|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2006 15:19:19 GMT -5
Honestly, this is a great video. I get a whole lot of criticism for preaching at this conference with Ruben Israel. It seems some have tried to make it a requirement that to be a good open air preacher, you need to be against Ruben! But personally, I really like the guy. He's a tank. He's been marching the streets of America for 30 years, despite the criticisms, despite the arrests, despite the violence, and he's still out there and doesn't seem to have any inclination to stop or slow down! I was encouraged by this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNMgAy2QF0You may not like everything Ruben has ever said or done, but I think you'll probably like this video.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 13, 2006 16:37:20 GMT -5
Ruben is a great guy. Very generous and helpful.
He is very serious about what he does, and is totally dedicated.
A lot of people who criticize Ruben would probably jump at the chance to be fully supported in their ministry work. Ruben insists on continuing to work a secular job to pay his own way to avoid reproach.
If you get into trouble, Ruben will stick with you like glue. He is never too busy or tired to help.
He often gives away many banners and t-shirts at his own expense.
I don't try to preach like Ruben (we have to be ourselves), but I love Ruben as a brother in the Lord and could care less who does not like him.
Let us see where all these people who criticize are in twenty or thirty years. Let us see if they will go preach at Weekend of Decadence or the Tookie Williams execution.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 13, 2006 17:01:45 GMT -5
Holding up signs saying "God Abhors You" is not OF God.... it makes no difference what Jesse, Micah, Miles, me or my mom say about it.
Yes, I also like Ruben's preaching; I have siome of his material, and I'm going to post it on site...
However, don't be afraid to critise me, yourself or anyone else, Ruben included, when you see reproach coming to the name of Christ.
John the Baptist never said "God hates you!"
Micah Said: Let us see where all these people who criticize are in twenty or thirty years. Let us see if they will go preach at Weekend of Decadence or the Tookie Williams execution.
Hopefully, they won;t be claiming "God hates you"
We love Christ because He FIRST loved us.
PS: I mention only that particular incident as it was public.... I could mention others, but I am simply making a point.
30 years of OA ministry means nothing if you're "ministry" means telling people "God hates you, man!".
Not that he says this 24-7, but don;t come here saying that his detractors are not justified in their statements... many are justified, because Ruben has earned it with his method on some ocassions.
If you can call Benny Hinn a crook, can you not judge righteous judgment with your fellow Brethren?
Let's not be hypocrites here.
|
|
|
Post by menorah on Aug 13, 2006 17:26:03 GMT -5
I thought it was "God loved the world so much he sent his only begotten Son....... I thought we were to preach the GOOD news? and Repentance all the time.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2006 19:41:57 GMT -5
I do not like "God Hates You" signs. Even though Ps 5:5 does talk about a Holy hatred God has for sinners, it is more along the lines of dissatisfaction, disgust, or abhorance rather then a lack or opposite of love.
I am not against Rubens "God Abhors You" sign that he uses at homosexual parades. I've been to those parades. Those people are vile. They will quote John 3:16. They will tell you God hates the sin but loves the sinner. They will tell you nothing can seperate them from the love of God. But yet they will publicly commit homosexual acts in the parade at the same time.
What is one of the first thing God says about homosexuality?
Le 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
The first thing God says about homosexuals is that they are abominations, but that is the last thing many preachers would be willing to say!
Through out the entire bible, God never has anything nice to say about homosexuals. First he destroyed Sodom and Gommorrah. Then He calls them abominations. And even in the New Testament God says that they deserve to be put to death, and that those who approve of homosexuality should be put to death.
In our preaching, whatever topic we are talking about, we need to tell men what God has to say about them and their sin.
We need to tell them that Christ can set them free from homosexuality just as He did some men in Corinth. We must tell them that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sin. But we also must tell them how God views them because of their sin.
|
|
|
Post by oap001 on Aug 13, 2006 21:40:15 GMT -5
Honestly, this is a great video. I get a whole lot of criticism for preaching at this conference with Ruben Israel. It seems some have tried to make it a requirement that to be a good open air preacher, you need to be against Ruben! But personally, I really like the guy. He's a tank. He's been marching the streets of America for 30 years, despite the criticisms, despite the arrests, despite the violence, and he's still out there and doesn't seem to have any inclination to stop or slow down! I was encouraged by this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNMgAy2QF0You may not like everything Ruben has ever said or done, but I think you'll probably like this video. Does he have a web site? I don't know a lot about him, but I liked the video. Possibly God would use Rubin in places where some of us would be ineffective. You have to admit, he's a big guy and it may take a guy like him to make some people seriously think about their salvation.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 13, 2006 21:45:12 GMT -5
Amen Jesse.
Why is "God Abhors You" not of God?
Most of Ruben's dectractor's have only seen pictures of Ruben or short clips. They do not know him personally, nor have they preached with him in a variety of settings.
biblethumper, I do not think you know nearly as much about preaching at homosexual events as Ruben. You have to preach according to where your listeners are at.
Fruit? I have personally met and witnessed a guy who was saved under Ruben's preaching at Mardi Gras from a homosexual lifestyle and is now going around the country preaching full time.
You should have heard how his testimony shook up the homosexuals at the Chicago parade.
You make a good point about making righteous judgment also with our fellow brethren as well as with Benny Hinn.
I agree. I do not follow Benny Hinn, nor do I know much about him at all. I never did follow his ministry so I do not say much about him.
I do know Ruben.
I noticed some time ago there was a quote from you on his website praising his ministry. Why do you praise him on his website but criticize him over here?
I do not call Benny Hinn a crook. I do have good things to say about Ruben, whether it's here or on Jed's website or anywhere else.
Sometimes its seems to me some are going with what seems to be popular for the moment. This is hypocrisy.
Have you ever talked to Ruben about why he employs some of the methods he does? Asked him for a biblical defence of what he does?
Just saying something is not of God does not make it so.
|
|
|
Post by oap001 on Aug 13, 2006 21:47:38 GMT -5
Holding up signs saying "God Abhors You" is not OF God.... it makes no difference what Jesse, Micah, Miles, me or my mom say about it. Yes, I also like Ruben's preaching; I have siome of his material, and I'm going to post it on site... However, don't be afraid to critise me, yourself or anyone else, Ruben included, when you see reproach coming to the name of Christ. John the Baptist never said "God hates you!" Micah Said: Let us see where all these people who criticize are in twenty or thirty years. Let us see if they will go preach at Weekend of Decadence or the Tookie Williams execution. Hopefully, they won;t be claiming "God hates you" We love Christ because He FIRST loved us. PS: I mention only that particular incident as it was public.... I could mention others, but I am simply making a point. 30 years of OA ministry means nothing if you're "ministry" means telling people "God hates you, man!". Not that he says this 24-7, but don;t come here saying that his detractors are not justified in their statements... many are justified, because Ruben has earned it with his method on some ocassions. If you can call Benny Hinn a crook, can you not judge righteous judgment with your fellow Brethren? Let's not be hypocrites here. I just wanted to say, I understand your reasoning biblethumper. But you have to look at the streets of America. We have many many drug addicted people and people who are never ever going to repent. If Ruben is able to get in their faces and wake them up...I believe it would be of God. Is it true that God abhors people? Yes it is true.....not that he hates them. But that he is sickened by them. I believe that is true.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 13, 2006 21:51:22 GMT -5
The same Gospel that saved you and I is the same Gospel that saves homosexuals if they repent.
They read "God abhors you" and they don't know the Bible like you and I... they see a sign, brother Jesse.
They see "God hates ME".
If God hates THEM, they CANNOT be saved; God saves nothing He hates, as Scripture says we loved Him because He FIRST loved us.
Brother Jesse, I agree... homosexuals are VILE.
So were we before we were redeemed.
You simply cannot defend the use of "Got hates you" signs and then say, "I don't like those signs either".
Simply put, the issue is not about RUBEN; it's about Believers not standing up against reproach when they see it in their brothers.
Benny Hinn is a false prophet *everyone amens*
Kenneth Copeland is a false prophet *everyone amens*
Ruben Israel is not preaching the GOOD News *everyone disagrees because Ruben is an OA and because of that he, by default, is exempt from open rebuke*
Ruben may reach others where we cannot, but I can guarantee that he isn't seeing people drop en-mass in the streets while preaching a "God hates you" message.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 13, 2006 21:58:35 GMT -5
biblethumper,
For you to say Ruben preaches a "God Hates You" message, even at homosexual parades is totally error.
If you believe that, you are truly misrepresenting the man. That is not his message at all.
Please be careful going by what you hear from others, when you have never heard him for yourself.
|
|
|
Post by beniah on Aug 13, 2006 21:58:47 GMT -5
HOW IS IT THAT THE MESSAGE ON A SANDWICH BOARD SIGN IS DEEMED AS BEING REPREHENSIBLE, OBJECTIONABLE AND OFFENSIVE?
Let's take a look at the GOD ABHORS YOU sign belonging to Bro. Ruben Israel.
Ruben is obviously one of the main speakers at the SOAPA Conference...We find pictures of Bro. Ruben at GAY PRIDE events where he is preaching against a type of sin that is most reprehensible in the eyes of God! To the casual neo-evangelical and biblically illiterate observer it would appear on face value to be a "man made" saying and subject to censorship by the religious authorities in charge of maintaining that sacred IMAGE of pleasant Christians practicing their AHISMA based ministry work. The reality of the MESSAGE displayed in this case is that it is entirely BIBLICAL! Thus revealing once again the awful state of Biblical Illiteracy within the Church! The correct response to the die-hard advocates of the Neo-evangelical, AHISMA based ministry model is as follows: Dear Sir/Madam, you actually do not have a problem with Ruben or his sign in this case but with God Himself for it is God's Word that you are reading and reacting to in this case. It is His Word that is causing you offense and causing that spirit of anger and rage to manifest itself...We highly recommend ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASSES, again we must be reminded of the fact that Ruben just happens to be the mail man...the messenger, the delivery system.... It is not his message but God's Word that you have a problem with. CASE IN POINT: The GOD of the Bible has had no problem offending the silly, trite little homosapien through out His dealings with him, as we shall see in multiple instances: Le 26:30 "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you." Psalm 5:6" the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man" Ps 119:163 "I hate and abhor lying..." Am 6:8 The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, The LORD God of hosts says: "I abhor the pride of Jacob, And hate his palaces; therefore I will deliver up the city And all that is in it."
And this is the REAL KICKER as far as the Biblical illiteracy program is concerned is evidenced in Romans 12:9 where the Christian is commanded to manifest and demonstrate this GODLY quality in his life especially when he makes JUDGEMENTS of right and wrong! The CHRISTIAN IS COMANDED to ABHOR that which is evil...are people evil?
Does God ask of His children those things that are not congruent with His own nature and will?
Does the Lord of the Universe NOT ABHOR those who do evil?
Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. (NKJV) . The word ABHORRENT is synonymous with the following words according to Roget's Thesaurus: So objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation: abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, disgusting, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean 2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched.
The message : GOD ABHORS YOU is in point of fact a BIBLICAL truth, it is undeniable and it is glorious. The SINNER has absolutely no Biblical basis upon which he has any hope for redemption outside of his acknowledgement of his legal standing before Almighty God. He is CONDEMNED as a filthy, wicked sinner, wretched, vile, foul, repugnant, odious, nasty, loathsome and abominable!
He is nothing less than FIT for the flames of a HELL of FIRE! To pimp out a cheap version of "God loves You and has a wonderful plan for your life" is totally irresponsible and unbiblical. You should really take a few minutes to read the most famous sermon ever preached...SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD! Isa 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."(NKJV)
Not only do we have an explosion of BIBLE ILLITERACY at the root of the armchair critics’ faulty analysis of the GOD ABHORS YOU sign but we also have a revelation of the depth of exposure to the most famous sermon ever preached in America...preached, by the way, to CHURCH PEOPLE...(the most difficult audience to reach and the preacher's most voracious and contentious crowd of hecklers are always church people)...that sermon was called SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD written by Jonathan Edwards and due to the current circumstances shall from hence forth be a READING REQUIREMENT for any and all guest speakers scheduled to speak at this conference .
FYI: Bro. Jesse Morell has been asked to preach upon this very Sermon at the Conference.
Bro. Jesse will be speaking on “How God shall BREAK THE BACK of the SINNER upon the mountain of his sin!” Obviously, the title of this message is a spin off of the new homo-sex movie Broke Back Mountain and Jesse’s updated rendition of the most famous sermon ever preached will be quite a piece indeed!
Here is an excerpt from a piece by A. W. Tozer titled “Where are the Elijah’s of God” "God has always had His specialists whose chief concern has been the moral breakdown, the decline in the spiritual health of the nation or church. Such men were Elijiah, Jeremiah, Malachi and others of their kind, who appeared at critical moments in history to reprove, rebuke and exhort in the name of God and righteousness. A thousand or ten thousand ordinary priests or pastors or teachers could labor quietly on, almost unnoticed while the spiritual life of Israel or the church was normal. But let the people of God go astray from the paths of truth, and immediately the specialist appeared almost out of nowhere. His instinct for trouble brought him to the help of the Lord and of Israel. Such a man was likely to be drastic, radical, possibly at times violent and the curious crowd that gathered to watch him work soon branded him as extreme, fanatical, negative. And in a sense they were right. He was single minded, severe, fearless, as these were the qualities the circumstances demanded. He shocked some, frightened others and alienated not a few, but he knew who had called him and what he was sent to do. His ministry was geared to the emergency, and that fact marked him out as different, a man apart. To such men as this the church owes a debt too heavy to pay. The curious thing is that she seldom tries to pay while he lives, but the next generation builds his sepulcher and writes his biography, as if instinctively and awkwardly to discharge an obligation the previous generation to a large extent ignored." by: A. W. Tozer
The FACT is that this "SPECIALIST" is compared with the PROPHETS who did what? THEY REPROVED THEY REBUKED THEY EXHORTED Were they Non-Offensive in their ministry? Did they carry SIGNS? Did they say things that people might have considered "unloving”? Did they prophesy unto the people "pleasant" things...nice things, comforting things? Did they prophesy in their name...giving great consideration to their ministry and reputation? Did they set their eyes on the tender hearts of their target audience and take into consideration the political correctness of their speech at the time? Did they wet the tip of their finger and then stick it up in the air to see which way popular opinion was blowing on any given day and then go with the flow? Were they particularly sensitive men, apt to cry and sing songs about the Lord kissing them on the lips with His loving hugs and kisses and such?
Did the prophets sign a bunch of women up for a course in "how to prophesy to your friends and neighbors without offending them”?
I am convinced NOW more than ever, that if the leadership of the Church is reflected by this propensity to cave in to popular opinion that there will NOT be a revival any time soon and surly not a revival brought about and engineered by a bunch of man pleasers!
Further more...the problem of CRITICAL THINKING...ANYLYTICAL THINKING...and "looking" into matters with more than a superficial glance...MAKING ASSUMPTIONS based on appearances is the BOTTOM LINE PROBLEM with most who fail to make righteous judgments. I hate to say it but the REVELATION should be obvious! The CORE ISSUE HERE is the principle of passing JUDGMENT on something based on appearance, assumption and a first glance. This is exactly the mode of operation at work here and is in fact the mode of operation or operating principle behind the rampant Biblical illiteracy problem within the Church as a whole! This is a perfect example of the problem.
We find that the real fundamental problem at work in this situation is the proverbial "Frog in the Pot" principle. That is to say that in this case, the pot happens to be the "evangelical" culture of the day..., which is one of "Non-Offense". Unfortunately, this trait of evangelical Christianity is a result of the doctrines of the NEO-EVANGELICAL school of thought and theses doctrines unfortunately have been applied across the board within mainstream protestant churches since the mid 1950's. The doctrine of non-offense has been effectively applied as an operating principle, a template and a measuring stick of ministries within the Church. It is not limited to its application within the Church walls but is even applied outside the church with respect to HOW Christians relate to and evangelize the world! Christians strive for Non-Offense in the culture today...Particularly those who DO EVANGELISM. The doctrine of Non-Offense is applied to evangelism which ultimately reduces the evangelistic effort to what is called "Presence Evangelism"....Confrontational Evangelism is seen as being TOO OFFENSIVE and so it is to be shunned, avoided, censored and castigated as hopelessly out of touch with the modern methods of Non Offensive outreach and ministry. Presence Evangelism is that evangelism that primarily concerns itself with HUMANITARIAN enterprise. The main goal of Presence Evangelism is showing God's love to people in a very limited and narrowly defined way. The way to show the people God's love is not defined by the pattern of Truth we find in the Biblical revelation which historically has led to rejection, persecution and death of the prophet at the hands of religious authorities but rather to a "friendly" and non-offensive approach of showing others the "love" of God by and through various “creative” non-offensive means such as giving stuff to the poor.... Food, blankets, Toys at Christmas time...maybe a Gospel tract as long as it has a non-offensive message on it. This is Presence Evangelism and it is also known as Servant Evangelism.
The problem we have here is that it is nearly impossible to convince the New-Evangelical mind that the doctrine of Non Offense as it is universally applied by almost all evangelicals today is a Hindu doctrine at its core! The Church has adopted a Hindu doctrine and applied this template to every aspect of its evangelistic ministry....
In conclusion I think it is time for the Open-Air preacher (including myself) too simply ABANDON the term evangelism when we define our calling and work. Evangelist in our day simply refuse to confront the culture and quote negative Bible verses and rarely preach on Hell and the judgment to come. With this in mind I would suggest that the Open Air Preacher is much more in the class of John the Baptist…a prophet to the church and world alike (not much difference) and confronting the culture of each one with the UNBRIDLED WORD of God.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 13, 2006 22:06:34 GMT -5
AMEN!
Well I think that about settles it once and for all.
Thank you for that excellent post beniah.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2006 22:17:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on Aug 14, 2006 0:57:14 GMT -5
In conclusion I think it is time for the Open-Air preacher (including myself) too simply ABANDON the term evangelism when we define our calling and work. Evangelist in our day simply refuse to confront the culture and quote negative Bible verses and rarely preach on Hell and the judgment to come. With this in mind I would suggest that the Open Air Preacher is much more in the class of John the Baptist…a prophet to the church and world alike (not much difference) and confronting the culture of each one with the UNBRIDLED WORD of God.
Amen to that.
We are preparing the way for the 2nd coming.
Loved the video of Bro Ruben.
From what I have seen and heard of him I would classify him as a 'good bloke' (an Aussie term of approval).
|
|
|
Post by menorah on Aug 14, 2006 3:32:50 GMT -5
WWJD?
|
|
|
Post by menorah on Aug 14, 2006 4:27:55 GMT -5
Nothing makes the gospel of Jesus Christ more blessed or beautiful than His love for the sinner, even His love for every sinner. Jesus said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32). As He preached and taught His wonderful truths, He never showed partiality. The religious crowds were His worst enemies, but the sinners heard Him gladly. Luke stated, "Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them." (Luke 15:1-2).
His Gospels record the golden text of all Scripture, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). The word world is recorded in the Gospel of John fifty-nine times and in the entire New Testament 203 times. He created the world for His glory and carefully designed mankind in His image and after His likeness. We are part of a special breed, second only to the angels, and we were clearly His joy from the moment Adam breathed his first breath.
The greatest moments of church history have always been characterized by a harvest of the lost. When the Holy Spirit breathes upon a congregation or sovereignly visits a Christian gathering, both sinners and saints are sure to weep over His salvation for everyone. I have served Him for fifty years and never once have I seen His presence manifested without touching all but maybe one or two Christ rejecters. On the day of Pentecost the Scripture records 3,000 souls added to His kingdom. A few days later it was 5,000 and, shortly, they ceased to record numbers, but said, "And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women." (Acts 5:14).
Study the Scriptures concerning the Father, the Lord Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, and notice the total absence of respect of persons in all their revelations or setting descriptions. When Jesus spoke of the one hundred sheep in the parable of the lost sheep, He made no allowance for one being left lost. He stated, "And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:3-7).
To the Great Shepherd of the sheep, it was unthinkable to lose even one. This story reveals the heart of our Eternal Savior. The lost sheep was in grave danger and the very nature of the sheep rendered his return on his own impossible. The Shepherd Himself was risking great danger to search the wilderness but nothing else was acceptable. When the lost sheep was found, great rejoicing was the order.
Jesus ends this parable with a statement that leaves no room to misinterpret, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:7). Now, we add angels to Heaven's inhabitants that are impartial over souls. Angelic activities in Heaven are always described as centering around the glory and praise of God and His holiness. What is more to His glory and praise than another sinner to repent and turn to the Creator and Savior? It is Heaven's business to save the fallen race. And, Heaven will never cease to shout as long as the harvest continues.
Pharisees Are Always Furious Over Saving Sinners
The religious crowd in Jesus' day murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them." (Luke 15:2). How dare the man who many were claiming to be the Jewish Messiah sit at a table with sinners? These Jews were actually Old Testament Calvinists or Augustinians. The thought that their great theological system could dare allow sinners to approach the Messiah was ultimate blasphemy. Such a man was worthy to die by crucifixion. They did not crucify Him because He was not Jewish or because they were not looking for a messiah, but because He dared defy their narrow doorway of religious acceptance. Their elitist system was attacked and disparaged by the blessed Son of God and they were furious, "But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar." (John 19:15).
Religion that becomes a system built with walls will always resist a religion built with doors. The church world is manifest today as many different systems and much of each system has a list of stated beliefs that are not usually bad. In fact, often there is little to find wrong with what is believed as doctrines. The problem is not what the religious crowd says in their theology, but what they do concerning a "lost world." Most sinners are terribly out of place and unaffected in today's church.
There is also a transition in many churches to move to the opposite extreme. Instead of high church where sinners are hopelessly lost, the new model is a "sin-friendly church," where the whole sense of "lost" is ignored or denied. These churches deny the old-fashioned truth of repentance and the mourner's bench is outdated and foolish. This extreme is as dangerous as the old systems of religious starch and pride. The church world just does not get the entire purpose of the New Testament, which is "salvation of sinners." Sinners cannot be forced to believe, but they must not be ignored or uninvited. The business of the church is to make disciples and to minister to their soul once they have believed. No coercion and no rejection, but to all a genuine invitation.
The Ten Lost Coins
After Jesus shared the great parable of the Shepherd and His flock of 100 sheep. He proceeds to deepen His redemptive commitment to the whole world. He tells a parable that is far reaching. "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it. And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:8-10). This woman was wealthy. Her ten silver coins represented all of that wealth and she was certainly content. But, she lost one coin, only one coin, and everything changed. She was rich, but not wasteful. She still had nine coins, but the one missing suddenly became her whole focus. How could she rest when one of ten could not be found? She lit a candle and began to sweep the whole house. She sought "diligently" with great effort and was evidently uncomfortable. She was absolutely unwilling that one coin would be lost. She was clearly willing to leave the nine coins in a safe place until she could find the lost one.
With great joy she found the lost coin and called for a celebration. Her neighbors and friends were called and invited to join in the celebration. Her words were spiritually explosive. "Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost." The whole subject is one lost coin, which represents one lost soul. Now, the Lord Jesus Christ makes His great truth come alive. "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:10).
This lesson is so breathtaking. The message is clear. No one, not even one out of ten, can be considered expendable. The first parable was one out of one hundred. Now, the message is one out of ten. The next parable reveals the same love for one of two.
The One Lost Son
In the parable of the ninety and nine, where one sheep was lost, the Lord revealed how He reached across His perfect holiness and purity without becoming defiled and rescued that one lost lamb. While this parable reveals His unquestionable love for the lost sinner, it is also an incredible message to the church. After a soul has been redeemed, we must not ever forget from where it came. If we ever become too holy to go into the wilderness in search of the missing, we have left His holiness for our own self-righteousness.
His parable of the ten coins shows the discomfort that must characterize His saints. We are sent into the highways and hedges to search for that which is lost. Comfortable Christianity is non-existent in His revelation.
But, now He shows us something of His beautiful striving with the rebellious and the wayward. The prodigal son knew the comforts of His Father's love and left for the worldly pleasures with full consciousness of what he was leaving. Note these great descriptions, "And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry." (Luke 15:11-23).
This young man was characterized by the worst case of rebellion and unthankfulness. Sin made him insane and vile, but he was never so darkened that he could not come to himself. When he did awake from his stupor, he immediately remembered the father's house and knew he was welcome to return. This prodigal son never doubted that he had an invitation to go home. He did not wonder if he was elected to go home or if he had been disowned. He gave those pigs a permanent wave and started the long journey back to the place where love was the welcome mat. Apparently, he had never heard that most sinners have no hope.
As you read this Biblical picture, it is alive with an unquestionable sense of impartial invitation. The elder brother represents the elitist Jews that rejected everyone but himself or herself. They were never happy with the Lord Jesus' open door policy. The Father's heart and attitude was a different story. His invitation was so real and pure that He saw the prodigal son coming home "when he was yet a great way off." His heart was never callous towards his son in sin. Understand the power of the human spirit, there is no question but that this prodigal felt the call of His father before he ever climbed out of that pigpen, where he "ate the husks that the swine did eat." This Father had never lost hope and his son had probably never forgotten the look of the Father's face as he "took his journey into a far country."
The Bible is filled with the story of our Father "striving" for the return of His creation to His fellowship. As one writer stated, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the unseen guests at the funeral of every lost soul." If not one hair can fall from one living soul without His knowledge, how could you believe that one sinner could be lost without His tears? The tears He wipes away in Heaven may well include His own.
This great story of the returning prodigal forever helps in establishing His undying love for the lost. Couple this with the shepherd (one lost sheep), the woman (one lost coin), and, now, one lost son, and you have total evidence that He is not a respecter of persons. He did not choose only a few out of the masses. Nobody ever appealed to Him that He did not stop and listen.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 9:27:19 GMT -5
Micah, you will notice my post mentions the incident as an EXAMPLE.
You will also note that the post I made mentions Ruben as being a great preacher.
You will then, note, taht I specifically mentioned it's not about Ruben at all.
You will then note how I made reference to the OTHERS uplifting ALL OA preaching, regardless of what it is.
Which is hypocrisy.
I mentione dthe "God hates you" incident to stir a response; which was received, and to which I was correct; some, not all, will defend even sinful action as long as that action comes from a like minded OA.
I do enjoy Ruben's preaching... and never did I say I didn't.
I enjoy his stand...never did I say I didn't.
What I DID say, if you will re-read, is that THIS incident was not Biblical; though we all do unBiblical and foolish things many times.
The point was to see how you would respond, as I have already made clear.
My question is, "How can you defend a Brother's actions 100% no matter what?"
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 9:38:59 GMT -5
My original question if you will re-read, is "Why is it sinful?"
I do not defend a brothers actions 100% no matter what. I am asking you to prove evidence that the statement "God Abhors You" to homosexuals is unbiblical or sinful.
I don't like messages that say "God Loves You", but would I call it sinful or even unbiblical?
Did you read all of beniah's post?
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Aug 14, 2006 11:04:01 GMT -5
I would have to say that there isn't one person on here who preaches a message that Beniah described in a negative way. I would describe the "God Loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" message as totally unBiblical because sinners wouldn't understand what that means. I also don't think there is anyone on this message board who preaches a "non-offensive" message. The main problem I have with the "wonderful plan" message is that my definition of wonderful and the lost sinners' definition of wonderful would be totally different. My definition of wonderful would be anything that brings Glory to God. The lost sinners' shallow understanding of that word would mean money, cars, houses, women, good health, etc. I definitely can't call the "God Hates You" message unBiblical anymore then I cal call the "God Loves You" message unBiblical. I, however, will use neither, because BOTH are HALF-Truths. I preached at the Bele Chere festival recently and my friend was preaching in front of a sign that says, "God hates the wicked." There were homosexual teenagers standing around with signs in protest that said, "God loves all no matter what" and "It is ok to be gay," etc. So my friedn, seeing BOTH Half-Truths of "God Loves You" and "God Hates You" decided to stand up and preach. I went after him. I did this NOT because I approve of that man's sign. In fact, I was constantly distancing myself from this man. People couldn't get passed what the sign said. I told them that it said the truth and then had to explain what that verse meant over and over again. It was very hard to preach the Gospel to say the least. So the MAJOR problem I have with either of those messages (God Loves you and God Hates you) being on a sign is that they are Half-Truths. I would NEVER want ANYONE to walk by me holding a sign with EITHER of those messages on them because that might be all they ever see or hear about God. GOD FORBID! I want them to hear the whole truth! I don't have a problem with Reuben or anyone else on here. I have learned not to judge anyone by what I hear from others or by video clips of their preaching. If people did that to me, it's no telling what they would think of me! I consider every Christian on here a brother in Christ, but would not do what some of you do. I would have no problem going to any of the places that Reuben goes. I do think that our message should stay the same wherever we go though: Repent of ALL sin and Turn if Faith to Jesus Christ! It may be more harsh to certain people or in certain places and it may be more gentle to certain people or in certain places...but the message is still the same...
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 11:37:14 GMT -5
I believe, RevK, you nailed it right on the button.
half Truths are, in God's perspective, full lies.
|
|
|
Post by menorah on Aug 14, 2006 11:45:26 GMT -5
Great post Rev K. I agree.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 12:26:03 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 13:26:20 GMT -5
Yes good post RevK and I agree.
What I am saying though is if someone had a banner with John 3:16 or a banner with Psalm 5:5 I would not call either of those sinful or unbiblical.
Sometimes (and I say this based on experience), I think it is a good idea to have a banner or sign that says something that needs further explanation (as a matter of fact I can't really think of any one sign or banner that would not need clarification or would be a direct message for every single person walking by).
We have a sandwich board that reads on one side, "God's Love is Conditional". Of course there is a sense in which it is not conditional but there is also a sense in which it is conditional. It generates much attention and conversation.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 13:32:49 GMT -5
RevK,
My whole point in referencing beniah's article was not to criticize anyone else's message (I don't go around doing that), but as a defense of Ruben's sign.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 13:35:29 GMT -5
Micah Said: What I am saying though is if someone had a banner with John 3:16 or a banner with Psalm 5:5 I would not call either of those sinful or unbiblical.
Of course you wouldn't... those are Scriptures.
There no Scriptures, however, claiming "hey man! Guess what? God sure hates you!".
Also, thsoe signs CANNOT be defended because they're evil and vile.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Aug 14, 2006 13:37:21 GMT -5
What I am saying though is if someone had a banner with John 3:16 or a banner with Psalm 5:5 I would not call either of those sinful or unbiblical. Amen. I agree. I just couldn't use a sign that would seem to intentionally stir people up or make them angry. That is no kind of crowd to preach to that is for sure. Trying to preach over top such a crowd is to wear your voice out very quickly. I would rather have a sign that had something like "What If?" on it or "Heaven or Hell?" or "Where Will YOU Be After You Die?", etc. That's just my preference though. If other people want to put God hates you or God loves you on signs, then that is their perogative. I just hope that they clarify as to what they mean by it. To not clarify and to let either one of those messages be your whole message is to lead people astray and not preach the whole counsel of God.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 15:15:32 GMT -5
All I can say to close this thread up is:
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Aug 14, 2006 15:34:04 GMT -5
"God Abhors You" is definitely biblical. Please go back and read beniah's article as it contains plenty of scriptures to prove God does abhor people.
I am still waiting for you to prove why "God Abhors You" is sinful and unbiblical....
It has to be more than just because you say so.
That is pretty funny by the way. Why do we need to close this thread up?
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Aug 14, 2006 15:57:59 GMT -5
I agree that God abors people also... however, I believe He hates THINGS also, such as telling EVERYONE in the general viewing area, "God hates you".
I can list the Scrptures, yet it may flood the board...
Would you like me to list all of the Scriptures on God's love for SINNERS, even VILE ones?
I can.
However, I will simply say one word to show that such filthy signs are an abomination:
Calvary
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 14, 2006 16:44:43 GMT -5
AMEN beniah. Praise God. Can I copy and paste that?
|
|