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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 3, 2006 20:12:58 GMT -5
Jesus said in Matthew 23:11 "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." I have no problem being told to serve others including men. Read Phillipians 2:1-11... I am more than willing to follow my master's example.
There's a difference servitude and being a victim of descrimination. In Corinthians, Paul encouraged women to cover their heads so as not to attract the attention of the angels (something to that effect). We wouldn't want to give the angels the idea that people in a place of servitude could be something more, is basically what he's saying. At the least, I think men should undergo the exact same rights of protection.
The only problem you should have is being told that you should serve men just because. Why shouldn't they serve, too?
As for the websites, I read through all of your posts out of respect even if I don't like what they say. I hope you would show me the same respect and read the things that I have posted including the websites.
Thank you, you are correct. I apologize for my disrespect. If you'll allow me, I'll get back to those websites and then let you know what I think. For now, the initial reaction still stands, but I will give it the credit it deserves.
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Post by Alison on Apr 3, 2006 20:29:57 GMT -5
Hi Alison, I thought I did respond to hopefulheart's post. Could you help me by pointing out which questions or comments he made that weren't addressed? Much appreciated... Btw, we might not respond to each and every statement someone makes on this MB regardless how differing our views/understandings are with them. Threads tend to vere off course and loose focus on the topics otherwise. But if you have specific and more focused questions in mind, feel free to create a new thread for them which can help discussions. Blessings I appreciate your attitude here. Unfortunately the task you laid before me is quite daunting and honestly, not something I have time to go back and do right now. So let me just direct you to the continued postings of Hopeul Heart as a source of points with which to engage discussion. I do hate to blow off you request like this, because you seemed so refreshingly nice, and I've been responding away to people that take low blows at me. But I though I would reply and explain why I'm not answering you question. The thing is (unlike Hopeful Heart's) my posts on here are probably going to be very quick responses to specific things that stick out to me as things that need to be responded to. I think I've said this several times, I feel like I keep bringing it up, but I do feel badly that I really don't have much time to spend laying out thoughtful arguments on here. Anyway, I know it isn't that big of a deal anyway, but I wanted to at least acknowledge your request. Peace.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 3, 2006 20:32:37 GMT -5
Dear Hopefulheart, I am glad that you have joined us on this message board. I think it would be helpful if you visited the following pages as they would help you understand where we are coming from... www.NeedGod.comPlease listen to the messages "Hell's Best Kept Secret" and "True and False Conversion" at this page... livingwaters.com/start.shtmlPsalm 9:7,8 Liz Alright, I feel I've given the sites a decent overview. I see some good points in there, such as what it states about atheists. However, I still see the issue that I first stated, loud and clear. Allow me to phrase it this way. You're concerned about life after death, eternal life. What if we said it this way? "God, your Creation isn't good enough. I want something more. The life and love you've put into this world simply isn't enough. Please provide more. I'll do whatever it takes, just give me more." I encourage you, as I've encouraged others, to stop worrying about what happens when you die. It's irrelevant. If you do things while worrying about the afterlife, then you're doing them for what they'll get you. I wonder, how many people here are guilty of that sin? You know? Gluttony? Wanting more indefinitely? As for me, I believe life is perfect. God is perfect, God made life, nothing God makes is imperfect. The view you take of it, however, is your own doing. Enjoy. PS: I don't even pray to ask for things for others. If you can pray, you can go out and do something about it. Quit telling God that all he's done isn't good enough >< (sorry, I think I just slipped into a rant-mode - I tend to do that when I think about ingratitude)
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 3, 2006 20:38:36 GMT -5
Hopefulheart, You wrote: "But the key point in question is what is 'natural'? If you refer to 'natural' as how we're born, then homosexuality is natural" The text in Romans 1 clearly defines natural and unnatural for you. Natural = Male - Female relationships, Unatural = Male - Male, Female - Female relationships. That is the obvious teaching of Romans 1. The context doesn't allow you to change the meaning of natural. Here you display your idolatrous heart. The Word says homosexuality / lesbianism is unnatural. You say it's natural and attempt to discredit the Word of God. As I've already urged you to stop resisting the Holy Spirit I can only pray that you will stop trying to convince yourself that you're okay. God gave you the conscience for a reason. Conscience means "with knowledge". That means that you hold your views with the internal knowledge that you're wrong. You can study and labor to justify yourself, but in the end you will never be able to convince yourself that your right. I urge you to surrender to the Lord. You're ultimately not contending with man, but with God. At the heart of the issue is your rebellion against God and you know this. Stop hiding behind your refuge of lies and come into the light. Steve
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 3, 2006 20:51:18 GMT -5
And to Manna: By pretending that we were ever meant to be perfect is like pretending we were meant to be God Himself. God didn't make us perfect creatures. If he had wanted us to be perfect, he would have made us so. It's within His power to do so. Did Jesus condemn every sinner he met to hell? No. He basically told them to try harder, to not sin again. He forgave them. Unconditionally. The exception to this may be the ones who refused to repent. If I'm sorry for something, truly sorry, then I think I'll be just fine. Yep, that is true there is no not one Good no, not one, ( But God) the Holy Scriptures says that.. we are all guilty before God.. Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no , not one.. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate. What a terrible place Hell must be. You seem to be a pretty smart person, and to think that there isn’t a Hell, or Jesus wouldn’t condemn you to a place like that, what do you base this on, only in repenting or that you are mere sorry for what you have done in the past.. Do you know that you have made a little god, in your mind that will suit your sins, it is called Idolatry, the oldest sin in the Holy Scriptures and God hates with a passion. It is transgression of the second moral commandment , "You shall not make for yourself any graven image”. meaning that your little god wouldn’t send no one to hell, and you are right!!! This is because it is in your imagination, you have made a little god to suit your sins, if your little god , says that there is no absolute Law, or a Law given, then you agree, If your little god says that it is ok, for the homosexuals or adulterers ( Jesus said if you look with lust , you have committed adultery already in your heart., and to say that it is ok to fornicate, as long as they don’t hurt no one it is ok.. You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned "with knowledge." Isn't it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong? You know right from wrong, like I said you a pretty smart person. So you think that your goodness or works will get you into Heaven, look at this way should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he's in debt to justice and therefore must be punished. Maybe you are thinking that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court today and said to the judge, Sir!!"Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes," the judge would probably respond by saying, "You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it's because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes." The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God's "goodness," will be the very thing that will condemn them. Does this concern you?
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 3, 2006 21:07:42 GMT -5
Steve:
I'm afraid you missed the point. Maybe this is a new concept to you: Not everything in the Bible is right. The contradictions found throughout the Bible prove that. I believe that this is something that's not right. It's like telling your son he's not allowed to cry because he's a boy, or like telling your daughter she can't be an engineer because women were meant to be in the home. It's wrong, and I won't stand by and pretend it's not.
And as for your accusations of me having an idolatrous heart, I counter that there's something seriously wrong with the system if that's the case. I keep my heart spread wide open - bring it on. I challenge Everything I believe constantly, unlike some people who refuse to do so.
“Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” --Buddha
If we didn't challenge what a large number of people consider 'natural' then we'd still have slavery, women's rights wouldn't have happened, and God knows what else.
To Manna:
I've tried to make this clear, and I only wish that it was the last time I'd have to say this, but I know it won't be.
Do I worry about what will happen on judgment day? NO!~ Enthusiastically, no! I do good things because they're good things, not for Any Other Reason, not for anyone's gain. I'm sure I'm quoting this wrong, but "Worry not about Divine things". Stop worrying so much about what you can get out of the deal. That is Your sin. I can just as easily call YOU the idolater, but I'd rather call you a glutton.
So again, NO, I'm not thinking God will overlook my sins. I'm sorry when I do something wrong because it's the good thing to do. If I go to hell, I'm fine with that. You know why? Because life is worth it. How Dare ANY of us ask for anything more.
Thank you. Thank you for the compliments you included and thank you for this opportunity. Yes, I'm grateful for you and everyone else.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 3, 2006 21:50:02 GMT -5
To Manna: I've tried to make this clear, and I only wish that it was the last time I'd have to say this, but I know it won't be. Do I worry about what will happen on judgment day? NO!~ Enthusiastically, no! I do good things because they're good things, not for Any Other Reason, not for anyone's gain. I'm sure I'm quoting this wrong, but "Worry not about Divine things". Stop worrying so much about what you can get out of the deal. That is Your sin. I can just as easily call YOU the idolater, but I'd rather call you a glutton. So again, NO, I'm not thinking God will overlook my sins. I'm sorry when I do something wrong because it's the good thing to do. If I go to hell, I'm fine with that. You know why? Because life is worth it. How Dare ANY of us ask for anything more. Thank you. Thank you for the compliments you included and thank you for this opportunity. Yes, I'm grateful for you and everyone else. Why do you think not that Hell is not a terrible place, read the Holy Scripture?.. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love, and laughter, and other people ,so He will take those blessings away from them. Instead of proving their gratitude by obedience to His will, they use His name to curse, listen to your neighbor sometime. Those and their punishment will be just but severe to the uttermost. Look what Jesus said Hell was like in Mark 9:43-48. I am afraid for you, if you died tonight, where would you go, Heaven or Hell.....please, look honestly into the mirror of God’s Moral Law, then seek the "water" that cleanses every sin. You know what that water is? If someone mutilated , hanged, raped and murdered your mother or sister or brother, and was never brought to justice in this life would you be upset, angry, wanting justice to be served? God word is clear, he will serve justice on those..who are those that a Holy God and Justice will serve , and will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and the wrath of God is on them that is an enemy of God in their mind through wicked works. God does not lie, and he will make sure justice is served, and that place it Hell, everlasting torment, is this what you desire?.. If you don't believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn't the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God's promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar… Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulation, wrath, strife, sedtions, heresies., 21 Envying, murders, drunkenness, reveling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And we tell you this, because we do not want you to perish, neither does God.. Do you know what God did for you and me?
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 3, 2006 22:22:16 GMT -5
Manna, Manna, Manna...
If hell exists as a plane for the spirit to go after the body dies, then yes, that sounds like a terrible place. But you know, if I go there, I'm fine with that. I value God's gifts that much. It seems like you don't.
It seems you have a clear idea about the afterlife. What is it, precisely? The Bible isn't really clear about how the Kingdom will exactly be. Maybe for those who die, the end is just the end? In comparison to the rewards the good people get, that's pretty bad.
If someone mutilated , hanged, raped and murdered your mother or sister or brother, and was never brought to justice in this life would you be upset, angry, wanting justice to be served?
That doesn't mean that I Should want those things. That's Wrath. If you really feel that this concept of 'justice' you have must be enacted on someone else, then it's because you regret your limitations - the fact that you couldn't stop it from happening. I say take responsibility, fight the good battle.
All people ever ask for is "one more day", "one more chance". "God, help me to do well on this test." Do you really think that God gave you free will to beg him for help in everything? I don't. I think he's already given you everything you need and you simply utterly fail to appreciate and make use of it.
Justice - a word I used to encourage. Now, no. "Thou shalt not kill," yet we kill on a regular basis in what we call 'justice.'
It's honestly started to make me nauseous how much you're stressing the kingdom of God. I offer the challenge that I offered to Steve (I think that's who it was): Stop depending on Heaven. It's existence is irrelevant. If you do good things to get into Heaven, you're sinning with every act. Instead, take the worst that can happen - set your destiny to 'hell'. When you can do that and still truly be grateful for God's Creation, maybe then you'll understand what appreciation is...
So don't ask me what God did for you and me. I know. I see it in every ounce of life. And I try my best to appreciate it. Do you? Then stop asking for more.
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Post by Grant on Apr 3, 2006 22:50:57 GMT -5
I also do what the world considers "good", if that gives you any comfort. But its all for GOD's glory, not man's.I try to do good with all that God's entrusted in me as well. But to the second part of that sentence specifically, does that mean if the world still thought that slavery and women's subjugation were acceptible, you'd promote that, too? Oops, the way it was worded made it sound like the pleasing of man. It was meant to mean "the things that are done are considered 'good' even in the world's point of view as well, but not done to please them but done for Christ and His glory." Apologies... Also, what does Jesus say about homosexuality? Again, I love Jesus because he didn't accept the social norm and he hit every topic. I like Paul, but he was a li'l bit afraid to challenge all the norms (like the head-coverings). Correct me if I'm wrong, but would it be sufficient to conclude what Jesus thought by looking at what He confirms as truth and then looking into those truths? If so, here's how I would answer your question: In Matt 20:17-19, Jesus said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He warns us not to remove even a character from it or teach others to do so as well. And the law is clear about sodomy, men laying with men and women laying with women, Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13. If Jesus supports all the stories and content within the books of Moses and the prophets, then I see no argument against it. Let me know if I haven't fully answered your questions. I appreciate your attention to each post and look forward to your response.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 3, 2006 23:16:16 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but would it be sufficient to conclude what Jesus thought by looking at what He confirms as truth and then looking into those truths? If so, here's how I would answer your question: In Matt 20:17-19, Jesus said He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He warns us not to remove even a character from it or teach others to do so as well. And the law is clear about sodomy, men laying with men and women laying with women, Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13. If Jesus supports all the stories and content within the books of Moses and the prophets, then I see no argument against it.
You've completely ignored my point. Jesus hit Every sin - why Not homosexuality? And I believe I've covered Leviticus in my first post. It's late right now, I don't want to go into it again - maybe later.
Even the most conservative people admit that not all of Leviticus applies today. I'm sure that there are some that will say the sun is cold if it will support their argument, though (no, I'm not specifying you or anyone else as to that, just stating that there probably ARE some people like that somewhere)
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 2:06:42 GMT -5
Hopeful heart did you know that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone in the entire new testament... here are some references...
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Jeus is the one who will cast your soul and body into hell.
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Think of it this way, 2Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
You said you do not want to ask God for anything because that would be gluttonous, but God is holding out salvation to you and yet you refuse it. This is the great offense, to refuse God's gift of salvation, of Christ taking every sin that you have ever commited upon himself and then for you to turn and say I am good, I am sorry everytime I sin, I don't need to repent...That is spitting in Christ's face because of the price he paid for your soul. If you will not weep for you soul then we will and if you refuse to give Christ the obediance he requires then you will recieve your just punishment which will be eternity in hell. God is not willing that you go to hell and neither am I! I beg you for the sake of your soul repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ...Jesus said this in Luke 9:26 "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." I just gave you Jesus' words about hell...and here are his words for you...Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 4, 2006 8:21:19 GMT -5
Definitions of repentance:
1) To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2) To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3) To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
I believe I meet those definitions. Thanks, though - I appreciate that you're worried about my soul. I'm worried about yours, too. Recognize when you're being self-serving and realize that's sinful.
Perhaps there's a subtle difference between being truly sorry, trying to do better, and your definition of repenting. Please, share.
And for the record, I haven't turned down salvation. Not once have I denied the existence of heaven. I just don't depend on it, do things for my own gain into there, and beg and plead for it like this life isn't good enough, like Some people. Thanks.
Who said anything about refusing to give Christ the obedience he requires? I think someone else on this board said that's what my concious, my heart of hearts, was for? I think I take offense to your accusation. I'm doing good things not to get into heaven but because they are the good things to do. God is good. It seems very fitting to me.
And also for the record, I'm not ashamed of Jesus' words. Jesus = awesome.
And once again I point out: Jesus said not one thing about homosexuality. Someone - I dare you - take up this challenge. Explain to me why the man who targeted every sin in the book in detail would miss this one that you find so blatantly "abominous".
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 4, 2006 9:12:36 GMT -5
Manna, Manna, Manna... If hell exists as a plane for the spirit to go after the body dies, then yes, that sounds like a terrible place. But you know, if I go there, I'm fine with that. I value God's gifts that much. It seems like you don't. It seems you have a clear idea about the afterlife. What is it, precisely? The Bible isn't really clear about how the Kingdom will exactly be. Maybe for those who die, the end is just the end? In comparison to the rewards the good people get, that's pretty bad. If someone mutilated , hanged, raped and murdered your mother or sister or brother, and was never brought to justice in this life would you be upset, angry, wanting justice to be served?That doesn't mean that I Should want those things. That's Wrath. If you really feel that this concept of 'justice' you have must be enacted on someone else, then it's because you regret your limitations - the fact that you couldn't stop it from happening. I say take responsibility, fight the good battle. All people ever ask for is "one more day", "one more chance". "God, help me to do well on this test." Do you really think that God gave you free will to beg him for help in everything? I don't. I think he's already given you everything you need and you simply utterly fail to appreciate and make use of it. Justice - a word I used to encourage. Now, no. "Thou shalt not kill," yet we kill on a regular basis in what we call 'justice.' It's honestly started to make me nauseous how much you're stressing the kingdom of God. I offer the challenge that I offered to Steve (I think that's who it was): Stop depending on Heaven. It's existence is irrelevant. If you do good things to get into Heaven, you're sinning with every act. Instead, take the worst that can happen - set your destiny to 'hell'. When you can do that and still truly be grateful for God's Creation, maybe then you'll understand what appreciation is... So don't ask me what God did for you and me. I know. I see it in every ounce of life. And I try my best to appreciate it. Do you? Then stop asking for more. So what you are really saying is that Jesus Christ died for no reason, he gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs, read up on how the apostles died and many more, they too give their life, so you and I may sit here to talk about it.…not only that, what you are saying is Jesus was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgement were false.. and add to that there is no ultimate justice, that would mean that the Creator of all things is unjust, and could care less, that he see murders and rape as nothing, that would make him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice. Look at it this way.. if you may…If you think this may be Good news.. And there is no Hell, you won’t Know a thing about it.. as you have stated the end will be the end..No Heaven, No Hell.. complete nothing, you can even say or realize it is good news wouldn't you…
But then on the otherside is the Bad news…If the Bible is right, and that there is an eternal judgement, what are you going to say when you stand before the judgement throne of a Holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed, and you know that you have a multitude of them, as we all have…and God must by nature carry out justice, and Hell will be a just desert( exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is what Holy Scriptures claims, if you don’t believe it, it is still true, it will still happen…why are you trusting in your own merits, risking your eternal salvation, by trusting a wrong belief… God tells us in Holy Scripture , that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, and you can bank on that, that is what we base our eternity on. That Truth is the Word of God.. John 17:7
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 4, 2006 12:10:06 GMT -5
Manna, I honestly get tired of repeating myself to you:
So what you are really saying is that Jesus Christ died for no reason, he gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs, read up on how the apostles died and many more, they too give their life, so you and I may sit here to talk about it.…not only that, what you are saying is Jesus was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgement were false.. and add to that there is no ultimate justice, that would mean that the Creator of all things is unjust, and could care less, that he see murders and rape as nothing, that would make him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice. Look at it this way.. if you may…If you think this may be Good news.. And there is no Hell, you won’t Know a thing about it.. as you have stated the end will be the end..No Heaven, No Hell.. complete nothing, you can even say or realize it is good news wouldn't you…
I didn't say I don't believe in Judgment, I'm not discounting anything that anyone has done. This let's me know that you only hear what you expect and want to hear.
What I have said repeatedly and clearly is that if you are doing things for your own gain, including trying to secure your place in Heaven through good deeds, you are sinning.
But then on the otherside is the Bad news…If the Bible is right, and that there is an eternal judgement, what are you going to say when you stand before the judgement throne of a Holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed, and you know that you have a multitude of them, as we all have…and God must by nature carry out justice, and Hell will be a just desert( exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself.
I'm going to say what I honestly feel. I'm sorry and I've tried to do better. I'm not perfect, but I try. I try to fill my acts with love and hope.
If God wants to send me to hell for trying to do the best in everything, fine. If complete gratitude for everything in this world isn't good enough, fine. I'll see you and everyone else there, Manna. And I'll be ever thankful for what's been done, all the same, even in hell for eternity.
Perhaps you'd like to identify exactly what is it that makes my method and your method different?
This is what Holy Scriptures claims, if you don’t believe it, it is still true, it will still happen…why are you trusting in your own merits, risking your eternal salvation, by trusting a wrong belief…
Why aren't you listening to the words that I'm typing? I never said it wasn't true, except for the fiery-brimstone pitchfork-wielding hell. I believe in a hell on earth, a hell of our own creation. I think that's just as viable a belief. And if I'm wrong, I don't think it's relevant.
God tells us in Holy Scripture , that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, and you can bank on that, that is what we base our eternity on.
You're right - unconditional love. Such a thing gives birth to unconditional gratitude, too. Give it a try - you might like it.
Manna, I think one of us has to admit to some serious sinning, and when concerning gratitude I believe it's more you than me. But that's not for me to judge ^_-
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 13:52:46 GMT -5
Definitions of repentance:
1) To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2) To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3) To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
I believe I meet those definitions. Thanks, though - I appreciate that you're worried about my soul. I'm worried about yours, too. Recognize when you're being self-serving and realize that's sinful.
Perhaps there's a subtle difference between being truly sorry, trying to do better, and your definition of repenting. Please, share.
Hopefulheart, you do have the correct definitions of repentance, but here is something that I think you are missing. Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 says this..."Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance" Christ spoke about how a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruits and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruits (Matt 7:8)... What are your fruits?
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
And for the record, I haven't turned down salvation. Not once have I denied the existence of heaven. I just don't depend on it, do things for my own gain into there, and beg and plead for it like this life isn't good enough, like Some people. Thanks.
I am not serving God so that I can go to heaven, I am serving God because he deserves the glory. If I were to be sent to hell I would still serve him because he deserves my obediance. How is this selfish? Also, I do not pray and ask God to make my life better. In fact I pray and ask him to use me so much that my life will glorify him, if that means being poor, living on the streets, being beat up (has happened), being cussed out, having no reputation, friends, family, etc... then I am more than willing. In fact there are thousands of Christians around the world who are being beaten, shot, tortured, macheted to death and they do not serve God out of selfishness. My life has only gotten worse since I became a Christian and it is getting worse and worse everyday. I rejoice in this because God is getting the glory he deserves out of my broken life. Christianity is everything but selfishness.
Who said anything about refusing to give Christ the obedience he requires? I think someone else on this board said that's what my concious, my heart of hearts, was for? I think I take offense to your accusation. I'm doing good things not to get into heaven but because they are the good things to do. God is good. It seems very fitting to me.
I just read this passage recently and this verse stuck out to me...Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. If Christ says John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Do you keep these?
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his behind, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
And also for the record, I'm not ashamed of Jesus' words. Jesus = awesome.
Then you are not ashamed of this? Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And once again I point out: Jesus said not one thing about homosexuality. Someone - I dare you - take up this challenge. Explain to me why the man who targeted every sin in the book in detail would miss this one that you find so blatantly "abominous".
The reason Christ did not speak directly about homosexuality was because he came to speak to the Jews as seen in this passage Mat 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Israel did not have a problem with Sodomy because they had the Old Testament! In Genesis 19 Sodom was destroyed for their sin specifically for their sin of Sodomy (hence the name sodomy). Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. The Jews had issues with legalism and things pertaining to the law, so that is what Christ preached about to them, BUT Paul who was sent to the Gentiles, who had a problem with sodomy, spoke about it many times condemning it and saying those that practice such things will end up in hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). I would also say that Christ did mention Sodomy indirectly in Mat 10:15, Mat 11:24, Mar 6:11, Luk 10:12. It says that those who reject the gospel Christ's disciples were preaching would recieve a greater judgement than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ mentions Sodom which was destroyed because of its wickedness (chiefly Sodomy) and then he refers to the judgement they reiceved. This is not directly condemning Sodomy but Christ is expressing that Sodom was judged for its wickedness and that those who reject the gospel will recive a harsher judgement. So, he obviously does not condone the sin that Sodom was in i.e. he does not condone Sodomy.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 4, 2006 14:52:21 GMT -5
Hopefulheart, you do have the correct definitions of repentance, but here is something that I think you are missing. Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 says this..."Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance" Christ spoke about how a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruits and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruits (Matt 7:8)... What are your fruits?
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I am not serving God so that I can go to heaven, I am serving God because he deserves the glory. If I were to be sent to hell I would still serve him because he deserves my obediance. How is this selfish? Also, I do not pray and ask God to make my life better. In fact I pray and ask him to use me so much that my life will glorify him, if that means being poor, living on the streets, being beat up (has happened), being cussed out, having no reputation, friends, family, etc... then I am more than willing. In fact there are thousands of Christians around the world who are being beaten, shot, tortured, macheted to death and they do not serve God out of selfishness. My life has only gotten worse since I became a Christian and it is getting worse and worse everyday. I rejoice in this because God is getting the glory he deserves out of my broken life. Christianity is everything but selfishness.
Good, then I want you and everyone else to quit telling me to do things simply to save my soul. You recognize that's sinful, so stop encouraging it.
If Christ says John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Do you keep these?
I try - I think I try hard. I won't claim to be perfect. I simplify things and slam myself against the charges of the 7 Deadly Sins and the 10 Commandments on a regular basis.
The reason Christ did not speak directly about homosexuality was because he came to speak to the Jews as seen in this passage Mat 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Israel did not have a problem with Sodomy because they had the Old Testament!
Riiight... because homosexuals are only born into dysfunctional, pagan homes, right? I think it's foolish to pretend that Jesus didn't come across homosexuality over the course of his missionary.
In Genesis 19 Sodom was destroyed for their sin specifically for their sin of Sodomy (hence the name sodomy). Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Sodomy, related to Sodomite, a citizen of Sodom, the town which was destroyed because of its acts. I spoke on this in my first post, but here goes again.
The sinful act that the Sodomites were commiting was Rape. I'm sure none of is going to say that rape is not a sin. In the context of the story, Lot and his guests had incurred the wrath of the townspeople because Lot had done something that hurt their pride - he, a guest in the town himself, had taken the honor of being a host to guests. This ticked them off. So what did they do? They wanted to shame them in the biggest way possible - rape. Because anyone who was penetrated in those days was considered weaker - women, young boys (which many men kept for that purpose), and even enemy kings caught in war.
The sin was rape. Wrath, if you want to label it as one of the 7 Deadly Sins. Not lust. If it were lust, they would have been just as happy with the daughters Lot offered. After all, what would a large group of men rather rape for pleasure, a man or a woman? Hint: It's not the first one.
The Jews had issues with legalism and things pertaining to the law, so that is what Christ preached about to them, BUT Paul who was sent to the Gentiles, who had a problem with sodomy, spoke about it many times condemning it and saying those that practice such things will end up in hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). I would also say that Christ did mention Sodomy indirectly in Mat 10:15, Mat 11:24, Mar 6:11, Luk 10:12. It says that those who reject the gospel Christ's disciples were preaching would recieve a greater judgement than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ mentions Sodom which was destroyed because of its wickedness (chiefly Sodomy) and then he refers to the judgement they reiceved. This is not directly condemning Sodomy but Christ is expressing that Sodom was judged for its wickedness and that those who reject the gospel will recive a harsher judgement. So, he obviously does not condone the sin that Sodom was in i.e. he does not condone Sodomy.
Yeah, this is especially an example of the boy-sex-dolls. That's the act that Paul spoke against, not loving relationships. He also spoke that it wasn't right for women to lay with women, because both were supposed to be subordinates, not dominants. And women were supposed to cover their heads so as not to catch the attention of the angels. After all, war in heaven happened at least once before - they didn't want to give the angels the idea that subordinates may be equal. But guess what? Women Are equal to men.
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 4, 2006 16:11:26 GMT -5
Hopeful heart did you know that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone in the entire new testament... I'm just saying this because I read the article today, but I just came across a reference that said Jesus spoke more about money than any other topic, "clearly showing that he knew where out treasures lay". It may have been wrong, and I certainly don't have time to go through and count references, but I'm putting it out there. What exactly did you mean when you said he talked about Hell more than anyone? Like he spoke about it more than Paul or those guys, or he talked about it the most? I'm a little confused.
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 4, 2006 16:15:23 GMT -5
I appreciate your attention to each post and look forward to your response. ;D This is definitely why I directed you guys to Hopeful Heart's posts in the first place. lol I'm in awe of his thoroughness and stuff.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 16:29:24 GMT -5
Hopefulheart, I think the problem is that you twist scripture and you decide which parts of the Bible are true and which are not. who are you to say that certain parts are not valid? I am sorry but you can't really do that. Most of the gospels were written by the disciples, Luke was written by a student of the disciples. If you agree with the gospels then you have agree with the book of Acts because it is written by Luke. If Luke is respectable because you agree with what he has written about Jesus then you have to agree with what he wrote about Paul. If Luke agreed with Paul then you have to say that if you agree with Luke essentially you agree with Paul's writings because they are supported by Luke. If you only accept the gospels then your logic will fall apart because they are inextricably combined with Paul's writings. Paul very specifically speaks out against homosexuality, you can try to twist this but essentially all you are doing is fooling yourself.
Just as Christ was equal to God but became a servant so is the woman. And men are required to serve women as well, Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it...I think men have the harder job.
I am looking up definitions for Sodomy and Sodomite and I see no connection to rape.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Ti 1:8-11 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."
The Greek definition for abuser of themselves with mankind is this: arsenokoitēs (Thayer) 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual (Strong's) From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.
Also the word effeminate: malakos (Thayer) 1) soft, soft to the touch 2) metaphorically in a bad sense 2a) effeminate 2a1) of a catamite (A boy kept for unnatural purposes. Websters) 2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man 2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness 2a4) of a male prostitute
Notice the "boy-sex-dolls" are the ones that can't enter the kingdom of God. Why not? Because they are sodomites (not rapists).
Basically either you accept the entire new testament as true (not parts) or deny the entire thing. If you accept it then you have to accept that Sodomy is wrong, if you reject it all then God help your soul, I will be praying for you.
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 16:32:42 GMT -5
Allison, I'm just saying this because I read the article today, but I just came across a reference that said Jesus spoke more about money than any other topic, "clearly showing that he knew where out treasures lay".
It may have been wrong, and I certainly don't have time to go through and count references, but I'm putting it out there. What exactly did you mean when you said he talked about Hell more than anyone? Like he spoke about it more than Paul or those guys, or he talked about it the most? I'm a little confused.
He spoke about money a lot, I have heard that, But to answer your question he spoke about hell more than any person in the new testament (Paul, Peter, Luke, etc...) I think (but am not sure) that he actually spoke more about hell than anyone in the entire Bible, but I am not sure about that. I am positive about the new testament though.
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 4, 2006 16:35:16 GMT -5
To Manna: I've tried to make this clear, and I only wish that it was the last time I'd have to say this, but I know it won't be. Do I worry about what will happen on judgment day? NO!~ Enthusiastically, no! I do good things because they're good things, not for Any Other Reason, not for anyone's gain. I'm sure I'm quoting this wrong, but "Worry not about Divine things". Stop worrying so much about what you can get out of the deal. That is Your sin. I can just as easily call YOU the idolater, but I'd rather call you a glutton. So again, NO, I'm not thinking God will overlook my sins. I'm sorry when I do something wrong because it's the good thing to do. If I go to hell, I'm fine with that. You know why? Because life is worth it. How Dare ANY of us ask for anything more. Thank you. Thank you for the compliments you included and thank you for this opportunity. Yes, I'm grateful for you and everyone else. Why do you think not that Hell is not a terrible place, read the Holy Scripture?.. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love, and laughter, and other people ,so He will take those blessings away from them. Instead of proving their gratitude by obedience to His will, they use His name to curse, listen to your neighbor sometime. Those and their punishment will be just but severe to the uttermost. Look what Jesus said Hell was like in Mark 9:43-48. I am afraid for you, if you died tonight, where would you go, Heaven or Hell.....please, look honestly into the mirror of God’s Moral Law, then seek the "water" that cleanses every sin. You know what that water is? If someone mutilated , hanged, raped and murdered your mother or sister or brother, and was never brought to justice in this life would you be upset, angry, wanting justice to be served? God word is clear, he will serve justice on those..who are those that a Holy God and Justice will serve , and will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and the wrath of God is on them that is an enemy of God in their mind through wicked works. God does not lie, and he will make sure justice is served, and that place it Hell, everlasting torment, is this what you desire?.. If you don't believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn't the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God's promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar… Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulation, wrath, strife, sedtions, heresies., 21 Envying, murders, drunkenness, reveling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And we tell you this, because we do not want you to perish, neither does God.. Do you know what God did for you and me? I think there is a real danger in thinking this way and preaching fire and brimstone (I don't know if that is your usual style, but from this post, that's the feeling I get). Is the goal to scare people into salvation? Hopeless Heart is right when he says that this life is good enough, or something like that. We don't deserve salvation, right? Humans sin. We're nothing campared to God. Good thing God isn't all about justice like you paint Him. I mean yeah, there's that aspect, but really, God is a God of forgiveness isn't he? According to your theology I was pretty sure that he gave up that justice thing to offer us salvation. That doesn't mean he is corrupt, that means he is love. Not loving, but love. I like that actually, because it defines love as of god instead of a characteristic of god, something outside of himself. I guess that's what the "God is love" thing is about. (sorry that was a tangent) I actually think it is an insult to the god you worship to scare people into getting saved. He doesn't want that kind of relationship. As for me, I grew up in a Baptist church and got baptized twice, when I was 7 and then 17. I was afraid of Hell. But now I'm at a point where I no longer call myself a Christian (look who needs preaching to now, right? please, save it. hear me out and try to get my point). The point being that I am not sure about god anymore. I haven't run to a completely immoral life, and i'm not ignoring god. I'm at a place where I need to examine my worldview and the decisions I made when I was younger. I have changed so much since then, and I like to think of it as I've grown into myself. I wasn't sure of myself, but now I am more confident in who I am. Therefore I became a Christian when I didn't know myself. And I think that is a huge decision I made that I need to reexamine. I don't want to commit to god halfheatedly, and I'm not at a point where I can do it wholeheartedly. It's not that I'm not trying. On the contrary, I'm actively seeking "truth". I'm studying the Bible and theology, talking to people (including pastors), etc. I just don't want to become a Christian because I am afraid of Hell. If I do become a Christian again, it will be out of a much purer desire for a relationship with god, not out of fear. And I think that is more respectful to god than jumping into some theology just to cover my bases and make sure I don't end up in Hell. I'm not saying you are a Christian because you fear Hell, I'm giving you my story in hopes of shedding light on a aspect you may not have considered before. From my viewpoint, there is a real danger in using Hell as a tactic to convert people or save their souls.
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 4, 2006 16:42:22 GMT -5
Hopefulheart, I think the problem is that you twist scripture and you decide which parts of the Bible are true and which are not. who are you to say that certain parts are not valid? I am sorry but you can't really do that. Most of the gospels were written by the disciples, Luke was written by a student of the disciples. If you agree with the gospels then you have agree with the book of Acts because it is written by Luke. If Luke is respectable because you agree with what he has written about Jesus then you have to agree with what he wrote about Paul. If Luke agreed with Paul then you have to say that if you agree with Luke essentially you agree with Paul's writings because they are supported by Luke. If you only accept the gospels then your logic will fall apart because they are inextricably combined with Paul's writings. Paul very specifically speaks out against homosexuality, you can try to twist this but essentially all you are doing is fooling yourself. First of all, the gospels weren't written until later, after the disciples. Where did you get your information? And secondly, yes maybe Paul is credible. But (I can't cite anything now, no time, so I'll admit that but I'm pretty sure...) Paul also semi supported slavery. I do know for sure that Paul was human. Paul had faults. Paul was susceptible to the pressures of his social situation, as we all are, and we have to consider that. The only perfect one was Jesus, right? Jesus was the only one able to transcend the popular, the commonly accepted, basically his social environment and reveal god to us. What does he say about homosexuality? I wish I had more time to respond to more of what you said but I have a debate tonight (eek) which I should be freaking out over like 30 minutes ago.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 4, 2006 16:44:52 GMT -5
- The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Ps 111:10, Pr 1:7, Pr 9:10
- We are to serve the Lord with fear. Ps 2:11
- We are too work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Php 2:12
- We are to serve the Lord acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Heb 12:28
- Jesus taught that we are not to fear man who can only kill us, but we are to fear God who can kill both body and soul in hell. Jesus said, "Yes I tell you, fear Him." Mt 10:28, Lu 12:5.
Anyone who has sin in their life needs to fear because the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 16:50:11 GMT -5
Allison,
Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."
Jud 1:22,23 "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Here is a nice little story I heard once. Pretend you are sitting on a plane and the person in the seat next to you is sleeping. Suddenly the pilot says over the intercom "everybody please stay calm, put on the parachute underneath your seat because the engines have failed and we will all have to jump in the next 10 minutes." You quickly put on your parachute, slowly all the passengers begin jumping out of the plane. Suddenly you realize that the person next to you is still sleeping! You wake them and tell them to put on their parachute. The person asks why. You explain that the plane is going to crash and they need to jump soon. At this point you are the only two people on the plane! He says that he doesn't believe you. You begin to reason with them compassionately but they refuse to believe. In an effort to save their life you grab them by the hand and bring them to the door of the plane that is wide open. You push them toward the edge and make them look toward the ground. He jumps back in horror realizing that if you are telling the truth and the plane crashes or he jumps without a parachute he will die, he frantically puts on his parachute fearing what might happen to him if he jumps. You were motivated by compassion but you used fear to show the person the reality of their fate if they did not put on their parachute.
The reason we mention hell is essentially because you do not believe us, so we try to show you your fate if you refuse to believe the gospel. It is scary! But we hope that when you see the reality of hell you will run to the savior out of love because of what he has done to save you from hell and repent!
You know many commercials use scare tactics, commercials regarding drugs, drunk driving, etc... show gruesome accidents or terrible things in order to scare somebody. Nobody complains about these commercials because what they are saying is true and they have good intentions. The same applies to us.
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 4, 2006 17:03:42 GMT -5
Allison, Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." Jud 1:22,23 "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Here is a nice little story I heard once. Pretend you are sitting on a plane and the person in the seat next to you is sleeping. Suddenly the pilot says over the intercom "everybody please stay calm, put on the parachute underneath your seat because the engines have failed and we will all have to jump in the next 10 minutes." You quickly put on your parachute, slowly all the passengers begin jumping out of the plane. Suddenly you realize that the person next to you is still sleeping! You wake them and tell them to put on their parachute. The person asks why. You explain that the plane is going to crash and they need to jump soon. At this point you are the only two people on the plane! He says that he doesn't believe you. You begin to reason with them compassionately but they refuse to believe. In an effort to save their life you grab them by the hand and bring them to the door of the plane that is wide open. You push them toward the edge and make them look toward the ground. He jumps back in horror realizing that if you are telling the truth and the plane crashes or he jumps without a parachute he will die, he frantically puts on his parachute fearing what might happen to him if he jumps. You were motivated by compassion but you used fear to show the person the reality of their fate if they did not put on their parachute. The reason we mention hell is essentially because you do not believe us, so we try to show you your fate if you refuse to believe the gospel. It is scary! But we hope that when you see the reality of hell you will run to the savior out of love because of what he has done to save you from hell and repent! You know many commercials use scare tactics, commercials regarding drugs, drunk driving, etc... show gruesome accidents or terrible things in order to scare somebody. Nobody complains about these commercials because what they are saying is true and they have good intentions. The same applies to us. real quick, i gotta go dang it, but i complain about the fear in our society, so don't include me in that nobody. we are a society driven by fear, among other things. its used by the media, by corporations, and perhaps even by our government. i know the reality of the situation. like i said, saved at 7. spent 11 years trying to reconcile the problems i had with my faith by attempting to assure myself i wasn't going to hell. i've dont my time with christianity. not that that will save me from d**nation, but trust me, i know what you're preaching. i'm just saying i refuse to run to god because i am afraid of the other option. theres that whole free will thing. i'm exercising it. if he is who you say he is, he knows my heart and knows whether or not my seaching for him is true and sincere. I wish i could answer more in depth-ly or something, maybe we should start a new thread on this hell and salvation thing. ill have more time on here after tonight.
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 4, 2006 17:53:41 GMT -5
Manna, I honestly get tired of repeating myself to you: So what you are really saying is that Jesus Christ died for no reason, he gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs, read up on how the apostles died and many more, they too give their life, so you and I may sit here to talk about it.…not only that, what you are saying is Jesus was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgement were false.. and add to that there is no ultimate justice, that would mean that the Creator of all things is unjust, and could care less, that he see murders and rape as nothing, that would make him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice. Look at it this way.. if you may…If you think this may be Good news.. And there is no Hell, you won’t Know a thing about it.. as you have stated the end will be the end..No Heaven, No Hell.. complete nothing, you can even say or realize it is good news wouldn't you…I didn't say I don't believe in Judgment, I'm not discounting anything that anyone has done. This let's me know that you only hear what you expect and want to hear. What I have said repeatedly and clearly is that if you are doing things for your own gain, including trying to secure your place in Heaven through good deeds, you are sinning.But then on the otherside is the Bad news…If the Bible is right, and that there is an eternal judgement, what are you going to say when you stand before the judgement throne of a Holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed, and you know that you have a multitude of them, as we all have…and God must by nature carry out justice, and Hell will be a just desert( exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself.I'm going to say what I honestly feel. I'm sorry and I've tried to do better. I'm not perfect, but I try. I try to fill my acts with love and hope. If God wants to send me to hell for trying to do the best in everything, fine. If complete gratitude for everything in this world isn't good enough, fine. I'll see you and everyone else there, Manna. And I'll be ever thankful for what's been done, all the same, even in hell for eternity. Perhaps you'd like to identify exactly what is it that makes my method and your method different? This is what Holy Scriptures claims, if you don’t believe it, it is still true, it will still happen…why are you trusting in your own merits, risking your eternal salvation, by trusting a wrong belief…Why aren't you listening to the words that I'm typing? I never said it wasn't true, except for the fiery-brimstone pitchfork-wielding hell. I believe in a hell on earth, a hell of our own creation. I think that's just as viable a belief. And if I'm wrong, I don't think it's relevant. God tells us in Holy Scripture , that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, and you can bank on that, that is what we base our eternity on.You're right - unconditional love. Such a thing gives birth to unconditional gratitude, too. Give it a try - you might like it. Manna, I think one of us has to admit to some serious sinning, and when concerning gratitude I believe it's more you than me. But that's not for me to judge ^_- Now talking about the Good, the Bad and the Ignorant… Ignorance of God’s word is not bliss…Matter of fact the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians and exclaims this To them there are some who are ignorant of God- I say this to your shame 1 Cor 15:35… Just look at scripture it is imperative to know God, and to know his word…You have stated that you know God’s word, and if you did, why is that we keep coming back at you, and asking you’ Don’t you know” , just as the writer’s of the New Testaments… If you knew God’s word, you would know that you don’t just take any scripture and build an argument to or lack of better words, to justify sinning as you have done… ‘Don’t you know” , Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame... “ Don’t you know” that the FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom” 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you? If you are a believer and as the temple of God is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit , in the midst of a perverse society, why are you participating in the evils prevalent in society, and not rejecting all forms of immorality… God’s Temple must be Holy, because God’s is Holy… James 4:4 Anyone that is friendship with the world is an enmity of God. Ye adulterer and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God… ‘Don’t you know” That friendship of the world, is spiritual adultery, unfaithfulness to God and our pledge of commitment to Him, If you are embracing the world’s sin, values, and evil pleasures. God will not accept such friendship, for he is a jealous God, and is forbidden by God, and there is only one True God , and He requires obedience to His word: ”Don’t you know”, that the heathen nations worship several gods, for they think that more is better, nor do they require the kind of obedience that the Lord God requires, and that is HIS HIGH Moral Standards as defined in HIS Law, not a value system…By what you have written here you have transgression of the first and second commandments, you be the judge…1.Ye shall have no other gods before me. Do you love God above anything else? Have you set your affections on the Gift instead of the Giver? 2. You shall not make for yourself any graven image? What this means is that we should not make a god to suit ourselves, meaning that a god that has not morals, no concept of what is right and wrong, because they are based on a value system… Don’t you think that I myself once had those, yes, at one time I myself had little g’s that didn’t mind if I was greedy, lied, based my a value system of vain corruption of humanism . And behind greed is covetousness, and behind that is the Root , Idolatry. People that are not satisfied with what they have, but greedy for more and will not hesitate to give their allegiance to the principles and desires of those demons who can get them what they want. It is also close relations to lust, before a person will rape someone, or murder , they will covet ..same with pedophiles , look at all the Catholic Priest and what they have done, and if you look closer you will notice that the Catholic Bible has taken out the commandment # 2, to justify their Idols. And this is not the God of the Holy Scriptures.. and the Bible warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You have a conscience, listen to what it is saying…please look in the mirror of God Law , before it is to late.. What will matter is what God says, His Truth in the beginning, the end, and forever...None of us deserves Heaven, and All that God has for His children ( free from the power of sin and death, and the wrath to come,the only differences between you and me is that i have repented and put my Faith and Trust in Jesus and Him alone i am pardoned ( Fine Paid in Full), Because of Jesus Righteousness, i have a right standing with God now, i have sided with God, and His ways..for they are Life. ,but there had been years before if i had of died in my sins, then God would judge me for those sins, and rightly so...But instead, Jesus took my place , and i am forver grateful, and will live out my days here to Give and bring Him Honor and Glory and Praise..Not by being a hearer of the word of God, but a doer, in obedience, that brings forth Fruit, of repentance unto life, thankfulness, and righteouness( holiness). Who do you have Faith in? When Jesus comes back the second time it will be to judge with righteouness and fire, the Wrath to come( Alison, why wouldn't you warn somebody, not only is it Biblical , but it is the most loving thing anyone can do for anyone)....... look at it this way, time is pushing each of us closer to the cliff of death each day, sooner or later you will stand before Him... I fear for you, i believe that is why you are here, because the Holy Spirit, don't resist..This same Fire(Holy Spirit) that will melt a hard heart will also harden the clay if it is resisted , to a day that you have sinned you day of Grace away... and only God will know that time.. Repent now, and put you Faith and Trust in Jesus, to save you from the wrath to come..
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Post by ejuliot on Apr 4, 2006 20:07:21 GMT -5
Sorry Allison, I did not see this post First of all, the gospels weren't written until later, after the disciples. Where did you get your information?
And secondly, yes maybe Paul is credible. But (I can't cite anything now, no time, so I'll admit that but I'm pretty sure...) Paul also semi supported slavery. I do know for sure that Paul was human. Paul had faults. Paul was susceptible to the pressures of his social situation, as we all are, and we have to consider that. The only perfect one was Jesus, right? Jesus was the only one able to transcend the popular, the commonly accepted, basically his social environment and reveal god to us. What does he say about homosexuality?
I wish I had more time to respond to more of what you said but I have a debate tonight (eek) which I should be freaking out over like 30 minutes ago.
First of all, the gospels were written about Thirty years after Christ died, Most of the witnesses that had heard Christ's teachings, seen his ascension, etc... would still have been alive. Consider this, if I lived in 1976 (30 years ago) and I wrote a biography about what was going on at that time, my book would be considered fairly recent and trustworthy of 1976. If I made up a story about some fictional person who walked around healing people, or even if I took a well known person and added stuff to their life my book would be exposed as a lie because there are a lot of people who are alive right now that lived in 1976. What I am saying is that 30 years is actually considered a very short time for something to be recorded for a historical document. Many other documents were written hundreds of years later (I can't think of any currently) and they are still considered historically accurate.
As for Paul supporting slavery, this is an obvious twist of what Paul said. These are some references to what he actually said, read the chapter for context... Colossians 3:22, Colossians 4, 1Timothy 6, Titus 2, and 1Peter 2. These are just a few. In all of these he tells the servant to be obedient to his master, and to be gentle, and respectful. He also tells the master to treat their servants well because they have a master in heaven. Paul never condoned slavery, all he said was act like a Christian if you are in that position! He tells children to do the same with their parents and he tells husbands and wives to do the same with each other. He even tells masters to treat their servants well. If you want to argue that Paul supported slavery that is fine but also know that Paul was a slave himself... Romans 1:1 says "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, " You see Jesus said himself this Matthew 23:11 "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant" You see, people have twisted this idea and made it seem that the Bible makes women into slaves and says slavery is OK, when in all truth, the Bible tells us to be servants to all, and if someone is in a slavery situation then they should treat their master in a Christian manner. If they can be freed then they should be free, but if not, then they should be content in the situation God has put them in and act like a Christian in hopes that their master would be saved. If their master was saved then they should treat their servants in a Christan manner. Read the book of Philemon, this is about a runaway slave that becomes saved and a Christian master. I hope this helps some. Liz
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2006 21:04:59 GMT -5
You've completely ignored my point. Sorry hopefulheart, I made my best attempt considering my understanding of your question. Lets see if I can do any better this time... Did Jesus mention anything about beastiality? Or how about child molestation? Would you consider these morally okay as well because Jesus didn't specifically call them out?
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 4, 2006 22:23:52 GMT -5
I just got back from Wesley service, and I have a renewed heart. An answer I was looking for was provided to me there. *will get to that later*
I think the problem is that you twist scripture and you decide which parts of the Bible are true and which are not. who are you to say that certain parts are not valid? I am sorry but you can't really do that.
Actually, I can. The Bible describes many things in different ways. They couldn't have happened both ways. But it's ok, many people try to reconsile every account because they can't accept that the Bible was written by men and men make mistakes. I understand, though - Many people are held back by their fear. It's okay, just try harder.
Most of the gospels were written by the disciples, Luke was written by a student of the disciples. If you agree with the gospels then you have agree with the book of Acts because it is written by Luke. If Luke is respectable because you agree with what he has written about Jesus then you have to agree with what he wrote about Paul. If Luke agreed with Paul then you have to say that if you agree with Luke essentially you agree with Paul's writings because they are supported by Luke. If you only accept the gospels then your logic will fall apart because they are inextricably combined with Paul's writings. Paul very specifically speaks out against homosexuality, you can try to twist this but essentially all you are doing is fooling yourself.
The Gospels are a huge example of this. I think you're very foolish to try to reconsile all four of them. Here are some more examples:
1) The geneology: Luke presents a different one from the other two Gospels. Why?
2) Luke presents a kind of 'super-Jesus'. I may be mistaken (maybe it was John or another book instead?), but in one version Jesus doesn't let anyone reveal he's the Messiah, in the other he proclaims it loud to all.
3) The birth of Jesus: In Luke shepards come to see baby Jesus. In Matthew, the Magi. We've combined them all into the Manger Story for Christmas-time. But both don't happen in either version.
Those are very simple ones. Enjoy. I'll provide many more examples if you need them. Or save me time and Google it.
Just as Christ was equal to God but became a servant so is the woman. And men are required to serve women as well, Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it...I think men have the harder job.
And I'm the one twisting views?....
The Greek definition for abuser of themselves with mankind is this: arsenokoitēs (Thayer) 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual (Strong's) From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.
Also the word effeminate: malakos (Thayer) 1) soft, soft to the touch 2) metaphorically in a bad sense 2a) effeminate 2a1) of a catamite (A boy kept for unnatural purposes. Websters) 2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man 2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness 2a4) of a male prostitute
Notice the "boy-sex-dolls" are the ones that can't enter the kingdom of God. Why not? Because they are sodomites (not rapists).
Very good. Now, do you think that these "boy-sex-dolls" were willing? Really? I don't think so, meaning that you're saying they're going to hell for something they didn't have control over. Moreso, it's more likely that the word means the act of keeping a young boy for such perverted purposes. Not the boy himself.
Also note that translations are imperfect. That's why people invest so much effort into improving them. Arsenokoitēs, like the other term, has a broad definition. Many translators are now suggesting that a better translation would be "sexual perverts", a concept that is in no way limited to homosexuals. (Thus Far By Grace ~Neil Alexander)
Basically either you accept the entire new testament as true (not parts) or deny the entire thing. If you accept it then you have to accept that Sodomy is wrong, if you reject it all then God help your soul, I will be praying for you.
Basically, no. Don't create ultimatums that don't exist. I see proof that parts are contradictory, meaning that something isn't true. And as for Sodomy, go back and read my other posts on the word, reply to them, then we'll talk about it.
The reason we mention hell is essentially because you do not believe us, so we try to show you your fate if you refuse to believe the gospel. It is scary! But we hope that when you see the reality of hell you will run to the savior out of love because of what he has done to save you from hell and repent!
Honestly? It comes across quite a great bit as simply the scare-tactics part. I'd say you've failed thus far.
It still feels like you're saying the same thing, just with different words.
Jud 1:22,23 "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
Wait... I've been told repeatedly on here that to hate is a sin...
I think what delays me on this, though, is that you're getting closer to the right thing. It still shouldn't be out of fear, though, but gratitude. Why make people fear for the destiny of their souls? From then on, there's going to be a concern for that because it was the basis of the repentance. Why not out of gratitude? Yes, gratitude... be grateful that you have anything when compared to hell.
I'll think on this one more.
Now talking about the Good, the Bad and the Ignorant… Ignorance of God’s word is not bliss…Matter of fact the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians and exclaims this To them there are some who are ignorant of God- I say this to your shame 1 Cor 15:35… Just look at scripture it is imperative to know God, and to know his word… You have stated that you know God’s word, and if you did, why is that we keep coming back at you, and asking you’ Don’t you know” , just as the writer’s of the New Testaments… If you knew God’s word, you would know that you don’t just take any scripture and build an argument to or lack of better words, to justify sinning as you have done… ‘Don’t you know” , Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame... “ Don’t you know” that the FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom” 1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you? If you are a believer and as the temple of God is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit , in the midst of a perverse society, why are you participating in the evils prevalent in society, and not rejecting all forms of immorality…
Talk about the not listening... It tires me to talk to you Manna. Thanks - challenges are opportunities to grow.
If we didn't take the scripture and justify ourselves against the status norm, there would still be slavery and all those things I've listed many times. Go back to my Very first post. I usually try to respond to everything you've said, but you just repeat the same things I've argued reasonably against over and over while still ignoring the points I've made. Try something new.
I'm willing to bet a lot of these justifications of "listening to what you're told" is what kept all of those discriminations in place for SO long...
I think you have some basic issues just in general. I'll start listening to you again if you at Least take up my argument on the incongruencies in the Bible.
First of all, the gospels were written about Thirty years after Christ died, Most of the witnesses that had heard Christ's teachings, seen his ascension, etc... would still have been alive. Consider this, if I lived in 1976 (30 years ago) and I wrote a biography about what was going on at that time, my book would be considered fairly recent and trustworthy of 1976. If I made up a story about some fictional person who walked around healing people, or even if I took a well known person and added stuff to their life my book would be exposed as a lie because there are a lot of people who are alive right now that lived in 1976. What I am saying is that 30 years is actually considered a very short time for something to be recorded for a historical document. Many other documents were written hundreds of years later (I can't think of any currently) and they are still considered historically accurate.
I think it was 60, at the least. And yes, many of them are considered historically accurate, usually because there isn't much else to go off of. There are a lot of contradictory things in the Bible, though, because there was so much writing done.
Did Jesus mention anything about beastiality? Or how about child molestation? Would you consider these morally okay as well because Jesus didn't specifically call them out?
I was initially tempted to say 'touche' and back up to research, but I believe I'll take a stab at this one all the same.
How can you take advantage of an unconsenting individual, child or beast, and not see something wrong? Theft/murder of innocence? Thou shalt not steal/murder.
But let's go to Jesus' main commendment.
John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Hmmm.... now, I may have to go out on a limb here - I haven't thought about this before.
Are animals capable of conscious love? Can they truly understand the depth of it? What about children? If you truly love them, you'll do your best to make sure that everything you do for them is in love.
Well, that rules out child molestation. If you loved that child you'd ensure that their mentality and heart were at a level to appreciate the implications of the acts.
Animals? Yeah, same thing, even moreso.
Hmm... what do you think?
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Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Apr 5, 2006 8:26:21 GMT -5
Hopefulheart...glad to see that you want to search the Holy Scriptures, the one thing that i find to be a helpful, is study it in context, meaning that before you go digging for treasure, you need a map, and help from a tracker, or a trail leader. (that is the Holy Spirit). Just as a woven rug, Holy scriptures from the Old to the New testament has common threads that run from the beginning to the end..The Bible is a single book, but also a composite, and it makes up many individual parts...that is what i meant about the common threads that runs through scripture, it is both in its unity and its diversity, each section of the Bible plays a role in unfolding drama of God's redemptive plan and purpose for mankind... If you take a bird's eye view of the Bible , the structure, and how the parts fit together, these are teh steps in studing the scripture.. Once the anatomy of the Bible is understood, it is alot easier then to come down to ground level and understand the finer details..
So let's start...I will answer one question, and by the grace of Grace, may the Holy Spirit move over His words, in Jesus Name...
First off you don’t start off in the middle of the Holy Scripture ( Bible), to understand the author(GOD), you start from the beginning…The 4 Gospels that you ask about are in logical order and orderly.. As you can see they didn’t preach to drive several nails in at once as seen today in many preachers. Matthew wrote about a King, Mark wrote about a servant, Luke about His humanity, and John about the Deity of Jesus and believing on him..
One question at a time, please..manna
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