|
Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 24, 2005 1:17:31 GMT -5
I started to put this somewhere else, but I think it qualifies as a doctrinal discussion.
I have noticed and heard certain leaders say that you don't need to preach against homosexuality if you preach the 10 commandments. It goes something like "They are not condemned because of their homosex, but they are condemned it spite of it" and this is true.
What happens though when you are preaching in areas where homosex marriages are legal? Just preaching the straight 7th commandment, Matthew 5:28, etc. is going to be more difficult to convict homosexuals of their sin. I think it is always best to make as much of a direct application as possible to how they are breaking that law. I think it is most effective to give them a combination of breaking God's law, along with Genesis 1, Romans 1 thrown in there also. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 helps also. The more direct the better. Hit it from every possible angle. Search out every hiding place and refuge of lies (Isaiah 28:17).
I think just preaching the law (7th commandment) to homosexuals (especially as homo marriages become legal) is not as effective. It is too easy for them to justify their sin. I think Jesus and mighty men of God from years past would be as direct as possible in targeting the sin.
This will stir up more opposition of course. It is hard for me to believe we are going to speak out against this once it is illegal if we don't speak out against it directly, publicly when it is legal.
What do you guys say?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 24, 2005 10:57:09 GMT -5
My motto is, if it's a sin - preach against it! If Paul did not do this, we wouldn't have scriptures such as Romans chapter 1, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. But Paul directly spoke against the sin of sodomy.
If you talk to a known homosexual, and don't bring up homosexuality, it's like there is a huge elephant in the room and everyone in the room is ignoring it, pretending it's not there, and hoping that it will go away. Here is a good lesson to learn; if you ignore it, it won't go away! The surest way to make sure it stays is to ignore it!
A huge problem I see today is that many are claiming to be "homosexual Christians". I preached at a Sodomite parade in Dallas, and it seemed every other float was from a homosexual church!
If we talk to them about every other sin, except their own most prevelent sin, they might actually repent of lying, stealing, blaspheming, and say they are Christians though they are still practicing sodomy. We must preach it loud and clear to "homosexual Christians" that you cannot be a homosexual and a Christian, that you cannot love sin and love God.
If true Christians aren't going to preach against sin, then who in the world will?
Charles Finney said in his lectures on Revival, “bring up the individuals particular sins. Talking in general terms against sin will produce no results. You must make a man feel that you mean him. A minister, who cannot make his hearers feel that he means them, cannot expect to accomplish much. Some people are very careful to avoid mentioning the particular sins of which they know the individual to be guilty, for fear of hurting his feelings. This is wrong. If you know his history, bring up his particular sins. Kindly, but plainly; not to give offense, but to awaken conscience, and give full force to the truth.”
|
|
|
Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 24, 2005 12:05:26 GMT -5
Amen! I agree with you and thanks for your response.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 24, 2005 22:37:17 GMT -5
Yeah, wasn't that in the one called Preaching as to Convert Nobody?
That's what I usually try to do. While preaching or doing one to one I usually hit on all the "general" sins, and when I see a prevalent sin in someone I go after it full force. Here is an example:
Last night I was preaching and the crowd was not really responsive either way- mad or contrite. I preached on lying, stealing, adultery, ect. Right as I finished and was about to step down from where I was standing a woman came up to me and said, " It is nice and quiet here and I want to hear the music, would you please be quiet!" I then immediately asked her, "Are you a Christian?" She said yes and then I preached heavy on hypocrites- those who say they love Christ or are a Christian yet don't like the Gospel being preached. She then begin to get very mad and grab her kids to shield them from what I was saying. I believe I would have preached on homosexuality if the woman would have come up to me and said something about that. If a sin is blatantly obvious it should be preached against. If the Holy Ghost is come to reprove the world of sin and we are to be led by that same Holy Ghost... it would only be logical to me that a preacher should be uprooting and revealing sin left and right while he is preaching.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 25, 2005 12:08:52 GMT -5
I have heard, "it's the job of the Holy Spirit to convict someone of sin, not the preachers job." That is not entirely true. Titus 1:9 says a preacher is to "both...exhort and convict those who contradict". Your absolutely right. I wrote about this very same thing in my article, "The Help of the Holy Spirit". The full article can be read at: www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14600
|
|
|
Post by Messenger Micah on Dec 25, 2005 12:40:13 GMT -5
Also we are told to "Preach the Word, be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, rebuke, exhort will all longsuffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2. That is the same word as John 16:8 (reprove, convict or expose). Also Ephesians 5:11, "...have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather REPROVE them." In both cases this is OUR job. If we want the Holy Spirit to anoint us we need to cooperate with what He is doing.
|
|
|
Post by Evangelista on Jan 3, 2006 8:31:18 GMT -5
Micah,
You are correct. We need to speak out against it while it is still legal in this country to do so. Homosexuals are bold about their sin and they love it, so we need to be bold about speaking out against it. It is an abomination in the sight of God, and they need to know that.
In Christ, Evangelista
|
|
|
Post by Evangelista on Jan 3, 2006 8:54:21 GMT -5
Jesse,
I'm new to this board, so I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the correct order, but you are correct in your post about preaching against sin. We need to work/partner with the Holy Ghost. We are His ambassadors on this earth and we need to be about His business and do what He does. We are His children.
In Christ, Evangelista
|
|
|
Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 3, 2006 13:09:51 GMT -5
Hi Evangelista!
|
|
|
Post by Evangelista on Jan 3, 2006 15:42:26 GMT -5
Hi Micah!!
|
|
|
Post by lizlovesjesus on Mar 28, 2006 21:51:43 GMT -5
Whenever i preach to homosexuals i wont magnify their sin more than other sins.I will tell them they will get judged for their sin just like all idolaters,fornicators,adulterers etc.They kinda listen to you after that where you are not bashing them as having a greater sin than others.Its all sin.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 21:57:12 GMT -5
While I do not focus constantly on a homosexuals perversion, but will talk about other sins, it is important for people to understand that not all sin is equal in it's magnitude.
While all sins are equal in the sense that they are all crimes against God and are all violations of His Law, some sins are more depraved then others. Homosexuals, rapests, child-moldestors, cereal killers, are much more depraved then petty theives who steal snicker bars.
Jesus said to pilate "he who delivered me unto you has the greater sin". And he also taught that hypocrites will recieve "greater condemnation," that is because there is greater sins.
Charles Spurgeon said "Homosexuality is the only sin that rained hell out of heaven."
|
|
|
Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 29, 2006 20:46:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 29, 2006 21:04:31 GMT -5
I have witnessed to a few, one was in such denial, he claimed that he was a christian, and that him and his partner loved each other like David and Jonathan, now everything i got from him was that he believed that David and Jonathan were gay also..whew..i had took him through the Holy Cannons of God 's law, a study on Idols in The Book of Judges, and if God would condeam the tribe of Ben, where and how would he stand.. but he was so reprobate in his thinking .. i don't know.. i prayed and left it to God...
Then there was another one, who has HIV/Aids, i didn't as must talk about the disease, but the cure..that we all are going to die, and death rates of such in any deviant behavior that is oppose of God's holiness for our life.. to make a long story short( he was open to the things of God, and asking alot questions ), i still do talk to Kevin, his days are numbered for sure, it is a matter of time now..The one thing is to reach out, there are hurting people everywhere, speak the Word of God and in Truth and Love..some of the HIV/AIDs patients are reaching out for hope, for the in the next life..Be ready in season and out, and with any person.
Blessed Regards..
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 29, 2006 22:00:24 GMT -5
I somewhat know Michael Marcavage. He's a very good fella. Repent America is a very brave, bold ministry. I praise God for them and pray they keep winning their lawsuits.
What do you guys think about using the word "gay"? I am against it. I don't think we should use the word gay because it's a positive word describing a negative thing. The bible doesn't use the word. I typically only use the word homosexual or sodomite or pervert because the bible uses those words. But the word "gay" should never be used to describe what they do.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by manna/ E.Wallace on Mar 29, 2006 22:15:46 GMT -5
Jesse.. unless i see the action in progress( the perversion or perverted acts, or such speak that follows the life style), i would say it like it is to them(in Open Air) this was a one-2 one, but if i don't see it, and unless their actions say they are, it may be a set up, they like to set up things , goes with the deprived blinded minds and souls.... But on the case of the two that i mentioned, i did use homosexual, deviant behavior these were talked to several times..the one was ready, ran a Club Here in a Gay strip, and all kinds of perversion came out of it, he is no longer runs that place and left the life style. ..., one was ready to hear, the other ones was justifing his sin. Blessed Regards..
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Mar 30, 2006 0:04:18 GMT -5
I agree. I only use homosexual or sodomite. Never call them gay.
From some of the responses I read above, I do not think some of you preach in homosexual infested areas. When we preach on Lincoln Road they are everywhere, walking by holding hands, and everyone acts as if it is normal. Then when you are preaching they always kiss right in front of you. So it is not like it is an option on whether to focus on that sin or not.
You are preaching a standard law/gospel message and the homosexuals walk by and flash you and start kissing. Now the people start cheering and think it is normal and great. What do you do? Start talking about if you lie you are a liar? Of course not. You rebuke the sin of homosex and destroy the lie right in front of everybody and then give them the cure. Usually though you don't get that far though because like most sinners they love their sin and are not interested in being delivered.
By the way, usually the only time we start a message focusing on that sin is when we preach in front of the homosexual bars.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 30, 2006 10:01:20 GMT -5
It's always good to preach against the obvious. If you see a sin, preach on it. It usually doesn't take long in public to find something to preach on.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 2, 2006 0:33:02 GMT -5
Goodness! It's SO good to observe the passion and commitment of any group of people. If I can help you even just a small way it would be a great privilege.
I think just preaching the law (7th commandment) to homosexuals (especially as homo marriages become legal) is not as effective. It is too easy for them to justify their sin. I think Jesus and mighty men of God from years past would be as direct as possible in targeting the sin.
You know, I definitely agree with this statement. And to think, there threatens to be a day when people look back on homosexuality and wonder what we were thinking. Can we allow that to happen? But it's true, it's happened before! Think about issues that we think that way of today: women's subjugation, slavery, polygamy, and Greek and Roman mythology.
My motto is, if it's a sin - preach against it! If Paul did not do this, we wouldn't have scriptures such as Romans chapter 1, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. But Paul directly spoke against the sin of sodomy.
Paul... now I like Paul. I don't love him, nor do I hate him, but I do like him. That man... that man had some really good points.
Romans 1:26-27 "" Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."
It's just not natural. Straight men giving up their normal straight lives to be with other men and straight women giving up their normal straight lives for other women. Tch. It's just not true to their heart. That's so unnatural. That'd be like a gay man going for a woman. Unnatural. After all, how many people would Choose to be gay? Especially nowadays...
And amazing call on that Corinthians quote. "Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, 'sodomites'..." well, you know the rest - those folks ain't going to heaven. Now, there's a reason I said 'sodomites'. The actual Greek can just as easily be interpreted to mean those who molest young boys, a fairly common practice of the time. But let's go on sticking to the interpretation that talks against loving relationships between two people. I like doing things that way. If we had stuck to that we could have kept slavery, women in check, and justified all terrorism.
Speaking of women, especially the preachers, make sure you're wearing your head coverings. For, although Paul says you're equal in God, he also says that you have to cover your head to keep the head of the household (that's the man) respected. Read it. It's there. But don't worry if you aren't married, it's okay then. Otherwise you're a sinner, though.
If true Christians aren't going to preach against sin, then who in the world will?
Me - I hate sin. But I don't commit myself to any one doctrine because people will assume too many things. It could force me to be narrow in perspective. I'll choose Methodist, if I must - love everyone, the heart of the matter, which is why Jesus is my hero.
Jesus was the man. He preached about Everything! He targeted the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the greedy, the wealthy, everyone who sinned. But he forgot the homos!... Or did he?
It is an abomination in the sight of God, and they need to know that.
Jesus take the wheel! Cuz he made sure to get everything.
Homosexuals are bold about their sin and they love it, so we need to be bold about speaking out against it.
They do love it, don't they? Because being gay is so glamorous. The highest rate of STDs (well, lesbians are actually the lowest), the 'charming' qualities that men give off, and anal sex... Such great marketability.
While all sins are equal in the sense that they are all crimes against God and are all violations of His Law, some sins are more depraved then others. Homosexuals, rapists, child-molesters, cereal killers, are much more depraved then petty thieves who steal snicker bars.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. A sin is a sin. Now, you can argue how many sins one person is committing per act, but the number is the same. Or you can say that it's not the sin but the difficulty to repent from it that's the issue.
And I'm going to be nice and assume you meant serial killers. But for the record, being attracted to men isn't a choice, it's a minor detail that you live with.
And he also taught that hypocrites will receive "greater condemnation," that is because there is greater sins.
You are correct sir. That's what I meant by the difficulty to repent. "Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is the greatest sin." I can't remember who said that, but I love that quote. For instance: If you're doing good things in order to get into heaven, you're sinning. You're doing something selfishly. The end doesn't justify the means. Hypocrites may actually be doing the right thing, in theory, but they're doing it the wrong way. And often they'll never realize it, or worse - they'll stubbornly keep a closed mind and refuse to see another's perspective.
What do you guys think about using the word "gay"? I am against it. I don't think we should use the word gay because it's a positive word describing a negative thing. The bible doesn't use the word. I typically only use the word homosexual or sodomite or pervert because the bible uses those words. But the word "gay" should never be used to describe what they do.
Ah, perfect, an expert translator. You're right, the Bible doesn't use the word 'gay'. Nor does it use the word 'homosexual' - that's a psychology term made in the past 200 or so years. And pervert could mean a lot of things. If you want people to know what you're talking about, be more specific.
Oh, and as for sodomite, the Bible uses that to refer to people from Sodom. You know, the place where the people were threatening to rape the angels? Those are perverts - unrepentant rapists are sinners. Did you know they used rape as a form of punishment? Armies would rape the loser enemy king as a form of punishment/embarrassment. Something like that. Folks back in those days were huge on respect and hospitality, as well. Lot, being a guest in the town himself, was stealing the townspeople's honor by hosting guests. A huge honor. Enough that they were willing to punish the guests and stuff. He offered his girls - if they wanted sex, that would have done it. Not that I know from experience, but it seems like there wouldn't be a lot of benefits to anal sex.
And while we're on the subject, I don't like the word 'straight,' for similar reasons. It's not used in the Bible that way. Never have I seen a person who was really 'straight'. That refers to a line, not a 3D object. Thanks for your understanding.
Here are some other things to note:
God made Adam and Ever, not Adam and Steve. If he had... well we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The point is moot. I've heard God made Lilith, too - what's that about?
Leviticus has lots of good rules. I say we reinforce them. Leviticus sites the holy codes... you know, the things we don't do in church? Having sex in church is an abomination. The end. Oh no wait, so is wearing cotton-poly blends. And going to church while you're menstruating, women. And don't plant two different types of seeds in the same field. Let's put those back into place. I won't allow you to argue with me on this one. Rules are rules. You don't get to choose which ones you obey and which ones you don't. Women, this especially means you.
Thank you all kindly for your time. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm a very religious person - Christian more or less, though I'm open to listening to things from Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and other religions. A virgin. A student. A lot of things.
I dislike hypocrites, people who use the Bible to justify their own small-mindedness, people who don't get all of the facts before going gung-ho and evangelizing to the crowd, evangelizing, alcohol, drugs, hypocrites, rapists, child-molesters, hypocrites, occasions when the word 'gay' is used as a derogatory term, hypocrites, any culture (homosexual, heterosexual, transsexual, or anything) that embraces the horrid underbelly of society (drugs, rape, sluttiness, etc) and ... hypocrites.
Jesus is my hero. "How dare you try to take the splinter out of your neighbor's eye when you can't even see the log in your own!"
Yeah, Jesus was the man. He left no stone unturned.
Recommended reading for today: Thus Far by Grace, a Bishop's Journey Through Questions About Homosexuality, by J. Neil Alexander.
PS: Women, I don't personally support the laws listen in Leviticus and such, I think you're equal to men in every way. When I said I simply liked Paul I meant it - he had some great points, especially about the loving stuff, but he wasn't willing to challenge the societal norms, and apparently neither are many people today.
Bless all your hearts and I look forward to hearing from each and every one of you. Thank you very much for this opportunity to participate in wonderful discussion and comparison of viewpoints. I wish you well on your journey of discovery, love, and understanding.
Have a wonderful life. I'll check here every now and then =)
|
|
|
Post by josh on Apr 2, 2006 0:41:50 GMT -5
I prefer to refer to them as Sodomites
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 2, 2006 0:46:30 GMT -5
Oh yeah, another fun factoid I learned in Psychology. Did you know that homophobes are significantly (statistically) more likely to be homosexuals? In clinical tests they were more turned on by homosexual sex than heterosexuals.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 2, 2006 1:02:40 GMT -5
OH NO JOSH!!!!! HE JUST CALLED YOU A HOMOPHOBE!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 2, 2006 1:12:08 GMT -5
lol, oh goodness no! I'm not referring to anyone in particular, I'm stating a fact. If I want to call someone out, I will =) Thanks for trying to help out, though
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 2, 2006 1:27:09 GMT -5
Why, is that a bad thing to be a homophobe or something? Why is it bad? What standard are you using to JUDGE (you are not judging are you) that by?
I am glad you are not a FUNDYPHOBE like most homosexuals I have met. Why are most homosexuals so narrow, intolerant, judgmental, critical, and condemning of people's beliefs that differ with their own?
Hey by the way, give us the name, source, and details of that test your professor told you about. Do you consider everything discovered from every clinical test a fact?
|
|
|
Post by turkey on Apr 2, 2006 1:34:45 GMT -5
seriously no offense to anyone on this thing.....i dont use big words...i gonna say what i need to in the most comfertable way i can...so here it goes....
first of all i am not a religous person by any means.....i am what some people call agnostic....i now there is A God i wont speficy.....cause for me personally in what has gone on in my life i find it hard to believe that my lord and savior would let it happen....anyways
i think that when people start bringing up the fact that i am gay, and when someone who is christian wants to tell me that the devil is living inside of me and that i will go to hell and all that crap......i really just wanna hit them....because i think that me loving another man is just one aspect of life, it is not everything i do.....for example, when i had a job i would give at least 15% of my check to the salvation army, because i think that people who are less fortunate can use it just as much as i can. Also i know some of the nicest people are gay they are constantly working with charaties and organzations that help people.....and not just gay people...everyone....i honestly think that for someone who does so much for other people....god is not gonna say even though you help all these people, i am gonna send you to hell because you love a man......
okay i am done......later all
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 2, 2006 1:40:30 GMT -5
Why, is that a bad thing to be a homophobe or something? Why is it bad? What standard are you using to JUDGE (you are not judging are you) that by?
No, it's not a bad thing to be a homphobe, people can't control their fears. But to let your fears effect you... well that's not what Jesus would do. I'm not judging anyone. I haven't upset you, have I?
I am glad you are not a FUNDYPHOBE like most homosexuals I have met. Why are most homosexuals so narrow, intolerant, judgmental, critical, and condemning of people's beliefs that differ with their own?
Bless your heart! I never said anything about being a hoomosexual, though. So please don't make assumptions. I don't know what 'Fundyphone' means, could you please explain?
It's been my experience that those characteristics you've raised are not limited to any specific group - they're found all across the board. Some people might say the same thing about this board. I at least Try not to judge, yet still have opinions.
Hey by the way, give us the name, source, and details of that test your professor told you about. Do you consider everything discovered from every clinical test a fact?
Oh, and it wasn't the professor, it was the textbook. To quote:
"Another very interesting study provided support for the Freudian hypothesis that reaction formation undelies homophobia in males. Adams, Wright, and Lohr (1996) found that when homophobic men are shown an erotic videotape depicting homosexual activity, they exhibit sexual arousal not seen in nonhomophobic subjects."
I think I'll apologize because I believe I threw in some key statistics words to emphasize my point without thinking, but thereyouare. Any other way I can help you? And no, I don't make that conclusion, but this one is logical and does match up with everything I've encountered so far.
Again, I hope I haven't offended anyone, messengermicah. That's not my intent at all. This is an open forum for all sides of discussion, yes? Were any of the points I've brought up pertinent at all?
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 2, 2006 1:54:52 GMT -5
Well, yes you sort of did offend me a little. I mean I was looking kind of forward at first to meeting at least one homosexual who was not a FUNDYPHOBE (that is like a homophobe only they are afraid of fundies-that is a fundamentalist Christian). But then you threw out that...that...that...that word...Oh it is so horrible I almost can't bear to think of it...you insinuated...no you assumed....no...you...you judged that some people on this board may be....HOMOPHOBIC!!!!!!!
It is such a hurtful stereotype to label us fundies as homophobes. I am actually going to try to get that one added to the list of hate speech crimes. You know we come on here with a positive attitude trying to help the homosexuals and tell them to repent or they will end up in hell and then they turn around and judge us, label us, condemn, us. It is just so hateful to be called a homophobe.
I better get off the board now because I am really upset by your insinuation and I may not be able to ever get to sleep tonight, so I need to try to relax some.
I do forgive you though.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 2, 2006 1:57:05 GMT -5
seriously no offense to anyone on this thing.....i dont use big words...i gonna say what i need to in the most comfertable way i can...so here it goes.... first of all i am not a religous person by any means.....i am what some people call agnostic....i now there is A God i wont speficy.....cause for me personally in what has gone on in my life i find it hard to believe that my lord and savior would let it happen....anyways i think that when people start bringing up the fact that i am gay, and when someone who is christian wants to tell me that the devil is living inside of me and that i will go to hell and all that crap......i really just wanna hit them....because i think that me loving another man is just one aspect of life, it is not everything i do.....for example, when i had a job i would give at least 15% of my check to the salvation army, because i think that people who are less fortunate can use it just as much as i can. Also i know some of the nicest people are gay they are constantly working with charaties and organzations that help people.....and not just gay people...everyone....i honestly think that for someone who does so much for other people....god is not gonna say even though you help all these people, i am gonna send you to hell because you love a man...... okay i am done......later all turkey, I appreciate your post and not sure you're returning for a response, but if so, here's a shorty... If I killed your mom, but never did it again, 10 years pass and since then I've been giving to charities and living a pretty normal life. Would you say I'm a good person? Good enough to go to heaven? Would you like to see me there with you? Or if you saw me at Starbucks, would you buy me a coffee and chat with me? Of course not, I'd probably make you sick because I hadn't paid the fine for my crime. Man knows that justice must be served, and I killed only once but would deserve to pay the fine, penalty of life in prison. How different is GOD in demanding justice when we violate His Law? The Law simply shines light on where we have fallen short of the image He once created us to be, therefore the Law condemns us. So why eternal hell for such petty things as lieing and stealing or sodomy? It is to Whom we offend against! If I tried to kill you, only ATTEMPT to kill you, I might get a year or two in prison. But if I do the same thing to President Bush I might get 50 years! It depends on who we are doing the offense... He who is of greater value is of greater offense... and GOD is the Creator, He is eternal... therefore the offense is of the greatest offense, and is eternal. You need to repent from your unbelief, sodomy, and all sins, and turn to Jesus as the one to save you! He will change your heart and make you born again. I thank the LORD for you popping on here, and pray you don't rest until you come to Him in a humble and contrite spirit, repent and trust in Jesus. Blessings...
|
|
|
Post by Alison on Apr 2, 2006 2:41:01 GMT -5
First of all, I'm always happy to see a good, open discussion about something.
Now, about this preaching on sins thing. Allow me to quote a quote quoted by my friend Hopeful Heart. (I hope you're still following me here.)
"How dare you try to take the splinter out of your neighbor's eye when you can't even see the log in your own!"
I do hope that none of you have any logs in your own eyes with all the splinter picking that seems to be going on here. What was that story..something about Jesus telling whoever was blameless themselves to throw the first stone at the sinner? Feel free to correct me on that, but I think the story was along those lines.
My point being, from my personal experience, many Christians are very eager to condemn "sinners" such as homosexuals, but slow to act on those things that God really seems to care about, such as helping the impoverished, which by the way, is mentioned something like 2000 times as opposed to sexual relations between members of the same sex, which is mentioned (I'm sure you'll correct my numbers here) less than 10 times. Now really, what seems to be more important here?
By the way, I can't reference where I heard that 2000 times thing, but I can list the many refereces I know of where the Bible talks about helping the poor, including the prophecies of many guys in the Old Testament, Amos and the like, and then of course the teachings of Jesus, such as that passage about those helping the least of these getting into the kingdom of Heaven, etc.
So I guess what I'm saying is, why don't we look at what seems to really matters in the Bible instead of condemning people for what increasingly seems to be beyond an individual's control. Even if homosexuality is a choice and is a sin, then what good is this method of turning them from their sins? You "come on here with a positive attitude trying to help the homosexuals and tell them to repent or they will end up in hell"? Do you really think that telling them they are going to Hell is exhibiting a positive attitude?
Why don't we follow the example of Jesus, the liberal that he was, who ignored the socially accepted norms and dined with the tax collectors, the popular sinners of his time? His message was of love, not of condemnation.
That's all for me. And let me just say, Hopeful Heart has a beautiful heart. I know you've labeled him a "fundyphobe" but from what he has written and from my personal experiences with him, he is nothing of the sort, and he is truly a man walking with the Lord.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on Apr 2, 2006 3:15:44 GMT -5
Well, yes you sort of did offend me a little. I mean I was looking kind of forward at first to meeting at least one homosexual who was not a FUNDYPHOBE (that is like a homophobe only they are afraid of fundies-that is a fundamentalist Christian). But then you threw out that...that...that...that word...Oh it is so horrible I almost can't bear to think of it...you insinuated...no you assumed....no...you...you judged that some people on this board may be....HOMOPHOBIC!!!!!!!
My honest opinion about this is that it seems that you're the only one to blame for the offense. My comment about homophobia was in general. I meant to throw it in there with the first post, but forgot, and decided it was important enough to include later. I apologize if the message seemed targeted at Josh - I never saw his post until after I had posted mine.
As far as assuming that some people on this board may be homophobic, you are incorrect. It's a fact that less-than-perfect people are everyone... I mean, everywhere. This board is no exception.
“There are more scriptural reasons to oppose homophobia than to oppose homosexuality.” --John B. Cobb
*smiles* And I have no fear of fundamentalist Christians. I respect your viewpoints. Viewpoints are like noses - everyone has one, everyone's is different, sometimes they run in the family, and no one can tell you that you don't have the right to your nose. Unlike noses, however (plastic surgery excluded), viewpoints are meant to be contested, challenged, grown, etc. I consider myself very conservative in many ways and liberal in others - I refuse to subscribe to one broad set of opinions ^_-
I don't consider myself a 'fundy-phobe', and once again you've assumed I'm homosexual. I Do hope that you aren't basing yourself on assumptions. Rest well, micah. I look forward to your renewed vigor tomorrow.
If I killed your mom, but never did it again, 10 years pass and since then I've been giving to charities and living a pretty normal life. Would you say I'm a good person? Good enough to go to heaven? Would you like to see me there with you? Or if you saw me at Starbucks, would you buy me a coffee and chat with me? Of course not, I'd probably make you sick because I hadn't paid the fine for my crime. Man knows that justice must be served, and I killed only once but would deserve to pay the fine, penalty of life in prison.
If you killed my mom, the ideal would be to forgive you. To err is human, to forgive divine. As Alison stated, let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I respect your belief in the Law and in Judgment. However, out of curiosity, would you play a hypothetical situation with me? What if, hypothetically speaking, you're going to hell. There's no degree of it, no possibility of it ending, you are definitely 100% going to hell. Would you still do good? Knowing that your fate is pain and torment?
The reason I ask is just to introduce you to my beliefs, if I may. I see heaven and hell as concepts, at the least. They're Completely irrelevant. You've told turkey to repent to save his soul - you've asked him to do the right thing for the wrong reason, as I said in my first post. You've encouraged him to sin, to do something for the gain of himself.
I encourage you to assume that you're going to hell. In fact, not just you, but everyone and everything you know and love. Assume that hell is the end result. If you truly believe that in the core of your soul, can accept it, and still do good, then you're undeniably a good man.
“Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.” --Albert Einstein
The two specific quotes I used were gifts from a good friend, the one who also directed me to this site. And to Alison, thank you for your support *big heart*
This forum is very interesting. I look forward to spending quite a bit of time here openly discussing these issues with you all. Thank you very much for this opportunity - I constantly seek to challenge my beliefs and standpoints. I wish you the best of luck in shattering my world view ^_^
|
|