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Post by mahatma on Jan 5, 2007 14:15:27 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me, but I think any God I would ever believe in would approve more of the person who tried hard to learn, explore, grow, and understand...even if that person came to some conclusions which were not 100% correct...than he would of the person who sat secure in everything who didn't try to discover more truth.
The whole Arminian/Calvinism debate seems to be a complete sidebar to whether a person is actually saved anyway. It seems like the Arminian says "I know I am saved now, and as long as I continue to follow God I will go to heaven when I die" and the Calvinist says "If I continue following God till I die, and if after I die I arrive in Heaven, then I will know that I was saved." Since both people are following God, do the metaphysical semantics really matter so much?
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 14:18:58 GMT -5
Mahatma you sound like you could be moving in the right direction Great post!
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Post by mahatma on Jan 5, 2007 14:19:29 GMT -5
lol don't get your hopes up too much
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 14:22:16 GMT -5
Good post rhemaseeker. You have a correct view of the Gospel of Jesus. There is no eternal security. That is nothing but a changing of the grace of God into a license for immorality gospel.
To the others, Tyler and Dan, I forgive both of you in the name of Jesus. Your comments attacking me are only par for Calvinist's.
BT your shortsighted observations I'm accustomed to. This is par for the course for you. Instead of answering, you blur and cloud and then have the nerve to say that it is clear. You fail to even see the contradiction wherein lays the lie. Whether you want to acknowledge this or not, doesn't matter to me anymore. But, this thread is ABOUT YOU and not me, but you are making every effort to slander me and get the focus off you and your actions. This is also par.
You and your loose words of accusation and slander will be held in account against you. I would tell you to repent but you sling that word around as if you understand it and so I will simply instead just let you go your way. It is very apparent that the both of you are bent on being the way you are, not understanding God's Word rather going the way of Calvin's philosophy and so I wash my hands of both you.
May God have mercy on your souls, which in the state of believing the lie of OSAS/Eternal Security/Perseverance of the Saints that you are in won't be possible. I pray that God will grant both of you repentance of this wickedness, open your eyes so that you will chose the Truth of God's word, in that it is possible to become spiritually dead in sin after initial salvation, so that you'll then come to the only Gospel of Jesus and so be saved. Read the New Testament and OBEY it. ALL of it.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 14:31:41 GMT -5
Darc, if it's not possible for God to have mercy on us while believing in a "false doctrine", then how did you ever get saved in the first place?
You certainly believed false doctrines before you say you were saved.
It's just all about you, isn't it? Your gospel has no good news. It's all about what you must do, and not about what Christ has done for His elect, His sheep. In your gospel, it is truly possible for a man to ultimately frustrate and defeat the purposes of God.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jan 5, 2007 14:42:00 GMT -5
Romans 11:17-24, "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 14:49:27 GMT -5
Romans 11:17-24, "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" Good quote. I have to disagree with the meaning you get from this text, though. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation [that includes yourself], will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The part in Romans 11 can be confusing. There is a lot more to it than just that, though. Romans 11:22
Does this passage imply that genuine believers can lose their salvation? Three things may be said.
(1) It may be that Paul is echoing a theme found elsewhere in his letters and throughout the NT, namely, that ultimate salvation is dependent on perseverance in faith (cf. Rom. 8:13; Col. 1:23; Heb. 3:6,14; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:19), a faith which God graciously preserves and sustains within us.
(2) Others have suggested that Paul's discussion here is about Gentiles as a class, considered collectively, and Israel as a class, considered collectively. In other words, just as "Israel" was cut off, so also "Gentiles" may be if they do not believe. [Speaking for myself, I don't find view (2) persuasive.]
(3) Moo has another explanation: "While the olive tree represents the true, spiritual people of God, those who are said to belong to this tree are not only those who, through their faith, are actually part of the tree but also those who only appear to belong to that tree. This is evident from the fact that Paul speaks of unbelieving Jews as having been 'cut off' from the tree (v. 17). In reality, these Jews had never been part of the tree at all; yet to preserve the metaphor he is using, Paul presents them as if they had been. In the same way, then, those Gentiles within the church at Rome – and elsewhere – who appear to be part of God's people, yet do not continue in faith, may never have been part of that tree at all" (707).
Views (1) and (3) may then be combined: Those who have truly believed will continue in God's kindness (Heb. 3:6,14). Those who do not continue in God's kindness show thereby that they were never truly part of the tree (on this, see esp. 1 John 2:19). Failure to persevere does not mean that one who was truly saved becomes truly lost. Rather, perseverance is itself the proof that one was truly saved. If one does not persevere, one has always been lost and never saved. www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article.asp?id=555www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/perseverance.html
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 14:52:10 GMT -5
Alan, First a statement. There is ONLY ONE Gospel message. You have to start there. The question is what did Jesus, Himself, preach and teach?
If the one preaching the Gospel message is wrong in their theology and therefore carry a wrong doctrine then it will be a wrong Gospel being presented which won't save any, because it would be a different Jesus/God.
Your question is like asking; if a doctor had just any ole vacsine could he cure all that he injected? The answer is NO. Maybe this isn't the best example but you get the idea. First of all, it has to be the ONLY Gospel message that Jesus and the Apostles preached or else it won't save, period.
Think about this as an example of a wrong Gospel being preached. How many preachers, for example, DON'T preach repentance, instead telling folks to 'come to Jesus as you are and "accept Jesus" by praying this little prayer'? Can someone get saved hearing that message? The answer is NO. It's a wrong gospel.
So to answer you I would say no. It first has to be the right Gospel that's being presented or you'd have the wrong vacsine, and it wouldn't save anyone. It couldn't.
But in light of Eternal Security vs Conditional Security gospels I would say the same. It has to be the correct Gospel being preached and being heard to bring salvation. This doesn't have anything to do with man either. God spoke one truth and it is that single truth that needs to go out. It's as narrow of a statement as Jesus' statement when He said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." There aren't many ways, just ONE. And so it is with the Gospel, there is only ONE that brings salvation.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 14:54:29 GMT -5
Darc said: The question is what did Jesus, Himself, preach and teach?
Response: He certain;y didn't teach your works-based message; I can guarantee you that.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 14:55:36 GMT -5
Admit it darc(ness), you're not an Arminian; you're a Pelagian
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 15:04:25 GMT -5
same old dan
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 15:18:27 GMT -5
Same old darc
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 15:49:20 GMT -5
So between lets say BT & Txbi and Darc there are these 2 different doctrines/theologys. Upon what are they based. The gospels only or all of the new testament? Please don't write some long dissertation
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 16:07:13 GMT -5
Alan, read darc(ness)'s words to TBXI....you'll then see that darc isn;t interested in any view but his own.(I myself disagree with TBXI and you on OSAS yet I'm not going to say you're following a false Gospel and state over and over again that you're deluded and teach a license to sin).
The issue is not a difference of doctrine with darc; the issue is that you and TBXI and all OSAS adherents are on his doctrinal "hit list"
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 16:13:02 GMT -5
Dear Dan ;D What about my question
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 17:34:16 GMT -5
So between lets say BT & Txbi and Darc there are these 2 different doctrines/theologys. Upon what are they based. The gospels only or all of the new testament? Please don't write some long dissertation Alan, Based on my last post....the Gospel I preach and my doctrine is based on the entire Bible.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 17:41:31 GMT -5
Well Alan, I'd love to answer, but I have a feeling darc will take WHATEVER I write and twist it, so I'll leave this one alone
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 17:47:18 GMT -5
BT, just answer the question. ok? Alan is looking for answers not dramatics. Go ahead. This isn't my thread and this isn't my current question so have at it. It's never stopped you before.
BTW. I don't twist. I simply use the Truth as it is written in God's Word and expose half truths and deceptions and/or bad doctrines.
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 17:55:37 GMT -5
Darc and BT Jesus said in Mark16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
Is this a true statement?
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 18:48:02 GMT -5
Darc and BT Jesus said in Mark16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemnedIs this a true statement? Alan, Paul the Apostle said these words: "1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. " Would it be a true statement that Paul made a clear distinction between salvation and Water baptism?
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 18:48:38 GMT -5
Thanks darc!
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 18:52:33 GMT -5
So both scriptures are true then.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 18:55:09 GMT -5
Amen and Amen! The INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures might not always be true, however... I mean, the Salvation Army does not practice water baptism and yet I'm convinced that the Salvation Army is Biblical in it's Gospel Message.
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 18:57:15 GMT -5
BT or Darc or anyone what was the thief on the cross' doctrine?
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 18:59:48 GMT -5
Jesus had died before the thief dies.... hence, if water baptsim was essential to heaven, he would NOT have gone, because once the Blood was shed, the New Covenant began.
The thief was not under the Old Law.
Christ had already shed His Blood.
The thief repented and confessed Christ as Lord and was saaved by the Blood.
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 19:01:36 GMT -5
So the thief din't have a "right" theology did he? Nor did Stephen or Paul or Peter etc...
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 19:07:58 GMT -5
I don't believe theology gets one into Heaven; Jesus is the One who gets you into Heaven. (by theology I mean anything EXCEPT the basic Message of the Gospel 1 Corinthians 15)
Jesus + Nothing = Salvation
Or
1Cross + 3Nails = 4Given
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 19:09:17 GMT -5
If theology doesn't get anyone into heaven (and I agree) why do some here say it does?
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 19:27:23 GMT -5
If theology doesn't get anyone into heaven (and I agree) why do some here say it does? Dunno I've always believed Jesus was the One and Only One who could get a lost sinner into Glory. "What Can Wash Away My Sin?...NOTHING But The Blood Of Jesus!"
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 20:55:22 GMT -5
I agree with most of what BT has said, however, Jesus and the Apostles taught faith in Him plus obedience unto good works. Faith without works is dead. It is a continuing faith in Jesus, one that produces good works, Eph 2:8-10:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
So if we are not doing good works for the Lord then we are doing works of the devil. You can't serve them both and you are known by your works. Jesus said "if you love me you will obey my commands." It's a submitted faith in Jesus, serving Him completely. Amen.
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