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Post by tonyholland on May 26, 2009 23:51:50 GMT -5
...and here we have the reason that this debate is pointless. You just as well be debating Shirley Phelps. Shirley Phelps doesn't have scripture for what she believes. Yes, and pretty much anyone can take a select group of scripture and make it say whatever they want. What you have basicaly done is started with a position and then worked through various scripture to find the right ones to support your position. After that, you claim that you have the only correct interpretation and those who believe differently are not true belivers. This Is also what cults do. Yes, Phelps has taken certain Scripture and used them to justify her "doctrine"....just as you have.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 27, 2009 8:54:12 GMT -5
Shirley Phelps doesn't have scripture for what she believes. Yes, and pretty much anyone can take a select group of scripture and make it say whatever they want. What you have basicaly done is started with a position and then worked through various scripture to find the right ones to support your position. After that, you claim that you have the only correct interpretation and those who believe differently are not true belivers. This Is also what cults do. Yes, Phelps has taken certain Scripture and used them to justify her "doctrine"....just as you have. Sir, your problem is that you do not believe the Bible can be understood. All you've done is accuse me a being in a cult. A cult that you created and put me in. I am in the Lord's church, you are not. I wish you would study the scriptures.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 27, 2009 9:03:28 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, Because your 'church' is named, church of Christ; does not make it so. I don't have a church and I didn't name it. The true 'Church of Christ' is spotless, blameless, holy and obedient to the gospel and commandments of Jesus Christ. These are individuals who are knit together in love for the Truth of Jesus, His Word, and for the brethren. Agreed. We are obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ which you've chosen to reinterpret as your own. You've created your own plan of salvation and you boast about it. I am not persuaded of your position, it is too bad you could not have been a bit more mature in your communications. Sir, examine yourself. I almost am persuaded that within a few day, there won't be much happening here. Because no one can prove from the scriptures that one is saved by faith alone. Also, no one can justify religious divisions which was also another doctrine that PinPointEvangelism.com created. All the Christians, that I know of, here have been immersed in water as an outward expression of an inward change in their hearts and minds. This baptism cannot be found in the Bible. What are you trying to prove, that we must be part of the 'c of C'? No one comes to the Father except through Christ. One must be a member of the church of Christ. I have dared to spend my precious time interacting with someone who's perception is always right, who can not receive the possibility they might be wrong. I am finished now Jonathan. It's impossible to change my mind with your opinions. Perhaps if you chose to study these passages, we could both come to a knowledge of the truth.
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Post by steve spidell on May 27, 2009 10:22:32 GMT -5
Then exactly what is your point? Even you have used 1Pet. 3:21 "an answer of a good conscience". Your are just arguing over words that really mean the same thing.
I think what John was trying to say, (correct me if i'm wrong Bro. John) was the "denomination" of church of Christ. We are "by one Spirit baptized into the body/church of Christ".
And, yes, no one comes to Father except through Christ, not water baptism, thanks for clearing that up for us all.
I asked you this before, Jonathan, but i don't think you saw it, or you just ignored it, not sure which.
You said a good Bible student will ask "where, when, why", etc, so:
"where" do you suppose that the 3000 were water baptized on the day of Pentecost? Jerusalem? Jordan? What body of water?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 27, 2009 12:38:48 GMT -5
"where" do you suppose that the 3000 were water baptized on the day of Pentecost? Jerusalem? Jordan? What body of water? The scripture do not say. They were most certainly baptized in water because they were baptized in the name of the Lord. Baptism in the name of the Lord is always with water. Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water?... Then he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. "
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Post by steve spidell on May 27, 2009 13:34:51 GMT -5
"where" do you suppose that the 3000 were water baptized on the day of Pentecost? Jerusalem? Jordan? What body of water? The scripture do not say. They were most certainly baptized in water because they were baptized in the name of the Lord. Baptism in the name of the Lord is always with water. Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water?... Then he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Have you looked at a map of Jerusalem? I can't find a body of water to baptize 3000 people in one day.
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kenm
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by kenm on May 27, 2009 15:07:33 GMT -5
I have a question: In Acts 10:44-48 "While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days."
Now the question is did they have to be baptized with water to keep the Holy Spirit they they had already been filled with? Yes they were baptized, and the question has not been should we be baptized but is the power to keep or get the Holy Spirit in the water or in the Faith? They had received the Holy Spirit by their faith.
Thanks Ken
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Post by John McGlone on May 27, 2009 15:15:38 GMT -5
I have a question: In Acts 10:44-48 "While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." Now the question is did they have to be baptized with water to keep the Holy Spirit they they had already been filled with? Yes they were baptized, and the question has not been should we be baptized but is the power to keep or get the Holy Spirit in the water or in the Faith? They had received the Holy Spirit by their faith. Thanks Ken Let's see how JD will handle this one!
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 27, 2009 17:15:12 GMT -5
I have a question: In Acts 10:44-48 "While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." Now the question is did they have to be baptized with water to keep the Holy Spirit they they had already been filled with? Yes they were baptized, and the question has not been should we be baptized but is the power to keep or get the Holy Spirit in the water or in the Faith? They had received the Holy Spirit by their faith. Thanks Ken Ken, That's an interesting question. I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. These men were filled with the Holy Spirit in the sense that they received a gift from the Holy Spirit: Miraculous speaking in tongues. The scriptures don't tell us whether or not they would have been able to keep this particular gift if they had chosen not to be baptized. In fact, we don't even know if they were still endowed with this gift after baptism. I'd be speaking where the Bible was silent if I answered your question. To speak would be to go beyond that which is written. However, I'd like to suggest: - One thing I'd like to suggest to you is when interpreting "filled with the Holy Spirit" "Gift of the Holy Spirit" "Received the Holy Spirit" to do so within it's own context. There's no universal definition for these terms.
The " power to get or keep the Holy Spirit" is in the individual. The individual chooses to act in obedience. It is through his faith in the operation of God that raises the individual. That is, he has faith that when he obeys God's command to be baptized, that God will forgive his sins. Without this faith, all efforts are futile as there's only one plan of salvation. I have a question for you also: In Acts 11:17 the apostle Peter said; "Who was I to withstand God?" My question to you is, "Withstand God from doing what?"
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 27, 2009 17:16:29 GMT -5
The scripture do not say. They were most certainly baptized in water because they were baptized in the name of the Lord. Baptism in the name of the Lord is always with water. Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water?... Then he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Have you looked at a map of Jerusalem? I can't find a body of water to baptize 3000 people in one day. Baptism in the name of Jesus is with water as I've already shown.
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Post by John McGlone on May 27, 2009 23:56:11 GMT -5
So baptism by the Holy Spirit must be concluded by immersion in the waters of obedience in order to be saved. You still have not proven this supposition from scriptures.
Acts 8:36-39
...And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”[c] 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 0:00:18 GMT -5
Your core problem Jonathan is that you make contrary statements that contradict the Bible.
You say, '...there is no power in the water.'
Then you say, 'unless you get in the water in obedience to the Gospel... you are not saved.'
The earthly water makes the new birth effectual according to your view. I doubt you will be honest enough with yourself to admit that.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 28, 2009 7:20:02 GMT -5
So baptism by the Holy Spirit must be concluded by immersion in the waters of obedience in order to be saved. You still have not proven this supposition from scriptures. I proved that Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit Baptism on one of my earlier posts but you have completely ignored it. Acts 8:36-39 ...And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”[c] 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. It wasn't until after the eunuch was baptized that he went away rejoicing.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 28, 2009 7:22:52 GMT -5
Your core problem Jonathan is that you make contrary statements that contradict the Bible. You say, '...there is no power in the water.' Then you say, 'unless you get in the water in obedience to the Gospel... you are not saved.' The earthly water makes the new birth effectual according to your view. I doubt you will be honest enough with yourself to admit that. There's no more power baptism than their is in belief. Neither are said to have power anywhere in the scriptures. I'm sorry that you can't understand this. Without the earthly water, no new birth can take place. Jesus said "Except ye be born of the water and the spirit you shall not see the kingdom of God."
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Post by steve spidell on May 28, 2009 8:24:38 GMT -5
Then, why in the world is this discussion even going on?
There is power in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, though:
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. ......
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses........
Anyway, i'll try to stay out of this debate from now on. I know it can get more confusing when more than a couple are debating.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 11:59:35 GMT -5
So baptism by the Holy Spirit must be concluded by immersion in the waters of obedience in order to be saved. You still have not proven this supposition from scriptures. I proved that Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit Baptism on one of my earlier posts but you have completely ignored it. Acts 8:36-39 ...And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”[c] 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. It wasn't until after the eunuch was baptized that he went away rejoicing. Wrong, you have not proved that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized. The eunuch rejoicing does not prove your supposition of water baptism requirement either!
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 12:04:24 GMT -5
Your core problem Jonathan is that you make contrary statements that contradict the Bible. You say, '...there is no power in the water.' Then you say, 'unless you get in the water in obedience to the Gospel... you are not saved.' The earthly water makes the new birth effectual according to your view. I doubt you will be honest enough with yourself to admit that. There's no more power baptism than their is in belief. Neither are said to have power anywhere in the scriptures. I'm sorry that you can't understand this. Without the earthly water, no new birth can take place. Jesus said "Except ye be born of the water and the spirit you shall not see the kingdom of God." We've covered this ground earlier; why won't you just believe what scripture says? Mommy's water will never do, you must have the immersion of the Holy Ghost! Acts 11:15-18 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” We've covered this too, Paul was stating to the JEWS who was he that he could resist God in context of salvation coming to the Gentiles. Now a question if you please: What is the seal of redemption in the New Covenant?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 28, 2009 15:48:38 GMT -5
Wrong, you have not proved that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized. I will copy and paste this one more time. Be sure to read it this time. [/color]( Acts 10:45) has reference to the miraculous impartation of speaking in tongues that was a sign unto the Jews in order to confirm Peter’s words in verse 34 of Acts 10 (Hebrews 2:3,4). [2]The purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism was confirmation not conversion. ( Hebrews 2:3,4) [3]Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit baptism as this was before he heard the words commanded by God that he ought to do in order to be saved ( Acts 10:6,22,33 11:15). [/ul] About Cornelius: Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed to the God of the Bible, and gave alms always (Acts 10:2). (Yet was not saved)Cornelius already knew that: (Starting in verse 37 “These things ye know…”) - God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power (38)
- That Jesus went about doing good, healing and casting out daemons (38)
- Jesus was hanged on a tree (39)
- God raised him up on the third day (40)
- That everyone who believed in his name would receive remission of sins (43) (It is because Cornelius believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that God sent Peter to command him to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. )
Cornelius knew all of this yet was not saved. So much for faith only. Question for you: “Forasmuch, then, as God gave them the same gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” Acts 11:17 Withstand God from doing what?
We've covered this too, Paul was stating to the JEWS who was he that he could resist God in context of salvation coming to the Gentiles. Paul wasn't there. I'll assume you've read the passage and you mean Peter. You proved my point exactly! Peter believed that by refusing Water Baptism, he would be; hindering, stopping, restraining, and forbidding (Greek: Kolyo) God from bringing salvation to the Gentiles. Peter believed Water Baptism did something, why don't you? We've covered this ground earlier; why won't you just believe what scripture says? Mommy's water will never do, you must have the immersion of the Holy Ghost! I've already refuted this. (Reply #33) To which you replied "I don't have to answer to you." The eunuch rejoicing does not prove your supposition of water baptism requirement either! The reason why the eunuch wasn't rejoicing after the scriptures were revealed to him and he believed was because he was not saved. After he was water baptized, he went on his way rejoicing because he was now saved.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 28, 2009 15:55:08 GMT -5
Then, why in the world is this discussion even going on? There is power in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, though: Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. ...... Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses........ Anyway, i'll try to stay out of this debate from now on. I know it can get more confusing when more than a couple are debating. The Holy Ghost has power and he gave miraculous power to the Apostles ( Ye shall receive power...) You have not been baptized with the Holy Ghost and never will be.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 23:34:17 GMT -5
The reason why the eunuch wasn't rejoicing after the scriptures were revealed to him and he believed was because he was not saved. After he was water baptized, he went on his way rejoicing because he was now saved.
Stop adding to God's Word, more presumption.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 23:35:48 GMT -5
The Holy Ghost has power and he gave miraculous power to the Apostles (Ye shall receive power...) You have not been baptized with the Holy Ghost and never will be.
Every word will be judged by God, you are in big trouble young man. Stop lying and the personal attacks and deal with the scriptures I have given you and you have glossed over.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 23:38:39 GMT -5
I've already refuted this. (Reply #33) To which you replied "I don't have to answer to you."
Your interpretation, not refutation.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 23:41:57 GMT -5
Acts 8:36-39
...And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”[c] 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must.
It wasn't until after the eunuch was baptized that he went away rejoicing.
Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must.
You did not answer the question again...please do so.
Why does Phillip say; '...you may.' He did not tell him you must.
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Post by John McGlone on May 28, 2009 23:45:35 GMT -5
What is the seal of the New Covenant?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 29, 2009 7:36:31 GMT -5
What is the seal of the New Covenant? " Study to show thyself approved unto God..." 2 Timothy 2:15 Your interpretation, not refutation. I've also showed the only correct and contextual interpretation I might add. That's why you won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Stop adding to God's Word, more presumption. I've made no presumption. I've only stated the fact. The eunuch had nothing to rejoice about until he got saved. Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. You did not answer the question again...please do so. Why does Phillip say; '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. Because everyone who believes on Jesus Christ has the opportunity to escape the wrath of God. Then he was baptized and went away rejoicing.
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Post by John McGlone on May 29, 2009 9:01:25 GMT -5
What is the seal of the New Covenant? " Study to show thyself approved unto God..." 2 Timothy 2:15 I've also showed the only correct and contextual interpretation I might add. That's why you won't touch it with a ten foot pole. I've made no presumption. I've only stated the fact. The eunuch had nothing to rejoice about until he got saved. Notice Phillip told the Ethiopian, '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. You did not answer the question again...please do so. Why does Phillip say; '...you may.' He did not tell him you must. Because everyone who believes on Jesus Christ has the opportunity to escape the wrath of God. Then he was baptized and went away rejoicing. You still did not answer the 'may' question that makes logical sense. If if was an opportunity as you presume then Phillip would have been lying and should have said, '...you must.' I would like hear your interpretation of the New Covenant, that I may understand your position before I proceed. Will you answer now please? If you would also include what was the sign of the Old Covenant? Thank you. God bless you. John
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