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Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 17:11:37 GMT -5
BENIAH: Does the Lord of the Universe NOT ABHOR those who do evil?
He abhors those who know the truth and refuse to repent in spite of the Truth.
If your statement were taken at face value, then I can confidently say you're a child of the devil.
God doesn't save those He hates; He saves those who hate HIM.
Do we preach a "God loves you...God is fluffy....your sin is OK" message?
NO.
However, your message is worse than Robert Shuller and Benny Hinn.
The aforementioned turn people on to a FALSE god while you turn people off to the BIBLE God; you know, the God who LOVES and is MERCIFUL and is FULL of Grace and Lovingkindness.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Deut 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Eph 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
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Post by evanschaible on Aug 14, 2006 17:20:06 GMT -5
Dan,
you reap what you sow. If you sow hatred toward God by living in rebellion and disregarding His word, your conscience and the testimony of nature, then you reap hatred from a perfect, holy, righteous and just God. But God is also merciful and loving and will forgive those who have sowed hatred and reaped the same. Just a thought.
Evan
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 19:15:47 GMT -5
Dan, you reap what you sow. If you sow hatred toward God by living in rebellion and disregarding His word, your conscience and the testimony of nature, then you reap hatred from a perfect, holy, righteous and just God. But God is also merciful and loving and will forgive those who have sowed hatred and reaped the same. Just a thought. Evan That's my entire point, Brother Evan... I believe God DOES hate; 2 thessalonians and Romans 1 and the examples of King Saul and Esau... Note though, that those God hates are ONLY those who KNEW the Truth yet refused what they KNEW of God and His Word. Those who are sinful by nature yet have not heard nor known of the Gospel are not hated; they are called. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Deut 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Eph 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 20:53:37 GMT -5
I am not asking you for a list of scriptures on love. When did I ever refute that?
I am asking for you to prove from scriptures that to say God Abhors certain people is unscriptural.
In the last post you wrote "I believe God hates those who go around saying God hates you".
First off, that is not what the sign says. Second of all, again I am not interested in what you believe unless you can prove it to me from the bible.
You say you know from the Bible that God abhors some people but then turn around and say that it is unbiblical and sinful to put it on a sign.
Why do you think all these homosexuals are ignorant heathens living in far off lands who have never heard the name of Christ?
If the book of Romans is true, then homosexuals are people who have made a deliberate choice to refuse the knowledge of God.
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Post by bullhornbob on Aug 14, 2006 22:06:15 GMT -5
Note though, that those God hates are ONLY those who KNEW the Truth yet refused what they KNEW of God and His Word. Those who are sinful by nature yet have not heard nor known of the Gospel are not hated; they are called. Dan, if you could elaborate a little on these two statements, I would appreciate it.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Aug 14, 2006 22:17:06 GMT -5
RevK:
I know what you mean Kerrigan, I have preached before with other people's sign's and I found them to be quite a distraction. While the signs had a time and place, I think I finally rolled them up and put them away. I like our signs that we have, simple and straightforward, allows us to preach a broad spectrum of topics without the sign being a distraction. Who could object to "TRUST JESUS" or "FREEDOM IN CHRIST"? Kerrigan, your whole post expresses my thoughts very well.
Dan, in all fairness, you do tend to say something is or is not scriptural and then do not give a reasoned biblical defense of your statement when challenged. Whether I agree with you or not, I think Micah is giving you a legitimate question. Much love brother.
Miles
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 15, 2006 10:12:12 GMT -5
I simply believe, in assumption I see, that my statements are Bible BASED; however, I see why it appears that I make them without references.... though in my mind as I write I have the verses and Scriptural pattern in my thoughts while I type.
I'll try to keep in mind to list the references...
Brother Miach, I did not say it is unScriptural.... at least what I meant was it is unBiblical to do it to the general public...God DOES hate, as I have stated and show below....yet to say preach a general message to ALL with a sign on the street? THAT is unBiblical, because God does NOT hate all of those people; thus, by saying he does, it is not Scriptural.
Bullhorn, here is what I meant by God hating only a certain group..those who KNEW the Truth and REFUSED to repent:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d**ned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:26-32
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 15, 2006 11:35:00 GMT -5
biblethumper,
According to Romans 1, homosexuals are as a group those who have refused the truth of God willfully. So according to you, God abhors homosexuals. Yes He loves them in a general way of willing their highest good, and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
As far as His attitude towards them, it is one of digust and abhorrence. You cannot separate the sinner from his sin. The sin has no character without the sinner who commits the act.
So if you go to a homosexual parade where the MAJORITY of people are homosexuals or those who justify homosexuality and defend it (He that justifies the wicked and he that condemns the just even they both are an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD- PROVERBS 17:15), then a banner with a "God Abhors You" on it is perfectly biblical and proper for that event. Not only the homosexuals are an abomination to God but also those who defend it.
Yes, I agree (and Ruben would also agree with you), that in most other settings it would be totally inappropriate. Ruben has even cautioned me not to preach about certain sins in certain environments because he did not think it would be appropriate.
Very specific banners or signs are not usually good for campus preaching or general preaching, however, at a certain event where a certain sin is being celebrated and glamorized it is very effective, more so than general banners.
Most homosexuals would give you a thumbs up for carrying a "Trust Jesus" banner if they did not hear your whole message.
Once they agree their sin and they have become an abomination to God, then we can change our emphasis.
I don't even think most of you guys agree with what you are saying that the message should always be the same regardless of the audience.
I do not at all agree with that. Jesus preached a different message to every church in the Book of Revelation. He said to cast not your pearls before swine and give not that which is holy unto dogs. Of some have compassion making a difference and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
The message is totally dependent on where the audience is at. Hardened, brazen, callous sinners need a different message than convicted sinners. Religious hypocrites need a different message than open sinners.
We are not preaching what they want, but what they need. What they need they often do not like.
Finney said as he went around and preached all the churches were steeped in hyper-calvinism, so he head to preach messages emphasizing man's responsibility.
After preaching at those types of events many years, Ruben has learned the general mindset of the audience in these places and preaches accordingly to counteract their hiding places, refuges of lies, excuses, deceptions, pride, and idolatry.
Campus preachers do not preach with the same emphasis on every campus because every campus is different. Sometimes it depends on what part of the country you are in.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 15, 2006 13:11:47 GMT -5
I am sure that you aren't referring to me concerning...
...but I just want to say that I agree with you on what you are saying about the message being different at different places and with different crowds...wholeheartedly agree! This is what I said earlier in this thread:
The part that I believe DOES remain the same is this: REPENT of ALL Sin and Turn in FAITH to Jesus Christ and HE will Save you. There are certain things that I would say everywhere and there are certain parts of my message that will stay the same no matter where I go. I would never cast pearls before swine. And by telling someone about the love of Jesus Christ through the Cross and about the salvation available to them, I don't think I am. Why? Because I always precede that with heavy preaching on sin and the law and telling them that there is no forgivness of sin without repentance! I understand that at certain places and with certain crowds that you may not emphasize the good news very much at all because most are not humble. But, what about the one or two people who are listening who are humbled that we just don't see because of everything that is going on around us? Even at homosexual shame parades, surely there may be someone there who has fallen under the conviction of the Holy Spirit as a preacher preaches. God forbid that we preach the Law and against Sin and then leave them there brother! We must tell them the way of escape! That is where the Gospel, the Good News, comes in. And I don't think you disagree with this or that Reuben would disagree with this. I am just clarifying what I meant by the message being the "same." God Bless...
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 15, 2006 13:44:40 GMT -5
God doesn't save those whom He hates; He saves those who hate HIM.
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Post by evanschaible on Aug 15, 2006 13:52:22 GMT -5
This is interesting in the light that you agreed with my quote. If they hate Him, they reap what they sow. Isnt that right? Not to nitpick as I know what you mean, but that is a self contradictory quote. ;D I know what you mean though brother.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 15, 2006 14:17:27 GMT -5
Revk,
I don't really know who I was referring to above, all I remember is I thought I read from a few different people that the message is always the same.
Since you clarified above, I agree with you.
I think one of the erroneous assumptions (maybe it just seems this way to me or maybe it is actually true), is Ruben does not preach the other side at these parades and events which he does.
Compared to a lot of preachers, Ruben is not all that severe in his actual message. His message is a very basic one of repent of all sin and put faith in Jesus Christ. His message is very simple and Jesus centered.
I would say that Ruben is better than most at knowing how to get and keep the attention of the crowd and controlling the crowd.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 15, 2006 15:43:34 GMT -5
Micah, I don't know much about Reuben and have never heard him preach a full open air message, but I would love to. Anywhere I could go to find such a thing? I am sure there are a lot of misperceptions out there about certain open air preachers. I believe that I was involved in those when I first started open air preaching. From that point on I started investigating the facts for myself and made sure I didn't assume anything of anyone...
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 15, 2006 16:20:03 GMT -5
This is interesting in the light that you agreed with my quote. If they hate Him, they reap what they sow. Isnt that right? Not to nitpick as I know what you mean, but that is a self contradictory quote. ;D I know what you mean though brother. It cannot be contradictory, bro hehehe Why? God never saved satan, saul or esau; hence, the first part, "God doesn;t save those whom He hates" is correct. Also, we love Him because he FIRST loved us...clarifying the second part Cheers.
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Post by bullhornbob on Aug 15, 2006 21:27:28 GMT -5
Bullhorn, here is what I meant by God hating only a certain group..those who KNEW the Truth and REFUSED to repent: 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d**ned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Romans 1:26-32 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Dan, I still do not see how you can say what you did and justify it by those two scriptures. Now I will quote you: "Note though, that those God hates are ONLY those who KNEW the Truth yet refused what they KNEW of God and His Word".And: "Those who are sinful by nature yet have not heard nor known of the Gospel are not hated; they are called".The scriptures you quoted are only partially applicable to your broad statements. The Psalms are full of God hating His enemies. A whole lot of God's enemies died in the OT. Has the OT God split into the NT God again? No! Colossians calls mankind God's enemy. God is storing up his wrath against the day of wrath. He has given us a preview of the outpouring of His fierce wrath in Revelation! Now, I think we should ask ourselves: The things that God hates, do we truly hate them?
Are we truly grieved by the things that grieve God?
Do we love God with ALL, and love that which he loves?The word clearly spells out the specifics of what God hates, and loves, but the proof is in our obedience to the scriptures. When we can truthfully say, without hesitation, YES to those questions above, then we can elaborate on what God loves and hates. Dan, I believe you have placed your opinion above the main scriptural teachings of those verses. You did not seem to follow context. Do you care to elaborate a little more? Maybe I am misunderstanding you?
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 15, 2006 21:35:49 GMT -5
Bullhornbob Said: Dan, I believe you have placed your opinion above the main scriptural teachings of those verses. You did not seem to follow context. Brother, I gave Biblical reference and Biblical preference...above my opinion. Note I did not at any time claim that "God doesn't hate"... I claimed, Scripturally, that He hates CERTAIN groups, as my previous posts show. I simply post here that it is NOT Biblical to run around in a general setting telling people in hearing distance, "Hey bud! God hates you! Wanna get saved now?" God LOVES those in the world...as John 3:16 states. I'm wondering, Bullhorn.... would it be ok if I continually claimed God hated YOU? Of course you would then possibly list your "10 reasons why I'm loved by God" post, due to your "obedience to the Lord". You see, if the tables were turned, you'd be as shocked as the guy hearing it on the street. It appears the only ones God DOESN'T hate here are the saved ones... Unfortunately, many fail to remember that at one time they were NOT saved and God's LOVE reached out in Salvation. The Lord quickened my heart with a word, and I stand on that word, which is based on 1 John 4:19, and such a sthis, along with the Scriptures posted above, speak more than any further elaboration on my part God doesn't save those whom He hates; He saves those who hate HIM.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 15, 2006 21:42:25 GMT -5
RevK,
I am probably the worst person to ask about where to find videos of people preaching.
All the clips and things you guys post on here I never get to watch any of them because I have dial up computer.
Yes, you are right about all those misconceptions. I remember when I first started open air preaching I used to search the internet for information and I saw all those pictures of Ruben. I didn't quite know what to think.
Later on I read Jed Smock's book and then went and preached with Brother Jed at the University of South Florida in Tampa (my wife's alma mater). I was very impressed with Brother Jed's book and it greatly impacted and stirred me.
While I was preaching with them, I heard them talking very favorably of Ruben Israel and learned they were good friends with him (in fact he is vice president of Campus Ministry USA-Jed's Ministry).
After that trip I began posting on Jed's board and met Ruben there. Ruben invited me to come to Los Angeles to preach with him and I went.
When you meet and preach with Ruben in person you get a totally different impression than you do of the pictures you see of Ruben preaching at homosexual parades. It is also impossible to judge the effectiveness of preaching with Ruben at these events just by looking at pictures or short clips.
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Post by bullhornbob on Aug 15, 2006 22:29:41 GMT -5
Bullhornbob Said: Dan, I believe you have placed your opinion above the main scriptural teachings of those verses. You did not seem to follow context. Brother, I gave Biblical reference and Biblical preference...above my opinion. Note I did not at any time claim that "God doesn't hate"... I claimed, Scripturally, that He hates CERTAIN groups, as my previous posts show. I simply post here that it is NOT Biblical to run around in a general setting telling people in hearing distance, "Hey bud! God hates you! Wanna get saved now?" God LOVES those in the world...as John 3:16 states. I'm wondering, Bullhorn.... would it be ok if I continually claimed God hated YOU? Of course you would then possibly list your "10 reasons why I'm loved by God" post, due to your "obedience to the Lord". You see, if the tables were turned, you'd be as shocked as the guy hearing it on the street. It appears the only ones God DOESN'T hate here are the saved ones... Unfortunately, many fail to remember that at one time they were NOT saved and God's LOVE reached out in Salvation. The Lord quickened my heart with a word, and I stand on that word, which is based on 1 John 4:19, and such a sthis, along with the Scriptures posted above, speak more than any further elaboration on my part God doesn't save those whom He hates; He saves those who hate HIM. Now now, Dan. You seem to be getting a little hot under the collar. You did say this: Note though, that those God hates are ONLY those who KNEW the Truth yet refused what they KNEW of God and His Word.
Those who are sinful by nature yet have not heard nor known of the Gospel are not hated; they are called.I am simply saying that your references do not justify your statements. Now, who in the world is running around saying "God hates you buddy...now, do you wanna get saved"? I never insinuated that even remotely. Also, God so LOVED (past tense, look it up) the world...as John 3:16 states. God does not love the world, Dan. Please refenece I John 2:15-17. This is why most debates start in open-air settings with other so-called christians. They do not have a biblical understanding of God and love. It is a worldly, fleshly understanding of God and His love. Now, are you saying all of the OT enemies of God were aware that the God of Israel was willing to let them live if they only converted to Judaism? Remember, you said God only hates those who knew the the Truth yet refused what they KNEW of God and His Word. God does not only hate certain groups. There are only two groups of people in the world: Children of God, and children of the devil. God loves the one, and hates the others. He loves the obedient and faithful, and despises the disobedient and wicked. This is scriptural, Dan. I think you may have overlooked my complete post. Did you read it in it's entirety? I think you may misinterpret my motives. I am not trying to prove you wrong, Dan. I am merely stating my disagreement with your statements being scriptural. And, if God is only calling those who don't know the gospel, why do they go to hell when they die? The two portions of scripture do not back up what you are saying, Dan. You may be able to pick out a piece and say it means what YOU mean, but you cannot say it justifies your broad terminology. And people can claim God hates me if they want. It does not move me in the least. I am sure of my position in the Lord Jesus. And please, Dan, know that I am just trying to get you to explain your use of those two portions of scripture to back up your statements. Just cutting and pasting them does not give you the right to say they back up your statements. And, I humbly disagree with your statement "God doesn't save those whom He hates; He saves those who hate HIM". God will not save those He hates, and he cannot save those who hate Him. It is a matter of repentance, Dan. It is a coming into agreement with God, and a lifestyle change, a heart change. By faith. In full agreement with God's provision for hatred against him. Dan, God is angry with the wicked every day, and He hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5, 7:11). And, He loves those who love (obey) him (John 14:21).
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Post by bullhornbob on Aug 15, 2006 22:48:08 GMT -5
and such a sthis, along with the Scriptures posted above, speak more than any further elaboration on my part . Dan, does this mean you don't want to continue with our conversation?
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Post by menorah on Aug 16, 2006 0:29:08 GMT -5
Where does it say in the word we are to go and preach God Hates you in whatever form Banners or speach? Repent yes. Truth and Mercy.
"Mercy and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other," (Psalms 85:10).
God has linked certain things together which should not be separated. Faith is seen by good works of obedience. (Jas. 2:14-26); Love is manifested through obedience (Jno. 14:15); Christ is the Head of His church (Eph. 5:23); and Reverence toward diety is displayed through acts of worship (Jno. 4:24). These are things God has put together.
And, in Psalms 85:10, "mercy and truth have met together," and "righteousness and peace" are likewise joined. What do these connections tell us about the person of Deity?
It is a mistake to regard God as a multi-personality being. When we study His attributes and characteristics, there may be a tendency to divide the Supreme Person of Deity into "blocks" of character - His power, then (separate from that), His love, etc. But this isn't the way God is. He is a unified whole person, each attribute connected to the other.
God's truth and mercy are compatible. That means, there is nothing about God's origination and His revelation of truth that interferes with His mercy. Both are part of the whole character of God. Likewise, His righteousness and peace enjoy perfect harmony.
It follows - if someone suggests that there is some sort of conflict between God's mercy and God's truth, that suggestion ought to be quickly rejected. All theories, doctrines or arguments which array one quality of God against another are in error, regardless of the debater, the cause or the consequence.
For instance, the mercy of God which brings about pardon for sin is wrought through the message, the gospel of Christ. God's mercy is active in forgiving us, but this mercy is executed through the message, the truth of the gospel. No conflict!
Also, the demands of God's perfect righteousness were met by the Savior's meritorious death, "the righteous for the unrighteous." As a result, sinners can be reconciled to God, thus "making peace." [1 Pet. 3:18; Eph. 2:14-22] In the gospel plan of salvation, revealed in the New Testament of Jesus Christ, there is "Mercy and Truth" meeting each other, and righteousness and peace kissing each other.
But perhaps you've heard something like this: I know what the truth (of God's Word) says, but I believe mercy demands that we tolerate violation. This pits mercy against truth; it actually places mercy above truth. Objecting to the application of truth on grounds of mercy is not plausible! Objecting to righteousness on grounds of peace is likewise invalid. In God's person and in God's perfect revelation, mercy and truth meet; righteousness and peace kiss.
It is commendable to "pursue peace with all people," but the same verse says we must also pursue "holiness, without which no one will see the Lord," (Heb. 12:14). Christians are to "be diligent to be found by Him in peace," but the same verse adds: "without spot and blameless," (2 Pet. 3:14). The "wisdom that is from above is" peaceable but it is "first pure," (Jas. 3:17). It is a mistake, therefore, to isolate peace from other virtues and qualities and build some kind of "loop-hole" or permissive argument on the grounds of peace alone!
"Affection" and "mercy" motivates us to be likeminded (Phil. 2:1-2), but we are warned not to boast or lie against the truth (Jas. 3:14).
The truth and love of Christ motivates us to "glorify God for His mercy ... But in every nation who ever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him," (Rom. 15:9; Acts 10:35).
The God who made us and who is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is "the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth," (Ex. 34:6).
Preach the Good News.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 16, 2006 0:55:26 GMT -5
menorah,
We are commanded to preach the Word of God (2 Timothy 4:2). The whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not just the more palatable parts. All scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16).
If it is in the Word of God there is a place for it to be boldy preached, proclaimed, and declared without apology.
Who goes around preaching only that "God Hates You"? I thought we already cleared all that up.
Preach repent, yes. Why? Because you have become an abomination to God that is why. That is the truth. If they repent and forsake their sin there is mercy (Proverbs 28:13). God has mercy on those that fear Him (Psalm 103:17), and the fear of the Lord is to depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6).
Let us not allow political correctness to influence our preaching.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 16, 2006 8:33:35 GMT -5
menorah isn;t influenced by political correctness; trust me
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 16, 2006 8:48:07 GMT -5
Maybe not, but why shun preaching certain parts of the bible which are true and applicable?
I think unknowingly many of us are very much influenced by political correctness.
Some of the things Jonathan Edwards and Finney preached would be labeled as preaching God hates people today.
In the UK isn't it illegal to speak out against the sin of homosexuality?
If that is true then if you speak out against it, you will eventually go to jail.
Going to jail could very much influence how someone preaches. I am not saying it influences menorah, but it is highly possible this could be a factor.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 16, 2006 12:12:12 GMT -5
The same applies in canada...
The law says it's a "hate crime".
During the Gay Pride Week, the RCMP (Police) were WITH us, and later THANKED us.
If, however, we would have been told to stop....
Well, I guess I'd be in jail.
So would menorah.
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Post by menorah on Aug 16, 2006 12:13:39 GMT -5
Maybe you took me wrong. I am saying we cant just say God hates you it has to be both Truth and Mercy. I dont preach fluffy stuff and I will not be politically correct either. I am saying the two go together. I didnt write all of that.. just the intro and end. I was meditating on Truth and Mercy and found this article. (Everyone had moved on) I am abit slow. Must be my age! My mouth belongs to the Lord and I certainly do speak against all ungodliness and have been attacked for it even by Christians and have lost Christian friends over it. No even if I was the only one I would not compromise the truth. Fluffy makes me nauseas!
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 16, 2006 12:18:41 GMT -5
Told ya so!
hahaha
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Post by evanschaible on Aug 16, 2006 12:35:46 GMT -5
1) If they hate God, and they reap what they sow, then God hates them. 2) If God does not save them who He hates, then God will not save those who hate Him.
If the biblcial definition of love is keeping God's commandments then EVERY unregenerate person on earth hates God without cause. I will have to look up the scriptures. And under your quote, those who rebel against God, sow hatred and reap hatred. Therefore as you said, God does not save those whom He hates. That is why the second person of the trinity came and died and rose from the dead. Jesus makes reconciliation. If you obey God and repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ, you do so ot of a ssense of the holiness and mercy of God. That is the first act of love toward God. Therefore God saves you.
Just a few thoughts.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 16, 2006 13:47:49 GMT -5
I never accused anyone of being "fluffy". Of course no one on this site will ever think they are fluffy or admit to being fluffy, and most are probably not fluffy compared to American and European "church" standards.
I have been in arrested in a country where it is not even yet a hate crime because I preach against homosexuality even though at the time I was not actually preaching against it.
Let's not fool ourselves. If more true Christians in America, the UK, and Canada were denouncing the sin of homosexuality in no uncertain terms, Christians in those places would be jailed ALL THE TIME.
I am constantly harrassed by the homosexual community in Miami Beach. I am almost stopped by police on a weekly basis because of the complaints of homosexuals. If we did not have people filming our every move, I am sure I would have been arrested several more times than I have been.
I suspect your recoiling at the idea of telling homosexuals in no uncertain terms they are an abomination to God does not come from the bible, but from growing up in a society where it is an accepted lifestyle.
We all need to examine ourselves in this area. It is easy to say we are not influenced by being politically correct, but it is a subtle trap to fall into.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 16, 2006 18:55:39 GMT -5
1) If they hate God, and they reap what they sow, then God hates them. Response: Are you telling me there are SOME sinners who "love" God yet are not saved? I pray this is NOT what you're saying.2) If God does not save them who He hates, then God will not save those who hate Him. Response: God ONLY saves sinners and vile wicked men who hate Him... He did not come to call the righteous; but sinners.Thus, your reasoning is wrong.If the biblcial definition of love is keeping God's commandments then EVERY unregenerate person on earth hates God without cause. I will have to look up the scriptures. And under your quote, those who rebel against God, sow hatred and reap hatred. Therefore as you said, God does not save those whom He hates. That is why the second person of the trinity came and died and rose from the dead. Jesus makes reconciliation. If you obey God and repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ, you do so ot of a ssense of the holiness and mercy of God. That is the first act of love toward God. Therefore God saves you. Response: Evan, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity IS Almighty God; He, the God people say "hates you" is the One who hated you enough to die for you? I think not, dear brother.
He is the God who LOVED you and died for you (1 Jon 4:19)Just a few thoughts.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 16, 2006 21:17:12 GMT -5
God loved us even as sinners, not because we were so lovable, but because He is so loving!
And while we were in sin, God hated us. Not in the sense that he did not love us. But in the sense that He abhorred us because of what we did.
But when we came to Him, and He changed us, He made us pleasing and acceptable unto Him. No longer to be the object of His anger, or His wrath, or His hatred. But rather to bring Him glory, honor, and praise!
But if the righteous please God. Then the unrighteous displease God. And "displeased with" is just another way of saying "abhors".
Even while God hates and abhors sinners, He loves them by willing their good and acceptance.
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