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Post by Miles Lewis on Aug 16, 2006 22:46:32 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that Ruben's banner policy was to have bad news on one side and good news on the other, law and grace, hope and helplessness. Ya know, keep a balance.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 16, 2006 23:09:58 GMT -5
That sounds about right to me.
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Post by bullhornbob on Aug 16, 2006 23:17:29 GMT -5
Hey Dan,
I am not trying to rub this in your face, but you are obviously not going to respond to my posts in this thread. I have no problem with that.
But, I must also note that it seems that sometimes you say some things on this board that you claim are scripturally sound, but then you get challenged by another person, and then you disappear.
Even Bro. Miles recently said:
Dan, in all fairness, you do tend to say something is or is not scriptural and then do not give a reasoned biblical defense of your statement when challenged........ Much love brother.
Miles
So, my best advice to you is to finish your conversations and try to be a gentleman. I hope that you are not offended by my strong stance, but I feel that sometimes it can be very disrespectful to the person being ignored, and to others reading the posts.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, by the love that you have for one another" - Jesus Christ
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Post by menorah on Aug 17, 2006 3:27:19 GMT -5
Balance is the word. But all sin is sin liars drunkards adulterers and homosexuals all will go to hell unless they repent. Does God send those to hell because of his hate of them or because of his love for the chosen or for both reasons. Just a question. If you were invited to go and preach at a nite club in London or give out tracts there what would you do. Or in a Gay Bar. What would you preach? How would you reachout to the lost in a situation like that? How did and does David Wilkerson reach out to the lost in the ghettos?
How can we get these souls to repentance. What is the biblcal way. How did Jesus and the Apostles operate. I am thinking aloud here. What about the woman they wanted to stone. etc etc.
I think we need to be careful we dont go out with our own hatred of a certain section of society. That then would not be God it would be our own excuse to shout out God Abhors you just because of what is in our own heart in the name of God. I am not saying anyone here does that. But I am thinking about the person individuals not a whole section of people. I am putting myself in their shoes as I once was to an extent maybe not the same sin.
Are we to lift others out of the pit or push them into it further. Are we to shine the light so they can see and want to come out of it... I am sure we are to be light and salt.. speaking the truth in love.. . God is merciful.. to those who repent. If they contine in sin and want to stay in the dark I think we should weep for them not gleefully stick the boot in and say God hates you anyway.. because some of the posts here sound just like that.. maybe unintentionally or I am taking it the wrong way..we can still have a strong word of truth without hate.
The reason I mentoned the club and bar is it would defeat the purpose of reaching people if we go in saying God abhors you.. you would get kicked out.. right away. and then say it was persecution and glory in it.. when no seeds were sown in peoples lifes of truth. We are to sow seeds in tears and reap in Joy. To keep a door open to those places we would have to listen to the wisdom of God what to say. What are your experiences in saying God abhors your and suchlike? I like to look at things at all angles not on the surface and dig deep. See what mature men and women of truth do and more importantly see what the Bible says and how the Spirit leads.
I spoke to a sex change person in the street the other day. He/she said she was born again and went to church! I was thinking about that also. Some of our churches welcome Homosexuals and dont tell them they are in sin God loves them as they are. Thats not right. So many will go to those churches to be accepted. There is a real battle and I am overwhelmed by it. I realise I myself cannot do this alone but need the Lord Jesus to totally consume me.. no flesh can save anything.. we have to be totally Spirit led speaking the words God tells us to speak no less than that will do.
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Post by menorah on Aug 17, 2006 6:09:16 GMT -5
I just read this article today from John Piper.
How to Respond to Horrifying Sayings of Jesus
March 22, 2006
Letters From Cambridge #1
One of the things I am doing at this point in my sabbatical here in Cambridge, England, is reading through the four Gospels and collecting all the explicit and implicit commands of Jesus into various categories. I am driven in this endeavor by Matthew 28:18-20. Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and . . . [teach all the nations] to observe all that I have commanded you.” So it is important that we are able to do that. We should teach and obey “all that he commanded us” because he has “all authority” in the universe. No one else has the right, the wisdom, or the love to tell us how to live. Only Jesus has that authority.
But when you read through the Gospels you find some horrifying things. If you don’t feel them as horrifying, you are not awake. I think they are calculated to wake us up from our domestication of Christ and his book. This one grabbed me because it relates directly to the issue of Jesus’ authority. At the beginning of the parable of the ten minas (or ten pounds) in Luke 19:14, Jesus describes the citizens’ relationship to the nobleman like this: “His citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’” Then at the end of the parable Jesus says in Luke 19:27, “As for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me."
This is horrifying. Jesus says that people who do not want his absolute authority over them will be slaughtered before his eyes. What should our hearts and minds do with this kind of talk in the mouth and heart of our Lord?
1) First, we see what is really there: horrific language about the condition and the destiny of certain people. They are enemies. They do not want Jesus' authority over their lives. They will be slaughtered. Jesus will not have it done in a private place but before his eyes.
2) We bow before the judgment of the Lord and reckon his way to be wise and just and even loving for those who tremble at his word and repent.
3) We shudder at the terrible future that awaits so many people.
4) We are made to ponder what a moral and spiritual outrage rebellion against Jesus is—otherwise being slaughtered for it would be an unjust overreaction.
5) We feel vulnerable knowing the remnants of rebellion in our own hearts.
6) We fly from the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16) to the cross where he has made an escape from his own wrath (“Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come,” 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
7) We feel the stunning, humbling, incredible truth that our escape from the torture that comes from Christ into the ecstasy that we will enjoy with Christ is by grace alone and not because of our righteousness (as Jesus said, “When you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty,’” Luke 17:10).
8) We feel pricked in conscience that there is too often a self-righteous contempt for rebellious people that rises in our hearts—and we add that sin to all the rest that make us good candidates to be slaughtered along with the rebellious.
9) We repent of our own rebellion and its many subtle forms, and find, by grace, a love for rebellious people rising in our hearts so that, unlike the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son, it would really be our joy if one of these rebels against the authority of Jesus would be saved and join the celebration of grace—like Saddam Hussein, for example.
10) We are moved, in all our imperfections, as forgiven sinners, to move into the lives of rebels and warn them of their condition, and commend the work of Christ to them, and endure their derision, if by any means we might save some. This is not simple, and it is not easy. And I don't claim to do it well. But it is how I endeavor to respond to horrific things in the Bible.
Longing to be shaped by Scripture, not the world,
Pastor John
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Post by menorah on Aug 17, 2006 6:21:54 GMT -5
God’s Word in Battle with Homosexual Temptation
August 11, 2004
This article is the follow-up that I said in Sunday’s message (August, 8 2004) I would like to write. I spoke from Romans 12:2 and 1:23-28 on discerning the will of God in relation to homosexuality and the political situation surrounding so-called “homosexual marriage”—which I argued does not and cannot exist, no matter what any human court says.
A couple weeks earlier we had received at Desiring God an email from a man in the UK in response to the internet Desiring God Radio broadcasts on homosexuality (July 16-23, 2004—you can listen to a number of archived radio programs at Desiring God Radio any time.) This man’s story is relevant because it shows
* that the almighty mercy of God can break into a person’s life in an utterly unexpected way through a message on the internet; * that homosexual desires can be changed; * that Christ is at work redemptively around the world in ways beyond our small plans; and * that we should be praying earnestly and constantly for thousands of people like Daniel (not his real name).
The first email below is his permission to use the second one and sets the stage, making it even more remarkable.
—Pastor John Email #1
As far as quoting my emails or doing whatever you want to do, please feel free.
I have to say, if I was some wholesome church-goer then I probably wouldn’t have bothered sending you a message in the first place. But the truth is, I have never attended a single church service in the history of my life. So, for something like your show to have such a radical impact on my life is pretty amazing—at least, by my standards. Who would have thought that the Internet (of all things!) could turn out to be such an effective platform for sending out the Good Word?
Your show is touching the hearts of many skeptics out there who, like myself, have spent most of their adult lives running away from God. Take care and once again, please keep up the good work! Email #2
I’m Daniel. I’m 28 years old and I live in the UK. I wanted to give you a little feedback on how your broadcasts have affected my life. In particular I want to discuss your recent broadcasts on the subject of homosexuality. This is all rather shameful and embarrassing to admit, but in the recent times I have been entertaining homosexual fantasies in my mind. I live on my own and on Friday night of last week, after much planning and excitement, I switched on my computer, plugged in my brand new webcam and attempted to log onto a gay chatroom (with video conferencing!). I’m sure I don’t need to go into any detail but as you can probably imagine, I had well and truly set course on what would have been a rather godless weekend (that may well have even resulted in some kind of meet up with another guy from my area).
I have to tell you what happened. Seconds before being logged into this gay room something in my mind (I can’t say it was literally a voice, but certainly a thought) seemed to whisper “go to Desiring God and listen”. Anyway, for a guy in my position this was certainly the LAST thing that I would have wanted to do but in order to at least shut my mind up I quickly visited your website.
I was, of course, surprised to find out that you were discussing homosexuality that week (I was by no means a regular listener and I am not even a church-goer!). Anyway, I had a listen and I can tell you that after hearing your message something radical seemed to stir within me. The effects were powerful and instant.
Instead of logging onto the gay chatroom, I literally smashed up my webcam and threw it in the bin. I apologize for being crude but this was much more than the result of a rational decision in my mind. I also felt at that moment that all of a sudden, my unclean homosexual desires were instantly destroyed along with my webcam. This was, I believe, a physical, mental and spiritual shift.
Anyway, at the time of writing I can honestly say that not only have I not logged onto any internet chat rooms at all, but just the thought of having a sexual experience with another man makes me feel sick. I can’t say for sure what has happened, but I believe that Jesus Christ is working through your radio broadcasts in ways that none of us can fully understand. . . .
—Daniel
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2006 15:53:17 GMT -5
I remember something like that too.
It sure makes sense.
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Post by evanschaible on Aug 17, 2006 17:48:57 GMT -5
Dan, I was simply showing how that wuote you posted numerous times was contradictory. Yes, Jesus is God. Yes he died for me, He is my Lord, your Lord and the Lord of glory. Your quote is very wrong, which is what I was showing. I do agree with Jesse though.
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Post by oap001 on Aug 17, 2006 19:19:20 GMT -5
Does Ruben have a web site. I couldn't find one??
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 17, 2006 20:25:07 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2006 21:54:37 GMT -5
It's really not the prettiest site..... And I've already expressed how I dislike the word "homo".... But this is a funny picture!
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Post by oap001 on Aug 17, 2006 23:11:23 GMT -5
It's really not the prettiest site..... And I've already expressed how I dislike the word "homo".... But this is a funny picture! Whats wrong with the word homo?
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 17, 2006 23:23:15 GMT -5
Yes, only Ruben would think of preaching in a cow suit at a Hindu parade and be able to get away with it.
I heard that one year he did not wear it to preach and all the hindu's were disappointed.
They all want to see the guy in the cow suit.
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Post by oap001 on Aug 17, 2006 23:25:03 GMT -5
One of my favorite preachers is Jeff Owens. He uses the word fag, homo and so on. I see nothing wrong with it. An example of one such serman is "everyone has standards". Its at www.owenspublications.com/download06.phpI would like your thoughts.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 17, 2006 23:43:37 GMT -5
I know some preachers who use those words who I believe are godly men. Personally, I do not like to use them but can not say exactly why. At this point it is a personal conviction. I guess it borders on slang, or course language (Ephesians 5:4).
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 18, 2006 13:32:27 GMT -5
I know some preachers who use those words who I believe are godly men. Personally, I do not like to use them but can not say exactly why. At this point it is a personal conviction. I guess it borders on slang, or course language (Ephesians 5:4). Micah, where do you get "personal convictions" from? The Scripture is clear that if "personal convictions" offend a brother needlessly, you are not to partake of that particular conviction. Could you list Scripture where we are allowed and exhorted to offend our brothers fro whom Christ died? Looking forward to your reply.
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 18, 2006 14:09:57 GMT -5
Personal conviction is something God deals with me personally about. For example, I do not watch movies, sports, or listen to any secular music. I do not have a television in my house. I think such is worldly, and a waste of time. It is not redeeming the time and I have to give an account to God of how I spend my time.
I also have personal convictions about listening to "Christian" rap and "Christian" rock and other forms of contemporary Christian music.
I can give scriptural reasons for these, but not everyone accepts them. I do not like to be dogmatic about things where the bible is not dogmatic.
Therefore I do not go around trying to push my personal convictions on everyone else.
Can you please explain to me how my personal conviction of not calling homosexuals "fags" is offensive to others?
It seems as if you grossly misunderstood my above post, or you are trying to pick a fight with me. I hope I am wrong.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 18, 2006 16:11:53 GMT -5
Nope; you misunderstood ME, brother.
What I meant was this:
How can you support Brethren who care nothing about the convictions of others?
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 18, 2006 23:24:18 GMT -5
In the first place, on Ruben's site there is a big commendation of his site from your ministry floating around. You support his ministry too.
In the second place, have you gone to Ruben about this personally? In the past you have really insisted others do this. You were able to get your commendation posted on his site, so surely you can contact Ruben personally if you are so concerned. He is very easy to get ahold of.
In the third place, you still have avoided my challenge to you to prove what Ruben is doing is sinful or unbiblical. Several others have even noticed this.
In the fourth place, I am a little unclear as to what exactly you are talking about. Who am I supporting who cares nothing for the convictions of others? Ruben? How does he know the convictions of others, and how do you know he cares nothing for the convictions of others?
In the middle of open air preaching are you supposed to take some kind of poll to make sure no one is offended by anything you say?
Are their convictions biblically based, or are they based on what is politically correct?
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Post by menorah on Aug 19, 2006 3:01:27 GMT -5
A Friend of Sinners
by David Wilkerson June 12, 2006
“The Son of man came…a friend of publicans and sinners” (Matthew 11:19). In Luke 7 we read the story of a Pharisee named Simon, who invited Jesus to his house to have a meal. This pious man also invited a select group of religious leaders like himself to join the supper table. Most likely, those guests were also Pharisees.
It was clearly a very religious gathering. Simon and his fellow Pharisees observantly kept the law, tithed meticulously and went to God’s house daily. They were scrupulously righteous in their own eyes, and they fancied themselves to be the holy men of their generation.
I’m not sure why any Pharisee would invite Jesus for dinner, let alone bring in other strict religious men to eat with him. A likely reason for the invitation was that Simon and his friends wanted to determine whether Jesus was a prophet or, really, to discount him as one. The passage makes clear that Simon knew of Jesus’ reputation as a prophet (see Luke 7:39).
In that culture, it was customary to greet each houseguest with a basin of water and a cloth, to wash dust from the visitor’s feet. (There were no paved roads then, so people’s feet were always dusty from their travels.) The guest was also greeted with a kiss on each cheek. Then he was given a small container of an oil-based ointment to rub through his hair, which was most likely in need of moisturizing.
As I read this passage, it seems that Simon had made arrangements to seat his other guests before Jesus arrived. And, almost certainly, those other guests were refreshed according to custom. After all, no Pharisee wanted a reputation among his peers for being inhospitable.
Yet the passage makes evident that Jesus received no such hospitality. All he got when he arrived was condescension. There was no water to wash the dust from his feet, no courtesy kiss on his cheek, no ointment for his head (see Luke 7:44–46). Instead, he was led to the reclining table as a lesser visitor, and he had to recline among the others with his feet still dusty.
Scripture doesn’t tell us what this group discussed around that supper table, but we can assume it had to do with theology. The Pharisees specialized in the subject, and they had tried to trick Jesus on other occasions with fanciful questions. But Christ knew what was in these men’s hearts, and it quickly became clear.
The next thing we read is that a woman of the streets “who was a sinner” crashed the scene. Somehow this notorious woman made her way past the servants of the house and walked up to the table where those religious men were dining. There she stood at Jesus’ feet, clutching an alabaster box of perfume and weeping.
Simon and his friends must have been too stunned to act. Indeed, they were probably paralyzed with shock. They recognized this woman as a great sinner in their city. (She may have been a prostitute.) I can imagine what those religious men were thinking: “How embarrassing, such a sinner breaking into this ‘Jesus meeting.’ We were talking theology here, and suddenly this streetwalker barged in.”
The sinful woman fell to her knees, cupped Jesus’ dusty feet in her hands, and began to bathe them with her tears. At this, the Pharisees must have gasped, “Oh, no. How can Jesus allow this woman to touch him? It’s contrary to the law to have contact with anyone who’s unclean. He shouldn’t even let her touch his garments. Yet here he is allowing a prostitute to hold his feet.”
At that point, she did something unthinkable: she let down her hair. No decent Jewish woman would have performed such an act in public. Yet this disreputable woman used her hair to wipe Jesus’ feet clean. Finally, she opened the alabaster box and poured perfume on Christ’s feet.
The Pharisees were indignant now, thinking, “How shameful! This is eroticism. Jesus can’t possibly be a prophet. If he were truly sent from God, he would have known this woman is evil and stopped this display of flesh right away.” Indeed, Scripture says these were Simon’s exact thoughts (see Luke 7:39).
But Jesus read his host’s mind and announced, “Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee” (7:40). I want to pause here to consider Jesus’ words to Simon. The fact is, after reading this story several times, I was stopped by the Holy Spirit and heard him whisper to me, “David, I have something to say to you in this story.” Indeed, I believe the Lord has something to say to all of us here.
I felt prompted to put myself in this story and to examine myself in the light of its truth. Immediately, I saw there are two spirits at work in the passage: the spirit of Phariseeism, and Christ’s spirit of forgiveness and restoration. The Pharisees exuded a judgmental, holier-than-thou spirit, and they were judging both the notorious woman and Jesus. But Christ manifested the spirit of forgiveness and restoration as he told Simon he had something to say to him.
I confess that as I placed myself in this scene, my first thought was, “Of course, I have Jesus’ spirit. I’m a friend of sinners. I have spent years in ministry to addicts and alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the worst of sinners. I don’t have any Phariseeism in me.”
Or so I thought. Indeed, most of us think, “I’m not that kind of believer. I don’t judge others.” Yet it is the spirit of Phariseeism that reasons, “I’m not like others. I am more righteous, more holy.” At times most of us have allowed envy, jealousy or anger to color our opinions of others.
To me, the best definition of a Pharisee is “one who monitors the sins of others while justifying himself.” Jesus illustrates this by pointing to a Pharisee’s prayer in the Temple: “God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers…I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess” (Luke 18:11–12).
Simply put, the spirit of Phariseeism says, “Everyone else is in error. All around, I see nothing but sin and compromise. Yet I have it right. I’m a defender of the truth.” What was it that Jesus had to say to Simon?
Christ told Simon a parable about two men who owed a creditor money: “The one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?” (Luke 7:41–42).
Simon seemed to get the message. The next verse reads, “Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most” (7:43). What exactly was Christ’s message to this Pharisee? In short, he was telling Simon, “You’re the one who needs forgiveness.”
You see, when Jesus first told him, “I have something to say to you,” he meant, “I want to show you what’s in your heart. This moment around the table isn’t about this woman who has come in here. It’s about you, Simon. It’s about the spirit in you, your religious pride, your arrogance, your judgmental spirit, your lack of compassion.”
I believe Jesus was telling the proud Pharisee, in essence: “This so-called ‘wicked’ woman knows the depths of her depravity. She knows she deserves judgment. And she has admitted her hopelessness and sees herself as the worst of sinners. The very reason she came here and did this is because she’s so grateful for mercy and cleansing.
“This woman sees your disdain for her, Simon. She hears the whispers among all of you and feels your judgmental wrath. But she won’t judge you in return. No, she will love you in spite of it. That’s because she knows what she has been forgiven of. She is capable of loving everyone else, because she has been so loved in spite of her own sins. Now she feels she has no right to judge others.
“But you, Simon, don’t see the depravity of your own heart. You sit in judgment of this broken woman, but you don’t see that you need as much, or even more, mercy. You think she needs much forgiveness and that you need little. But that isn’t so.”
Consider what Jesus had previously said to the Pharisees: “That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man” (Mark 7:20–23).
In my fifty years of ministry, I have seen so much foolishness, so much that’s false, so much merchandising of the gospel, so much extortion and false doctrine. And I know that all of it has grieved the Lord. Jesus drove out the moneychangers in his day and he exposed what was false. But he reserved his fiercest denouncements for Phariseeism. The gospel accounts convince me that there was nothing Christ hated more. My prayer in recent weeks has been for the Lord to show me the Phariseeism in my own heart.
I have prayed, “Jesus, before I preach another sermon about the condition of your church — before I say another word about the shortcomings of another ministry — please, show me my own heart. Holy Spirit, mighty surgeon, cut deep down to my cancer and x-ray my heart. Show me the pride and hardness in my own heart.”
Recently I read that there are 3,700 Pentecostal denominations in America and some 27,000 worldwide. In addition to these, there are thousands of charismatic groups and small denominations. In Brazil and Argentina, Nigeria and other African countries, there are multiplied hundreds of these denominations. Baptists are not far behind in the number of various denominations.
Many of these denominations are doctrinally sound, do a great work, and are raising up spiritual churches. They’re preaching the gospel powerfully and winning great numbers of souls. But there is also much that is blasphemous, many false prophets, and much begging for money from the poor.
So it was in the days of Christ. There were so many types of Pharisees, so many splinter groups of Saducees, so many opposing priests. False doctrines abounded, widows were robbed and the elderly had their houses stolen, all for “religious” reasons.
Jesus made it clear that one day the perpetrators of such sinful acts will all be judged. They will each stand before him on that day and account for what they did. Yet while Jesus ministered on earth, he refused to spend time monitoring these people’s affairs. He was not yet sitting on his judgment seat; instead, he placed his focus squarely on the work of his kingdom.
In the coming days, we’re going to see a rise in foolishness and falsity in the church such as never before. Angels of light will emerge, demon-possessed preachers and evangelists whose speech is glib, articulate and enticing. These men will be mighty in their presence and smooth in preaching a word that is wholly devil-inspired.
Not long ago I saw one such evangelist on television holding a fund-raising drive. He told a wild story about a woman who gave $100 to his ministry and within weeks she received an inheritance of more than $800,000.
I was glued to my chair in shock as I watched this horrible enticement go on. Soon I was burning in anger, and I shouted to the heavens, “I’m going to expose that man!” Yet, the next thing I knew the Lord was whispering to my heart: “No, you’re not. You’re going to leave him alone. The blind lead the blind, and they all end up in the ditch.”
I truly believe my desire was to defend the gospel, but I was reacting in my flesh. The fact is, Jesus has already made a statement on this very subject. His disciples came to him one day saying, “Master, you’re offending the Pharisees by what you teach.” Jesus answered them, “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” (Matthew 15:14).
I have been compelled to deliver many a strong word during my years of ministry, words that came against the false and the foolish. I’m not backing away from that, though I know at times I’ve been misguided in my zeal. Yet things are going to become so bad, with so much that grieves the Lord, we could easily spend all our time trying to put out those fires. Christ tells us that is not to be our primary focus. Instead, he gives us a clear word about what our purpose is to be in these last days. We are called to restore the fallen.
Consider the other spirit that was manifested in Simon the Pharisee’s house that night: the spirit of forgiveness and restoration. Scripture tells us, “And he turned to the woman” (Luke 7:44). Here I see Jesus showing us where our focus must be: not on false religion, not on false teachers, but on sinners.
Looking away from Simon and his guests, Jesus turned to the woman and said, “Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much…. Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace” (7:47, 50). Jesus was revealing here why he came: to befriend and restore the fallen, the friendless, those overtaken by sin. And he is saying to us today, “This is what my ministry is all about.”
Likewise, says the apostle Paul, this is what our focus must be. We are not to judge a fallen person, but to seek to restore them and remove their reproach. In fact, he made this the test of true spirituality: a readiness to restore a fallen person. “If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Galatians 6:1).
When Paul uses the phrase “considering thyself,” he’s asking the Galatians to recall their own past needs for mercy. In other words: “What has Christ forgiven in you? What reproach in your past did mercy remove? Did the Lord cover those sins? Now consider all the unkind deeds and thoughts in your daily life, and your own need for Christ’s ever-flowing grace and forgiveness.”
The theologian John Calvin said, in essence: the Christian who judges the sins of others, while guilty himself, is like a convicted criminal who ascends the judge’s seat to convict another. Hence Paul’s warning: “Considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”
Paul then quickly adds this instruction of Christ’s way: “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (6:2). What is the law of Christ? It is love: “A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another” (John 13:34).
The truth is that sin is man’s heaviest burden. We simply cannot overlook or condone sin in others. But there is a way to help bear up others in their burden, and that is gentle, loving kindness and correction. We are to restore repentant brothers in gentleness and love.
Paul wrote to Timothy about how to deal with those who are in “the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will” (2 Timothy 2:26). He instructs, “The servant of the Lord must not strive [with them]; but be gentle…apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil” (2:24–26). It is important that we fully understand what Paul is saying in this one verse.
As we read Paul’s instruction to “bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ,” we have to ask ourselves: “Do I truly want to live pleasing to the Lord, fulfilling his Word?”
Oh, the many, many ways I have tried to please God. I’ve prayed, “Oh, Lord, prostrate me before your presence. Let me weep with brokenness. Make me contrite, stir my spirit, let no lukewarmness infect me. Give me a greater passion for your Word.”
All of these things are good, they’re scriptural, and doing them makes us feel good, because we know we’re doing things that please God. Yet Paul says, “Here is what the Lord wants most from us. Here is his word on how to fulfill the law of Christ: Bear the burdens of others. Restore the fallen.”
I can’t shake off these words from Paul. They leave me asking, “Lord, how exactly do I bear someone else’s burden? I can’t bear another’s sin; that is Christ’s work alone. Yet, Lord, I hear you saying that this is what you desire. Therefore it ought to be the one thing I know how to do, but I don’t. Where are the directions?”
This is what I hear from the Holy Spirit: I’m to ask him to dig out all my pride, all my envy and jealousy, all my judgmentalism and misguided zeal. And I’m to ask him to give me his spirit of forgiveness and forbearance. In short, I am to seek the spirit that Jesus had in Simon’s house.
When we have such a spirit in us, it works like a mighty magnetic force to draw those who need God’s mercy. It’s what drew the notorious woman to the spirit of compassion in Jesus. We know it is the Holy Spirit’s work to woo and draw sinners to Christ. But why would the Holy Ghost send a person needing forgiveness to us if we don’t have the spirit of forgiveness?
The great evangelist George Whitefield and John Wesley were two of the greatest evangelists in history. These men preached to thousands in open meetings, on the streets, in parks and prisons, and through their ministries many were brought to Christ. But a doctrinal dispute arose between the two men over how a person is sanctified. Both doctrinal camps defended their positions strongly, and some vicious words were exchanged, with followers of both men arguing in unseemly fashion.
A follower of Whitefield came to him one day and asked, “Will we see John Wesley in heaven?” He was asking, in effect, “How can Wesley be saved if he’s preaching such error?”
Whitefield answered, “No, we will not see John Wesley in heaven. He will be so high up near Christ’s throne, so close to the Lord, that we won’t be able to see him.”
Paul called this kind of spirit “enlargement of heart.” And he had it in himself as he wrote to the Corinthians, a church in which some had accused him of hardness and who had sneered at his preaching. Paul assured them, “O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged” (2 Corinthians 6:11).
When God enlarges your heart, suddenly so many limits and barriers are removed. You don’t see through a narrow lens anymore. Instead, you find yourself being directed by the Holy Spirit to those who are hurting. And the hurting are drawn to your compassionate spirit by the Holy Ghost’s magnetic pull.
So, do you have gentleness of heart when you see hurting people? When you see a brother or sister who has stumbled into sin…who is having problems…who may be headed toward divorce…are you tempted to tell them what’s wrong in their lives? They don’t need to be told that, because most likely they already know. What Paul says such hurting ones need is to be restored in a spirit of meekness and gentleness. They need to encounter the spirit that Jesus demonstrated at Simon’s house.
Here is the cry of my heart for my remaining days: “God, take away all narrowness from my heart. I want your spirit of compassion for those who are hurting…your spirit of forgiveness when I see someone who’s fallen…your spirit of restoration, to take away their reproach.
“Take away all exclusiveness from my heart, and enlarge my capacity to love my enemies. When I approach someone who’s in sin, let me not go in judgment. Instead, let the well of water springing up in me be a river of divine love for them. And let the love that’s shown to them kindle in them a love for others.” ■
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Post by menorah on Aug 19, 2006 3:16:53 GMT -5
The world's entire morality and that of a large portion of the church are only a spurious benevolence. You see a family very much united and you say, How they love one another! So they do; but they may be very exclusive. They may exclude themselves and shut off their sympathies almost entirely from all other families, and they may consequently exclude themselves from doing good in the world. The same kind of a morality may be seen in towns and in nations. This makes up the entire morality of the world.
Many have what they call humanity, without any piety; and this is often highly esteemed among men. They pretend to love men, but yet after all do not honor God, nor even aim at it. And in their love of men, they fall below some animals. I doubt whether many men, not pious, would do what I knew a dog to do. His master wanted to kill him, and for this purpose took him out into the river in a boat and tied a stone about his neck. In the struggle to throw dog and stone overboard together, the boat upset; the man was in the river; the dog, by extra effort, released himself from his weight, and seizing his master by the collar, swam with him to land. Few men would have had humanity enough--without piety--to have done this. Indeed men without piety are not often half so kind to each other as animals are. Men are more degraded and more depraved. Animals will make greater sacrifices for each other than the human race do. Go and ask a whaleman what he sees among the whales when they suffer themselves to be murdered to protect a school of their young. Yet many mothers think they do most meritorious things because they take care of their children.
But men, as compared with animals, ought to act from higher motives than they. If they do not, they act wickedly. Knowing more--having the knowledge of God and of the dying Savior as their example and rule, they have higher responsibilities than animals can have.
Men often make a great virtue of their abolitionism though it be only of the infidel stamp. But perhaps there is no virtue in this, a whit higher than a mere animal might have. Whoever understands the subject of slavery and is a good man at heart will certainly be an abolitionist. But a man may be an abolitionist without the least virtue. There may not be the least regard for God in his abolitionism, nor even any honest regard to human well-being. He may stand on a principle which would make him a slaveholder himself, if his circumstances favored it. Such men certainly do act on slaveholding principles. They develop principles and adopt practices which show that if they had the power, they would enslave the race. They will not believe that a man can be a colonizationist and yet be a good man. I am no colonizationist, but I know good men who are.-- Some men not only lord it over the bodies of their fellow men, but over their minds and souls--their opinions and consciences--which is much worse oppression and tyranny than simply to enslave the body.
Often there is a bitter and an acrimonious spirit--not by any means the spirit of Christ; for while Christ no doubt condemns the slaveholder, he does not hate him. This biting hatred of evil-doers is only malevolence after all; and though men may ever so highly esteem it, God abominates it.
On the other hand, many call that, piety, which has no humanity in it. Whip up their slaves to get money to give to the Bible Society! Touch up the gang; put on the cat o'nine tails; the agent is coming along for money for the Bible Society! Here is piety (so called) without humanity. I abhor a piety which has no humanity with it and in it, as deeply as I condemn its converse--humanity without piety. God loves both piety and humanity. How greatly then must He abhor either when unnaturally divorced from the other!
All those so called religious efforts which men make, having only self for their end, are an abomination to God.
Finney
I really do see some delighting in showing how they are persecuted as if to say look at me rather than weeping over the lost. I see alot of flesh and self on this topic. I may be wrong but I posted Wilkersons article which I received this week in the mail. He does a good work and I cant imagine him using the same approach as some here. We shouldnt even be seen it should be Christ and the Godly men of Old that may have said such things as being discussed here were totally consumed with God.. they were a different breed; men of power but of humility. I pray we all reach that place. Would you take a sinner into your home? or for a coffee. We are to look at people as individuals as people and not as projects. Anyone got any testimonies of souls coming to the Lord?
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Post by beniah on Aug 19, 2006 5:33:25 GMT -5
The question is not...WWJD?
This implies that the majority of the population have come to know a BIBLICAL version of Jesus rather than a NEW AGE version bearing a striking resemblance to themselves and incorporating a wide range of non biblical opinions that are based upon the teachings and philosophy of the Reverend Dr. Joseph Fletcher.... The author of a book called SITUATION ETHICS.
Most Christians don't even realize that they are the disciples of Dr. Fletcher in their hearts!
The REAL question is WWYDWJ?
This question implies that the SINNER is on the spot before a Holy, Righteous and Wrathful God who will hold that sinner to account for every word, thought and action....and hold him to account for what he did with the New Testament revelation of Christ, not the New Age revelation of Christ.
WWYDWJ simply stands for What Will You Do With Jesus? And again, this implies a New Testament revelation of Jesus Christ...the ONE who is coming back to JUDGE.
Additional consideration should be given to the GOD ABHORS YOU phrase and message. A consideration that rejects the Barry Manilow School of ministerial philosophy where FEELINGS are the determining factor and standard by which the communication of Biblical truths are measured.... I wish that Jesus had taken into account the rich young rulers feelings when that poor (righteous) young man was told he needed to sell ALL of his stuff.... Give me a break man, why couldn't the Lord have cut the guy some slack already and have at least suggested to him that he only needed to sell 1/2 of his stuff...that poor fella went away sorrowful...his feelings were hurt and he wasn't even a hard core sinner or sodomite!
If one desires to possess the same attitude as that of the Divine author of the New Testament on the subject of SIN relative to the word ABHORENCE then one of the best ways of getting a FEEL for the heart of God on this subject is to study the words that the Holy Spirit gave to men when they wrote the scriptures. One word that you will find used is the scriptures is the word ABORRENT and variations of that word such as ABHOR and ABHORS.
According to Roget's Thesaurus you will find that the meaning of the word ABHORRENT is explicated in the following manner:
Abhorrent Defined: Something that is so objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation. SYNONOMOUS with: abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, disgusting, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean SYNONOMOUS with: nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched.
So we can conclude that Romans 12:9 ".....Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." actually means that we are to have an attitude towards SIN that sets us at odds with the vast majority of those who claim to be Born Again Christians in this age of the Laodicean Church!
Finally, The message that declares the biblical reality that God Abhors the homosexual sinner is an undeniable BIBLICAL TRUTH that goes against the grain of modern day evangelical theology which has migrated to the aisle of the Unitarian Universalist far more than it is willing to admit. It has done this so that it might expand its numbers in a culture where the Church has become irrelevant for the most part and according to Ron Luce, faces a terminal illness of Titanic proportions. That illness is manifested in the reality of a lost generation of youth that see both PLASTIC people in charge of a PLASTIC Church representing a PLASTIC form of Christianity. It is the ancient illness of a snake skin religion that has infected the modern day church. That dead skin can not deliver the reality of a Book of Acts form of Christianity any more than TBN can usher in the Kingdom of God. The present day version of evangelicalism desperately needs a wake up call to forsake the current template of CHRIS-SIANITY that is based upon the Hindu doctrine of Ahisma or the art of non-offense.
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Post by menorah on Aug 19, 2006 7:33:10 GMT -5
Jesus is a rock of offense to some. For those who reject hiim.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 19, 2006 10:54:59 GMT -5
ab·hor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-hôr) tr.v. ab·horred, ab·hor·ring, ab·hors To regard with horror or loathing; detest
Ps 5:6 - "You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."
The way I see it, the harder the sinner is, the sharper the truth is needed to penetrate his heart. Jesus always preached the hardest truths to the hardest sinners, and the softest truths to the humblest of sinners. You could say, "Sharp to the hard, soft to the humble" if you wanted to.
Of coarse our heart must always be soft, but when dealing with hard sinners, our message must be hard, as Jesus was.
Ruben goes to the hardest of sinners. He just got back from bike week, with all the bikers. He goes to Mardi Gras every year. He goes to homosexual parades. He has a hard message for hard sinners.
Can we all at least agree that God does abhor sinners? Even if we don't like it on signs, can we all at least agree that it's true? That God is disgusted and dissatisfied with, not only homosexuals, but all those who willingly commit sin against Him?
Can we all at least agree that it's biblically true and that a sinner who thinks otherwise has a false perspective of God and a false perspective of himself?
Y - N ??
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Post by menorah on Aug 19, 2006 11:41:11 GMT -5
True but we need to be careful of not being self righteous and remember what we were saved from. Also that its about people not a project. com·pas·sion Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French, from Late Latin compassion-, compassio, from compati to sympathize, from Latin com- + pati to bear, suffer -- more at PATIENT Date: 14th century : sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it pity
Inflected Form(s): plural pit·ies Etymology: Middle English pite, from Old French pité, from Latin pietat-, pietas piety, pity, from pius pious Date: 13th century 1 a : sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy b : capacity to feel pity 2 : something to be regretted <it's a pity you can't go> synonyms PITY, COMPASSION, COMMISERATION, CONDOLENCE, SYMPATHY mean the act or capacity for sharing the painful feelings of another. PITY implies tender or sometimes slightly contemptuous sorrow for one in misery or distress <felt pity for the captives>. COMPASSION implies pity coupled with an urgent desire to aid or to spare <treats the homeless with great compassion>. COMMISERATION suggests pity expressed outwardly in exclamations, tears, or words of comfort <murmurs of commiseration filled the loser's headquarters>. CONDOLENCE applies chiefly to formal expression of grief to one who has suffered loss <expressed their condolences to the widow>. SYMPATHY often suggests a tender concern but can also imply a power to enter into another's emotional experience of any sort <went to my best friend for sympathy> <in sympathy with her desire to locate her natural parents>.
Jesus also weeps. We are to weep and wail for souls. Do we have a hearts cry for the lost. Not in that we dont address the sinfuless of sin...(which is a very good book to read!)
Of course our heart must always be soft, but when dealing with hard sinners, our message must be hard, as Jesus was.
I agree totally. We are to snatch some from the fire and some not to even touch their clothes.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 19, 2006 11:49:52 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad that we can at least agree on that!
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Post by menorah on Aug 19, 2006 12:41:08 GMT -5
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Post by messengermicah on Aug 19, 2006 23:47:42 GMT -5
menorah,
Who is self righteous on this site?
Who does not have compassion?
Who is taking pride in and in the flesh over the persecution they receive?
Do you preach open air?
Do you PREACH (not witness) open air at homosexual parades?
Do you go into public places, lift up your voice and let homosexuals know they will not inherit the kingdom of God, that they are an abomination to God, and unless they repent and turn to Jesus Christ they will end up in hell forever?
If you do not then you need to stop giving advice.
I have posted this several times before but it seems some still choose to have selective hearing. You asked for testimonies of souls coming to Christ.
There is a man who is now going all over the country preaching full time on college campuses who was delivered from a homosexual lifestyle from Ruben and his team's preaching at Mardi Gras.
I just read a newsletter of his the other day. He is from New Orleans. I have met him and heard him preach myself.
Is that not good fruit?
I appreciate David Wilkerson and I have received his newsletter for years. I was a monthly contributor to his ministry for several years. We called and asked them if they sent a team to a homosexual parade in their area and they told us they don't believe in doing that sort of thing.
Why not? Isn't it by the foolishness of PREACHING (public proclamation) that men are saved?
I have studied and read about many, many men of God. They were all different. They had different methods, personalities, ideas, etc. You can't use one man and try to apply his methods to everything. David Wilkerson does not and never has preached at homosexual parades or Mardi Gras.
Preaching is a whole different ball game than witnessing one on one.
I think you are making a mistake trying to compare ministering to homosexuals to ministering to homeless and drug addicts.
I don't think you have much experience preaching to homosexuals.
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Post by jesussaves on Aug 20, 2006 6:04:46 GMT -5
How is it that you judge a man that you've never met? And who made you his master???
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Post by biblethumper on Aug 20, 2006 8:10:43 GMT -5
Micah Said: I appreciate David Wilkerson and I have received his newsletter for years. I was a monthly contributor to his ministry for several years. We called and asked them if they sent a team to a homosexual parade in their area and they told us they don't believe in doing that sort of thing.Why not? Isn't it by the foolishness of PREACHING (public proclamation) that men are saved?I have studied and read about many, many men of God. They were all different. They had different methods, personalities, ideas, etc. You can't use one man and try to apply his methods to everything. David Wilkerson does not and never has preached at homosexual parades or Mardi Gras.
Response: David Wilkerson has never preached at a homosexual parade or at Mardis Gras.
Thanks for pointing that out.
He has, however, a solidly Biblical congregation of over 8000, 00 members.
I believe his preaching is solid....however, it is his LIFESTYLE which God has used to DRAW men and women to hear him preach.
And oh! He didn't have to dress like a cow or call homosexxuals homo's.
Imagine that!
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