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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 21, 2009 11:22:45 GMT -5
What you say:- “We believe that while Baptism doesn't save a person or make a person born again, that it is much more important then the modern American Church makes it. In the modern American Church, the altar call, praying a prayer and many other things have overtaken this Biblical mandate. Every believer that is able should be Baptized as soon as they are able, not when there is a "quarterly baptism" or when the Pastor is ready (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:26-39).” www.pinpointevangelism.com/whatwebelieve.htm
And what you do:- “Another individual heard us preaching for days. She was a young homeless woman who hangs out at the beach. She would stay and listen to us preaching for hours. One of the brothers was able to pray with her for salvation. She seemed to me to be very genuine. We also have some brothers who live in the area who knew of a Christian program that she could become apart of to get her off the streets.” Two Sinners Pray for Salvation During Miami Outreach Apr 3, 2009 News Letter.
What you say:- “We believe that while Baptism doesn't save a person…”
What the Bible says:- “There is also an antitype which now saves us – Baptism…” 1 Peter 3:21
What you say:- “…Or make a person born again,”
What the Bible says:- “Most assuredly I say to you unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God… Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” John 3:3-5
What you say:- * We believe in the spiritual unity of all believers worldwide in our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 12:3-8, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:26-28).
But you also say:- We live by this motto: Unity in Essentials, Liberty in Non-Essentials, but in All Things Love!
The Bible says:- “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” 1 Corinthians 1:10
- “Can two walk together unless they are agreed?” Amos 3:3
What you say:- We believe that men must be "born again" or "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit for salvation because of the exceeding sinfulness of man. We believe that sinners are justified on the single ground of faith in the shed blood of Christ, and that only by God's grace through faith alone are we saved. Works cannot save a sinner, forgive a sinner or wash away a sinner's sins (John 3:3-5; 3:16-19;3:36; 5:24, Romans 3:23; 5:8-9, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5).
What the Bible says:- “For by grace are ye saved through faith…” Ephesians 2:9
- “Ye see, then, that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.” James 2:24
4. Sound Doctrine/Good Theology- We believe and obey the Bible. We are willing to challenge what most consider "orthodoxy" and test it against the Bible to see if it holds water. We don't care what popular teachers say is the truth, or what synods, councils and catechisms have said in the past. We believe the Truth, nothing more, nothing less. If someone can show us, from the Bible, that we are wrong about any of our beliefs, we are willing to change what we believe. Paul commended the Bereans for this way of thinking.
Kerrigan Skelly: - “I am not interested in debating anyone on the subject of Baptism right now. Maybe in the future. Right now, I am only interested in debating someone on Perseverance of the Saints or OSAS.” Openairoutreach.com - World-view debating – Water Baptism – Reply #1
- “I have complete confidence in my situation. I just have more important obligations right now. I might be willing to debate this later on in the Summer when I have more time.” Openairoutreach.com - World-view debating – Water Baptism – Reply #3
- “And you need to stop lying about our interaction. I responded back and forth with you for quite some time and you never provided good responses to my objections to your position. And then, like I said, you basically exalted water baptism to the place of the Holy Spirit saying that water baptism and not the Holy Spirit is what sealed believers into the Body of Christ! I told you that was idolatry and blasphemous and didn't wish to talk to you about it anymore.” Openairoutreach.com - World-view debating – Water Baptism – Reply #3
My response to which Mr. Skelly replied “That’s idolatry and blasphemous” (no scripture added) can be found here: blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&bID=490301771
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Post by joemccowan on May 22, 2009 9:00:07 GMT -5
Since you are continuously baiting, I'll bite.
How does baptism save and by what is that salvation conferred?
Is the power of Baptism in the water? If so, everyone who has taken a bath is already baptized.
Is the power of Baptism in the Baptizer? If so, any baptism outside the canonical Orthodox Church is invalid.
Is the power of Baptism in the church administering the Baptism? It so, any baptism outside the canonical Orthodox Church is invalid.
Is the power of Baptism in the Spirit? If so, you don't have much of an argument.
I imagine you are probably part of some Church of Christ movement, so you are not going to understand what I just said about the canonical Orthodox Church (they are the only ones who can make the case you are trying to make). Now I'm baiting.
Blessings, Joe
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 9:23:01 GMT -5
Dear Joe, The simple fact that you responded to this post shows that you do not believe the scriptures as I used none of my own words and only the scriptures. As for your questions... How does baptism save and by what is that salvation conferred? "...Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21 "...Through the faith of the operation of God..." Colossians 2:11-12 Is the power of Baptism in the water? No. Is the power of Baptism in the Baptizer? No. Is the power of Baptism in the church administering the Baptism? No. Is the power of Baptism in the Spirit? No. There is no power in Baptism. - The Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16
- Which is preached so that men can believe. Romans 10:14
- Then power can be granted to the individual who believes "As many as received him to them gave he power..." John 1:12
- So that they can exercise their right or "...Power to become the sons of God." John 1:12
- By purifying their souls in obeying the truth. 1 Peter 1:22
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Post by joemccowan on May 22, 2009 10:08:37 GMT -5
Dear Joe, The simple fact that you responded to this post shows that you do not believe the scriptures as I used none of my own words and only the scriptures. As for your questions... How does baptism save and by what is that salvation conferred? "...Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21 "...Through the faith of the operation of God..." Colossians 2:11-12 No. No. No. Is the power of Baptism in the Spirit? No. There is no power in Baptism. - The Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16
- Which is preached so that men can believe. Romans 10:14
- Then power can be granted to the individual who believes "As many as received him to them gave he power..." John 1:12
- So that they can exercise their right or "...Power to become the sons of God." John 1:12
- By purifying their souls in obeying the truth. 1 Peter 1:22
Then what is your point?
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Post by joemccowan on May 22, 2009 11:47:20 GMT -5
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Was Paul a heretic? Did he not do the same thing Kerrigan did? He preached the gospel, made converts and yet he did not baptize them. Baptism served as an entrance in the the local Body of believers, of which Paul was not a Bishop of. The Early Church required Baptism to be conducted by or under the authority of a Bishop. When preaching open air in another city, Kerrigan is not serving in the capacity of a Bishop, just as Paul was not serving in the capacity of a Bishop. Since conversion precedes baptism, baptism is obviously is not the centerpiece of conversion. Baptism then is a sacrament, just as the Eucharist is, in which all converts should participate in as faithful citizens of God's Kingdom.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 13:24:17 GMT -5
No. Did he not do the same thing Kerrigan did? No. He preached the gospel, made converts and yet he did not baptize them. No one is a convert before baptism. Paul baptized some. Baptism served as an entrance in the the local Body of believers, of which Paul was not a Bishop of. No Bible verse. The Early Church required Baptism to be conducted by or under the authority of a Bishop. No Bible verse. (No Bishop in Acts 8:38) When preaching open air in another city, Kerrigan is not serving in the capacity of a Bishop, just as Paul was not serving in the capacity of a Bishop. Building upon a false premise. Since conversion precedes baptism, Arrogant presupposition with no Bible verse. baptism is obviously is not the centerpiece of conversion. No one said it was. Baptism is a command which must be obeyed in order obtain remission of our sins. (Acts 2:38) Baptism then is a sacrament, Sacrament cannot be found in the Bible. just as the Eucharist is, Nor can the Eucharist. in which all converts should participate in as faithful citizens of God's Kingdom. No Bible verse. 1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. Paul's purpose was to preach the Gospel. The individual's sent to get baptized. Paul baptized some. After Paul baptized some, those Christians went and baptized others who believed the Gospel. You skipped verse 13 which tells us that in order for one to be of Christ, he must be baptized in the name of Christ.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 13:27:25 GMT -5
The point of this post was to show how PinPointEvangelism.com contradicts the scriptures. The point of my reply was to address your questions.
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Post by tonyholland on May 22, 2009 14:35:12 GMT -5
I have never understood this concept. According to this thinking, a person could
1) Become aware of his sin 2) Repent 3) Believe that Jesus Christ is his Savior and have a legitimate change of heart. 4) Be hit by a bus and die 5) Spend eternity in Hell because he wasn't yet baptized.
This does not make any sense at all. You have provided a great deal to scripture, most of which could be interpeted differently in full context. When others have made a case against your view you have either said that it isn't backed up by scripture, or when it was, said that the interpetation is wrong.
So what we are left with is.....
1) You are correct 2) Those who don't agree with you are not.
This is why most folks wont debate with C of C folks because it goes absolutley nowhere. Simply cherry picking scripture to support your theology doesn't make everyone who disagrees unbiblical.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 16:07:03 GMT -5
I have never understood this concept. According to this thinking, a person could 1) Become aware of his sin 2) Repent 3) Believe that Jesus Christ is his Savior and have a legitimate change of heart. 4) Be hit by a bus and die 5) Spend eternity in Hell because he wasn't yet baptized. This does not make any sense at all. You have provided a great deal to scripture, most of which could be interpeted differently in full context. When others have made a case against your view you have either said that it isn't backed up by scripture, or when it was, said that the interpetation is wrong. So what we are left with is..... 1) You are correct 2) Those who don't agree with you are not. This is why most folks wont debate with C of C folks because it goes absolutley nowhere. Simply cherry picking scripture to support your theology doesn't make everyone who disagrees unbiblical. Mr. Holland, Thank you for your opinion. However, I believe we can come to a knowledge of the truth and know what the Bible says. (Ephesians 5:17) Jonathan
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Post by John McGlone on May 22, 2009 17:42:17 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Whitehead,
Would you deal with one of Mr. Holland's primary points?
"I have never understood this concept. According to this thinking, a person could
1) Become aware of his sin 2) Repent 3) Believe that Jesus Christ is his Savior and have a legitimate change of heart. 4) Be hit by a bus and die 5) Spend eternity in Hell because he wasn't yet baptized."
You contradict yourself when you say there is no power in the water of baptism to save. Then you lead us to all of your cherry picked points that one must be water baptized to be saved. This is a fallacious conclusion.
May we agree that we should be baptized in water?
Do we have to be baptized in the Holy Ghost?
Do we have to be baptized in fire?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 18:18:50 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Whitehead, Would you deal with one of Mr. Holland's primary points? "I have never understood this concept. According to this thinking, a person could 1) Become aware of his sin 2) Repent 3) Believe that Jesus Christ is his Savior and have a legitimate change of heart. 4) Be hit by a bus and die 5) Spend eternity in Hell because he wasn't yet baptized."If someone dies before they make it to the water's of Baptism then they waited too late to be baptized. Just as someone who died on their way to hear the Gospel waited too late to give a preacher a moment of their time. You contradict yourself when you say there is no power in the water of baptism to save. The power of salvation is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When a man believes the gospel he receives the right or power to become a child of God. The individual has the power to obey the truth and be baptized. There's no more power in the waters of Baptism than there was in the ark of Noah. Both are vehicles one must use in order to be delivered form the pollutions of this world. Then you lead us to all of your cherry picked points that one must be water baptized to be saved. This is a fallacious conclusion. Correct me then. May we agree that we should be baptized in water? Yes. Do we have to be baptized in the Holy Ghost? There's no commandment to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. If you believe we must be baptized in the Holy Ghost, tell us how and supply an example of people being baptized in the Holy Ghost in order to obtain salvation. Be careful to use Bible terms for Bible examples. Do we have to be baptized in fire? Only those who do not believe in God and do not obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be baptized with fire. Compare Matthew 3:11 to Matthew 3:10 and 12
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Post by John McGlone on May 22, 2009 18:34:56 GMT -5
If someone dies before they make it to the water's of Baptism then they waited too late to be baptized. Just as someone who died on their way to hear the Gospel waited too late to give a preacher a moment of their time.
The power of salvation is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When a man believes the gospel he receives the right or power to become a child of God. The individual has the power to obey the truth and be baptized. There's no more power in the waters of Baptism than there was in the ark of Noah. Both are vehicles one must use in order to be delivered form the pollutions of this world.
Dear Jonathan,
So the power is in the WATER! I am glad we got that straightened out. Now can you please tell me why you keep contradicting your positions in your posts? Let me make sure I understand; You say the power is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you say it is not effectual until you by obedient faith are immersed in the water. Is that a correct understanding of your proposition?
What if you were stranded in the desert, you cried out to God in repentant faith as you were about to die. Water could not be had for hundreds of miles, much less enough to be baptized with. You knew by the instruction of the C of C that unless you made it to the water that you would die in your sin because you have not been physically washed or immersed.
Does that sound logical to you?
God bless you. John
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 18:51:42 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, So the power is in the WATER! I am glad we got that straightened out. Now can you please tell me why you keep contradicting your positions in your posts? Let me make sure I understand; You say the power is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you say it is not effectual until you by obedient faith are immersed in the water. Is that a correct understanding of your proposition?I never said there was power in the water. If you believe there was power in the ark of Noah, then I suppose you can believe there is power in the waters of Baptism. However, by claiming there is power in the ark of Noah or the waters of Baptism you go beyond that which is written as the Bible never gives power to baptism, the ark of Noah, repentance, or belief as they cannot exercise that power. The individual is granted power in which he must chose to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ "Repent ye, and be baptized... for the remission of you sins." What if you were stranded in the desert, you cried out to God in repentant faith as you were about to die. Water could not be had for hundreds of miles, much less enough to be baptized with. You knew by the instruction of the C of C that unless you made it to the water that you would die in your sin because you have not been physically washed or immersed. Most assuredly I say unto except a man is born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Does that sound logical to you? "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:12
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Post by John McGlone on May 22, 2009 19:35:40 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan,
This is great! Now please be patient as I am finishing my study and spending the evening with my family tonight and I will be in fellowship with other believers most of tomorrow. I hope to respond to these verses you have posed by Sunday.
God bless you.
John
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 22, 2009 21:39:28 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, This is great! Now please be patient as I am finishing my study and spending the evening with my family tonight and I will be in fellowship with other believers most of tomorrow. I hope to respond to these verses you have posed by Sunday. God bless you. John Dear John, I hope you choose to use scripture. Jonathan
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Post by John McGlone on May 23, 2009 9:55:54 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, This is great! Now please be patient as I am finishing my study and spending the evening with my family tonight and I will be in fellowship with other believers most of tomorrow. I hope to respond to these verses you have posed by Sunday. God bless you. John Dear John, I hope you choose to use scripture. Jonathan Dear Jonathan, I hope that you can see scripture in my posts without quoting chapter and isolated verses as you have. But, I will try and keep up and list the chapter and verses every time I post. God bless you. John
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Post by joemccowan on May 23, 2009 21:54:21 GMT -5
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus told the unbaptized thief on the cross that he would be in paradise that very day.
Either Jesus is a liar or He isn't, period.
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Post by John McGlone on May 23, 2009 22:03:19 GMT -5
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus told the unbaptized thief on the cross that he would be in paradise that very day. Either Jesus is a liar or He isn't, period. Dear Joe, I suppose that Jonathan will respond something like this: Baptism regenerationalist defenders say that, before Jesus' death on the cross, he did at times forgive sins for differing reasons and with differing actions on the part of the one forgiven (cf. Mark 2:2-5, Luke 7:36-48) but, since his death, one must be united with him through baptism (Romans 6:3-7). Naturally, this argument is rejected by Christians who believe that God has always saved people by the same means for the same reason. Through faith by conviction of the Holy Spirit turning from sin and unto the gospel of Jesus. And I have another point I'd like to make about this particular event, but will save it for later as I am still studying it. God bless you Joe, John
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 23, 2009 23:32:33 GMT -5
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus told the unbaptized thief on the cross that he would be in paradise that very day. Either Jesus is a liar or He isn't, period. - You've spoken where the Bibles silent as we are not told whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized. He could have just as well been baptized prior to the cross and as a result of a true repentant faith decided to right his wrongs by turning himself in and accepting his due punishment.
- The Thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant.
- The Thief on the cross lived before the baptism which is in the name of Jesus Christ came into affect.
- Christ had power on earth to forgive sins however he wished. He has chosen to forgive sins today through belief, repentance, confession, faith, and baptism.
God has always saved men the same way; By Grace through faith. Saving faith believes that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6). If you believe that God saves you before you do anything, then you don't have a saving faith. In fact, it's dead (James 2:24,26) Jonathan
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 6:20:23 GMT -5
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus told the unbaptized thief on the cross that he would be in paradise that very day. Either Jesus is a liar or He isn't, period. - You've spoken where the Bibles silent as we are not told whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized. He could have just as well been baptized prior to the cross and as a result of a true repentant faith decided to right his wrongs by turning himself in and accepting his due punishment.
- The Thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant.
- The Thief on the cross lived before the baptism which is in the name of Jesus Christ came into affect.
- Christ had power on earth to forgive sins however he wished. He has chosen to forgive sins today through belief, repentance, confession, faith, and baptism.
God has always saved men the same way; By Grace through faith. Saving faith believes that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6). If you believe that God saves you before you do anything, then you don't have a saving faith. In fact, it's dead (James 2:24,26) Jonathan Dear Jonathan, You too have spoken from silence. The ironic thing is if this was a matter of salvation as you suppose then shouldn't God have clearly outlined it?
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 6:26:05 GMT -5
I never said there was power in the water. If you believe there was power in the ark of Noah, then I suppose you can believe there is power in the waters of Baptism. However, by claiming there is power in the ark of Noah or the waters of Baptism you go beyond that which is written as the Bible never gives power to baptism, the ark of Noah, repentance, or belief as they cannot exercise that power. The individual is granted power in which he must chose to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ "Repent ye, and be baptized... for the remission of you sins."
Dear Jonathan,
Yes you have clearly posted over and again that belief without obedience to the water immersion will not result in an effectual conversion experience.
I will ask again is conversion by the Holy Spirit effectual for salvation before we get into the water?
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 6:28:39 GMT -5
Most assuredly I say unto except a man is born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
So here is John 3, you are supposing this means water baptism? Is that your proposition?
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 6:33:07 GMT -5
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 7:32:30 GMT -5
Saving faith believes that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6). If you believe that God saves you before you do anything, then you don't have a saving faith. In fact, it's dead (James 2:24,26)
I agree with these scriptures Jonathan, but do you agree with all scriptures?
Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justification is not by works. Is water baptism a work? How do you define what works are that they can be separated from our thinking about our salvation? Maybe you suppose repentance is a work, but is it really a physical work or just a change of heart and mind about our sin, God's righteousness, and His judgment to come? John 16:8
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 24, 2009 8:10:14 GMT -5
- You've spoken where the Bibles silent as we are not told whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized. He could have just as well been baptized prior to the cross and as a result of a true repentant faith decided to right his wrongs by turning himself in and accepting his due punishment.
- The Thief on the cross lived under the Old Covenant.
- The Thief on the cross lived before the baptism which is in the name of Jesus Christ came into affect.
- Christ had power on earth to forgive sins however he wished. He has chosen to forgive sins today through belief, repentance, confession, faith, and baptism.
God has always saved men the same way; By Grace through faith. Saving faith believes that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6). If you believe that God saves you before you do anything, then you don't have a saving faith. In fact, it's dead (James 2:24,26) Jonathan Dear Jonathan, You too have spoken from silence. The ironic thing is if this was a matter of salvation as you suppose then shouldn't God have clearly outlined it? "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 "Repent ye and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins..." Acts 2:38 "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away they sins calling upon the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3 "For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as have been baptiezd into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:26,27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word." "In whom also ye are circumsiced with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 2:5 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." 1 Peter 3:21 "For there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." 1 John 5:8 It doesn't get any more clear than that.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 24, 2009 8:13:19 GMT -5
I never said there was power in the water. If you believe there was power in the ark of Noah, then I suppose you can believe there is power in the waters of Baptism. However, by claiming there is power in the ark of Noah or the waters of Baptism you go beyond that which is written as the Bible never gives power to baptism, the ark of Noah, repentance, or belief as they cannot exercise that power. The individual is granted power in which he must chose to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ "Repent ye, and be baptized... for the remission of you sins."Dear Jonathan, Yes you have clearly posted over and again that belief without obedience to the water immersion will not result in an effectual conversion experience. I will ask again is conversion by the Holy Spirit effectual for salvation before we get into the water? I will answer once again; "There's no commandment to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. If you believe we must be baptized in the Holy Ghost, tell us how and supply an example of people being baptized in the Holy Ghost in order to obtain salvation. Be careful to use Bible terms for Bible examples. "If you want a different answer define your question. Define "by" and explain how this conversion your talking about occurs. I've gathered from your post that it's some sort of feel good experience.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 24, 2009 8:14:47 GMT -5
Most assuredly I say unto except a man is born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So here is John 3, you are supposing this means water baptism? Is that your proposition? Most assuredly.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 24, 2009 8:15:35 GMT -5
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 24, 2009 8:43:22 GMT -5
Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. This is not Abraham's initial salvation. Abraham was saved in Genesis 12, not Genesis 15:6. (Hebrews 11:8) This is a quote from Genesis 15:6 which can also be found in James 2:23 to teach that one's not saved by belief alone. The word "works" has reference to meritorious works and not obedience. If "works" referenced obedience, the scriptures would teach that rebellious men will be blessed. "Now to him that obeyeth is the reward not reckoned of grace , but of debt." and "But to him that obeyeth not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:4,5 The faith that saves according to Romans 4:12 is the faith that walks in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham. Abraham believed that God is a "Rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6 Verse 11 excludes Repentance. Belief is a comprehensive term. Meaning it's inclusive and not exclusive. Paul's point was that Abraham was saved by obeying God and not the law. So then should the Gentiles also be admitted into God's grace. "Who can withstand God?" Acts 11:17Justification is not by works. Is water baptism a work? Yes and so is belief. John 6:29 How do you define what works are that they can be separated from our thinking about our salvation? Commandments of God are works of God. We will be judged by our works. (Revelation 20:12) Your problem is with your universal definition for works. I suggest using a contextual definition. There are many different kinds of works in the scriptures works of God, works of Righteousness, works of the law, meritorious works, etc. If we take "works" in Revelation 20:12 to be meritorious works or even the works of the law, then none of us will go to heaven. Like I said earlier, if you believe "works" (in Romans 4) to be obedience toward God, you're in trouble. Maybe you suppose repentance is a work, but is it really a physical work or just a change of heart and mind about our sin, God's righteousness, and His judgment to come? John 16:8 Repentance is also a work. So is confession "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10 So now, work's only has reference to physical obedience. Plug in the term and see if it works. (Romans 4:4,5)
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 19:34:08 GMT -5
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
"Repent ye and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins..." Acts 2:38
"Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away they sins calling upon the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
"Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3
"For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as have been baptiezd into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:26,27
"That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word."
"In whom also ye are circumsiced with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 2:5
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." 1 Peter 3:21
"For there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." 1 John 5:8
It doesn't get any more clear than that.
Oh I agree with all of these, just not the supposition you are overlaying water baptism. That is as you have stated faith in Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are ineffectual for salvation until a person is immersed in water.
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