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Post by messengermicah on Apr 3, 2006 11:02:17 GMT -5
ejuliot,
You are really making some great points. Some of these are things that I have also had problems with.
lizlovesjesus,
You are also making some very good points.
Armen,
You are also making some good points.
To some degree I agree with all three of you. I hope this discussion continues because it has been a real dilemma for me for years. I do not really like most contemporary Christian music and I do not approve at all of the industry, but I want to be careful in condemning all of it (or at least most of it) because I do not see where the line is drawn clearly in Scripture.
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Post by tomah on Apr 3, 2006 11:55:28 GMT -5
Well, I also have to agree that I don't like Hillsong (is there a girl Amy Grant? I don't approve of her either) I don't particularly like country gospel either, because I just think it is the same as Christian rock, pop, jazz, raggae, etc etc...
Let me say this though...I do not appreciate any of these forms, BUT if some Christians feel like they HAVE to do it, then at the very least, leave it outside church. If you feel that God wants you to headbang etc 'in the name of Jesus' then do it in a concert, but not when people are coming to worship God.
In our denomination we have a minister called, Rev. William McCrea and he sings country gospel. I don't like criticizing the man because over the years he has led many souls to Christ, but he has started bringing it a wee TINY bit into church services at special events. For years he has had concerts. They clap at these concerts too which I don't like, because I wonder who are they clapping at and what for?? I mean, a Christian might say they are clapping to the Lord (why they feel that God wants them to do that I just don't know), but if there is a non Christian they will not think that, they'll think everyone is clapping at the 'performer'.
It's a big topic and difficult to deal with on a message board to people we don't reallt know, but I have very strong convictions about it.
God bless!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 3, 2006 12:56:38 GMT -5
I'm curious, do you imply that clapping is not concidered a valid way of worship/praise?
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Post by tomah on Apr 3, 2006 13:14:44 GMT -5
I'm curious, do you imply that clapping is not concidered a valid way of worship/praise? I am not dogmatic on this issue, but I just don't understand it's value/point/edification or whatever way you wanna put it. Would you like to show/teach me it's purpose/reason bro?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 3, 2006 13:18:40 GMT -5
I don't necessarily understand it...
But it would have to be a form of worship or you wouldn't have a problem with it, right? You feel as though some might be 'worshipping' the person instead of God? I think that would be impossible if clapping wasn't a form of worship.
Psa 47:1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 3, 2006 13:25:52 GMT -5
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap [their] hands: let the hills be joyful together
I know that verse isn't really talking about people but it's clapping usualy an expression of joy or pleasure? Maybe clapping could show joy or pleasure in God? Some people when they hear something really funny or something they really like clap without even thinking about it. They same goes with raising your hands. Just watch a gameshow. When someone wins they usually raise their hands, right? I think it's interesting... Maybe God just placed these type of things in us?
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Post by tomah on Apr 3, 2006 13:33:01 GMT -5
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap [their] hands: let the hills be joyful together I know that verse isn't really talking about people but it's clapping usualy an expression of joy or pleasure? Maybe clapping could show joy or pleasure in God? Some people when they hear something really funny or something they really like clap without even thinking about it. They same goes with raising your hands. Just watch a gameshow. When someone wins they usually raise their hands, right? I think it's interesting... Maybe God just placed these type of things in us? Interesting point, but I have never had the urge to 'clap' towards God (just speaking for myself obviously). Also, I have a problem with using the OT to back up ways to worship as it was all part of the ceremonial law which was abolished. This has led to me wondering if (scripturally) there are ANY grounds or reasons to have a musical instrument in worship. I am trying to find a reason, but it's not it the bible as far as I can see.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 3, 2006 14:32:52 GMT -5
I think that it is not that all clapping is bad, I know that in our culture after a performer performs people clap to show that they thought they did well. I know that before I was saved I would clap after a worship song. I wasn't clapping for the sake of praising God, but to glorify the musicians. I also think that there might be some differences in where each of us is coming from. My brother used to be in the "Christan" emo/ punk band scene and I have gone to modern "Christian" churches all my life. I was asking myself this question in chapel this morning...we were singing blessed assurance but there was a full band behind it. I was wondering if the music was adding to the "fuzzy feeling" in worship. Would I praise God the same way without the music. If not then I think that the music is just a distraction, If so then it is fine. I came to the conclusion that it was a distraction. I don't think I would say get rid of all music but I there is a line that can be crossed. At my current church the music is accompanied by a piano, harp, and jimbe (sp?). I rarely even notice the music or the singers on the stage. I think that this should always be the case. I hope that makes sense!
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Post by tomah on Apr 3, 2006 14:58:19 GMT -5
Makes total sense sister. We use an organ and piano only, but even though I agree that such instruments generally don't distract like the band you mentioned (which I whole heartedly agree with what you're saying about that by the way...adding a 'feeling' which is not of the Spirit) I have been studying scripture and I can't find any evidence that instruments are biblical in the NT church.
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Post by praying4souls on Apr 4, 2006 11:29:38 GMT -5
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Post by lizlovesjesus on Apr 5, 2006 16:16:30 GMT -5
ejuliot,I am from East Africa.Kenya to be exact.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 5, 2006 19:48:06 GMT -5
Liz, My brother in Law is from Kenya! I had a feeling you were as well.
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Post by tomah on Apr 6, 2006 12:20:05 GMT -5
We have missionaries in Kenya, with a Christian School and Bible Book Shop!
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Post by eternalmog on Apr 7, 2006 14:05:58 GMT -5
Hello everybody, Thank you praying4souls for posting a link to my site. My name is Derrick Trent and I do gospel rap music. I can understand where a lot of you are coming from. When I first got saved, I wondered whether I should do rap music or not. Then, as I learned more of the Bible and got closer to the Lord, I knew that God had given me this gift for a reason. If you listen to my music, you will see that I do not water anything down, I get right to the point. You will not find any veiled references to God, like we see in so much music today. I want people to know exactly Who I am talking about. You will also see that my music is filled with Scripture. The Bible says that we are born again by the Word of God and by His Spirit. So what I am doing is putting God's Word over beats that people in the world are more likely to listen to. This plants the seed of the gospel in people and gives God something to work with in that persons life. My music is not like most "rap" music that you hear. I believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the music that I make. Armen, you wrote (paraphrased) that if you were at a traffic light and you were listening to any type of CCM, people would think that you are the same as any other young fella. Check out this portion of an e-mail someone sent me: "By the way, my husband was getting an oil change. An Asian guy was in charge of our van and he heard your CD, he asked my husband about it because he explained he'd never heard such lyrics. He was moved by them and really liked what he'd heard. Before driving away my husband battled with giving away this CD, but had to obey the Spirit that lead. He blessed this guy with the CD. You are winning souls through your music.. Stay encouraged."I added the emphasis to the words "he'd never heard such lyrics." That is what it is all about. If the lyrics are strong, then I don't think the music is really that big of a deal. Having said that, there are certain styles of music that, in my opinion, do no convert well to "Christian." Such as really heavy metal. First of all, you can't hear what the person is saying, and secondly, the music is usually really dark. If someone can show me a heavy metal band that glorifies the Lord Jesus, I will stand corrected. But I have not heard one. This ministry that God has so graciously given me has opened up many doors and presented many oportunities for ministry that I would not have had otherwise. I give away a lot of CDs to young people. I just ask them if they like rap music, and then give them a CD. That person walks away with all he needs to come to know the Lord. And it is not just for lost people. I receive e-mail all the time from Christians telling me that my songs have blessed them, encouraged them, and how they have been moved to tears by my songs. Here is an e-mail I received from someone @ Ray Comfort's ministry: "We recently received a copy of your CD that was sent in by your mother. This morning, as Ray and I were driving to preach open-air at the court house (which we do every morning), I played your song: "Blood Bought." It brought Ray to tears and he asked me to play it again. This song is very powerful and we were both extremely blessed by it."Here is one I just received today: "Hey, I love your music, i was crying before the Lord when I heard blood bought, the lyrics are clear and i love how you quote the Wordof God."I thank the Lord that He has blessed me with this gift, and I pray that He will continue to use it to win souls, and encourage and build up His body. The apostle Paul said, "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some (1 Cor. 9:22). This music is just one of many possible means to win souls to Jesus. And, the Lord willing, I will continue to use it to do just that. To God be all the glory! Sorry this post is so long. I encourage ALL of you to go to my site: www.soundclick.com/eternalmog, and listen to EVERY song, while you look at the lyrics. I have the lyrics to every song posted. then come back here and discuss it with me. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all, Derrick
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 7, 2006 15:20:15 GMT -5
I have to admit my preconception was very negative because I figured you were just another "Christian" rapper that made false claims. I admit I was very wrong and I am sorry.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 7, 2006 15:23:34 GMT -5
Ok, ok, I must confess I love that song. Great to have you on the boards bro. I DL it when Ray Comfort sent out a link to it on his newletter.
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Post by lizlovesjesus on Apr 7, 2006 16:19:17 GMT -5
Wow ejuliot thats amazing.Good news also Armen that there are missionaries in Kenya!!!
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Post by tomah on Apr 7, 2006 18:10:52 GMT -5
Liz,
Yeah, there are 54 young people from our churches going out to Kenya this August to paint the Christian School. I trust that many of them will get a vision for the work and even be led into full time service themselves in such areas.
About the rap/CCM....I really don't wanna get into this, I have enough to do at the moment, but I cannot agree with such 'methods' of seeking to win the lost. For a start I don't like the idea of using music almost like the primary way of spreading the gospel. It's the same with these 'dramas' that Christians are using nowadays...it's perverting the gospel and the great commission to PREACH the gospel. But then I suppose preaching is unpopular these days, so I can see why wimpy Christians wanna find less offensive ways of spreading the message of Christ.
Remember the good old fashioned hymn with one of the verses saying:
Must I be carried to the skys On flowery beds of ease While others fought to win the prize And sailed through bloody seas?
If that guy was so touched by the lyrics, then it wouldn't matter what genre or style of music they were in, it would have the same effect. So why not transfer the lyrics to more 'melodious' music?? For one, it can't be confused with worldly music; and secondly, it'll be alot easier to make out the words!
For me it's a case of, 'if you can't beat them, join them'. Yeah, join the world and her style of music....that'll attract the multitudes. I can just see John the Baptist if he was about today, with his $100,000 music kit, with synthesizers, drums, different guitars, amps, speakers, mixing desk, recording studio, etc, etc, etc...that'll draw a crowd. Yeah, sure it will...and it's alot easier than pleading and pleading and weeping and crying to God for power and fire!!!
Oh may God forgive us all!!
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Post by eternalmog on Apr 8, 2006 12:31:37 GMT -5
ejuliot: Don't worry about it, apology accepted. We all tend to judge things before we hear the matter fully. Atleast, I know I do. The Lord bless you for you honesty.
Hey Josh, thanks. I'm glad to be here.
Armen,
I respectfully disagree with your opinion. If we follow your argument (that we should only PREACH the gospel) through to its logical conclusion, then that means we shoudn't use tracts or the printed page to reach the lost either. Correct?
It seems to me that you are saying, unless there is someone standing up and preaching, then everything else is useless in bringing people to Christ. Okay then, if that's how you feel, consider this: Preaching is speaking the Word's of God. Correct? Why can't we speak the Words of God in a rhyme, over music and get the same result? Through the Word of God and the Spirit of God people are born again. Correct? Music is just one of many ways (and one of the most powerful ways) to get the Word of God into people so the Spirit of God has something to work with.
I believe that there is enough of the gospel in my music to get someone saved. Or at the very least to get them thinking about the things of God. However, you will notice on my soundclick page the track entitled "The Good Test." There I give a gospel presentation, not in a song but just speaking over music. My ministry is primarily one of planting seeds. Others will water, but God will give the increase.
You said:
"If that guy was so touched by the lyrics, then it wouldn't matter what genre or style of music they were in, it would have the same effect"
Do me a favor please, Armen: get a copy of the lyrics to Blood Bought and try "singing" them. It would be utterly impossible. Or, it would be a 10 minute song!!! Or, it would sound ridiculous and NOBODY would want to listen to it. There are just too many words in the song. That is why the genre of rap music lends itself very well to the gospel message. Because you can incorporate a lot of words into the songs.
I have never had someone tell me that they cannot "make out" the lyrics in my songs. In fact, just the opposite is true. People say that they usually don't like rap music because they can't understand the lyrics, but they can understand every word I am saying.
You said:
"Yeah, sure it will...and it's alot easier than pleading and pleading and weeping and crying to God for power and fire!!!"
Your assumption is false. You assume that because I try and use music to reach people that I am not earnestly praying and seeking God for His power and fire. Why do you assume that? I also don't appreciate you implying that I am a "wimpy Christian." We should be seeking to build each other up, not tear each other down, and language like that is not building anyone up. And by the way, it is not the way that we present the message of Christ that is offensive, it is the message itself that is offensive. Or atleast that's the way it should be.
We need to be very careful so we don't take our personal preference or taste in music and try to somehow find a biblical bases for condemning all other forms of expression in music.
To the Law and Testimony!
Show me in the Scriptures where it talks about the exact melodies, or the exact style I should use in music, and then I will listen. I don't believe it is in there.
Again, Armen, I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. I will continue to use any means I can to reach the world with the truth that they so desperately need.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all,
Derrick
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Post by tomah on Apr 8, 2006 18:07:16 GMT -5
Derrick, Read my message, I didn't say preaching was the only method, but I did say and imply that it is to be the primary method. I find many churches and groups have loads and loads of 'worship' then something like a 'drama' and then for a few minutes quoting John 3:16 and saying that if anyone would be interested in asking Jesus into their heart, please come forward. It's heresy!! God's primary way of saving souls is through the preached word. However, I think that in some cases there is so little preaching, that God uses music and dramas inspite of the people to save souls. Other times I think that most that are 'saved' aren't really saved at all, they were emotionally moved by the music (which I believe strongly is one of the reasons that it's of the devil) and they mistakenly think it's conviction, (when it's not) and they make a 'decision' for Christ. However, they carry on through life living like the devil, holding onto their 'decision' as a means of acceptance with God. I did not direct this statement at you as an individual, but as a general rule. You see this is the problem that I have...we are not called or commanded to use " any" means that we can. There are serious limits to what can be used as a method of reaching the lost. A.W. Tozer once said, " A bad witness is worse than no witness at all". I agree! Music is a form of communication, just like language and art. Language uses different combinations of letters. No single letter is sinful or moral, but depending on how different letters are formed, makes up the morality of what is being communicated; either good (wholesome, edifying, neccessary words) or bad (blasphemy, swearing, etc). Art is basically made up of a combination of lines and circles. You take a page and draw a line, it does not have any moral message. But if you combine different lines and circles to form a pornographic picture, it communicates a message of sin. Music is just the same. No particular note has a moral message. But depending on the combination of notes, a moral message is portrayed; either good or evil. Ever heard any of Handel's Messiah? It communicates a sane, understandable message or good morality. The very same pieces can be altered to sound evil and corrupt and USUALLY the difference is to do with instruments of melody or rhythm. Pieces based on 'melody' (flutes, violins, etc) are usually sane and understandable. Pieces based on 'rhythm' are usually characterised with lust, insanity, etc. Once rhythm overtakes the melody, you have an unscriptural and satanic style of music (the Bible says to "sing and make MELODY in your heart" not 'rhythm') CCM is made up of: Bass Guitars = rhythm Sythesizers = rhythm Drums = rhythm Lead guitars = melody Rhythm drowns the melody and we are moved by 'the beat' not the melody (it's hypnotic). Rap is most definately rhythmic music...it is unscriptural. The joy of N.T. is the 'simplicity' in worshipping God in a melodious manner and not beats and bangs drowning out semi-spiritual lyrics! Someone on here directed me to this message, www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=144&min=80&orderby=titleA&show=20I heartly suggest that you watch it. It's is primarily on the power of prayer, but there are some other interesting statements and principles.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 8, 2006 20:52:16 GMT -5
The only music I see in the New Testament that the Church took part in were hymns.
Jesus sang hymns with His disciples at the last supper. Paul and Silas sang hymns in prison.
I can very confidently say that there will be no "Christian Rock" in Heaven.
The Church is to be God's earthly representatives of Heaven - ambassadors. An ambassador is not to adopt the culture he is sent to. Why are we doing that? Why take the worlds ways and the worlds music and try to sanctify them to make them Christian? We ought to be different, we ought to represent Heaven.
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Post by eternalmog on Apr 8, 2006 21:08:22 GMT -5
Armen,
I read your message again, and I apologize for misrepresenting what you said.
I agree with you that churches should not worship for awhile do a little "drama," quote John 3:16 and then ask people to receive Jesus. As you said, things like that are more playing on peoples emotions than anything else. However, what you have described in no way, shape, or form describes my music. I think we can use music as one of many methods if we "preach" the message strong enough in the songs. Would you agree with that?
You said:
"You see this is the problem that I have...we are not called or commanded to use "any" means that we can.
To me, what the apostle Paul said is close enough,
"I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some (1 Cor. 9:22).
We have means that they did not have in there day, and we should use all possible means to win people to Christ.
My songs are not designed to be "worship" songs, I mainly write songs to reach the lost. Every song I write is filled with Scripture, biblically sound, and presents the gospel in a clear and understandable manner. If you listen to my songs you will not walk away from them thinking you can "carry on through life living like the devil." In my songs I speak of sin, righteousness, repentance, hell, the cross, holy living, etc... Why is this any different than a preacher speaking the same things from a pulpit or on the street?
You said the Bible says "sing and make melody in your heart not 'rhythm.'" Well, that all depends on which translation you are using. If you are refering to Eph. 5:19 some versions have the word "melody," and some have the word "music." So I don't think you can use this verse to condemn rap music as unscriptural because it has rhythm in it.
I agree that if the rhythm in a song drowns out the words and you have semi-spiritual lyrics, then the song becomes sort of like what's the point, and then I guess the point is just to be moved by the beat. But again, this in no way, shape, or form describes my music.
You will notice in my songs that the basslines and drums do NOT drown out the lyrics. I mix all of my songs myself, and in every song I make absolutely certain that my vocals are the loudest part of the mix. I don't really focus too much on the musical aspect of it. Other than to say the beat goes well with the lyrics and the message I want to communicate in a song. Also, Maybe I should stop describing my music as rap music, because honestly, I haven't heard any "rap" music like mine, and others have told me the same thing. So I guess you could say that I am defending my music here, more than others.
Maybe we will have to agree to disagree, because I think what this basically boils down to is a person's preference more than anything else.
Let me tell you why I think that it is God who has inspired me to do this music: Every Christian who has ever heard it has told me how much of a blessing, or how challenging, or how uplifting my music has been to them. Or, how my music makes them want to study the Word more and get closer to God. I don't think the devil is in the business of glorifying God and driving people closer to Him. This may sound like I am "tooting my own horn," but trust me, I give all the glory to God. He is the One who has given me this gift, and I praise Him every day for it. And I want to use it to win souls to Christ. Period.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all,
Derrick
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 21:12:26 GMT -5
Kanye West: "Jesus Walks"
Good stuff that.
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Post by lizlovesjesus on Apr 8, 2006 22:14:02 GMT -5
Morluna, Kanye west is not a christian.You cant have fellowship with demons and also have fellowship with God(1 corinthians 10:21).He has a song that claims Jesus walks with him.You should know that a lot of people use Jesus' name in the wrong way.How could he have an album that has songs talking about the lust thats in the world and then claim one song is about Jesus?That is a mockery of God.
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Post by lizlovesjesus on Apr 8, 2006 22:19:05 GMT -5
Derrick God bless you, I too know some christian rappers that rap to reach the lost.They say that they dont do it to entertain but to preach.They even give their albums out for free.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 22:27:17 GMT -5
Morluna, Kanye west is not a christian.You cant have fellowship with demons and also have fellowship with God(1 corinthians 10:21).He has a song that claims Jesus walks with him.You should know that a lot of people use Jesus' name in the wrong way.How could he have an album that has songs talking about the lust thats in the world and then claim one song is about Jesus?That is a mockery of God. Wow. "fellowship with demons" You guys continually amaze me with your hate. Is there anyone you DON'T condemn to satanism and idolatry?
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Post by lizlovesjesus on Apr 8, 2006 22:37:33 GMT -5
Hi again Morluna.You've probably heard of the 10 commandments.One of the commandments is "You shall not have any other gods beside me".See God only wants us to worship him and him alone.If we try to worship him and also worship something else he sees us as double minded and this is idolatry.So Kanye West having songs that glorify lust and then trying to have a song that claims Jesus just wont do in God's eyes.If its worshiping God,it has to be him alone.If its songs to God then they have to be to his glory alone.God will not share his glory with another.This is not hate its speaking the truth as the bible states it.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 22:42:59 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with ALL of Kanye's music. Could you maybe share some titles in which he advocates glorifying lust? I've only listened to a few of his songs, and "Jesus Walks" is one. I've mostly listened to a lot of his joint productions with Common and The Roots, two artists/groups that are very culturally conscious as well as rooted in spirituality.
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Post by tomah on Apr 9, 2006 10:02:48 GMT -5
Eternalmog,
I think you should take into consideration not only what I said, but the truth that Jesse said also.
How did I know that you were going to quote 1 Cor 9:22
Would Paul become a pimp in order to win prostitutes?? I think you need to be careful that you're not twisting Paul's meaning here in order to suit your own evangelistic ideas. As Spurgeon said, if someone is sinking in a swamp, we don't get into the swamp to help them out, we stand on something solid that is not part of the swamp and pull them out. Evangelistic rap/rock is getting into the swamp to try and pull people out.
The problem is, if people hear your music, they are going to think it's ok to worship God with rap. You give off a bad image...i'd go as far as to say (with all respect to your heart and your walk with God) that it gives off a satanic image. Rap etc, all was born in the pit of hell and it's what people (even the ungodly) associate it with. When people think of rap, they think East side Westt side, drive by shootings, etc.
I think you need to realise that the end does not justify the means.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 10, 2006 9:31:11 GMT -5
Worship is not constituted by music. Praise may be. Anyone can praise, but few worship.
Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the behind; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
I would say it is constituted by obedience.
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