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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 5, 2009 10:52:38 GMT -5
Some people have expressed concerns over open theism. I wouldn't be concerned about the open view. It is consistent with reason and Scripture. I used to hold to the eternal foreknowledge view, but as I studied it further, I found it to be inconsistent with reason and scripture. I would be concerned with, not the open view, but the Calvinist or Arminian view.
In the Calvinist view, God predestines all events and therefore foreknows all events. This makes God responsible for all sin. This should concern us.
In the Arminian view, God foreknows all events but does not predestine all events. If God foreknew all events from all of eternity, He couldn't predestine anything at all, because everything would already be settled and certain. This makes God powerless. This should concern us.
In the Open View, God has a free will and therefore the future has open possibilities for Him to choose between. God chooses to predestine some things and He chooses to allow us to determine some things. Whatever He predetermines is certain, whatever He lets us determine is uncertain until we determine it. Thus the future is partly open and partly settled. This accounts for the Biblical passages that affirm a certainty about the future and the passages that affirm an uncertainty about the future. Both are true.
Anyways, I wouldn't be concerned about the open view. It frees God from the responsibility of exhaustive predestination, and it liberates God from the fate of eternal foreknowledge. It allows God to have a free will and man to have a free will.
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Post by debonnaire on Mar 5, 2009 15:21:57 GMT -5
Jesse,
About the Open view , you say that It frees God from the responsibility of exhaustive predestination, and it liberates God from the fate of eternal foreknowledge.
Is it a figure of speech (for lack of better words to express this view), or do you really think that God has to br free from the 'burden' of exhaustive predestination and eternal knowledge ?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 5, 2009 21:23:09 GMT -5
The problem with exhaustive predestination is that it makes God the cause of sin.
The problem with eternal foreknowledge is that it makes God a helpless, powerless, observer.
Surely these are problems, or burdens, that our ideas of God should liberate Him from.
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 5, 2009 22:31:36 GMT -5
If God is the Creator, absolute foreknowledge could not exist. To create is to originate. If all that is, has always been known as inevitable and never originated in the mind of God, it was not created. No Originator, no Creator, no God, period. Absolute foreknowledge is a myth.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Mar 6, 2009 13:06:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure we really understand God and His limitations.
To suggest that absolute foreknowledge is a myth, rather than truth, or that it is even possible, seems a bit presumtuous.
I'm OK with not knowing how God can KNOW the end, from the beginning. That He does, somehow, may baffle me, but it is not outside the possibility of it being true. I'm not even sure about "time".
I'm not even sure how we live "IN" Him and have our being. He reasonably, MUST live in a "state" outside of time itself.
Such existence is, for now, for me, outside of my ability to comprehend. Such thoughts are "too high" for me.
But, this does not discomfit me, because This reality that He defines and is creating, has created and will create, has its source in Him. It does not bother me that God "caused" sin, because He may have had purpose for evil. It also implies that He has foreseen the salvation and the restoration, or reconciliation, of all things.
One thing I think I know! And that is that GOD MUST BE AMAZING if it takes an eternity to get to know Him! Can you imagine?
Probably not.
What He is doing is outside of even our imaginations!
peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 6, 2009 16:05:19 GMT -5
If this is true, exhaustive foreknowledge is indeed a myth. To be completely honest, even Calvinism is incompatible with exhaustive foreknowledge if exhaustive causation is assigned to God. For God to cause anything, He would have to originate the cause. If He does not originate the cause, and it is co-eternal with Him and He caused or created nothing. Any causation theory, whether exhaustive or responsive assumes origination apart from exhaustive/absolute foreknowledge.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Mar 6, 2009 16:27:27 GMT -5
Your quote of me was in mid sentence?
Reality is defined and "caused" by God.
Do you disagree?
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Post by dmatic on Mar 6, 2009 16:29:24 GMT -5
Maybe I misunderstand your objections joe.
I start with Genesis 1:1....In the beginning....God
Peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 6, 2009 23:38:39 GMT -5
Your quote of me was in mid sentence? Reality is defined and "caused" by God. Do you disagree? Our present reality, absolutely. He is uncaused, so the reality of His existence is defined by His eternal existence as the uncaused, cause of our present reality. I think so. As do I. Exhaustive foreknowledge starts, "In the beginning, God's knowledge of all that ever will be". Gen 1:1 starts with God and goes directly into the creation, decrees and decisions of God. Exhaustive foreknowledge would not permit God to make a decision or create anything. Just as the hyper-Calvinist would attribute everything they do to causation, God would be free to do nothing other than that which His co-eternal foreknowledge had already determine. In other words, He would be in the category of the caused rather than being the cause. Make sense? Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Mar 11, 2009 14:27:37 GMT -5
joe asked: "Make sense?"
Probably, but you're not dealing with a rocket scientist here!
So, do think God knows the outcome of a game of basketball before it begins?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 12, 2009 14:00:09 GMT -5
joe asked: "Make sense?" Probably, but you're not dealing with a rocket scientist here! So, do think God knows the outcome of a game of basketball before it begins? Peace, dmatic General foreknowledge assumes God sees things as they are coming while exhaustive foreknowledge says He knows all things as having already come to pass. I believe He can see what is coming in the game by His exhaustive present knowledge and accurately predict the future. At the same time, He can intervene and alter what would otherwise be the inevitable outcome, should He decide to do so. He also understands that the probable exist hand in hand with the possible, and knows that the unlikely can occur even if it is in fact, unlikely. Blessings, Joe
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Post by dmatic on Mar 12, 2009 17:18:31 GMT -5
joe wrote: "I believe He can see what is coming in the game by His exhaustive present knowledge and accurately predict the future. "
How far into the future? Would His "predictions" be prophetic, or just "predictions" that may or may not be right?
You've obviously studied this....and it may appear that this topic is just too high for me, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss it. Where did you get such information?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by joemccowan on Mar 12, 2009 21:34:09 GMT -5
It can be both.
Have you ever noticed how you find references in the NT that say a particular OT prophesy was being fulfilled, when you would have never put the two together otherwise. God is actively fulfilling prophecies, often in creative and unexpected ways. Other times He expresses disgust that things go entirely different than He expected or intended.
The "how far into future" is the key. Think of it as millions of possibilities being perpetually narrowed down until the possibilities give way to a certainty. The closer to the event, the more accurate the prediction. If God chooses to intervene, He can alter circumstances to make His desired outcome a greater possibility without forcing the event to come to pass. This demonstrates the genius of God's prophecies, which is far more impressive than simply knowing the future.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by pete777 on Apr 3, 2009 1:47:29 GMT -5
Open Theism,
First I want to say that the doctrine of Open Theism is false and should be exposed with every fiber of Christian love.
This doctrine came about in the 5th century in the writings of Calcidius, a 5th-century interpreter of Plato. This doctrine is Satan's attempt to cast doubt on "predictive prophecy" and is an attack against the "Remnant Church" of Rev 12:17. Satan hates this church because they expose his plans from the vantage point of prophecy. The only Church called by God to do this, as all other churches are certified members of Babylon, due to such confusion in their doctrine and teaching as evidenced by "Open Theism" et al...
The doctrine destroys several things that God has set up:
1) Omnipotence – God has all power, which includes complete sovereignty over all things.
2) Omniscience – God has all knowledge, including all past, present, and future.
3) Omnipresence – God is everywhere, or alternatively God is above the concept of space.
The one reason the Open Theists do not accept the plain and clear teachings of the Word of God is that they loose thier "self empowerment." Self has to die to become a Christian! But not with Open Theists! Self has the wisdom and might and power to make decisions concerning the future!
Self is the god of Open Theists! They give mouth service to God, but in heart they want to retain the power to do what they want for God according to their own intellect! They serve God on their terms, and according to thier plans! They do not submit to the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. This is the "secret" or result of this doctrine. The adherents to this doctrine on most cases do not have a clue to this! They do not have a full understanding to the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Rev 14:6, the everlasting Gospel has not even gone out yet, so how could they?
Satan fell in heaven because he thought he could improve on God's government! He thought because of his power of wisdom, and because of his beauty that he could be a "free moral agent" without the constraints of God's Law! He choose to be free and "do it yourself" became his standard of life!
Satan was kicked out of heaven for this treason and blasphemy! He was labeled a sinner and justly so! Open Theism is nothing more than L. Ron Hubbard Dianetics and reworded "Scientology! It is the Robert Schuler gospel of "Self Empowerment" and the Free Mason gospel of "man can become god."
Open Theism is worse for it incorporates all of these wicked doctrines in cleaver language that seems like an improvement on theological understandioing of God, but in reality it strips God of His power, truth, and authority! It then takes the authority of God and subtlety (snake like) places it in the hands of man!
If God is not all wise, then man is! This is the SECRET, the under the cover teaching of this Masonic falsehood!
The wisdom of man is satanic hatred against God! It is blasphemy of the highest order! Man's reason has no place in the Biblical thought model, or theology! We are to live by every word of God (Deut 8:3). We are not to live by the false theories that man creates by the power of the fallen angel! We are to go to the WORD and see for ourselves the truth with the complete aid and help of the Holy Spirit!
Open Theism does not do this! This theory is a view of God through the eyes of sinful, erring, fallen, carnal man! The wisdom of God is foolishness with man! The wisdom of man is blasphemy according to the Bible! Reason and logic are weapons of Satan to destroy the Word of God!
Open Theism teaches that our prayers can change God's will! It can change the future! This is not true! God does answer prayer, but if you understood even the basics on prayer, then you would know that the Holy Spirit is the one that prompts (gives us a cue) to our need of something so that we can remain in the will of God! Prayer never has and never will change God, but always has (when originated from the Holy Spirit's intercession) allowed man to continue in the divine plan for man called the gospel! Every man on earth is predestined to be saved, but every man has a right to reject this offer to be guided into a life of obedience! When the Holy Spirit comes to them and inspires them to pray and ask for forgiveness they just reject the offer! This does not change a thing! It is just evidence that they do not want to be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit, called righteousness. Rather, they enjoy the misery of satanic bondage and willful disobedience! They choose to reject the offer that was made to them! This does not change God! He knows what they would do from eternity! But to justify their damnation in hell fire, and to return them to the dust from which they came, He allows their choice to be made public on the record books of heaven (Mal 3:16, Dan 7:9-13).
We are on trial! Our decisions are not coerced! We are free to yield to the Holy Spirit or remain yielding to the unholy spirit of Satan! Our minds are not our own! When the Holy Spirit shows us something it is reality! Until He reveals something to us we are in darkness! Our prayers are inspired from God downward, not man upward! Man cannot pray! We are to be inspired to pray according to the offer of the Holy Spirit! Then when man prays it is merely man responding to the offer of God! Thus man can conform to God's will more fully, or he may choose to remain in wicked darkness! And God will in His mercy try to get man to yield to the Spirit of Sanity, and break the hold of delusion that is upon him!
Man is a slave of Satan! Our will power must be liberated from the power of Satan in order to make true decisions! This is the gospel offer of salvation! Open theism teaches (secretly, or as a consequence of its wicked logic) that our prayers change God and thus the future is open to our decisions! This is foolishness, and man's silly ignorant logic!
Prayer is an offer from God and when we accept that offer, we pray and that allows or gives God permission to do what He wants in our life! We do not change God! He is trying to change us into His image and will! But we can reject His offer and burn in hell one day for it! God is not a God of force! He does not force us to do anything! He does not force us to be saved! He just allows us to make decisions when the light shines in our path, and our choices are registered for good or bad, and the scales of judgment in heaven are tilted based on our responce to His gracious offer of salvation. If our decisions are always against God, then the scales of judgment are leaning towards hell fire and damnation one day in the future! But if we yield to His offer to conform to His will then we are tilting the scales to eternal life, based on the offer God has made to us!
We change nothing! We can accept or reject! But God knows what we will do even before we were created! He does not force our wills, He only gives us light, and how we respond to that light will determine what we want! Eternal life or eternal death!
This does not change God or the future! It just proves that God is not a God of force or coersion!
Malachi 3:6 God does not change! The future does not change! When God looks into the future He has seen every exacting detail! He has seen it from eternity past! He can predict it with absolute accuracy!
Open Theism is the "Self Esteem" doctrine of man becoming god! It is Lucerferian and implys that man has such capabilities that He is free to change God and the future! That God does not really know what He is doing, and that man is really in charge of God and the future based on our decisions! And it makes the predictive prophecy of the Bible of NONE EFFECT! Just as Satan would have it!
The Mark of the Beast is coming! If you do not have full faith in Bible Prophecy you will be lost! You will receive the Mark of the Beast! Because you allowed DOUBT of the Biblical record to come to the front in your religious life, you will ignore the testimony of God's word, due to your love of self and self-made wisdom, called the wisdom of man (Lucerferian light).
Open Theism is blasphemy! It is the way in which Satan is getting people to reject the Bible and Bible prophecy! It is making infidels and sceptics as it fruit! Reject it! It is wicked and from the bottomless pit!
This responce is not an attack on individuals! As some of the people that have accepted this pernicious teaching, I love dearly and believe that they will come out of Babylon one day! But this doctrine is so false and just another manifestation of "Self Esteem" and "self-wisdom" that it must be condemned!
Sincerly concerned,
Matthew Peters
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 3, 2009 7:14:20 GMT -5
The previous post is a perfect example of what most critiques of the Open View are. Take the time to read it and it will help you understand the validity of Open Theism and the absurdity of the attacks are which are raised against it. It is this sort of illogical/self-contradicting reasoning that brings people to the Open View in the first place. The post speaks for itself.
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Post by pete777 on Apr 3, 2009 7:18:39 GMT -5
Open Theism is doctrinal foolishness! It does not make sense and cannot be backed up by anything in the Bible! It is man's wisdom and nothing more! The Plato and other "Greek type" mentalities are just repackaged on the unsuspecting multitudes by the dark forces of the bottomless pit!
I will pray you can escape the snare of the enemy!
Praise God!
Matthew
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 3, 2009 7:55:51 GMT -5
Open Theism is doctrinal foolishness! It does not make sense and cannot be backed up by anything in the Bible! It is man's wisdom and nothing more! The Plato and other "Greek type" mentalities are just repackaged on the unsuspecting multitudes by the dark forces of the bottomless pit! I will pray you can escape the snare of the enemy! Praise God! Matthew Again, a charge based on ignorance. Classical Theism, your position, is the product of the Pythagoreans, Plato, Plotinus, Iamblichus and Augustine. I can and have demonstrated this time and again. ___________________________________________ Iamblichus’s view of the divine cosmos was accepted by Augustine and Boethius and made its way into the presuppositions that are identified as Classical Theism (as if there existed a universally accepted theistic position). In a fragment of Iamblichus' letter to Macedonius On Fate, he writes this; It is the life that is lived in accordance with intellect and that cleaves to the gods that we must train ourselves to live; for this is the only life which admits of the untrammeled authority of the soul, frees us from the bonds of necessity, and allows us to live a life no longer mortal, but one that is divine and filled by the will of the gods with divine benefits. This form of fatalism has become the basis for the way most people view God within the Christian community. As we find, and can demonstrate, where our theology has failed to accurately represent God and how He relates to His creation, the question becomes whether or not we are willing to be corrected. Unfortunately, the greatest defenders of Neoplatonic Fatalism are found within the Church. Iamblichus theorized that the Monad created all that will ever exists in our universe instantaneously. In other words, the Monad meticulously created the glass and all that which fills the glass, in its filled form. Everything within the glass, from order and position to experience, was exhaustively determined by this first cause. There is no freedom of the will, no real choices to be made, no present action of the first cause within the glass, only fate. Iamblichus believed that after the time came in which fate is finally realized, the glass is completely full, only then are we able to experience any measure of freedom. This freedom comes from enduring the inevitable and being absorbed into the Monad. The latter part of his theory, the henosis, or becoming a "god", has retained its influence in our day in cults ranging from the Mormons to the Hindus. The former part of his doctrine has found wider acceptance. The doctrine of inevitability or exhaustive determination removes God from His creation. The notion that God created the glass in its completed (filled) form is the basis for exhaustive foreknowledge. This reduces our lives to a television re-run, with no chance of present interaction with our Creator. Iamblichus, Augustine, Luther, Calvin and others, rightly concluded that a filled glass in the mind of God, is an unalterable glass. This is where the doctrine of exhaustive foreknowledge/exhaustive predestination leads us. As you can see, it derived from pagan philosophy, not from scripture. Of course, just because the philosophy was derived from pagans, that doesn't make it wrong. The fact that it contradicts scripture and reason makes it wrong. Open theism undermines the Neo-Platonic dogma that has become the basis for Western theology. The notion that God lives outside of time is not even accepted by rational Reformed theologians; Dr. John Frame of Reformed Theological Seminary notes, “…at present we may speak of consensus among theistic philosophers that God is in time.” Even Nicholas Wolterstorff agrees that the idea of divine timelessness is absurd. He goes on to agree with open theist in saying that Scripture portrays God as changing with respect to his knowledge, his memory, his planning, and his personal relations to us. When we decide to abandon the philosophies of the Pythagoreans, Plato, Plotinus, Iamblichus and Augustine, we have two choices. Either 1) God exists in time, forcing us to do His will, deciding what the future holds by way of determination or 2) God exists in time, allowing created beings to exercise their free will, and then responding appropriately. To quote Wolterstorff one more time; In Rights and Wrongs, an Interview with Nicholas Wolterstorff (former professor of philosophical theology at Yale University and president of the American Philosophical Association (Central Division) and of the Society of Christian Philosophers) No pastor should be ignorant of theology, for theology is the church’s systematic and critical expression of what it has to say about God. And no theologian should be ignorant of philosophy. For from the time of the church fathers onward, the reflections of theologians have been shaped by philosophical concepts and ways of thought--sometimes for good, sometimes for ill. A little philosophy is a bad thing, however. To my students who want to become theologians I say, be a theologian, honor the tradition of theology, don’t try to be an ersatz philosopher. But study enough philosophy to become surefooted in it. Otherwise you will be jumping on bandwagons that you ought to turn your back on and missing those that are going your direction. _____________________________________ Western Christianity jumped on the wrong bandwagon. The philosophy that Hartshorne deemed "Classical Theism" is not biblical theism. As far as the heresy charge, the open view agrees with Theism Simpliciter; God is a personal being, worthy of worship, self-existent, the free creator (ex nihilo) of all that is not God, separate from the world (and is immaterial), sustains the world, continually active in it, perfectly good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal. This definition is from H. P. Owen, a recognized authority on the topic, and it has become commonplace in the philosophical literature. "Classical Theism" (as it has become to be defined) adds immutability and impassibility to TS and redefines "timeless" as being "outside of time" instead of "everlasting". Standard Free-Will Theism denies that God is immutable and impassible, but retains the Neo-Platonic definition of "timeless". Open Free-Will Theism does not retain the Neo-Platonic definition of "timeless". Is Open Theism orthodox? Define Orthodox. If we look to the Orthodox Church, they have a 2000 year history of denying impassibility. Is Calvin orthodox? Obviously no Reformer was orthodox. The schism in the Catholic Church had been preceeded by other schisms. The Orthodox Church retained the historical positions and is really the only group that can claim apostolic orthodoxy. The Orthodox, along with Calvinists, rightly equate exhaustive foreknowoldege with exhaustive determiniation. The Orthodox historically have rejected both. Desert Fathers SERENUS: GOD forbid that we should admit that God has created anything which is substantially evil, as Scripture says "everything that God had made was very good." For if they were created by God such as they are now, or made for this purpose; viz., to occupy these positions of malice, and ever to be ready for the deception and ruin of men, we should in opposition to the view of the above quoted Scripture slander God as the Creator and author of evil, as having Himself formed utterly evil wills and natures, creating them for this very purpose; viz., that they might ever persist in their wickedness and never pass over to the feeling of a good will. The following reason then of this diversity is what we received from the tradition of the fathers, being drawn from the fount of Holy Scripture. THEODORE: Preserving then these distinctions clear and fixed, and knowing that there is nothing good except virtue alone, and nothing bad except sin alone and separation from God, let us now carefully consider whether God ever allows evil to be forced on his saints either by Himself or by some one else. And you will certainly find that this never happens. For another can never possibly force the evil of sin upon anyone, who does not consent and who resists, but only on one who admits it into himself through sloth and the corrupt desire of his heart. All this to say that the open view is an attempt to recover Biblical Theism by ridding our presuppositions of Neo-Platonic definitions of God. We can apply the law of first mention in the scriptures and see that; God exists in time, His will can be frustrated, He repents, has feelings, has emotions, responds to actions and prayers of men, can alter His course, is faithful and trustworthy, intervenes and appropriately responds to contingencies as they are realized. _____________________________________________________
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Post by manderson on Apr 3, 2009 8:51:55 GMT -5
I agree with Jesse's view on this subject. Our view is diffrent than others on this subject. It would be better to come up with a diffrent name for the subject. What do you think?
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Post by pete777 on Apr 3, 2009 16:24:36 GMT -5
Clasical Prophecy is based on comparing scripture with scripture as the Bible says to do! You follow the teaching of man, and your theology is therefore the product of man! I am sorry you are so confused on the issue, but just pray and seek God, and go to Him in prayer and He will show you the delusive trap you are caught in!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by pete777 on Apr 3, 2009 16:31:29 GMT -5
You cannot choose your own future! You are not GOD! God is God! You are not! You must choose His will for your life! You cannot choose to follow your own will! Let God be God, and stop trying to set up a different path to heaven! Jesus Christ said it and that is the way it is! You cannot change Him with sorry wisdom of man, called false theology! It will never happen! Open theoism is so silly, that when I was reading about it, I quickly saw how and why Satan came up with this wicked apostate teaching! It undermines the God of Bible Prophecy! You cannot trust the clear teachings of the WOrd of God on Bible Prophecy if you are an open Theist! You must reject the authority and power of God to predict the future with perfect accuracy! You inculcate DOUBT in the word just as Satan would have it!
REPENT! REPENT! REPENT! You sinner, and God will receive you back into His fold!
Blessings,
Matthew
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Post by boldforchrist on Apr 3, 2009 19:18:43 GMT -5
Again, a charge based on ignorance. Classical Theism, your position, is the product of the Pythagoreans, Plato, Plotinus, Iamblichus and Augustine. I can and have demonstrated this time and again.
________________________________ _____________________________________________________
[/quote
I hope I am not making myself look "ignorant" here Joe, but Open Theism says to me that God takes risks. That from these risk He makes mistakes. That He learns from His mistakes and ours. Therefore He makes errors in judgment from time to time.
I have not done the extensive study on Open Theism that you have, I don't think anyone on this planet has for that matter! But it does sound like it is making our God look like He is capable of way too many mistakes and therefore would make us lack confidence in Him.
Did you say that Calvinist follow Open Theism? Not sure if you did or just hint to that, but I don't believe that Open Theism is in line with the thinking of the Reformed Church.
I like what Jesse said about a month ago on this thread concerning Open Theism, that it is nothing to get to worked up about anyway.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 4, 2009 0:12:22 GMT -5
Takes risk, yes. Errors in judgment, no. Any time you allow another person to make a decision of any kind, you take the risk of allowing them to choose the wrong path. You also give them the opportunity to choose rightly. God allows such decisions to be made and He judges accordingly.
Again, God doesn't make mistakes, but He does make adjustments and responds to our mistakes.
Calvinism is nothing more than systematic fatalism. Recently, many reformed theologians have realized that Classical Theism is philosophically and logically incoherent, yet they know Open Theism undermines their most basic presuppositions. They end up trying to defend their doctrine without using Classical Theism and have failed miserably. This is the reason most Reformed theologians are committed to defending Classical Theism.
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rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Apr 4, 2009 15:07:24 GMT -5
pete, you write like a lunatic. You make all kinds of assertions, but give almost no reasoning behind your assertions. I guess that is why you write:
"Reason and logic are weapons of Satan to destroy the Word of God!"
What else would you use besides reason and logic to study the scriptures? The idea that I get from most Calvinists is that you can't exegete truth from the Bible, but that God has to give someone special revelation in order for them to understand God rightly. And only Calvinists have been chosen to receive that special revelation that can't be understood from the Bible.
So maybe you figure that if you make these unfounded, unreasonable, illogical assertions enough times, maybe God will choose to inject this special revelation into our minds and we will understand why the Bible does not mean what it seems to mean.
God gives every man the capacity to understand truth through reason and logic (Isa. 1:18). He gives the Bible to the whole world to reveal himself to all of us (Jn 20:31). And he gives his Spirit as a teacher to those who will humble themselves before God (John 14:26;16:13; I Cor. 2:10,13; I Jn 2:27).
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Post by boldforchrist on Apr 4, 2009 15:31:16 GMT -5
WHAT? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? You are very much misunderstanding Calvinism my friend!
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Post by boldforchrist on Apr 4, 2009 15:42:50 GMT -5
I would say that it is "logically incoherent" to see God, (The Creator and Sustainer of all life), as a god who has our best intentions at heart, but makes mistakes and regrets His decisions. Open Theism shows God as if He just got lucky in creation and that He can not sustain or control anything. I am sure that you do not see God in this manner, but in essence, this is what Open Theism is saying. Shane
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 4, 2009 23:21:27 GMT -5
I would say that it is "logically incoherent" to see God, (The Creator and Sustainer of all life), as a god who has our best intentions at heart, but makes mistakes and regrets His decisions. Open Theism shows God as if He just got lucky in creation and that He can not sustain or control anything. I am sure that you do not see God in this manner, but in essence, this is what Open Theism is saying. Shane You didn't address Open Theism, you just made sweeping accusations without reason. God regrets some of our decisions, because they are truly our decisions, not His. This is the very essence of the Open View. God allows free moral agents to make choices and responds accordingly. If mans decisions were all dictated by God, He would not regret any of those decisions (including rape, murder, molestation, idolatry, etc..) as they would all be His decisions, not ours. This is the essence of Classical Theism/Calvinism. In the Classical view, God makes sin inevitable.
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 5, 2009 1:29:53 GMT -5
If mans decisions were all dictated by God, ------------
Does not Open Theism in the spirit of its teachings, claim man in his knowledge or wisdom (knowledge applied is wisdom) can change God by our prayer?
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 5, 2009 13:42:50 GMT -5
If mans decisions were all dictated by God, ------------ Does not Open Theism in the spirit of its teachings, claim man in his knowledge or wisdom (knowledge applied is wisdom) can change God by our prayer? No. God is God, regardless of who prays what. God does not change. Does God change His mind? Yes. We can influence God through prayer, because He is "God with us". If God was not influenced by prayer, why bother?
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 5, 2009 16:12:33 GMT -5
Does not Open Theism in the spirit of its teachings, claim man in his knowledge or wisdom (knowledge applied is wisdom) can change God by our prayer? --------
Thank you for your answer
But my question was can man change God by our prayer?
The word change is the same thing as influence, is it not?
You then stated No, but stated we can influence God.
So You did agree with my question, but you stated No? but said Yes!
So forgive if I am confused by your answer, I am just trying to understand, in the light of this scripture.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 18:36:46 GMT -5
Faithbypower,
WOW! You nailed it on the head! To influence God is to get Him to accept "Your will" for a certain issue! That type of prayer is then in effect saying to God:
"I know best, I am all wise as well, I know what is best for me, now let me influence you according to my will."
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom , which God ordained before the world unto our glory: KJV
Wisdom was ordained before the CREATION of the world! We need to tap into that wisdom! We cannot influence God to change or even diverge from the slightest of what He has ordained for each one of us BEFORE THE CREATION of the world! Open Theism does not compute! Error in is error out!
Either God is all wise or He is not at all! There is no gray area! Open Theism is the creation of the gray area between truth and error! It is man’s opinions only and nothing more! Wisdom was ordained before the creation of the world! You cannot respond to this argument from an Open Theistic view!
PS Did you hear that cracking sound? That was a graven image getting busted up into pieces!
Tidings
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