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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 9, 2007 21:34:47 GMT -5
Darc: Have you read what I posted from Grudem and Storms? Please let me know. We are both working here to find out what the truth is, and I am not even sure if you have read all that I've posted before continuing. There seems to be a double standard in operation on your end, in that you quickly jump to take Jonah 3:10 literally from a human point of view while you disregard my use of Numbers 23:19 and try to localize the impact of that verse - same with Mal. 3:6 and 1 Sam. 15:29. On the other hand I have tried to bring them both into one sound understanding. I do not see how you can so quickly discard my whole argument if you have actually read and understood what I posted. If God's emotions were to change in the same way as a human's, then that means you could change God's emotions whenever you wanted to by doing evil/sinful things. Do you think you have the power to do this? Are God's moods at your whim, in your control? How is He still sovereign if this is true? Or do you have to change the definition of sovereign? This is the rational conclusion that must be drawn if what you are saying is correct, and it eats away at the doctrine of divine sovereignty (which you claim to believe) and eternality (which I don't know if you acknowledge). We have to keep in mind that God is eternal and timeless, yet from a linear human perspective, it seems that God is "changing his mind" or "repenting." However, from God's perspective, any change for Him would be either for the better or for the worse. If He were to change for the better, then that would mean God had to improve at some point. If he were to change for the worse, that would mean that God was unable to sustain Himself in His own perfection. The overly humanistic and literal interpretation of Jonah 3:10 damages these doctrines and makes God into an imperfect, temporal being. What do the scriptures literally say that I last posted? God changed His mind and His actions Tyler. You cannot avoid that even though you try.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 9, 2007 22:08:20 GMT -5
Tyler you can throw at me what this man said and what a pastor of your's said and so on. You can throw out there that it's by my view that I'm seeing things and say all this and that, BUT, the reality is that it is not me that you are disagreeing with rather it is God's Word.
The fact is that all the verses you have built up in no way "contradict" the absolute truth that God changes His mind and actions due to man's action, according to the Scriptures.
You want nothing more than to believe your shaky, man's philosophy of Eternal Security/OSAS/Perseverance of the Saints but every time you get slapped in the face with God's truth showing that none of the 5 points stand up under scrutiny of God's Word you want to run. That doesn't surprise me because I have been here with you before.
I have NOTHING to prove to you Tyler. God's Word is so clear that it needs no "analyzing it", in the manner you do (by man's understanding rather than by the Holy Spirit's guidance). This however seems to be some favor past time of your's and those you listen to. All the while you're doing this "analyzing" though the absolute plain truth is screaming at the top of it's lungs at you but you can't see it nor will you hear it due to your wanting desperately for His Word to bend into your license for immorality gospel as you try and find ways to justify yourself sitting wallowing in your sin thinking you're on your way to heaven.
I really have no more use to continue with you Tyler. I am absolutely fed up with your refusal to acknowledge God's truth, instead of man's perceptions or philosophies, when IT is presented to you. You are unable to SEE any truth. I know these are hard words I've spoken to you, but it's time you are shown this is not some sort of game.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 9, 2007 22:12:36 GMT -5
Yeah, that's it.
Fine with me, I need to post less anyway. This is becoming a futile waste of time. It's kind of funny while sad at the same time that you think it is sooooo obvious that you can just whip out your theology in two seconds, ignore everything I'm saying and tell me that it's the Bible my problem is with. Figuring these more difficult points out is more complicated than you are trying to make it.
Aside from that there is nothing to say that I haven't already said. I am confident that anybody who actually reads this whole thread will, at the very least, realize that it is not as simple as looking at Jonah 3 and deciding that God's not immutable based on that text alone.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 9, 2007 22:28:23 GMT -5
Fine with me, I need to post less anyway. This is becoming a futile waste of time. It's kind of funny while sad at the same time that you think it is sooooo obvious that you can just whip out your theology in two seconds, ignore everything I'm saying and tell me that it's the Bible my problem is with. Figuring these more difficult points out is more complicated than you are trying to make it. Aside from that there is nothing to say that I haven't already said. I am confident that anybody who actually reads this whole thread will, at the very least, realize that it is not as simple as looking at Jonah 3 and deciding that God's not immutable based on that text alone. But it's NOT that difficult Tyler. Only, Calvinism and those who follow it make it that difficult. The Word is very plain to understand, in It's correct form of a Believer's Conditional Security, free will, etc., etc.. And it's not just one verse (Jonah 3) that destroys the wicked idea, that God doesn't change His mind, as I've already shown. In fact the entire Bible shows this Truth, that he does and can and will.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 9, 2007 22:36:59 GMT -5
Poisoning the well... this assertion is often made but never supported.
Then it should be cake for you to tell me how Prov. 16:4, 9, 33, 21:1 fit up with free will.
Have at it.
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Post by brianbomar on Jan 10, 2007 2:56:17 GMT -5
I am amazed this thread is still going....
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 10, 2007 7:53:52 GMT -5
New Thread Title:
Darc vs TBXI ;D
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Post by tonyholland on Jan 10, 2007 9:30:39 GMT -5
I am confident that anybody who actually reads this whole thread will, at the very least, realize that it is not as simple as looking at Jonah 3 and deciding that God's not immutable based on that text alone. I would agree with this also. It's pretty dangerous to take just one or two scripture points and trying to create a theology on that. I do think that Jonah 3 is very clear that God changed His mind regarding the people of Ninevah though. Does that create a conflict with Calvanistic beliefs. or do you think I am reading it correctly? I'm not trying to stir the debate, this is just something that is new information to me and I am trying to understand it. It seems clear.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 10, 2007 18:46:54 GMT -5
That's right Tony.
God saw their wickedness. God threatened them with destruction. They repented and obeyed Him in His warning. He saw this. He turned away from His anger and threat, choosing not to do what He said he would.
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