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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 23:06:15 GMT -5
I have one more question for you guys before I turn in for the night:
How do you feel about birth control and sex education?
Should students be educated on how to have safe sex or should sex education programs in schools be abstinence only?
Is birth control immoral? Are only certain types of birth control immoral? Example: the pill vs condoms vs emergency contraception (the morning after pill/plan b), etc.?
How do you feel about the True Love Waits youth program? Do you find it to be effective in preventing teen pregnancy and STIs?
Yesterday, Miles told us a story called "D-i-c-k (stupid board made it say thingy) Jane and Sally." In the story, D-i-c-k and Jane have unprotected sex and she contracts an STI from him. ... then she dies and goes to Hell. Sally on the other hand, turns to God and does not have unsafe or premarital sex and goes on to live a happy life and go to Heaven when she dies.
Is this story meant to imply that you believe all STIs are deadly and untreatable, or that you believe the "sin" of premarital sex is unforgivable?
Peace and love, Morluna
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 8, 2006 23:45:06 GMT -5
Sure thing. I think birth control is AWEFUL, with a capital "A". Since childeren are a blessing from the Lord, it is foolish to try and stop the blessing of God. "Lo, childeren are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate." Psalm 127:3-5 I hope to have many kids one day. Well, any sex that will land you in hell is not safe at all. The only safe sex is holy sex, they used to call it holy matrimony. It is safe and holy when it is between a man and a woman that are married. I am a proud virgin and by the grace of God I will be until my wedding night. In fact, I don't even plan on engaging in any of this pre-marital kissing that's going around... Like I said, I don't think birth is control good. One needs to decide before the bedroom as to whether they want to or are ready to have a child or not. And I think this morning after pill might as well be abortion which is murder. Hmm... can't really say I know too much about this program, although I have heard about it. I haven't seen any statistics, so I'm not sure how effective it is. I stand on principle though and not pragmatism. Whether more people or less people get STDs or get pregnant isn't really the battle. It is the pre-marital sex itself and the lust that is the problem. Many will sin no matter you say, but I think it still needs to be said. Ahh.. yes... the story of D-I-C-K, JANE and SALLY... Most on these boards have yet to hear that one. I'm glad you remembered most of the story line. I'm not saying all STDs will kill you or that they are untreatable. I'm also not saying pre-marital sex is unforgivable. All sin is forgivable, if one would repent of it and accept Jesus as their LORD and savior. You'll remember in the story that Sally realized, at the funeral of Jane, that the wages of sin IS death. She then picked up a Bible and asked the Lord to forgive her of all her sins and then repented of those sins and served the Lord and went to heaven when she died. The moral of the story is that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord. Don't be deceived by the pleasure of sin for a season, it leads to death and hell. Repent and believe the gospel today while you are still able. I hope that answered your questions. Love and peace , Miles
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Post by Morluna on Apr 9, 2006 10:27:48 GMT -5
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I entirely disagree of course, but I respect your well thought out answers just the same. TLW (True Love Waits) is a very popular youth group program here, but I think it may be less popular in other parts of the country so that explains why you may not be very familiar with it. Here is their website if you're interested. This program was used in my church during my teenage years to guard against premarital sex in the teens of our congregation. It teaches scare tactics to kids, instructing them that no form of contraception is very effective at preventing pregnancy or guarding against disease. It does not teach anything about what to do if you are sexually assaulted or raped, or what to do if you make a mistake and have sex, to later regret it (i.e., the morning after, etc.) In fact, by instilling feelings of fear and loathing towards sex, instructors (consciously or unconsciously) convince students that if they DO make a mistake, they have done something horrible and unforgivable. So what do they do? They don't tell anyone. They keep it to themselves and pray that God will make it all better. If instead, they were instructed in a more loving way, if they were taught that waiting for marriage is the best way and is God's chosen way, (if you want to take that as a given, as you obviously do) but were ALSO taught that if they DO make a mistake or someone takes advantage of them against their will, that they have options... I think this would be MUCH healthier. Fine, okay, teach them they should wait until marriage. If that's your doctrine, great. Teach that. But I think any program should also instruct students of the options and safeguards they have available to them in the case of an unavoidable crime against their own person, or in the case of a personal choice that went wrong. Here, I'm mostly referring to an oral pill known as Emergency Contraception. It's also been called The Morning After Pill and Plan B, depending on which company is producing it. If unprotected sex occurs, the pill can be taken within 72-150 hours afterward and will prevent pregnancy from occuring. But if a young woman doesn't know about it, she can't use it. I just think there should be options. Also, kids should be able to know that their parents and other adult caretakers love them and are going to be there for them when they need help. With programs like TLW, and any program that teaches ONLY abstinence, this is completely overlooked, and teens live in constant fear of making a mistake. The handouts they gave us even warned against being in the same ROOM alone with someone of the opposite sex. There were rules as ridiculous as "avoid getting into the horizontal position." If I were to have a friend over to watch a movie after school, TLW would say we can't even lie on my bed together to see the screen. I have had very close male friends in the past, with whom I would never consider having a romantic relationship. But TLW would say that I should live in constant terror of suddenly losing control to my hormones and sexing him up while we're innocently hanging out. Also, I should point out that recent statistics on the TLW program found it to be 89% ineffective at preventing premarital sex in the students it was presented to. EIGHTY.. NINE... PERCENT. I am currently studying to become a high school English teacher, and do you know what the first thing they taught me in my first education class at college was? If over 30% of your class is failing the course, the problem is not the students. The problem is YOU. The bottom line - No educational system should be based on fear. Simple as that.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 9, 2006 13:15:49 GMT -5
I guess by that logic, Jesus was the biggest failure in history. ALL his followers left him the night he was taken to be crucified. Jesus said straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to life and only a few will go that way.
We have fundamental differences in our views. You think abortion is ok, I believe it to be morally wrong. Abortion should never be one of many options. While sin is forgivable, there may still be many consequences. If one was violated or forced into something, I absolutely agree that they should be shown love and compassion, but I would never advise an abortion which is still murder. The thing with regret, typically once it is experienced, there is very little that can be done to remedy it. But God be thanked that the most wicked, dirty, filthy, vile wretch, like even myself, can be made new and washed clean through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Miles
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Post by Jules on Apr 9, 2006 14:06:14 GMT -5
Morluna, just so you know, this issue is debated even within "Christian" circles. The birth control issue, not the sex education issue. Here is the reason why, as Miles said, birth control for some as viewed as basically inervering with God's planned blessings of children in our lives. That I agree with. But this is the reason I am more against birth control than any other reason - particularly use of the pill.
MANY MANY Christian women do not know this because of the deception of the world, society, etc. But the Pill can (not always of course) cause abortions. And of course abortion is murder and wrong, even unintentional murder. When women take the pill, ther eis still a chance an egg will be fertiled. The pill doesn't prevent fertilization of course, just the planting of the embryo on the wall of the uterus. So, for many Christian women, by taking the pill, they may have prevented a pregnancy from completion. They could have gotten pregnant many times and then aborted quickly after because of the pill. So in that sense, using the pill is especially horrific. If you want to discuss the issue of abortion on another thread, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 9, 2006 14:27:55 GMT -5
I don't think you can equate turning away from someone you supposedly love in their time of need with failing to understand a concept because it has not been presented to you properly. The two situations are entirely different. Here you are mistaken. I do not think abortion is "okay." I think it's horrible! I would never want to have one, and I would like to think that I never would. But in truth, we are human and we never know what we will do when placed in a particular situation. I get so angry when I hear Christians claim that if they were faced with a gunman in their face asking if they believe in God, they would proudly say yes. No one can know what they would do if placed in a situation like that. Peter steadfastly denied that he would never forsake Christ, but he did. 3 times. I hate abortion, and I don't think an unwanted pregnancy should ever have to come to that, particularly with modern technology. We have EC now, a pill that is NOT a chemical abortion, but simply works like a big dose of regular birth control pills. Contrary to popular belief, conception does not occur immediately after intercourse. It could take up to a week and a half for a woman to become pregnant after having sex. This pill simply prevents that from happening, rather than reversing something that has already been done. Kind of off topic, but I feel the need to address the issue so that you understand where I personally am coming from. I do not intend to have "premarital" sex as you call it. That is to say, I have a lot of problems with the whole institution of legal marriage and how it is practiced today, so I'm not sure I'll have one. To use a very Animal Planet-esque term (haha), to me, taking a mate constitutes a life-long commitment to love and care for one another. When I do choose to take a lover, it will be understood between the two of us that it is a binding commitment and not simply a physical act. Also, when I DO become sexually active I intend to either begin taking the pill or using the patch for birth control. So while I don't foresee ever needing an abortion, and pray I am never faced with that decision, I do not think the option should be closed to someone who needs it. In just the same way that I support equal rights for LGBTs as a straight woman and combat the everyday struggle against racism as a white woman, I do not think that medically sound and humane options should be closed to anyone based on my own personal belief. I wouldn't want an abortion, but I would not restrict my sister and fellow human being from making that choice if she feels it is right for her. So, I personally would never choose to have an abortion. As one of my friends with Planned Parenthood recently said, "Abortion is what happens when we've failed to do our job." Groups like Planned Parenthood are not about handing out abortions left and right. Instead, they strive to educate people on how to avoid having to resort to such methods of pregnancy prevention. With products like condoms, BC pills and patches, and EC, no one should EVER have to make the choice: To abort or not to abort? With prior planning and education, it should never come to that result. Just the same, if a woman finds herself, for whatver reason... in the situation where the time available to take EC has passed, and she chooses to seek an abortion, I do not believe she should be denied that legal right. You and I both agree that abortion is bad, but tell me this: Would you prefer to make abortion illegal and revert back to the days of illegal "back door" abortions using coathangers; a horribly unsanitary, unprofessional, and unsafe practice that lead to the death and sickness of many women up until the 1960s? This is exactly what will happen if abortion is made illegal again. People are not going to stop having them, they are simply going to return to unsanitary, dangerous, and hurtful methods of having them. I say that if a woman chooses to have an abortion, she should be able to seek out a healthy and medically sound mode of doing so. But of course, my entire argument rests on the assumption that you believe women have equal rights to men, which you proved not to be the case on Friday. Also, as a man, I do not believe you can comprehend the fear and helplessless experienced by woman when she has no control over her own body and the things that are being done to her. If you happened to (God forbid) get some girl pregnant, all you have to do is walk away and forget it ever happened. She is left to suffer the consequences of both your actions, and you can get off scot free quite easily. Sure, you say that God will hold you accountable, but man won't. And in addition to that, all you have to do to gain forgiveness for yourself from God is to repent and turn away from your former mistake. It's simple really. She however, is left with an unwanted burden in her womb and no way to get free of it. But like I said, you cannot have any idea how that helplessness feels, so I will not expect you to understand why I feel so strongly about this issue. Love and peace, Morluna Morluna, just so you know, this issue is debated even within "Christian" circles. The birth control issue, not the sex education issue. Here is the reason why, as Miles said, birth control for some as viewed as basically inervering with God's planned blessings of children in our lives. That I agree with. But this is the reason I am more against birth control than any other reason - particularly use of the pill. MANY MANY Christian women do not know this because of the deception of the world, society, etc. But the Pill can (not always of course) cause abortions. And of course abortion is murder and wrong, even unintentional murder. When women take the pill, ther eis still a chance an egg will be fertiled. The pill doesn't prevent fertilization of course, just the planting of the embryo on the wall of the uterus. So, for many Christian women, by taking the pill, they may have prevented a pregnancy from completion. They could have gotten pregnant many times and then aborted quickly after because of the pill. So in that sense, using the pill is especially horrific. If you want to discuss the issue of abortion on another thread, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I'm aware that this is a heated issue among Christian groups as well. And I would argue that the sex education issue is also contraversal among Christians, not just the BC issue. I know plenty of Christians who advocate medical sex education rather than faith-based-only educational programs. Your argument is closely tied to the debate over at what point life begins. Many religious groups (apparently including your own), believe that life begins at conception. I do not. I believe that life begins at the point at which brain activity begins. This is around the 4th month I believe, but don't quote me on that... I'm not sure... anyway, I don't believe that terminating a single-cell fertilized egg is murder. That's just me.
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Post by prolifedorothy on Apr 9, 2006 15:05:33 GMT -5
Morluna, you ask a lot of good questions. Abortion does not do anyone any good. If it was such a good thing that empowered women then the pro-choice crowd should be encouraging more rather than saying "abortion should be safe, legal and RARE."
Now I agree that abortion is legal. And it is comparatively safe (physically) in the early stages. Although I have known women to get a DVT (Deep Vein Thrombos - blood clot) from a first trimester abortion.
However, in my 14 years of counseling women who submit to an abortion, and those who escort them into the abortion facility, I haven't seen the "Empowerment" that this type of procedure is supposed to give the participants.
As for birth control, many of the methods prevent a already conceived embryo from implanting in the uterine wall. And therefor is an early chemical abortion.
I am not without sympathy for those who "find themselves pregnant." But honestly does one ever wake up one morning and "find themselves pregnant" like it's something left by the Easter Bunny. Unless of course one is truly raped, one goes out, takes ones clothing of, gets horizontal, and engages in the act of sexual intercourse. Only to wake up in the furture, discover they are in the pregnant state and wish it never happened. So what do we say to these women? That is why we have the CPC's, Crisi Pregnancy Centers all over the country to assist, adoption agencies, etc. People do make mistakes, they have regrets, even the Christians on this board. But we don't go and pay someone to kill our children and grandchildren. Two of my children were pregnant out of wedlock "they did the old fashioned thing" and got married. I now have 8 grandbaby girls and the two who were conceived out of wedlock are very special to me. We all make mistakes, we all sin against a Holy God and deserve Hell. But God commends his great love toward us in the while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. If there wasen't the wrath on God on sin there would not be the Cross of Calvary. As far as TLW and abstinence sex-ed, if one puts oneself in a compromizing position, it's liek getting too close to the fire. We teach our children to cross at the crossing and have school crossing guards, 20 mile an hour zones, and all kinds of things to keep these little ones from getting hurt by a car. The same thing with abstinence ed. Morluna, I call myself prolife but I don't go around making women get pregnant in the first place. But those that are already pregnant I say give this baby a chance at life. Those who have had abortions in the past I assist in anyway I can emotionally, spiritually, etc. I am deeply concerned for them.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 10, 2006 0:28:21 GMT -5
That is no excuse to murder a child. Two wrongs don't make a right. I could never in good concience make excuses for abortion. I'm glad that think abortion is bad, but is it wrong?
Dorothy could probably give a lot more reasons, both morally and medically about why it is wrong though.
Miles
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 2:03:21 GMT -5
That is no excuse to murder a child. Two wrongs don't make a right. I could never in good concience make excuses for abortion. I'm glad that think abortion is bad, but is it wrong? Dorothy could probably give a lot more reasons, both morally and medically about why it is wrong though. Miles As I said before, I would not personally want to have one, but I do not have the right to say what another woman can do with her own body. Additionally, I have had the good fortune to be educated about sex and the emotional as well as physical implications of engaging in it, the possible results of engaging in unprotected sex, and the options for safety available to me as a woman at such time that I do become sexually involved with a partner. Many MANY young women (men too, but since we're talking about pregnancy...) have NOT been educated properly on these issues. I have heard stories of teens having sex and getting pregnant without even knowing what they are doing. By the time they realize what they've done, and are educated about it, it's too late. They're already pregnant. Should they be punished for the shortcomings of the public educational system and the failings of their parents to educate them in the home? Would you advocate beating a woman to punish her for engaging in "sexual promiscuity" if she were a rape victim? This is essentially the same kind of situation. A young, innocent teenager does not instinctively know about sex and how it relates to pregnancy or what have you. Unless someone is willing to tell them, they cannot be held accountable for their actions and forced to endure even more pain as a result of what they've done. To put this in context and to prove my point further, think back to the first time you masturbated. AH! I see that look on your face Miles! It says, "ME?!?! I'M NOT A MASTURBATOR YOU VILE HEATHENISTIC WOMAN!!!" But I know you lie. I know. You don't have to own up to it; I'll understand. In general, children touch their own genitals from their earliest years, even as infants and toddlers. They do this out of curiosity and because it feels good. Have you ever seen a baby boy and baby girl having bathtime together? They examine each other out of curiosity. Imagine being a baby and never having seen genitals different from your own. It would be very disconcerting to suddenly realize, "Hey!!! His junk is different from mine! How come he's got that big lump of stuff on the outside??? Where's his v-a-g-i-n-a? (of course you wouldn't be familiar with the terminology but you get the idea...)" In much the same way, pre-teens begin exploring themselves when they reach the early years of puberty. This is scientific fact. Now then, back to your own personal experience... :) do you recall being aware of what you were doing when you first began doing it? (It's okay, you don't have to respond. Just ask yourself this question.) Did you wake up one day at the age of 12 and go, "Hey I think I'll start masturbating now!" I sincerely doubt it, and this would not be unusual. Most youths have no idea what they are doing when they first start, they just know it feels nice. Personally, I... THINK I started around 11 or so... that sounds about right... and I remember thinking how strange it was, and wondering if I should share this newfound knowledge with anyone. I didn't... Of course I was embarrassed about it, because I felt completely alone in this experience. It was something that no one had ever told me about, and I came to the conclusion that because no one had told me about it, they must either 1) Not know about it themselves or 2) Must think it's dirty and bad. Later on, I acquired a name to place on the activity I had been doing for over a year. I struggled to understand this healthy part of sexual development for much of the time I spent as a member of the Christian church. Looking back on my early teenage years I am ANGRY to remember the days that I would lie in bed after having touched myself and cry because I thought that God would hate me for it. I remember times when I tried to make myself stop because I believed the lies they told me at church about it being wrong. And I always felt ashamed and weak when I failed to stop doing it for more than a couple of weeks. Of course I didn't feel comfortable going to my parents or any adult about this problem, because I was terrified of being punished. As I grew older, I began to see through the lies of the church and to build my own moral understanding. There is nothing more freeing than suddenly realizing that what comes naturally to you is actually RIGHT. I think this is the closest to understanding what it is like to be gay that I will ever get, looking back on that period of fear and self-loathing. I think part of the reason I am so fired up to support my brothers and sisters of the LGBT community is because I can personally identify with this similar example of the same helplessness and fear they experience when living under the overpowering condemnation of religious fundamentalism and homophobia. But I'm getting more than a little off topic... I would love to continue that conversation in another thread. In fact I'll make one now. But back to what I was saying... It is perfectly possible, (and there are documented instances of this occuring, so my point is not entirely hypothetical in nature) for young teens to approach partner sex in just the same way that I, and probably you, and probably every other teenager on the planet, have approached masturbation. How then can you condemn them for this act when they were entirely oblivious to it's supposed "sinfulness?" You advocate sex ed programs based on fear and ignorance, and then you want to punish the poor victims of this horrible excuse for an education program with the responsibility of carrying a baby to term, and then giving birth to it. NO 11 YEAR OLD GIRL SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE THROUGH THIS TORTURE. That's what it is, torture. Finally, I stand by what I said. I don't like abortion. I think it is sad and is the result of what happens when the system has failed the woman in question. No woman, NO WOMAN, wants to have an abortion. When it finally comes to that, it is either because she was not properly educated on how to protect herself during sex, was not allowed the products to employ that knowledge, or because she was afraid to ask for help and guidance. I refuse to believe that any woman hops into bed thinking, "Oh, no worries! If I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion!" If any woman DOES think this, it is because she does not fully comprehend what it means to have an abortion, and does not understand what a painful (not necessarily physical, but emotional pain) experience it is.
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Apr 12, 2006 10:53:31 GMT -5
That depends. Should drunk driving classes be abstinence only while driving or how to drive safely while legally drunk? Same concept different topic.
I don't see any biblical mandate where it's a sin to practice contraception...it's the type of contraception. Barrier methods (condoms) and natural family planning (Taking temp and monitoring bodily changes for signs of ovulation/fertility) are okay. Why? Because they don't destroy a life, they are preventing contraception. All hormone contraception has abortificiaent aspects to it (can cause abortions).
I'm personally not familiar with the programs so I can't comment.
The only sin that is unforgivable is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's another subject for another thread. All sins are forgivable provided the sinner has thrown him/herself on the mercy of a blood stained cross and repented of that sin and surrendered their life to Christ.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 12, 2006 23:32:50 GMT -5
That depends. Should drunk driving classes be abstinence only while driving or how to drive safely while legally drunk? Same concept different topic. Well, in the arena of drinking: We can teach people that drinking is wrong, and that the only way to avoid dying or killing someone in a car crash is not to drink. Period. Maybe that will deter people from drinking, but I imagine that most people will end up drinking, they will at some point be put in the situation where they are going to a bar and they drive there. Once drunk, they realize that the only way to avoid the bad consequences is not to drink, but they've already done that, so they drive home, perhaps killing someone. Whereas if they had been educated on the alternatives, a different outcome could have been presented. Alternatives: Take transit to the bar Walk to the bar Bring your alcohol home before consumption Wait for several hours before driving after your last drink Find a place to sleep Go to a restaurant and drink lots of water and coffee, while waiting on the effects to subside Have a friend be a designated driver. Other things as well. The problem with abstinence only education is that once people make the decision to not be absitinent, they are unaware of other methods to prevent pregnancies and STI's. For young people, I will argue that abstinence is the best option, but some people will not remain abstinent regardless of the education they recieve.
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Post by Jules on Apr 14, 2006 19:24:24 GMT -5
Morluna, you said "You and I both agree that abortion is bad, but tell me this: Would you prefer to make abortion illegal and revert back to the days of illegal "back door" abortions using coathangers; a horribly unsanitary, unprofessional, and unsafe practice that lead to the death and sickness of many women up until the 1960s?
This is exactly what will happen if abortion is made illegal again. People are not going to stop having them, they are simply going to return to unsanitary, dangerous, and hurtful methods of having them.
I say that if a woman chooses to have an abortion, she should be able to seek out a healthy and medically sound mode of doing so."
Abortion is murder, and is sin. Making it legal does not change the fact that it is sin. It should be made illegal, and chidren taught abstinance until marriage, the way God intended. Then, if they choose to sin by having sex outside of marriage, and get pregnant, like with all sin, there are consequences. Making the consequences more "comforatble" or "safe" does nothing to help the situation except to imlpy we have changed our standard of what is right and wrong. The sinful desires of people then become the law, and this is what has happened. That is why it is critical that people realize GOD'S LAW is the authority and our standard which does not change. If you remove the authority of God from the law and turn into "social morality" this social morality will continue to downgrade, change, and alter according to society. THis is why the mass murder of babies is going on today. Society is in a downgrade, and people are arguing "morality" instead of teaching God's law.
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Post by elwing96 on May 1, 2006 20:53:05 GMT -5
What happens when the fetus is aborted naturally (ie miscarriage)? Is the mother guilty of murder? Is just her body to blame since it wasn't a concious decision?
I would like this to be treated as a SERIOUS question, since it is something that I have wondered about for a while.
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Post by hopefulheart on May 1, 2006 21:09:11 GMT -5
Hmm... never gave much thought to the use of those contraceptives as being similar to abortion. But it really is the same thing, isn't it? A fertilized zygote is aborted. Thank you for that new outlook.
I wonder.... is masturbation the destruction of half-lives? I may need to look over my views on the starting point of life.
Elwing, to me, murder and killing are intentional acts. If we say that natural miscarriages are sin, where do we draw the line?
Scenario: A woman lives right, lives proper, does Everything in her power to be healthy. Gets pregnant. Something completely out of her power happens and she loses the baby. She sins even then? When do we say that it's murder and when do we say it's "God's will," then?
I think we can take the lesson from Job for this one: Bad things happen, even to good people. Any other takes on that?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 1, 2006 23:09:05 GMT -5
I think we can take the lesson from Job for this one: Bad things happen, even to good people. Any other takes on that? Well a take on the Job thingy is that God enjoys toying with people.
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Post by hopefulheart on May 1, 2006 23:41:13 GMT -5
Where does it say anything about God toying with people?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 2, 2006 0:40:12 GMT -5
Where does it say anything about God toying with people? Job, there's an entire book.
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Post by hopefulheart on May 2, 2006 0:58:44 GMT -5
He wasn't toying with Job - he was proving a point. Though that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
From a non-"the Bible is literal word-for-word" perspective, the story of Job was developed to explain why bad things happen to good people. It was a hard concept for people to accept... a hard concept for many people to accept period, in fact.
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Post by salvationisnow on May 2, 2006 18:56:33 GMT -5
What happens when the fetus is aborted naturally (ie miscarriage)? Is the mother guilty of murder? Is just her body to blame since it wasn't a concious decision? I would like this to be treated as a SERIOUS question, since it is something that I have wondered about for a while. I think that what you describe is slightly different from making an appointment, going into having a life terminated. In the case of the miscarriage it is not a sin...there is premeditation in a abortion, premeditation is murder.
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Post by elwing96 on May 2, 2006 21:42:25 GMT -5
Would anyone take the line: God is punishing her for past sins?
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Post by hopefulheart on May 3, 2006 10:43:10 GMT -5
No, I wouldn't. Again, the book of Job. Bad things happen to good people, no matter how good they are. That's life. Free will.
That sounds like karma, which I kinda despise. At best case it blurs the line between itself and the lesson of Job. Meaning, would you draw that distinction between the two?
Would you draw it at all? Well, in a world of all karma, think of all the things that people 'deserved' to happen to them. You've then justified everything, too, including murder and abortion.
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Post by ejuliot on May 3, 2006 14:51:11 GMT -5
Would anyone take the line: God is punishing her for past sins? I know that God punishes the wicked (read the old testament and Acts (Ananias and Sapphira), BUT I would not go as far to say that every miscarriage is due to sin.
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 15:10:55 GMT -5
here is your friendly agnostic to give you a little biblical knowledge. god did punish people for previous sins, up to four or five generations as is stated in: Exodus 20:5; and then eradicated it by Ezekiel 18:20 which basically says that a son will not share the guilt of the father. fun stuff. i see this as god changing, but i am sure the kids her at open air have a good excuse.
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Post by cervyy on May 3, 2006 21:36:49 GMT -5
They always have an excuse ... excuses, excuses!!
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Post by dmclayton on May 4, 2006 7:58:43 GMT -5
what i want to know is what other excuse should i believe when it comes to the fact that men created religion to control other men--men weaker than themselves. this is also used by governments. they will use, or create, religions to control the masses. sadly, theocracy works because there are so many sheep...
...numbers of believers have little to do with the truth.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:28:53 GMT -5
Well, trekky, it's simply fact, whether a Christian, athesit or RCC wants to concede it or not....you and I both know that there is no death in the "pill".....there is a preventative means, given by God I might add, that PREVENTS conception, not destroys it.
You see, the pill is God's remedy against abortion.
Abortionists kill while God provides the means to PREVENT.
This is medical fact and undisputed.
It's just fact.
I can;t flow with you on this one ejuoliot, because your's is opnion based on a fallacy of a sort which I have never even heard of until this thread.
I did not know anyone existed who believed the pill killed a child.
I'm not being sarcastic, only serious.
Who told you this and what documentation did they provide?
Certainly not medical.
Certainly not Biblical.
Certainly not scientific.
So...where di you receive your opinion?
I'm curious to know
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Post by victorialewis on May 9, 2006 19:43:26 GMT -5
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:52:53 GMT -5
Would anyone take the line: God is punishing her for past sins? ABSOLUTELY NOT. God does not punish for sins that have been confessed and repented from. Even the consequences of our sin are under His grace, and he works them out for his glory as well. If the sin is unconfessed and there is no repentance, judgment will come, and punishment will come, eventually. But the timing of this is entirely up to God. After all it is against Him we have sinned.
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:55:41 GMT -5
Well, trekky, it's simply fact, whether a Christian, athesit or RCC wants to concede it or not....you and I both know that there is no death in the "pill".....there is a preventative means, given by God I might add, that PREVENTS conception, not destroys it. You see, the pill is God's remedy against abortion. Abortionists kill while God provides the means to PREVENT. This is medical fact and undisputed. It's just fact. I can;t flow with you on this one ejuoliot, because your's is opnion based on a fallacy of a sort which I have never even heard of until this thread. I did not know anyone existed who believed the pill killed a child. I'm not being sarcastic, only serious. Who told you this and what documentation did they provide? Certainly not medical. Certainly not Biblical. Certainly not scientific. So...where di you receive your opinion? I'm curious to know I answered this in the otehr thread, I think in the doctrine section? The pill does cause abortion in some cases, and it is medically documented. It is one of the greatest deceptions to women everywhere, and it doesn't surprise me you didn't know the truth. But, now you do. What you do with it is up to you. God's remedy for abortion is healing. Not the pill. The prevention of abortion is knowing the truth, which almost no woman knows when she walks into an abortion clinic.
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:57:29 GMT -5
prevention, by the way, is simply a worldy term for interfering with God's purposes. God already gave us natural means to "control" our childbearing, it's called the monthly cycle and self discipline. Beyond that, we have taken matters into our own hands. Like with everything else, we warp what God created as pure and turn into something of the flesh.
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