominable you are" people say, "he was a hero of the faith". Though he had more critics in his life then Rueben probably ever will.
If I said Rueben said, "God abhors you" people say "Rueben is a false teacher."
But if I said Jonathon Edwards said in his sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, "God abhors you", people say "He was a bold man of God". Yet Jonathon Edwards was voted out of the very church he told about God's abhorrance.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 12:36:21 GMT -5
I was still hoping for a response to this question.
P.S I work a regular fulltime job and one of the people that I deal with regularly in a homosexual, another brother works for a large local company and some homosexuals and even transsexuals work for him. Should he and I tell them God hates them all! In the same fashion?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 12:39:09 GMT -5
Working with someone and going to a parade to preach to crowds are different. But non the less, you must tell them how God abhors them because of their sin. (saying God abhors and saying God hates are different. To say God abhors means God does not delight in, to say that God hates means God does not love).
So whether at a parade or at work, the message remains the same. The motive remains the same. But for very obvious reasons, the manner changes. You can open air preach with a sandwhich board at a parade, but wear a sandwhich board to work and try open air preaching there, you may lack some wisdom.
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Post by mahatma on Nov 28, 2006 13:01:36 GMT -5
Do you take the time to explain that difference while preaching to the crowd? I certainly don't mean to suggest that saying it isn't within your rights, but the average person certainly does not make that distinction with the word "abhor" and if you aren't very clear about it when preaching then people are most likely going to respond as if you had said "God Hates You"
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 28, 2006 13:39:06 GMT -5
You see, no matter what questions you ask, no matter what Scriptures are used, no matter what concern is spoken, the response has always been a rebuttal and a defense of wicked men and their wicked practices.
Allegiance to man's ways and man's methods and man's message seems to be the order of the day.
When we as Believers must resort to defending wicked methods and when we as Believers must defend that which God Himself in Scripture condemns, the cry for Revival must become louder and more prevalent in our assemblies and homes!
When sinners are being turned into twice the sons of hell due to the methods of men who left the Evangelical Way long ago, the Church must, corporately, rise against such methods and men whose methods cause only a deeper hatred for the Son of God!
The Slain Lamb who was pierced for the sins of all men is being reproached among the Heathen because of such methods of abomination!
The Son of God who was sent out of Love from the God who hates sin is now being cut asunder by the methods of men who have been rejected by the Evangelical Community and who are now being accepted by the lone rangers of the Body of Christ as leaders in their own right!
The Lord is being blasphemed by men who twist the truth and cause dissention and factions among the Brethren due to their rebellion against the God of Scripture and His commands as relating to leading dead sinners into the Truth of the Gospel!
You see, I've said it once before and again I'll say it:
God does not save those whom He hates; He saves those who hate HIM.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 14:05:47 GMT -5
I have never heard Rueben preach anything that wasn't biblical.
He is reproached by many because his message is a biblical representation of God, and a biblical representation of a sinner.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 15:39:08 GMT -5
Is sarcasm a sin?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 28, 2006 15:45:17 GMT -5
Elijah used satire as a form of rebuke.
1Ki 18:27 - "And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked."
Jesus Christ also used satire as a form of rebuke, "whitewashed tombs".
I always enjoy satirical writings. John Fletcher, in his methodist classic, "Checks to Antinomians" where he wrote personal letters to ministers who attacked John Wesley and called him a heretic, used a great deal of wit and satire to make his point.
I think satire can be used as a very effective form of rebuke, as well as a very effective way to make a point abundantly clear.
Douglas Wilson has a great book on biblical satire called, "The Serrated Edge". I recommend it.
Satire is good, if one uses it good.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 15:58:09 GMT -5
"Humility is the secret of fellowship, and pride the secret of division."
R C Chapman
I,m close friends with a dear brother who works for Doug Wilsons father here in Logan Utah
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:01:47 GMT -5
"Whatever the difficulties of the times, and our sorrow because of divisions in the church and a corrupt gospel in the world, it is ever open unto us to please God. If this great success of pleasing God be not ours, in ourselves lies the hindrances."
R C Chapman of whom Spurgeon says he was the saintliest man he ever knew.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:06:46 GMT -5
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
Does this equate with some of the attitudes espoused on our brother Rubens web site?
Against our brothers in Christ, part of our body.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:09:22 GMT -5
Jesse, perhaps your closeness to him and others can be used by God to gently correct him where you see errors. Because I'm sure from your posts, your testimony, and your preaching that obedience to God is important to you, and representing the love of God in Christ is also.
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 28, 2006 16:16:26 GMT -5
Elijah used satire as a form of rebuke. 1Ki 18:27 - "And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." Jesus Christ also used satire as a form of rebuke, "whitewashed tombs". I always enjoy satirical writings. John Fletcher, in his methodist classic, "Checks to Antinomians" where he wrote personal letters to ministers who attacked John Wesley and called him a heretic, used a great deal of wit and satire to make his point. I think satire can be used as a very effective form of rebuke, as well as a very effective way to make a point abundantly clear. Douglas Wilson has a great book on biblical satire called, "The Serrated Edge". I recommend it. Satire is good, if one uses it good. So you believe Ruben's photos of men comitting sodomy with other men is "satire"? You compare this to Biblical satire?
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:17:17 GMT -5
Psalm 101:5 Whoever secretly slanders his neighbor, Him I will destroy; The one who has a haughty look and a proud heart, Him I will not endure.
Just a scriptue for all of us to concider...do we slander our neighbors...brothers....sisters....we must all be careful to glorify our Lord in all we say and do. Remember the WORLD is watching and scripture says that they will know us by our love one for another.
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:18:06 GMT -5
Jesse already said he didn't agree with that picture
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Post by alan4jc on Nov 28, 2006 16:20:37 GMT -5
Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 28, 2006 16:31:33 GMT -5
Jesse already said he didn't agree with that picture Praise the Lord! You're correct; possibly Jesse and others who know the man may help him in prayer to get out of such methods which cause sinners to hate God further and remove themselves from compassionate men such as Mark Cahill, Ray Comfor, RevK, etc etc. I do believe that God can and will, through much prayer, speak to Ruben's heart; that he has in fact already been speaking. It's up to us to heed His Word.
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