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Post by dmclayton on Apr 22, 2006 20:58:22 GMT -5
this is a controversial topic. there is death in the old testament, and make no mistake about it its something that christians fail to, or refuse to, explain. god has commanded the death of peoples who have sinned in his eyes, and prophets relay messages to the people who then raid, sack and rape villages and cities of everything: the lives of men, women, children, unborn babies, livestock, crops, and even their riches.
why is murder justified in god's name?
however, and this is part ii so you do not have to answer it if you so wish, in recent times people who committ crimes in the name of god are rebuked by their brethern--not a few, but every single person who claims to have murdered in the name of god is dismissed as crazy, possessed, etc.
why is it different now, yet acceptable then? ...is this is not evidence that god's character changes?
by what means is it or is it not so? why? explain.
(should you need evidence of all this murder [everything from abortion to rape] i have more than fifty verses available and ready. simply email me. i will not post it on here.)
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 24, 2006 17:18:07 GMT -5
i see that two days have passed and there has yet to be a response. interesting...
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Post by Jules on Apr 24, 2006 22:51:28 GMT -5
yeah, interesting. especially since it is an easy answer
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Post by wkufan on May 1, 2006 20:32:57 GMT -5
this is a controversial topic. there is death in the old testament, and make no mistake about it its something that christians fail to, or refuse to, explain. god has commanded the death of peoples who have sinned in his eyes, and prophets relay messages to the people who then raid, sack and rape villages and cities of everything: the lives of men, women, children, unborn babies, livestock, crops, and even their riches. why is murder justified in god's name? however, and this is part ii so you do not have to answer it if you so wish, in recent times people who committ crimes in the name of god are rebuked by their brethern--not a few, but every single person who claims to have murdered in the name of god is dismissed as crazy, possessed, etc. why is it different now, yet acceptable then? ...is this is not evidence that god's character changes? by what means is it or is it not so? why? explain. (should you need evidence of all this murder [everything from abortion to rape] i have more than fifty verses available and ready. simply email me. i will not post it on here.) God hates sin. What you describe as murder is God's judgment. God's character has not changed. We are under a period of Grace thanks be to Christ. However, if one is a sinner and not repented, turned from sins and trusted Christ, they too will be the subject of God's judgment and wrath. God will not tolerate sin. Make no mistake about it.
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Post by dmclayton on May 1, 2006 22:54:19 GMT -5
you presuppose that god exists so naturally you are going to defend him. however, even when i presuppose that he exists i still see him as an evil, tyrannical bastard. my question is, and i did not include it in my original post, but how can god give people 'free will' if he is killing them? how will people come to know god, or god through christ, if they are dead at the hands of an angry god--through crazy people?
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Post by evanschaible on May 2, 2006 17:30:10 GMT -5
Well mister clayton, One day your filthy, rotten, no good, blasphemeing will catch up to you. Repent!
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Post by dmclayton on May 2, 2006 17:52:37 GMT -5
thank god i have the free will to curse him.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 2, 2006 17:58:15 GMT -5
There was capital punishment in the Old Testament and I'd say that capital punishment is still an act of justice in our modern day which is to be imparted by God's established authority which is the government. God has always been against the sheding of innocent blood but has always called for the blood of the guilty, either in this life or in the next, which is justice.
I am strongly against the average Christian killing abortion doctors etc because it is not their place. They are taking the law into their own hands. The government is God's established authority and they are the ones who ought to be putting these men to death.
I am curious as to which moral code you are trying to use to condemn God. Where does this moral code come from and on what grounds does it have authority at all?
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 19:08:32 GMT -5
You're evil, Clayton.
You should take up a hobby...like Bible study!
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Post by Jules on May 2, 2006 19:13:21 GMT -5
thank god i have the free will to curse him. yeah...you should look at it like that, because He did give you free will, even to reject him. He is no tyrant as you suggest, or He would MAKE you serve and worship Him. You want your cake and to eat it to (i.e. free will AND a perfect world) We sacrifice perfection at the expense of our ability to choose. When we surrender this free will to the Lord,then we obtain perfection - in Christ, in reality, in eternity. But thank God as well that He will pour out His wrath on His enemies. Sounds like you are one of them. I'll see you on judgment day. You've been warned.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 2, 2006 19:18:53 GMT -5
God has not given anyone free will to curse Him. God has given men free will to love Him. The intention of free will was not so man could do wrong but so that man could do right of his own free will. God does not want zombes or robots or puppets. God wants willing servants, men who will sell themselves into the slavery of the Kingdom of God just in order to serve the King.
I have sold myself into that Kingdom slavery. I'd rather be a slave in God's Kingdom then a master in the devils.
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Post by Jules on May 2, 2006 19:52:57 GMT -5
AMEN Jesse! Preach on brother...
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Post by Morluna on May 2, 2006 20:18:05 GMT -5
So? That doesn't make it okay... there was also slavery in the Old Testament. Do you suggest we start rounding up the darkies and carting them back off to the plantation?
Wouldn't want 'em gettin' upitty...
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Post by valentine on May 2, 2006 20:23:35 GMT -5
I'd rather be a slave in God's Kingdom then a master in the devils. "...better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." --Lucifer, Paradise LostPersonally, it sounds to me like he had the right idea. Yes, I'm still campaigning for Head Heathen.
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Post by Morluna on May 2, 2006 20:26:18 GMT -5
I LOVE Lucifer in Paradise Lost... I always felt so sorry him... he was just trying to make it... but noooo Tha Man had to get him down.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 2, 2006 20:31:07 GMT -5
I do not see how one could get the word "reign" out of the word "burn".
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Post by Morluna on May 2, 2006 20:39:03 GMT -5
I do not see how one could get the word "reign" out of the word "burn". I dunno. Ask Milton.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 2, 2006 21:22:16 GMT -5
Oh yes. Poor old Lucifer. How sad and misunderstood he was. I mean really, who WOULDN'T want to have a throne higher than God? It wasn't HIS fault that he became so prideful of his beauty. We need to empathize with him and his selfish cause of rallying a third of the angelic host in his arrogance to become better than his Creator. It was because His creator didn't hug him enough that he decieved Eve in the Garden! Yes. Poor, poor Lucifer.
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Post by valentine on May 2, 2006 21:34:21 GMT -5
I do not see how one could get the word "reign" out of the word "burn". Jesse also said: I think you can get it right there. PS: My inner English major weeps for the abuse of my fair language. THEN=/=THAN. DEVILS=/=DEVIL'S. What the freck does "that Kingdom slavery" mean?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 3, 2006 0:29:52 GMT -5
Oh yes. Poor old Lucifer. How sad and misunderstood he was. I mean really, who WOULDN'T want to have a throne higher than God? It wasn't HIS fault that he became so prideful of his beauty. We need to empathize with him and his selfish cause of rallying a third of the angelic host in his arrogance to become better than his Creator. It was because His creator didn't hug him enough that he decieved Eve in the Garden! Yes. Poor, poor Lucifer. Have you read Paradise Lost? Dante's Inferno? I recommend them.
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 2:15:27 GMT -5
You're evil, Clayton. You should take up a hobby...like Bible study! actually, i do study the bible. i have studied christianity--independently--for ten years now, and am currently enrolled at the university of alabama as a religious studies major. in fact, i think it would be safe the say that i study the bible more than you, or any other christian on this site. i read the bible on a regular, daily basis and am still a happy agnostic. my 'expertise' is research of fundamentalism and extremism in christianity and its inclusion in american politics. so, mr. thumper, is there anything else you would like to assume about me, or tell me i should do?
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 2:21:27 GMT -5
God has given men free will to love Him. The intention of free will was not so man could do wrong but so that man could do right of his own free will. God does not want zombes or robots or puppets. God wants willing servants, men who will sell themselves into the slavery of the Kingdom of God just in order to serve the King. I have sold myself into that Kingdom slavery. I'd rather be a slave in God's Kingdom then a master in the devils. Ironically, you said god does not want zombies, robots or puppets...although you claim to be a slave to god's kingdom. also, if god gives man the free will to love them then there is also a free will to reject him. this is true free will. free will cannot be 'love me only' otherwise its forced upon you. free will is the ability to choose between two things (or more, but in this case two): the two things being accepting or rejecting christ. i choose to reject christ. somehow, praising god for eternity doesn't seem like a reward to me...
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Post by hopefulheart on May 3, 2006 10:37:53 GMT -5
I just look at the 10 Commandments, as others here do...
"Thou shalt not kill."
Period. No 'unless,' no 'except in the case of.' Thou shalt not kill. God doesn't need people to pass judgement for Him...
Holy War is the utmost sign of evil in religion.
The end never justifies the means, wether you like it or not. However, there comes a point when you have to accept your mortality and make decisions that are from the flesh rather than the heart. By accepting this mortality and still working for a better way, however, I think (to steal the buzzword of the day, since I doubt I'm 'allowed' to use it, myself) repenting would come into play here.
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Post by Morluna on May 3, 2006 11:04:54 GMT -5
Oh yes. Poor old Lucifer. How sad and misunderstood he was. I mean really, who WOULDN'T want to have a throne higher than God? It wasn't HIS fault that he became so prideful of his beauty. We need to empathize with him and his selfish cause of rallying a third of the angelic host in his arrogance to become better than his Creator. It was because His creator didn't hug him enough that he decieved Eve in the Garden! Yes. Poor, poor Lucifer. Have you read Paradise Lost? Dante's Inferno? I recommend them. Obviously he hasn't because he entirely missed the point that I was referring to Lucifer in Paradise Lost and not the accepted view of him in the Bible and Christian traditional views.
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 11:33:59 GMT -5
You're evil, Clayton. You should take up a hobby...like Bible study! actually, i do study the bible. i have studied christianity--independently--for ten years now, and am currently enrolled at the university of alabama as a religious studies major. in fact, i think it would be safe the say that i study the bible more than you, or any other christian on this site. i read the bible on a regular, daily basis and am still a happy agnostic. my 'expertise' is research of fundamentalism and extremism in christianity and its inclusion in american politics. so, mr. thumper, is there anything else you would like to assume about me, or tell me i should do? my my, what arrogance and pride. You don't know anything about anyone on this board, so quit assuming clayton. The problem is, you are an unregenerate reading the Word of God, (that is, if you aren't lying about how often you read it) so you can read it all day every day until the day you die, and unless you repent, it is all foolishness. My ten minutes in the Spirit humbled before a holy God is more profitable than your hours upon hours in your pride and arrogance. (and btw, I do read more than 10 min a day of course) So why do you still read? The Pharisees and teachers of the law knew the law and scriptures backwards and forwards, and they STILL were condemend by Jesus as a brood of vipers, whitewashed tombs, and hypocrites. Your "knowledge" of the Bible will get you no where but the lake of fire unless you repent.
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 11:37:32 GMT -5
I just look at the 10 Commandments, as others here do... By accepting this mortality and still working for a better way, however, I think (to steal the buzzword of the day, since I doubt I'm 'allowed' to use it, myself) repenting would come into play here. wow, hopeful, I am now hopeful as well. God is granting you a willing spirit and opening your eyes. PRaise God! I think the buzzword of Repent isn't just for the day, it is for a lifetime Repentance is important because it is what indicates a true faith. I wuld think even non-Christians would want to see that. Aren't you guys tired of hypocrites? Well, the reason they are hypocrites is because they also have not repented. It isn't just a word for non-believers. I don't know why everyone on this board dislikes it so much. It works "against" us as believers as well. We are accountable for our actions just as much as you guys are. But we won't be taking the punishment for our sins, we WANT to repent, and it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to stop sinning, through faith in Christ. We all need to repent!!!
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 11:49:44 GMT -5
pride? sure. arrogance? why not? the truth of the matter is that i was only pointing out that it is pathetic, by any means, for a nonbeliever to be more educated in one's religion than the believer. also, i think the word you were seeking was 'degenerate.' i do not think 'unregenerate' is a word, but i could be wrong. sure, i am a degenerate... ...as i have stated above, i would much rather be a degenerate than sitting at the right side of god. i have something to live for as a degenerate in this world. a christian has to live for death, and a hope of something afterwards. i don't give a hoot if there is something after death, so i will not be disappointed even if i spend eternity in hell. i will take what i can get in life, and death.
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 11:50:44 GMT -5
surely, it is my decision to reject christ?
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 12:56:12 GMT -5
yup, it sure is. it is the unpardonable sin. the only one unable to be forgiven because it is the rejection of the atonement, provision, redemption and work of the Cross.
you're a fool, dmclayton, because you mock God and His grace. I doubt your words of not being disappointed when you even come into the presence of Holy God, much less see your punishment for mocking His Name.
I would rather die to this life and all its folly with hope (certainty) of being in the presence of God eternally, than to trample the blood of Christ underfoot and remain under the wrath of my Creator.
You're attitude is the reason for the bowl judgments in Revelation. Maybe you should stick to Revelation in your religion studies. It's what your future holds.
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 12:59:46 GMT -5
un·re·gen·er·ate adj.
Not spiritually renewed or reformed; not repentant. Sinful; dissolute.
Not reconciled to change; unreconstructed. Stubborn; obstinate.
de·gen·er·ate adj. Having declined, as in function or nature, from a former or original state: Having fallen to an inferior or undesirable state, especially in mental or moral qualities.
You are UNREGENERATE because you never were at a state that was desirable before God. You never have repented. You have never fallen, or declined, because you have always been in sin.
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