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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 20:07:18 GMT -5
I never said there was power in the water. If you believe there was power in the ark of Noah, then I suppose you can believe there is power in the waters of Baptism. However, by claiming there is power in the ark of Noah or the waters of Baptism you go beyond that which is written as the Bible never gives power to baptism, the ark of Noah, repentance, or belief as they cannot exercise that power. The individual is granted power in which he must chose to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ "Repent ye, and be baptized... for the remission of you sins."Dear Jonathan, Yes you have clearly posted over and again that belief without obedience to the water immersion will not result in an effectual conversion experience. I will ask again is conversion by the Holy Spirit effectual for salvation before we get into the water? I will answer once again; "There's no commandment to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. If you believe we must be baptized in the Holy Ghost, tell us how and supply an example of people being baptized in the Holy Ghost in order to obtain salvation. Be careful to use Bible terms for Bible examples. "If you want a different answer define your question. Define "by" and explain how this conversion your talking about occurs. I've gathered from your post that it's some sort of feel good experience. Cornelius and his whole household were immersed in the Holy Ghost. Nice try, conversion may come with good feelings afterward. But: 2 Cor 7:9-10 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 24, 2009 21:10:19 GMT -5
OK; here it is in a nutshell. The Baptism HE speaks of is:
Hebrews 10:22, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
Ephesians 5:25-26, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the [glow=red,2,300]washing of water by the word,"[/glow]
It is the Baptism of the WORD OF GOD. THE WATER OF THE WORD.
Galatians 3:27, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Christ is the WORD OF GOD.
Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
Following the WORD daily cleanses us from the filth of this evil WORLD. It is the WORD that c lenses our evil hearts. We meditate and are obedient to HIS WORD, the WORD being Jesus.
This is the Baptism. Baptism means cleansing.
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Post by John McGlone on May 24, 2009 21:16:32 GMT -5
Most assuredly I say unto except a man is born of the water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So here is John 3, you are supposing this means water baptism? Is that your proposition? Most assuredly. Here is the context of John 3; a natural birth from a mother by which the water is broken then Jesus compares this with the supernatural rebirth by the Holy Spirit for the new believer. The Holy Spirit is also known as the Living Water. John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Please note also the answer to your previous statement, 'There is no commandment to be baptized in the Holy Ghost...' Here it is shown that a person is required to be saved by the Holy Spirit at the end of the passage. Don't you see how you trade the Living Water immersion for a water ordinance? I agree we should be baptized in water after salvation, not as a seal of salvation.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 0:38:38 GMT -5
That is as you have stated faith in Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are ineffectual for salvation until a person is immersed in water. Grace saves us through faith ( Ephesians 2:9) but faith without works is dead ( James 2:26). The Holy Spirit Regenerates us at the point of Justification and Sanctification upon the completion of the conditions of salvation. Cornelius and his whole household were immersed in the Holy Ghost. [/color]( Acts 10:45) has reference to the miraculous impartation of speaking in tongues that was a sign unto the Jews in order to confirm Peter’s words in verse 34 of Acts 10 (Hebrews 2:3,4). [2]The purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism was confirmation not conversion. ( Hebrews 2:3,4) [3]Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit baptism as this was before he heard the words commanded by God that he ought to do in order to be saved ( Acts 10:6,22,33 11:15). [/ul] About Cornelius: Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed to the God of the Bible, and gave alms always (Acts 10:2). (Yet was not saved)Cornelius already knew that: (Starting in verse 37 “These things ye know…”) - God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power (38)
- That Jesus went about doing good, healing and casting out daemons (38)
- Jesus was hanged on a tree (39)
- God raised him up on the third day (40)
- That everyone who believed in his name would receive remission of sins (43) (It is because Cornelius believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that God sent Peter to command him to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. )
Cornelius knew all of this yet was not saved. So much for faith only. Question for you: “Forasmuch, then, as God gave them the same gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” Acts 11:17 Withstand God from doing what?
Nice try, conversion may come with good feelings afterward. But: 2 Cor 7:9-10 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death Just because you feel forgiven, it doesn’t mean you are.
Here is the context of John 3; a natural birth from a mother Did you forget to lay down your hermeneutical explanation of this passage? All you did was post the passage and say that he’s referring to “natural birth” which is a renegade interpretation of this passage that has been around for less than 500 years. Ask your early church “father’s” what they thought of John 3:5 Here: openairoutreach.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=6749a natural birth from a mother by which the water is broken then Jesus compares this with the supernatural rebirth by the Holy Spirit for the new believer. The Holy Spirit is also known as the Living Water. - Jesus is not comparing. He’s explaining how to be born again.
- Jesus spoke of one birth “Ye must be born again.” When asked what he meant, Jesus responded “except ye be born of the water and the spirit…” You’ve turned the new birth into two different births. 1 John 5:8 the water and the spirit agree in one.
- What word would Jesus have to use for you to believe that he is talking about water?
- If “Water” is referring to “natural birth” then what about babies who have been aborted? Seeing as “Water” is required for entrance into heaven.
- If Jesus meant that you must be born of your mother’s womb then he would have said “Except ye be born of the flesh and the Spirit…” Born of the flesh has reference to Abrahamic inheritance.
- What sort of point would Jesus be making by saying that you have to be born of a woman to be saved?
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Jesus was reproving Nicodemus’ idea that his genealogical inheritance had something to do with his salvation. When Jesus told him that he needed to be born again Nicodemus asked how he could enter into his mother’s womb a second time. Jesus was not confirming Nicodemus’ theology in verse 5 by saying “ye must be born of the water” but instead, Jesus is explaining that Nicodemus who was a Pharisee, member of the Sanhedrin and teacher of Israel must be born of the water which, would be a shock to Nicodemus as he was considered among all people to be saved. Surely the untrained eye can see Jesus’ reference to literal water as He and John the Baptist went all throughout the land baptizing men. Jesus said, “that which is born of the flesh is flesh” ( Verse 6)as a rebuttal to Nicodemus’ Jewish genealogy. Meaning that a fleshly birth has no merit in the Kingdom of God. So much for the "Natural birth" interpretation. Please note also the answer to your previous statement, 'There is no commandment to be baptized in the Holy Ghost...' As I’ve just contextually shown that this passage is referring to water baptism. Hermeneutical rules demand the literal interpretation of “water” unless logically impossible. You have failed to make any case for your renegade interpretation. Thus, Water refers to Water and not embryonic fluids. Remember: You're the one who has to prove that this does not mean water.Here it is shown that a person is required to be saved by the Holy Spirit at the end of the passage. Just because you’re saved by the Holy Spirit it doesn’t mean you’ve been baptized with the Holy Spirit. Don't you see how you trade the Living Water immersion for a water ordinance? I can’t find a “living water immersion” anywhere in the scriptures. Stop preaching out of the encyclopedia. I agree we should be baptized in water after salvation… Agree with whom? The Bible doesn’t even agree with you. Don't you see how much effort you've put into creating a false doctrine? Don't you see the hurdles you have to leap over in order to hold onto your "faith-only" doctrine? (James 2:24,26) Don't you see that you're violating Biblical Hermeneutics?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 0:47:18 GMT -5
OK; here it is in a nutshell. The Baptism HE speaks of is: Hebrews 10:22, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." Ephesians 5:25-26, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the [glow=red,2,300]washing of water by the word,"[/glow] I'm glad you agree that Ephesians 5 is dealing with Water Baptism. It is the Baptism of the WORD OF GOD. THE WATER OF THE WORD. You have to prove that this does not mean water. The logical interpretation is that the preaching of the Gospel instructed us to be baptized. Galatians 3:27, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Christ is the WORD OF GOD. Matthew 16:24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Following the WORD daily cleanses us from the filth of this evil WORLD. It is the WORD that c lenses our evil hearts. We meditate and are obedient to HIS WORD, the WORD being Jesus. This is the Baptism. Baptism means cleansing. What is baptism? Matthew 16:24? Who taught you how to read? Baptism means "Immersion." Why in the world would I believe in this baptism that you've just made up when you can't even give me a reference to it in the scriptures? Why would I believe in your new baptism when I can't even find an account of this baptism taking place? Baptism will always be water baptism unless specifically stated.
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Post by John McGlone on May 25, 2009 6:17:14 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan,
Can you avoid using red please it is difficult for me to read thank you.
Grace saves us through faith (Ephesians 2:9) but faith without works is dead (James 2:26).
The Holy Spirit Regenerates us at the point of Justification and Sanctification upon the completion of the conditions of salvation.
You are reading your definition of conditions of salvation into the Bible.
If is by faith that you are saved...
I am sure you will respond that faith will lead you to water baptism.
I agree with that, but disagree that a person is not saved until they get into the natural water. Water baptism is a Christians response to trusting Christ as Lord and Savior.
Stop your renegade C of C interpretations of God's Holy writ! Please stop with the personal attacks and just prove your points, thank you.
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Post by John McGlone on May 25, 2009 6:23:16 GMT -5
[1]“The Gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 10:45) has reference to the miraculous impartation of speaking in tongues that was a sign unto the Jews in order to confirm Peter’s words in verse 34 of Acts 10 (Hebrews 2:3,4). [2]The purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism was confirmation not conversion. (Hebrews 2:3,4) [3]Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit baptism as this was before he heard the words commanded by God that he ought to do in order to be saved (Acts 10:6,22,33 11:15).
About Cornelius:
Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed to the God of the Bible, and gave alms always (Acts 10:2). (Yet was not saved)
Cornelius already knew that: (Starting in verse 37 “These things ye know…”)
* God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power (38) * That Jesus went about doing good, healing and casting out daemons (38) * Jesus was hanged on a tree (39) * God raised him up on the third day (40) * That everyone who believed in his name would receive remission of sins (43) (It is because Cornelius believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that God sent Peter to command him to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. )
Cornelius knew all of this yet was not saved. So much for faith only.
Question for you: “Forasmuch, then, as God gave them the same gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” Acts 11:17 Withstand God from doing what?
His point is not what you are making but that the Gentiles by faith would be accepted into the household of God.
Acts 10:42-43 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
Peter did not go there to baptize in water but to preach the Word of Life, that is Christ!
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 25, 2009 6:46:11 GMT -5
Ephesians 5:25-26, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the [glow=red,2,300]washing of water by the word[/glow],"
baptizo {bap-tid'-zo} AV - baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2)[glow=red,2,300] to cleanse [/glow]by dipping or submerging, to [glow=red,2,300]wash, to make clean[/glow] with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm
Jonathon, the flesh profits nothing. It is the Spirit that recives from God.
You you cannot understand such things. For the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. It fights against the Spirit.
Water Baptism does nothing to a man. It is only a symbol of the death, we chose with Christ, and the resurrection. Just a symbol.
The Baptism we must be Baptized with, is the Baptism of the Water of the WORD.
Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Read these scriptures very slowly, and you may get it.
The teaching of the WORD (WATER) of God , baptizes (clenses, washes) the hearers, doers.
But you deny the power thereof .
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 25, 2009 6:59:02 GMT -5
Oh; it was Mrs. Landreneau
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 9:06:09 GMT -5
[1]“The Gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 10:45) has reference to the miraculous impartation of speaking in tongues that was a sign unto the Jews in order to confirm Peter’s words in verse 34 of Acts 10 (Hebrews 2:3,4). [2]The purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism was confirmation not conversion. (Hebrews 2:3,4) [3]Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit baptism as this was before he heard the words commanded by God that he ought to do in order to be saved (Acts 10:6,22,33 11:15).
About Cornelius:
Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed to the God of the Bible, and gave alms always (Acts 10:2). (Yet was not saved)
Cornelius already knew that: (Starting in verse 37 “These things ye know…”)
* God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power (38) * That Jesus went about doing good, healing and casting out daemons (38) * Jesus was hanged on a tree (39) * God raised him up on the third day (40) * That everyone who believed in his name would receive remission of sins (43) (It is because Cornelius believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that God sent Peter to command him to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. )
Cornelius knew all of this yet was not saved. So much for faith only.
Question for you: “Forasmuch, then, as God gave them the same gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” Acts 11:17 Withstand God from doing what?His point is not what you are making but that the Gentiles by faith would be accepted into the household of God. Acts 10:42-43 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Peter did not go there to baptize in water but to preach the Word of Life, that is Christ! Dear Mr. McGlone, I’m sorry for using red; I will avoid using it from here on out. I hope you will avoid multiple posts in the future as it is much easier to address your questions on one post. I agree that it is by faith that we are saved but the faith that saves is the faith that obeys. Just as Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave his homeland, the Children of Israel had to blow their trumpets and march around the city of Jericho, etc. so then must we also be baptized for the remission of our sins. You’ve stated, Water baptism is a response to trusting Christ. Which is exactly what 1 Peter 3:21 says. However, you don’t believe that it saves us which directly contradicts the passage.. You also keep blaspheming the Lord’s church. I’d hate to believe anything that the church of Christ doesn’t teach. You’ve made absolutely no respectable contextual points on the conversion of Cornelius and have avoided the questions I asked you in my previous posts. You are being disrespectful in refusing to answer my questions as I’ve continued to address yours time and time again. This post is about exposing PinPointEvangelism.com and having them be held accountable for their words that they’ve spoken in times past. You have refused to be held accountable for the doctrines you uphold. You’ve expressed your arrogance by refusing to give contextual refutations to Biblical passages. If you chose to continue to do so, I will continue to sharply rebuke you. I took the time to outline and highlight my previous post in hopes that you would address and deal with my rebuttal. However, you’ve chosen to ignore me time and time again. You haven’t even studied the topic of water baptism yet you’ve already judged it as being heresy. You’ve approached the topic of water baptism with the attitude; “This cannot be so.” However, if I’ve told you earthly things and you believe not how then shall you understand the rest of the Bible? I know that you and the rest of PinPointEvangelism.com love to read the quotes form the early church and I would encourage you to examine what the early church believed about water baptism. You don’t have to search to far as I’ve posted a link filled with nothing but quotes. I ask you to lay aside your feelings and study this topic with me (as I already asked you in times past.) I hope to hear you address my questions on your following post because if you wait too long there may be too many to address.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 9:16:11 GMT -5
You you cannot understand such things. For the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. It fights against the Spirit. What? Are you going Calvinist on us now? Water Baptism does nothing to a man. It is only a symbol of the death, we chose with Christ, and the resurrection. Just a symbol. Supply those Bible verses. The Baptism we must be Baptized with, is the Baptism of the Water of the WORD. Sir, you have to be kidding me. You're just making this stuff up. As I've asked John McGlone so then I also ask you: Please, stop preaching out of the encyclopedia. Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Read these scriptures very slowly, and you may get it. The teaching of the WORD (WATER) of God , baptizes (clenses, washes) the hearers, doers. But you deny the power thereof . Stop making stuff up. I've taken the courtesy to give Bible address for all that I believe so why do you refuse to do likewise? Use Bible verses for Bible doctrine. Build a case using the scriptures, not your opinion.Jesse wrote in "Rules for Debating." - If you propose a doctrine, propose it from the scriptures.
- If you refute or defend a doctrine, refute or defend it from the scriptures.Friend, you're getting better every time you post something. Keep it coming.
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Post by steve spidell on May 25, 2009 9:48:10 GMT -5
Just curious Jonathan, do you preach by a pool? or a pond? ;D
I think one scripture has been left out of all this, and it is exactly the baptism that saves:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. To say that "baptism" always speaks of "water baptism" is not scriptural. Acts 2:38 "baptized in the name of Jesus" no water mentioned because it's not John's baptism.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
No water mentioned!
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
This mentions water, but was it the water that saved them? NO, it was the ark, which is a type of Christ- the resurrection! What was the water? the judgment of God! Same as when the Israelites went across the Red Sea.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 10:18:50 GMT -5
Just curious Jonathan, do you preach by a pool? or a pond? ;D It doesn't matter if I do or not. Phillip didn't. I think one scripture has been left out of all this, and it is exactly the baptism that saves: 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. This is not Holy Spirit Baptism. To understand what is meant by "by the Holy Spirit" one should read the context. In verse 3 Paul says "...no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit." This does not mean that the Holy Spirit forces a man to say that Jesus is Lord. That would be Holy Spirit confession. Paul's point is that the Holy Spirit revealed the will of God and it is because he revealed the will of God that men can say that Jesus is Lord. The same applies in verse 13. To say that "baptism" always speaks of "water baptism" is not scriptural. Acts 2:38 "baptized in the name of Jesus" no water mentioned because it's not John's baptism. Baptism in the name of Jesus is always with water. Read Acts 10:47. Baptism in the name of Jesus is being used for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38. It is the same and only baptism that Jesus commanded in the great Commission. For this reason we only see men throughout the book of acts being baptized in water with exception of two occasions (Acts 2 and 10) It would be unreasonable to redefine baptism in the epistles after reading the book of Acts. There's only one baptism Ephesians 4:4,5 Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. No water mentioned! Like I said, we only see water baptism within the book of acts with two exceptions. It's unreasonable to redefine baptism in the Epistles unless specifically noted. Every good Bible student should understand the rules of Hermeneutics. 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: This mentions water, but was it the water that saved them? NO, it was the ark, which is a type of Christ- the resurrection! What was the water? the judgment of God! Same as when the Israelites went across the Red Sea. Read the original post and click on the last link for your answer. I gave an irrefutable answer to Kerrigan Skelly and that is why he refused to speak with me.
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Post by steve spidell on May 25, 2009 11:20:24 GMT -5
I didn't say it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit or anything about speaking "by the Holy Spirit", there you go again, twisting words and scripture. The verse says 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" that's pretty plain!
Prove it. Scriptures?
Right, but not in water.
Prove it is the same. Where does it say water in the Great Commission?
Then why are you doing it?
Right, by one Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 25, 2009 11:27:06 GMT -5
Jonathan; when reading your posts on everything you write, grieves me sore deep within. You are very sarcastic, mean and evil in your replies to others. I have replied to what I see in the scriptures of what it teaches about baptism here. But you respond with little phrases to push my buttons. Trying to belittle me somehow. OK Mr. Pride, I will not respond to you so that you do not sin towards me. I have learned after many years that trying to teach a prideful man is not profitable at all. God will have to humble you . And I pray HE does.
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Post by John McGlone on May 25, 2009 12:02:51 GMT -5
[1]“The Gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 10:45) has reference to the miraculous impartation of speaking in tongues that was a sign unto the Jews in order to confirm Peter’s words in verse 34 of Acts 10 (Hebrews 2:3,4). [2]The purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism was confirmation not conversion. (Hebrews 2:3,4) [3]Cornelius was not saved at the point of Holy Spirit baptism as this was before he heard the words commanded by God that he ought to do in order to be saved (Acts 10:6,22,33 11:15).
About Cornelius:
Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed to the God of the Bible, and gave alms always (Acts 10:2). (Yet was not saved)
Cornelius already knew that: (Starting in verse 37 “These things ye know…”)
* God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power (38) * That Jesus went about doing good, healing and casting out daemons (38) * Jesus was hanged on a tree (39) * God raised him up on the third day (40) * That everyone who believed in his name would receive remission of sins (43) (It is because Cornelius believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that God sent Peter to command him to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. )
Cornelius knew all of this yet was not saved. So much for faith only.
Question for you: “Forasmuch, then, as God gave them the same gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” Acts 11:17 Withstand God from doing what?His point is not what you are making but that the Gentiles by faith would be accepted into the household of God. Acts 10:42-43 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Peter did not go there to baptize in water but to preach the Word of Life, that is Christ! Dear Mr. McGlone, I’m sorry for using red; I will avoid using it from here on out. I hope you will avoid multiple posts in the future as it is much easier to address your questions on one post. I agree that it is by faith that we are saved but the faith that saves is the faith that obeys. Just as Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave his homeland, the Children of Israel had to blow their trumpets and march around the city of Jericho, etc. so then must we also be baptized for the remission of our sins. You’ve stated, Water baptism is a response to trusting Christ. Which is exactly what 1 Peter 3:21 says. However, you don’t believe that it saves us which directly contradicts the passage.. You also keep blaspheming the Lord’s church. I’d hate to believe anything that the church of Christ doesn’t teach. You’ve made absolutely no respectable contextual points on the conversion of Cornelius and have avoided the questions I asked you in my previous posts. You are being disrespectful in refusing to answer my questions as I’ve continued to address yours time and time again. This post is about exposing PinPointEvangelism.com and having them be held accountable for their words that they’ve spoken in times past. You have refused to be held accountable for the doctrines you uphold. You’ve expressed your arrogance by refusing to give contextual refutations to Biblical passages. If you chose to continue to do so, I will continue to sharply rebuke you. I took the time to outline and highlight my previous post in hopes that you would address and deal with my rebuttal. However, you’ve chosen to ignore me time and time again. You haven’t even studied the topic of water baptism yet you’ve already judged it as being heresy. You’ve approached the topic of water baptism with the attitude; “This cannot be so.” However, if I’ve told you earthly things and you believe not how then shall you understand the rest of the Bible? I know that you and the rest of PinPointEvangelism.com love to read the quotes form the early church and I would encourage you to examine what the early church believed about water baptism. You don’t have to search to far as I’ve posted a link filled with nothing but quotes. I ask you to lay aside your feelings and study this topic with me (as I already asked you in times past.) I hope to hear you address my questions on your following post because if you wait too long there may be too many to address. Dear Jonathan, I don't answer to you Jonathan. As Guy commented and I agree with him, your caustic attitude does nothing to help your case. It in fact hinders many from being persuaded of your doctrine. I must admit the ECF have a seemingly compelling argument for water baptism as a condition of salvation. Especially Justin Martyr's writings. But, two points to counter that; 1. ECF is not scripture 2. ALL of the ECF does not agree with you suppositions about baptism. For example, Justin Martyr also wrote these which contradict your suppositions of water baptism as a condition of salvation: ECF Vol 1, DIALOGUE OF JUSTIN, PHILOSOPHER AND MARTYR, WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, CH XIV, RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT PLACED IN JEWISH RITES, BUT IN THE CONVERSION OF THE HEART GIVEN IN BAPTISM BY CHRIST. Pg 201 "By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God's people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred; and, lo! the body is pure. For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. ECF Ch XIX, Dialogue of Justin Martyr with Trypho the Jew pg 412 Nor do we receive that useless baptism of cisterns, for it has nothing to do with this baptism of life. Wherefore also God has announced that you have forsaken Him, the living fountain, and digged for your selves broken cisterns which can hold no water. Even you, who are the circumcised according to the flesh, have need of our circumcision; but we, having the latter, do not require the former. God bless you. John P.S. If you could please stick to one point per dialogue it would be helpful, I don't do machine gun copy/paste dialogue, thanks!
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 12:48:22 GMT -5
Dear Mr. McGlone, I’m sorry for using red; I will avoid using it from here on out. I hope you will avoid multiple posts in the future as it is much easier to address your questions on one post. I agree that it is by faith that we are saved but the faith that saves is the faith that obeys. Just as Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave his homeland, the Children of Israel had to blow their trumpets and march around the city of Jericho, etc. so then must we also be baptized for the remission of our sins. You’ve stated, Water baptism is a response to trusting Christ. Which is exactly what 1 Peter 3:21 says. However, you don’t believe that it saves us which directly contradicts the passage.. You also keep blaspheming the Lord’s church. I’d hate to believe anything that the church of Christ doesn’t teach. You’ve made absolutely no respectable contextual points on the conversion of Cornelius and have avoided the questions I asked you in my previous posts. You are being disrespectful in refusing to answer my questions as I’ve continued to address yours time and time again. This post is about exposing PinPointEvangelism.com and having them be held accountable for their words that they’ve spoken in times past. You have refused to be held accountable for the doctrines you uphold. You’ve expressed your arrogance by refusing to give contextual refutations to Biblical passages. If you chose to continue to do so, I will continue to sharply rebuke you. I took the time to outline and highlight my previous post in hopes that you would address and deal with my rebuttal. However, you’ve chosen to ignore me time and time again. You haven’t even studied the topic of water baptism yet you’ve already judged it as being heresy. You’ve approached the topic of water baptism with the attitude; “This cannot be so.” However, if I’ve told you earthly things and you believe not how then shall you understand the rest of the Bible? I know that you and the rest of PinPointEvangelism.com love to read the quotes form the early church and I would encourage you to examine what the early church believed about water baptism. You don’t have to search to far as I’ve posted a link filled with nothing but quotes. I ask you to lay aside your feelings and study this topic with me (as I already asked you in times past.) I hope to hear you address my questions on your following post because if you wait too long there may be too many to address. Dear Jonathan, I don't answer to you Jonathan. As Guy commented and I agree with him, your caustic attitude does nothing to help your case. It in fact hinders many from being persuaded of your doctrine. I must admit the ECF have a seemingly compelling argument for water baptism as a condition of salvation. Especially Justin Martyr's writings. But, two points to counter that; 1. ECF is not scripture 2. ALL of the ECF does not agree with you suppositions about baptism. For example, Justin Martyr also wrote these which contradict your suppositions of water baptism as a condition of salvation: ECF Vol 1, DIALOGUE OF JUSTIN, PHILOSOPHER AND MARTYR, WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, CH XIV, RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT PLACED IN JEWISH RITES, BUT IN THE CONVERSION OF THE HEART GIVEN IN BAPTISM BY CHRIST. Pg 201 "By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God's people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred; and, lo! the body is pure. For this is the symbolic significance of unleavened bread, that you do not commit the old deeds of wicked leaven. ECF Ch XIX, Dialogue of Justin Martyr with Trypho the Jew pg 412 Nor do we receive that useless baptism of cisterns, for it has nothing to do with this baptism of life. Wherefore also God has announced that you have forsaken Him, the living fountain, and digged for your selves broken cisterns which can hold no water. Even you, who are the circumcised according to the flesh, have need of our circumcision; but we, having the latter, do not require the former. God bless you. John P.S. If you could please stick to one point per dialogue it would be helpful, I don't do machine gun copy/paste dialogue, thanks! "rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith." Titus 1:13 You're so rebellious and arrogant, refusing to study the scriptures. Your heathen like denial of scripture has been made manifest on this thread for the public to see. Sir, if you don't get this right, you will suffer eternal torment. You and Rhema Guy have violated Matthew 7:1-5. You have violated 1 Peter 3:15. You have refused to give an answer. Thank you for replying the way that you have. You have proven my point in this thread. PinpointEvangelism.com's teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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Post by steve spidell on May 25, 2009 13:51:22 GMT -5
Actually, Jonathan, it's your comments that have shown us all what spirit you are of! And i hope i can speak for the others, we will be praying for you.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 25, 2009 14:30:03 GMT -5
Actually, Jonathan, it's your comments that have shown us all what spirit you are of! And i hope i can speak for the others, we will be praying for you. Sir, have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
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Post by steve spidell on May 25, 2009 15:43:40 GMT -5
Jonathan, it's the way you do it. Belittling others because they don't see the scripture the way that you do? Come on! we can do better than that!
This isn't open air preaching to sinners where you are trying to get a crowd, we should be mature Christians (and adults) when discussing these issues amongst ourselves and you have failed to do that.
Besides, you came on this MB making yourself an enemy, we didn't instigate you, we haven't called you our enemy, you just seem to want to be.
You don't have to be an enemy for me to pray for you.
Bro. John has asked you to reply with the same grace that has been shown to you and you failed, plain and simple. I think everyone has seen that.
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Post by John McGlone on May 25, 2009 22:01:24 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, You question my salvation? I claim Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I received Him with godly sorrow that led me to repentance almost 14 years ago. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. You have judged me unrighteously and you need to repent and seek forgiveness.
It is just such a shame that followers of Christ can not be patient enough to try and reason out their faith. I have not questioned your salvation Jonathan, just your doctrine.
God bless you.
John
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 26, 2009 6:17:38 GMT -5
Dear Jonathan, You question my salvation? I claim Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I received Him with godly sorrow that led me to repentance almost 14 years ago. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. You have judged me unrighteously and you need to repent and seek forgiveness. It is just such a shame that followers of Christ can not be patient enough to try and reason out their faith. I have not questioned your salvation Jonathan, just your doctrine. God bless you. John Sir, read Matthew 7:21-23. You cannot be saved outside of the church of Christ which you have blasphemed throughout this forum. The reason you won't study the scriptures is because you believe that you're already saved and therefore can't be wrong about your salvation. I dare to offer my time in order to show you from the scriptures that you are not and you cast stones at me. "It is just such a shame that followers of Christ can not be patient enough to try and reason out their faith. " You've directed this comment toward me. However, you claim to be a follower of Christ and have not the patient to search the scriptures as you also said, pertaining to the scriptures: "I don't have to answer to you." Your lack of patients has been revealed as you were not patient enough to stay on topic. Instead once I refuted your argument, you moved onto something different. That's disrespectful. We are dealing with soul's here and you don't even have the decency to prove what you believe with the scriptures. You sir are a true well without water as you have no scripture to defend what you believe.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 26, 2009 7:04:33 GMT -5
Jonathan, you are a wicked lil man. I have never encountered such evil as you. You have frogs within you mouth. Your tongue speaks such perverse accusations, it astonishes me. You are of the same that is the accuser of the brethren. Pride is your dinner day and nite. You must belittle others to make yourself seem big. You have knowledge of Christ, but surely you do do not Know Christ. You are puffed up because of knowledge that you have. But because the stink of pride and hatred in your heart, has darkened the True Revelation of WHOM JESUS IS for a TRUTH. Your wickedness is as a stink unto the THRONE of GOD. You do not want to teach others of Christ. You rather SHOW others of your knowledge. You are a little wicked man. But you will not hear. Pride has clogged your ears. God judge between you and I.
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Post by tonyholland on May 26, 2009 10:12:03 GMT -5
This is one of the nastier little views of some sects of the C of C which isn't talked about very often. Some of the more progressive C of C churches have abandoned this, but many still remain.
In a nutshell, the only people who are saved are those who agree with C of C doctrine.
Jonathon....out of curiosity. Most Baptist believe that one should be baptized after they are saved.
If they are Baptized, are they saved even though they don't believe it is necessary for salvation?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 26, 2009 13:52:19 GMT -5
Jonathan, you are a wicked lil man. I have never encountered such evil as you. You have frogs within you mouth. Your tongue speaks such perverse accusations, it astonishes me. You are of the same that is the accuser of the brethren. Pride is your dinner day and nite. You must belittle others to make yourself seem big. You have knowledge of Christ, but surely you do do not Know Christ. You are puffed up because of knowledge that you have. But because the stink of pride and hatred in your heart, has darkened the True Revelation of WHOM JESUS IS for a TRUTH. Your wickedness is as a stink unto the THRONE of GOD. You do not want to teach others of Christ. You rather SHOW others of your knowledge. You are a little wicked man. But you will not hear. Pride has clogged your ears. God judge between you and I. Are you judging me? Ye hypocrite.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 26, 2009 13:56:10 GMT -5
This is one of the nastier little views of some sects of the C of C which isn't talked about very often. Some of the more progressive C of C churches have abandoned this, but many still remain. In a nutshell, the only people who are saved are those who agree with C of C doctrine. Jonathon....out of curiosity. Most Baptist believe that one should be baptized after they are saved. If they are Baptized, are they saved even though they don't believe it is necessary for salvation? No one is saved unless they've been baptized for the remission of sins. After one is baptized for the remission of their sins he must remain faithful till' death. (Rev 2:10) One must also be a member of the church of Christ. Jesus did not die for the baptist church.
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Post by tonyholland on May 26, 2009 15:19:51 GMT -5
...and here we have the reason that this debate is pointless. You just as well be debating Shirley Phelps.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 26, 2009 16:26:43 GMT -5
...and here we have the reason that this debate is pointless. You just as well be debating Shirley Phelps. Shirley Phelps doesn't have scripture for what she believes.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on May 26, 2009 18:59:46 GMT -5
Jonathan, you are a wicked lil man. I have never encountered such evil as you. You have frogs within you mouth. Your tongue speaks such perverse accusations, it astonishes me. You are of the same that is the accuser of the brethren. Pride is your dinner day and nite. You must belittle others to make yourself seem big. You have knowledge of Christ, but surely you do do not Know Christ. You are puffed up because of knowledge that you have. But because the stink of pride and hatred in your heart, has darkened the True Revelation of WHOM JESUS IS for a TRUTH. Your wickedness is as a stink unto the THRONE of GOD. You do not want to teach others of Christ. You rather SHOW others of your knowledge. You are a little wicked man. But you will not hear. Pride has clogged your ears. God judge between you and I. Are you judging me? Ye hypocrite. Matthew 7:2, " For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." You first judged me before I opened my mouth against you in any way. You can speak against me in any way you like. But it hurts my heart when you speak about others who I believe to be in Apple of The Lord's Eye. Psalms 17:8-10, "Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings, From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about. They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly."
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Post by John McGlone on May 26, 2009 23:04:15 GMT -5
Sir, read Matthew 7:21-23.
You cannot be saved outside of the church of Christ which you have blasphemed throughout this forum. The reason you won't study the scriptures is because you believe that you're already saved and therefore can't be wrong about your salvation. I dare to offer my time in order to show you from the scriptures that you are not and you cast stones at me.
"It is just such a shame that followers of Christ can not be patient enough to try and reason out their faith. "
You've directed this comment toward me. However, you claim to be a follower of Christ and have not the patient to search the scriptures as you also said, pertaining to the scriptures:
"I don't have to answer to you."
Your lack of patients has been revealed as you were not patient enough to stay on topic. Instead once I refuted your argument, you moved onto something different. That's disrespectful.
We are dealing with soul's here and you don't even have the decency to prove what you believe with the scriptures.
You sir are a true well without water as you have no scripture to defend what you believe.
Dear Jonathan,
Because your 'church' is named, church of Christ; does not make it so.
The true 'Church of Christ' is spotless, blameless, holy and obedient to the gospel and commandments of Jesus Christ. These are individuals who are knit together in love for the Truth of Jesus, His Word, and for the brethren.
I am not persuaded of your position, it is too bad you could not have been a bit more mature in your communications. I almost am persuaded that within a few day, there won't be much happening here. All the Christians, that I know of, here have been immersed in water as an outward expression of an inward change in their hearts and minds. What are you trying to prove, that we must be part of the 'c of C'?
I have dared to spend my precious time interacting with someone who's perception is always right, who can not receive the possibility they might be wrong. I am finished now Jonathan.
God bless you.
John
P.S. I don't have any patients, I am not a doctor. I seek to have more patience as it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
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