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Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 18:41:53 GMT -5
Jeremiah 8:9
9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? KJV
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 18:53:34 GMT -5
We cannot change God, we can only bow down the proud heart of man and accept what He has for us! That wisdom is found in the Word of God! The Holy Spirit can give us wisdom!
1 Corinthians 12:8
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; KJV
The Holy Spirit is the only One that can help us understand Biblical truth! You do not have power of your own to do anything (John 15:5). Man is confused! The word must be opened by allowing it to explain itself! Open Theism does not make sence!
God is ALL KNOWING! He has seen into the future and knows with perfect certainty what our decisions will be before we make them! He give us the best opertunity to make that decision, and the light of His word has shined on us, but if sin is worshipped in the heart, the mind will reflect the decision! God allows man to make the bad decision, and it is recorded in heaven that the person rejected the light despite all God could do for them in showing them the truth!
This is why there are record books in heaven! To record all the wicked choices of man, and prove that God did not force a single person into their rejecting "HIS WILL FOR THEM" which was ans is a sin free life!
We are to accept God's will for us! Prayer is God's attempt to bring us into His "will" more perfectly! Our heaven inspired prayer is the Holy Spirit's intercession for us, to give God permission to bring us out of the darkness into the light! God is not a God of force! We must seek Him to have his will worked out in us! He will not do it automatically! We are to seek Him, and open our mind and heart for Him to work in us by the power of the Holy Spirit!
Tidings
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 5, 2009 20:46:59 GMT -5
Does not Open Theism in the spirit of its teachings, claim man in his knowledge or wisdom (knowledge applied is wisdom) can change God by our prayer? -------- Thank you for your answer But my question was can man change God by our prayer? The word change is the same thing as influence, is it not? You then stated No, but stated we can influence God. So You did agree with my question, but you stated No? but said Yes! So forgive if I am confused by your answer, I am just trying to understand, in the light of this scripture. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD Your question is baiting, using a false premise. Someone can be influenced and even change their mind, without changing who and what they are. To equate a change of mind with a change of identity or character is a false assumption/premise. Tidings, or Pete777, it is a cowardly thing to disguise your identity and make comments you can't back up. When men can't support their positions with reason, they become unreasonable. Blessings, Joe
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 21:06:17 GMT -5
Joe,
I love you brother! But the false premise is that you think you can change God! You think you can change the future!
You said you cannot change God, but you can influence Him!
According to who's will? God's or your own will!!!
God's will is eternal and you cannot influence or change it!
You are wrong and it is because Open Theists have espoused Open Theism as a means of controlling your own destiny while giving mouth service to God!
It is a false doctrine! God has seen the end from the beginning! You cannot now or ever change what He has seen! All you can do is bow the proud heart down in rightful submission and accept what He has for you!
This is the point I am trying to make about Open Theism! It is giving mouth service to God, but in reality makes God change the future based on the whims and desires and prayers of man!
Man can choose to obey God or not! It is as simple as that! You cannot change Him! DO not worry about the future! Just submit to God now and in time when you look back you will see a holier life, holiness in thought, and in action! The future is God's, just live for Him now and He will take care of your life!
Tidings!
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 5, 2009 21:29:26 GMT -5
Man's freewill is the simple chocie to obey God's eternal plan for you or not, and be lost! Freewill is used by the Open theist (OPEN-DEISM) to say that man has some wisdom outside of the gift of the Holy SPirit, to use in ordering his life according to his way of thinking! Freewill is not so! It is the choice to accept God or be lost! We are not forced to do either! Period! That is all freewill is! But the Open Deist believes that there is a God, call His name Jesus or what ever, but you have the ability (inner light) to make decisions according to your own wisdom and counsel! This is not Open Theism, but Open Deism! There is a God, but He has to obey my choices! He has to change the future according to the direction that I want to go! Open Deism (Theism) leads to: There is a God but I am really in charge...says the Open Deist! I have freewill and I will do what I want (which is the pride of Lucifer) and God will obey my will! I am smart, I am wise, I can make good decisions! I can do it! Just leave it to me! Just forgive me my sins and watch me save the world! I love you God but you are not able to see the future that well, maybe just a little or a lot but not completely, so you need my help! Now just sit on your throne and watch my "FREEWILL" save me and others! Open theism is really Open Deism! Is says there is a God, call Him whatever you want (Baal, Jesus, or whatever) but I have a "freewill" and I can do what I want, and God will honor my decisions because He loves me and knows how wise I really am! I am able to fill in the areas that God cannot know about the future! So God will just have to trust to MY WISDOM and MY DECISIONS! Jeremiah 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? KJV Bible Christianity Leads to: I am a poor pathetic sinner! I can do nothing! I know nothing! God who's real name is ONLY JESUS CHRIST of the Bible, has all wisdom, knowledge, might and strength! I need Him every moment or I will go astray! I need His love in my heart as put there by a supernatural gift from the Holy Spirit! I have a freewill but only to say yes to whatever I am impressed to do by the WOrd of God brought to me by the Holy SPirit! OH GOD HELP ME! Be my light and my life! Guide me and lead me in you path, for I cannot even take a step unless you place my foot on the right ground! Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; KJV The Open Deist (Theist) has the pride of SELF EMPOWERMENT! The Bible Christian has the humility of Christ! Holy Spirit empowerment! Tidings!
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Post by faithbypower on Apr 5, 2009 22:51:27 GMT -5
Your question is baiting, using a false premise. ---------- I Just posed a simple question, does not open theism in the spirit of its teachings claim man through prayer can change His mind? You stated No and Yes, So I am confused, and then you claim I am baiting and basing everything on a false premise. Really? Is truth baiting and a false premise? You clearly stated God does not Change, but through Prayer you can influence Him to Change His Mind. Definition of Change : to make different in some particular : alter www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/changeDefinition of Influence: the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways : sway. mean power exerted over the minds or behavior of others. influence may apply to a force exercised and received consciously or unconsciously www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/influenceSo change and influence, one is a direct application and the other indirect. So where is the baiting on a false premise? by you using the Word influence, you are claiming using your power of understanding of wisdom to sway God, influence is a form of witchcraft without the Power of the Holy Spirit. I am sorry we cannot sway God, Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the **mind of the Spirit**, because he **maketh intercession** --> for the saints according to the --> will of God If man thinks He can change God, then he thinks his will is equal or above God's Will. Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, *It is not for you to know* the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his --> own power. 8 But ye shall *receive power*, after that the **Holy Ghost** is come upon you: and ye shall *be witnesses* unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, For man is nothing, we know nothing, we can do nothing without the full power of God's Spirit to do according to His will and the Power to fulfill it.
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 6, 2009 7:45:32 GMT -5
Is far different than; Changing God is far different than God changing His mind. Yes. If you don't believe that, you are free to abandon scripture and prayer alike. God allows you that freedom. Here are three examples, one in the OT, one spoken by Jesus and one from an epistle, all stating that God can be swayed. Joel 2:12 "Now, therefore," says the LORD, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God, For He [is] gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm. 14 Who knows [if] He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him-- A grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God? Luke 18:1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get justice for me from my adversary.' 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.' " 6 Then the Lord said, "Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? James 4:2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. I said; You said; That's ridiculous. We can play the "fish for definitions out of context game" if you want, but it won't help your case. First of all encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861621196/influence.htmlDefinition: 1. effect on something: the effect of something on a person, thing, or event Secondly I used an example to illustrate that a change of mind does not constitute a change in identity or character. The rest is your insertion. No context, and speaks nothing to the subject at hand. Including what? Rape, murder, child molestation, genocide, idolatry, sorcery, etc..? This is what Classical theism assumes. Or are you just talking about the good stuff. In other words, God could make everyone good against their will, He just likes having a certain amount of depraved sinners around. Your system is a divided Kingdom. Mat 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. You are plotting God against God by making Him the author of sin and destroyer of sin. That sort of Kingdom could not stand, according to Jesus. Good thing for us, it doesn't really exist. Your still talking to yourself, making up a position to argue against, using exclamation points rather than honesty and reason. You have become a clanging symbol. Type less, study more.
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Post by christiansoldier on Apr 6, 2009 9:09:13 GMT -5
Is far different than; Changing God is far different than God changing His mind. Yes. If you don't believe that, you are free to abandon scripture and prayer alike. God allows you that freedom. Here are three examples, one in the OT, one spoken by Jesus and one from an epistle, all stating that God can be swayed. Joel 2:12 "Now, therefore," says the LORD, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God, For He [is] gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm. 14 Who knows [if] He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him-- A grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God? Luke 18:1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get justice for me from my adversary.' 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.' " 6 Then the Lord said, "Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? James 4:2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. I said; You said; That's ridiculous. We can play the "fish for definitions out of context game" if you want, but it won't help your case. First of all encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861621196/influence.htmlDefinition: 1. effect on something: the effect of something on a person, thing, or event Secondly I used an example to illustrate that a change of mind does not constitute a change in identity or character. The rest is your insertion. No context, and speaks nothing to the subject at hand. Including what? Rape, murder, child molestation, genocide, idolatry, sorcery, etc..? This is what Classical theism assumes. Or are you just talking about the good stuff. In other words, God could make everyone good against their will, He just likes having a certain amount of depraved sinners around. Your system is a divided Kingdom. Mat 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. You are plotting God against God by making Him the author of sin and destroyer of sin. That sort of Kingdom could not stand, according to Jesus. Good thing for us, it doesn't really exist. Your still talking to yourself, making up a position to argue against, using exclamation points rather than honesty and reason. You have become a clanging symbol. Type less, study more. I can always count on Joemccowan to search the Internet for big words and then see how many he can fit in one post. (It doesn't make you sound any more intelligent)
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Post by joemccowan on Apr 6, 2009 10:16:44 GMT -5
Which "big words" are you referring to. There isn't a word in that entire post that my 8yr old couldn't understand. If there is one your having problems with though, let me know.
Your post demonstrates a common problem. Anytime someone "studies to show themselves approved", other folks want to condemn them for doing so. Ignorance really isn't bliss. Scripture warns us about taking on the task of teaching doctrine and theology lightly;
Jam 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I have spent 13yrs pouring over the scriptures, studying Church History, doctrinal development and the philosophies that shaped the way scripture is interpreted and has been handed to us. I don't need to google theology. I don't pretend to understand things that I do not understand. I don't take teaching/preaching lightly. I don't get upset when folks like yourself hurl insults because they can't defend their positions. I worship, pray, study and teach that which I learn. I have little tolerance for anyone who professes to be a teacher/preacher and does not take the time to study and have something substantial to say before they speak.
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 6, 2009 23:02:17 GMT -5
Joe Mccowan
You have confessed you want to change God! You cannot defend this position! It is OPEN-DEISM!
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err , because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? KJV
There are two women grinding at the mill! One has the Holy Spirit! The other does not! 13 years is nothing! Is it not prideful to assume that 13 years of study entitles to to change God who has lived for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000! And that is just the first second of His eternal life!
Now turn from your ways! Stop trying to change God! God has seen the end from the beginning and you need to simply trust and obey! Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and He will bless with true doctrine!
Tidings
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rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Apr 7, 2009 13:22:17 GMT -5
Why is it that all the Closed Theists refuse to defend their position from the Scriptures? If you really want to convince an Open Theist of the error of their ways, then use the Bible to explain that error. Every Open Theist I know has a very high view of scripture and will not be persuaded by baseless rebukes, not matter how often repeated.
Can the Son Influence the Father?
You are offended by the idea that man can influence God, but the doctrines of Closed Theism teach that Jesus cannot influence the Father and the Father cannot influence the Son. But, in the same way that Jesus can touch the heart of the Father, God created mankind in a way that men can touch God's heart as well.
The scriptures show that Abraham influenced God's decision to destroy Sodom (Gen. 18). The scriptures show that Moses changed God's mind concerning the destruction of all of Israel (Ex. 32:9-14). How many more accounts in scripture follow this same pattern? Hundreds?
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Post by dmatic on Apr 8, 2009 16:12:37 GMT -5
I printed this thread yesterday, and finished reading it this morning. Thank you for the discussion. I also went to the site that Jesse recommended in another thread regarding Open Theism and printed a few of the articles. I am very impressed with Gregory Boyd's thoughts and the way he explains some difficult problems with some views regarding God; what He knows, and how He knows it! I just want to say that I am excited, (if that's the word), to investigate these things more fully in the future, Lord willing. I also wanted to thank joe for taking the time to explain in this thread, his thoughts, and to challenge me regarding this fascinating subject! Thank you joe. Peace, dmatic
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 9, 2009 3:09:14 GMT -5
Abraham changed God??? Is that what you said? I was so amazed at what I read that. At first I was shocked, and then I laughed at the thought! Then I said to myself, "no I think he is really serious..."
This shows the understanding that Babylon has of the nature and character of God! They know nothing of God at all, even with the Bible in their hand! WOW! It is sad! Little children if you want to learn, then humble yourself, and the LORD will instruct you! If you do not want to learn, then what is your purpose in life?
By God's grace I will do a post on the Abraham situation, but if you do not see the clear simple truth, it is your own willful ignorance and love for Babylonian confusion. Jesus Christ is coming soon, and you are not ready! You will be LOST breaking the Law of God and many other such things you do! If you want to learn the core doctrines of the Bible then call "Amazing Facts" in Roseville California and get thier 27 Bible study guides! The phone number is 1-800-538-7275. These study guides will help you see through the trash in Babylon!
I will continue to pray for you! I have hope that all of you will repent and come out of Babylon!
Tidings
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 9, 2009 3:47:36 GMT -5
THIS IS SOMEBODY'S QUOTE:
"The scriptures show that Abraham influenced God's decision to destroy Sodom (Gen. 18). The scriptures show that Moses changed God's mind concerning the destruction of all of Israel (Ex. 32:9-14). How many more accounts in scripture follow this same pattern? Hundreds?"
Genesis 18:17-19 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. KJV
NOTE: How did Abraham influence God? God did destroy Sodom! All five cities of the plain were leveled with HELL FIRE and damnation! The LORD came to Abraham in person! And Abraham asked God to save Sodom if a certain amount of people were righteous within the city. Lot was close to Abraham! Abraham wanted to save lot! The LORD allowed Abraham to express his love for others through his request! That is why the LORD came to Abraham in the first place, so that He could answer the prayer of Abraham and save Lot!
The love for Lot was more in the LORD than in Abraham! God is the One that put that love in Abraham, that love is the gospel seed! The LORD was getting a harvest in seeing the love manifest in Abraham, which is the very work of the Holy Spirit on men’s heart! Abraham did not change God! It was God’s intention to save Lot, that is why He came to Abraham, and the Bible would record the character of Abraham for all future generations, and then when we read the Bible we can see the standard of perfection that is required of us! This is what the Holy Spirit will do for each one of us if we allow Him and open our hearts to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
If you are saying that Abraham changed God then here are the implications of this heaven daring falsehood:
1) You are saying that Abraham was teaching the LORD to have mercy on others!
2) You are saying that God is evil and ready to just kill and destroy, and that man is to calm God’s wrath and teach the Creator how to be nice and patient with us sinners!
3) It took man to stop God from killing!
4) You are saying that Man has a greater righteousness than GOD! Abraham is more righteous than the LORD!
5) God did not have compassion until Abraham asked for it! Which means God learned compassion and mercy from a sinner!
The truth will now be told: 1) God came to Abraham who is the Father of faith, to show what a person of faith can be changed into when he follows the LORD! Faith is allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our life to replicate the Character of God! Abraham was interceding for LOT because that is the character of Christ, and it was Christ that put those qualities in Abraham! God allowed the situation so that those qualities could be documented for the Biblical record! As a testimony to us!
2) Man does not have a higher standard than God! Abraham is a type of Christ, and this shows the character to some degree of Jesus Christ! Jesus is our intercessor and as Abraham was pleading for sinners in his day, so to has Christ been pleading for sinners since the Garden of Eden!
3) This story reveals the will of God worked out in Abraham’s life! Not Abraham’s will worked out in God’s life!
4) God was the One that put compassion into Abraham!
5) God was the One that put intercession for sinners on the heart of Abraham!
6) God was the One that came to Abraham personally and tested His servant, whether or not he had the love for others!
7) Abraham passed the test! He showed the Christ-like love for others!
8) This is a fruit of the Gospel! It was grace upon Abraham heart that made him so loving!
9) Abraham did not change a thing! He just showed the character habits and traits that we are all supposed to have as fruits of the gospel plan for mankind!
10) These fruits are put there by God and man can obtain them by FAITH!
Open Theism/Deism has no clue to the spiritual nature of scripture! It is a man made theory that tries to explain the Biblical truths according to the ideas and wisdom of sinful, fallen, and erring mortal man!
No man can change or influence God, His ways are wiser than man! He is all knowing! If you allow the Holy Spirit in your life you would see these spiritual principles!
Rom 7:14 the law is spiritual! Therefore, you need the Holy Spirit to understand it! Do not try it on your own! The WORD is spiritual, therefore, you need the Holy Spirit to understand it! If you surrender your heart completely to God He will open up the SPIRITUAL NATURE of the Word of God for you!
Tidings
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Post by dmatic on Apr 9, 2009 10:45:16 GMT -5
"Tidings" wrote:
Do you know what Open Theism even teaches? It would be helpful if you tried to read some of the writings of those who hold the view of God that does not confine Him to their finite understandings as you seem to have.
I have found, for example, that Gregory Boyd's writing, the little that I have done so far, is very spiritual and respectful. Deep too! The Spirit of God searches the deep things...so I find your accusations a bit offensive. If they are false, as I suspect they might be, I will warn you that God's Law prohibits such. You claim to love His Law....so please refrain from violating it.
Peace, dmatic
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 9, 2009 15:34:47 GMT -5
THIS IS SOMEBODY'S QUOTE: "The scriptures show that Abraham influenced God's decision to destroy Sodom (Gen. 18). The scriptures show that Moses changed God's mind concerning the destruction of all of Israel (Ex. 32:9-14). How many more accounts in scripture follow this same pattern? Hundreds?" Genesis 18:17-19 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. KJV NOTE: How did Abraham influence God? God did destroy Sodom! All five cities of the plain were leveled with HELL FIRE and damnation! The LORD came to Abraham in person! And Abraham asked God to save Sodom if a certain amount of people were righteous within the city. Lot was close to Abraham! Abraham wanted to save lot! The LORD allowed Abraham to express his love for others through his request! That is why the LORD came to Abraham in the first place, so that He could answer the prayer of Abraham and save Lot! The love for Lot was more in the LORD than in Abraham! God is the One that put that love in Abraham, that love is the gospel seed! The LORD was getting a harvest in seeing the love manifest in Abraham, which is the very work of the Holy Spirit on men’s heart! Abraham did not change God! It was God’s intention to save Lot, that is why He came to Abraham, and the Bible would record the character of Abraham for all future generations, and then when we read the Bible we can see the standard of perfection that is required of us! This is what the Holy Spirit will do for each one of us if we allow Him and open our hearts to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you are saying that Abraham changed God then here are the implications of this heaven daring falsehood: 1) You are saying that Abraham was teaching the LORD to have mercy on others! 2) You are saying that God is evil and ready to just kill and destroy, and that man is to calm God’s wrath and teach the Creator how to be nice and patient with us sinners! 3) It took man to stop God from killing! 4) You are saying that Man has a greater righteousness than GOD! Abraham is more righteous than the LORD! 5) God did not have compassion until Abraham asked for it! Which means God learned compassion and mercy from a sinner! The truth will now be told: 1) God came to Abraham who is the Father of faith, to show what a person of faith can be changed into when he follows the LORD! Faith is allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our life to replicate the Character of God! Abraham was interceding for LOT because that is the character of Christ, and it was Christ that put those qualities in Abraham! God allowed the situation so that those qualities could be documented for the Biblical record! As a testimony to us! 2) Man does not have a higher standard than God! Abraham is a type of Christ, and this shows the character to some degree of Jesus Christ! Jesus is our intercessor and as Abraham was pleading for sinners in his day, so to has Christ been pleading for sinners since the Garden of Eden! 3) This story reveals the will of God worked out in Abraham’s life! Not Abraham’s will worked out in God’s life! 4) God was the One that put compassion into Abraham! 5) God was the One that put intercession for sinners on the heart of Abraham! 6) God was the One that came to Abraham personally and tested His servant, whether or not he had the love for others! 7) Abraham passed the test! He showed the Christ-like love for others! 8) This is a fruit of the Gospel! It was grace upon Abraham heart that made him so loving! 9) Abraham did not change a thing! He just showed the character habits and traits that we are all supposed to have as fruits of the gospel plan for mankind! 10) These fruits are put there by God and man can obtain them by FAITH! No man can change or influence God, His ways are wiser than man! He is all knowing! If you allow the Holy Spirit in your life you would see these spiritual principles! Tidings Very Good !
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rwrf
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by rwrf on Apr 9, 2009 21:52:07 GMT -5
Tidings, I appreciate you actually addressing the scriptures in this conversation. It's helpful.
Before responding to your analysis of Abraham's intercession for Sodom, I wonder if you would answer the question that I asked.
Can the Son influence the Father? (or, vice versa, Can the Father influence the Son?)
The reason this question is important and fundamental is because we should be able to understand the nature of God apart from the creation. If the Persons of the Trinity are not able or willing to be influenced by each other, then it would be logical to assume they wouldn't be able or willing to be influenced by a created person.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 10, 2009 4:21:21 GMT -5
Maybe it is just a problem of vocabulary , but it is a weird thing to say that the Father influenced the Son or that the Son can influence the Father. There is no dichotomy. Father and Son have always walked together. The Son came to do the will of the Father, and the words He spoke , he did not spoke of himself but as the Father told him. Even Jesus prayers and atonement for our sins did not influenced the Father because all what Jesus spoke and did was in plain accord with the Father's will. The Father did not influenced the Son either, Jesus came of his own will, to do the will of the Father. He said : no one take my life, i give it of myself, to glorify the name of the Father.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 10, 2009 4:28:55 GMT -5
Father and Son do not influence each other. But walk in accord of will, in perfect harmony. The intercession for the believers that the Son is doing now at the right hand of the Father is perfectly in accord with the Father's will.
Just like Abraham and young Isaac walked together, (it is reported in several scriptures that Abraham and Isaac walked together). Abraham and Isaac -when they went to the mount of the sacrifice-are types of the Father and Son 's sacrifice.
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 10, 2009 4:36:41 GMT -5
As for us, when we pray the Father in the name of Jesus the Son, according to the Father's will , it is written in 1 John that He listens to us. Is God influenced by our prayers , the ones He listens to ? No , but rather it is because these prayers are according to His will.
Romans 8 says that the Holy Spirit who is in our heart pray according to the will of God. So how could believers can think they can influence God, isn't it rather God the Holy Spirit who is interceding on their behalf ? Yet God seeks the participation of humble vessels to carry His will. And part of His will is that we pray before His throne.
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 10, 2009 5:07:58 GMT -5
I completely agree with Eric!
Tidings
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rwrf
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Post by rwrf on Apr 11, 2009 10:33:58 GMT -5
So, it sounds like you are in agreement with me that the Father and the Son as two separate persons, each have two separate wills (correct me if I'm wrong). Jesus said in the Garden of Gethsemane, "not my will, but yours be done." (Matt. 26:39) Jesus said, "I have not come to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me." (John 6:38) That seems to me to be conclusive evidence that the Father and Son do not share one will, but they each have a separate will.
So let me ask the question again, in another way.
Did Jesus allow the Father's will to influence or affect his own will?
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 11, 2009 22:48:13 GMT -5
RWRF,
Jesus Christ took the body of sinful flesh and in that body He never once sinned! He was a sinless and perfect sacrifice! He never turned from the will of God! Yes, He was ans is God as well! But He did not use His DIVINE POWER to overcome sin! He did it by faith, and by faith He followed the Father's will!
THis shows several things!
First, that the will of God if followed means you do not have sin (law breaking) in the life! Even though we are in the sinful flesh! We can live without committing KNOWN transgression against the Law by being in subjection to the WILL OF GOD and Jesus Christ proved that! He took a body that was just like your and mine and in that sinful flesh of a body, He lived a PERFECT LIFE WITHOUT SIN!
He did it by hearing the voice of God on His conscience, and by praying long and seeking His Father's presence and having His duty revealed to Him! Then He obeyed and was keeping the Will of God which is the Law of God!
THe next thing it proves is that He was tempted to give up in the Garden of Gethsemane by yielding to His sinful flesh, but by faith He CHOOSE not to yield, and gave complete submission to His Father! This was done by faith in the Grace that was being offered Him from the Father, and we can have the same experience! We do not have to obey the sinful nature/flesh that is constantly tempting us to go against the Father's will!
I hope I made this post clear! I just want to add that the fact that we have sinful flesh does not mean we have to yield to it! Just as Jesus Christ did we can have victory in the flesh and follow the Will of God, which is expressed in the Ten Commandments.
Our fallen natures can be overcome by partaking in the Divine nature by faith receiving GRACE, which is the power of God to live a holy life, here and now!
Jesus was born in the flesh, like ours but He never once sinned! He never once choose to rebel against the (will of His Father) Law of God! He proved that we can live sin free in the flesh by faith! He is our example! It can be done and we just need to have a deep, deep experience in Righteousness By Faith as Jesus did!
From birth to death Jesus Christ never sinned! We have sinned inn the past, but from our New Birth until death we can do the same as Jesus Christ! If we will just pray and study and seek God with ALL OUR HEARTS we too can live a victorious life!
1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. KJV
Oh! To have the experience of our sinless example! Jesus is now our High Priest and He wants to hear our prayers asking for grace so that we can receive the power of God to obey His will for us!
Goodtidings
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rwrf
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Post by rwrf on Apr 12, 2009 8:12:44 GMT -5
Tidings, your view that Jesus had "sinful flesh" is pretty interesting, but it would be helpful if you would answer my previous question rather than going off on some random tangent.
Did Jesus allow the Father's will to influence or affect his own will?
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 13, 2009 7:12:05 GMT -5
Hebrews 10:7
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. KJV
Jesus Christ had a will and it was yielded to God (His Father) from the time He could make intelligent decisions to yield it to His Father! Jesus became sin for us (flesh) and in this sinful flesh, He lived without ever committing sin of any kind whatsoever! He was the sinless one! He lived in a world of sin with a fleshly body like our, with temptations etc.. but He never yielded His will to anything but what was MARKED out in heaven for Him!
I hope I answered your question! Jesus Christ became a man to live a perfect life without sin! The example of a sinless life is to always follow the WILL OF GOD for our life, and not our own will! Jesus never in His whole life did anything but God's will for Him! His every thought from the age of reason, was perfectly yielded to the WILL OF GOD! His mind never wondered from the control of the Holy Spirit, He was always absolutely surrendered to the Holy SPirit, which reveals the Father's will.
If this is not clear, let me know and I will do my best to clarify.
Goodtidings
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 13, 2009 7:35:13 GMT -5
RWRF,
I think I see your line of reasoning! Correct me if I am wrong! The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are "ONE." That is the Godhead! Their wills are separate but perfectly in agreement! They are one in power and PURPOSE!
However, the Son, became a man, and took the sin plagued body of mankind after it degenerated through 4,000 years of sin on this planet. He did this to be made like unto His brethern and face the SAME TRIALS AND TEMPTATIONS that they do but even harder!
The fact, that He is God does not mean that He used His divine power to overcome temptation! He did not at all do that even once! He could not! For if He did then He could not have overcome and expect us to do the same as He did (Rev 2:7,11,17)!
Instead He relied on His Father's power, the gift of the Holy Spirit, in both revealing the will of God to him (faith) and for the power to obey that will (grace) so that He could conform to the Divine standard and follow the will of God for His life! He was living the life as a man as an example for us. He set aside His will and His power and by faith (which is the knowledge of God's will), He obeyed that will (by grace, the power to follow God's will).
Faith = The knowledge of God's will!
Grace = The power to do God's will!
The will of God is obedience to the control and power of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit's will lead us to not commit any sin, if we fully submit!
Sin is breaking the Law of God!
The Will of God is for us to submit to the Holy Spirit so that the principles of the Ten Commandments can be lived out in our life!
Jesus CHrist had this experience! He did it perfectly and then died as a sacrifice to forgive sins, and then was resurrected to be our High Priest, and a s High Priest He offers us POWER, which is the gift of grace to obey the Law.
We can live in the flesh without sin just as Jesus Christ did! In fact sin is condemned in the flesh and we MUST GET VICTORY JUST as Jesus Christ did!
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. KJV
We can have this experience, NO SIN IN THE FLESH! A HOLY SPIRIT EMPOWERED LIFE OF OBEDIENCE TO THE MORAL LAW OF GOD!
Revelation 3:21-22
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. KJV
We can overcome sin in the flesh! NOT IN OUR POWER! NO WAY! NEVER! Impossible! It will not happen! But we can do it in the POWER of CHRIST! THE GOSPEL POWER (Rom 1:16-17) IS THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE DONE!
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. KJV
I want the power of the Holy Spirit (grace) to submit my will to God by faith, and live a life of freedom from sin in the flesh! This is the hope that the Bible holds out for the OVERCOMERS! May the LORD help us to submit and surrender completely to Him moment by moment just as Jesus Christ did!
Goodtidings
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Post by goodtidings on Apr 13, 2009 7:57:11 GMT -5
The term WORKS OF THE LAW, or WORKS OF THE FLESH are terms used to describe people in the Bible that attempt to obey the Law of God without DIVINE POWER, called GRACE! They are attempting the impossible! They are cursed from Christ!
Galatians 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. KJV
NOTE: The curse of the Law is death! The wages of sin is death! That is the curse! It does not matter if you then try to keep the law, you are still cursed to die the second death!
The curse of death is lifted by Jesus Christ paying our penalty,as He did this on the cross!
But one problem still remains! Just because past sins are forgiven, how do we overcome future sins?
The wages of sin is still death (curse of the law)! If we continue to live in sin then we will still have to die! Christ is not the MINISTER OF SIN, that is Satan's job! Christ is the MINISTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS! We can overcome sin and the curse of law (death) by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The gift of GRACE, which is the Holy SPirit's presence in the life that brings supernatural power to overcome Satan and his sinful temptations, and to have our character changed from sin lovers to sin haters! For this to be accomplished we must have the DIVINE, CREATIVE, and all wonderful gift of GRACE, the Holy SPirit's blessing in our life!
Christ died to forgive us of our sins!
Christ lives now (as High Priest) to give us victory over our fallen natures (sin lovers) by allowing us to be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE (sin hater)! We can live righteous lives with the gift of grace!
2 Peter 1:4
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. KJV
May we all seek God with all our heart to have a more abundant gift of the Holy Spirit in our life, as He brings GRACE to help us overcome our fallen nature and become righteous in the DIVINE NATURE! May we all claim the PROMISES of GOD that offer us power to overcome moment by moment, and submit our will to the will of God and allow His righteousness to be worked out in us by faith!
Goodtidings
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Post by dmatic on Apr 15, 2009 19:00:46 GMT -5
Why is it that all the Closed Theists refuse to defend their position from the Scriptures? If you really want to convince an Open Theist of the error of their ways, then use the Bible to explain that error. Every Open Theist I know has a very high view of scripture and will not be persuaded by baseless rebukes, not matter how often repeated. Can the Son Influence the Father?You are offended by the idea that man can influence God, but the doctrines of Closed Theism teach that Jesus cannot influence the Father and the Father cannot influence the Son. But, in the same way that Jesus can touch the heart of the Father, God created mankind in a way that men can touch God's heart as well. The scriptures show that Abraham influenced God's decision to destroy Sodom (Gen. 18). The scriptures show that Moses changed God's mind concerning the destruction of all of Israel (Ex. 32:9-14). How many more accounts in scripture follow this same pattern? Hundreds? I really liked this post. I sincerely would like to discuss the teaching of Open Theism. It is very interesting to me. I am not very familiar with its tenets, but there are some very interesting questions raised by Open Theists.... I suppose the question of "touching God's heart" through prayer is as good a place to start as any. I don't think that the "Open theist" is ever suggesting that he/she knows better than God! But there is scriptural admonition to pray. And we've all heard the "ism" that "Prayer changes things". Does it, or is nothing ever changed? If nothing is ever changed, then why pray? Obviously the pray-er is changed...but why is change necessary if whatever will be has always been. it seems obvious to me that God is not confined to the "boxes" we've "created for Him in our minds! Theology is the study of God. I want to know Him. And of course, that means the Truth! The many scriputre passages that impl;y that God WAS influenced by the prayer of a righteous man...gives me a clue that the "Closed Theists" don't probably have Him all figured out just yet! I would appreciate hearing more about the teachings of "Open theism". thank you. dmatic
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Post by debonnaire on Apr 16, 2009 6:33:21 GMT -5
I don't like the terms “touching God’s heart” or “God is influenced by the prayer of a righteous”.
It is still man centered.
Jesus has told us that ONLY ONE IS GOOD. When He taught us to pray with faith and perseverance , He told the story of the woman who had to deal with a bad judge, and finally the judge granted the woman justice because she bothered and annoyed him. How much more the Father who is good will grant promptly justice to his sons and daughters who cry to him day and night.
It is a great teaching which says firstly that God is Good. And if He is good and ready to grant promptly to His children , how can we think that God ‘ s heart has to be touched or changed or soften or whatever !?!
Only hard hearts have to be touched , or soften , or broken , and it’s certainly not God who needs to be touched so to grant answers to prayers !!!! NO it is not God who needs to be touched , but it is man who needs it. When Jesus resurrected , He rebuked His disciples for they did not really believed that He had to resurrect. Why ? He said it himself : because they had still unbelief and hardness of heart. He rebuked them for that. Secondly this teaching tells us that His saints pray to Him day and night. Because the saints of God believe Him, and who He is, and a life of prayer has been developed. Who knows what can happen then , for indeed the prayer of a righteous man avails much.
I remember when the Holy Spirit made a firm (yet gentle) pressure exactly on the back of my knees, so that I hit the ground kneeling and pray, without knowing for what to pray. I know others who have exactly the same testimony , i.e the Holy Spirit “hit” them by a “pressure” on the back of the knees.
God wants us to pray (and surrender), not to touch Him, but because it's His will. Let us give up any understandings of God tainted with humanism or egocentrism.
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Post by dmatic on Apr 16, 2009 17:49:40 GMT -5
you make some wonderful points, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that God is not good!
Peace, dmatic
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