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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 21:10:35 GMT -5
Darc, you've just openly taught heresy.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 21:12:13 GMT -5
Darc Said: So if we are not doing good works for the Lord then we are doing works of the devil...
Response: Alan and I were speaking, NOT concerning Discipleship, but SALVATION.
You teach salvation by works?
Or do you want to retract your statement?
Works DO NOT give you Salvation.
Some things can be overlooked; Salvation and the Gospel CANNOT be overlooked.
I'm a Fundamentalist when it comes to these issues, and to go ahead and teach a works-based Salvation is not only false, but it CUTS YOU OUT OF SALVATION altogether.
If you're saying a sinner must perform good works IN ORDER to be saved, then Scripture calls you accursed and lost.
If, however, you meant taht a DISCIPLE (one who is ALREADY saved) must persevere in good works, I can fly with that.
So which is it?
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 21:15:31 GMT -5
Jesus and the Apostles taught faith in Him plus obedience unto good works. Wow. So faith + works = salvation, then? How ironic, as well, that Eph. 2:10, which you posted, conveys the idea of predestination.
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Post by alan4jc on Jan 5, 2007 21:15:34 GMT -5
Darc said: So if we are not doing good works for the Lord then we are doing works of the devil Chapter and verse please brother
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:27:55 GMT -5
All I will say about the thief on the cross is that his faith and repentance would've had to have been right because there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPROMISE in Jesus. So yes, a correct theology would've had to be in tact. In other words, Jesus preached repentance and belief in Him plus continued obedience to Him as His message. So the thief would have had to meet that standard in order to hear what he had heard from Jesus that day. Just because we don't hear that he repented doesn't mean that he didn't meet that condition in his heart/mind. He did. He would have to because Jesus would not compromise His Father's truth and expectation would He? So to say that thief came to God under different terms then we do would not be correct. Jesus would not lower His standard for anyone, regardless.
Remember what James said in 2:19...
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
Jesus also said in Mt 7:21... "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
I like how the NIV puts the end of this verse... "but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
I believe that a correct understanding of who God is and what His expectations are for our salvation, is crucial in getting the right Gospel message not only preached but then accepted.
I mean it is so crucial that Paul said if another man or even an angel preached another gospel that they should be eternally damned. That's how crucial it is. And so if one can be damned for preaching a wrong gospel then it also stands to be that a person can be damned for believing a wrong gospel. Look at the Catholics theology for example.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:30:53 GMT -5
Darc Said: So if we are not doing good works for the Lord then we are doing works of the devil... Response: Alan and I were speaking, NOT concerning Discipleship, but SALVATION. You teach salvation by works? Or do you want to retract your statement? Works DO NOT give you Salvation. Some things can be overlooked; Salvation and the Gospel CANNOT be overlooked. I'm a Fundamentalist when it comes to these issues, and to go ahead and teach a works-based Salvation is not only false, but it CUTS YOU OUT OF SALVATION altogether. If you're saying a sinner must perform good works IN ORDER to be saved, then Scripture calls you accursed and lost. If, however, you meant taht a DISCIPLE (one who is ALREADY saved) must persevere in good works, I can fly with that. So which is it? No Dan I do not teach "salvation by works" it's simply called obedience after a submitted faith in Jesus. That is not suggestion it is expected and commanded. Not works but obedience.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:31:44 GMT -5
Jesus and the Apostles taught faith in Him plus obedience unto good works. Wow. So faith + works = salvation, then? How ironic, as well, that Eph. 2:10, which you posted, conveys the idea of predestination. shush
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 21:31:58 GMT -5
Darc, your soteriology IS the Catholic soteriology. They split sins into mortal and venial, they believe the Semi-Pelagian heresy of "salvation = faith + works", and so on. You just don't have the sacraments or the mariolatry but you've pretty much got everything else.
Paul taught that we are justified by faith, and not by our works, nor by works + faith. It is a true faith, which is a sovereign and free gift of God, which saves.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:33:32 GMT -5
Darc said: So if we are not doing good works for the Lord then we are doing works of the devil Chapter and verse please brother Matthew 6:24
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:35:36 GMT -5
Darc, your soteriology IS the Catholic soteriology. They split sins into mortal and venial, they believe the Semi-Pelagian heresy of "salvation = faith + works", and so on. You just don't have the sacraments or the mariolatry but you've pretty much got everything else. Paul taught that we are justified by faith, and not by our works, nor by works + faith. It is a true faith, which is a sovereign and free gift of God, which saves. You must re-read James and what Jesus taught. I reject your statement outright.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 21:42:17 GMT -5
Romans 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! Paul teaches here that Abraham was justified by faith. Not his works. You are never justified by your works. If you believe this is what it's talking about in James 2:24, then you've got a contradiction to deal with. When James says we are "justified by works," he is merely opposing easy-believism. Paul, on the other hand, opposed works-righteousness which is what you and Dan Corner are preaching. God had declared Abraham righteous 22 years before this so-called "justification" took place. He was "proven righteous" by his works and his faith was perfected by the sacrifice of his son, Isaac.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:42:30 GMT -5
Darc, your soteriology IS the Catholic soteriology. They split sins into mortal and venial, they believe the Semi-Pelagian heresy of "salvation = faith + works", and so on. You just don't have the sacraments or the mariolatry but you've pretty much got everything else. Paul taught that we are justified by faith, and not by our works, nor by works + faith. It is a true faith, which is a sovereign and free gift of God, which saves. You must re-read James and what Jesus taught. I reject your statement outright about my soteriology being Catholic soteriology. That's nothing more than an ignorant statement, Tyler. They are who do a lot of my preaching and witnessing to because of their incorrect theology, damnable theology. So go bark up someone else's tree for a change OK?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 21:52:51 GMT -5
Romans 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! Paul teaches here that Abraham was justified by faith. Not his works. You are never justified by your works. If you believe this is what it's talking about in James 2:24, then you've got a contradiction to deal with. When James says we are "justified by works," he is merely opposing easy-believism. Paul, on the other hand, opposed works-righteousness which is what you and Dan Corner are preaching. God had declared Abraham righteous 22 years before this so-called "justification" took place. He was "proven righteous" by his works and his faith was perfected by the sacrifice of his son, Isaac. You're NOT listening to me. I DO NOT believe that works justifies me. STOP putting words in my mouth. Read what I say. I don't say or mean anything different than what The Word of God says. A faith without works, produced by faith, is a dead faith, a non-saving faith. You are simply trying to be divisive and are not reading what I'm posting. Instead you have it in your head that I believe this way when it's not the truth. I don't know how many times I've had to defend my faith by stating my salvation IS completed in Jesus and what he did and it's because of people like you two that want nothing more than to get the focus off the truth both Jesus and the Apostles clearly taught by throwing your arms up in the air screaming works! works! I do not believe in a work's salvation. PEROID
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 21:57:07 GMT -5
But you do believe that you keep your own salvation by what you do, right?
This is where I gathered that you believe faith + works = justification.
I am not trying to be divisive. I am just going off of what has been said here - and I will note that we might actually be on the same page (although I doubt it) on this, because the issue is such a subtle one that confusion can easily occur. I agree that a faith without works is a dead faith - I also agree, though, that Phil. 2:12-13 teaches that "it is God who works in us to will according to his good pleasure", and that Eph. 2:10 actually teaches that we are predestined unto our good works.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:06:28 GMT -5
But you do believe that you keep your own salvation by what you do, right? This is where I gathered that you believe faith + works = justification. I am not trying to be divisive. I am just going off of what has been said here - and I will note that we might actually be on the same page (although I doubt it) on this, because the issue is such a subtle one that confusion can easily occur. I agree that a faith without works is a dead faith - I also agree, though, that Phil. 2:12-13 teaches that "it is God who works in us to will according to his good pleasure", and that Eph. 2:10 actually teaches that we are predestined unto our good works. You have a skewed view of predestination, as if that wipes out all of our responsiblities after salvation that we are either commanded, exhorted or warned to do. Such as Heb. 3:14... "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."... ...among apx. a 1000 the same.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 22:08:54 GMT -5
...no, I don't believe predestination means we can be lazy. I just quoted Phil. 2:12-13, why would I have done that if it were the case? I just acknowledge that that is how God works, and that is how salvation works, and a proper understanding of predestination's impact on salvation is what puts the onus and reliance on God for our salvation rather than ourselves.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:09:05 GMT -5
But you do believe that you keep your own salvation by what you do, right? This is where I gathered that you believe faith + works = justification. I am not trying to be divisive. I am just going off of what has been said here - and I will note that we might actually be on the same page (although I doubt it) on this, because the issue is such a subtle one that confusion can easily occur. I agree that a faith without works is a dead faith - I also agree, though, that Phil. 2:12-13 teaches that "it is God who works in us to will according to his good pleasure", and that Eph. 2:10 actually teaches that we are predestined unto our good works. You have a skewed view of predestination, as if that wipes out all of our responsiblities after salvation that we are either commanded, exhorted or warned to do. Such as Heb. 3:14... "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."... ...among apx. a 1000 the same. Ponder this verse. What does it say to you?
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 22:10:41 GMT -5
It reinforces the same thing I already believe, which is that those with a true faith will persevere until the end.
On the other hand, I've asked you many times to ponder what Romans 8, 9, Ephesians 1, 2 Thess. 2:13, Proverbs 16:4,9, 21:1, and John 6 imply about the nature of Christian salvation, and to you, that's "blurring/confusing/diverting the subject".
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:12:13 GMT -5
...no, I don't believe predestination means we can be lazy. I just quoted Phil. 2:12-13, why would I have done that if it were the case? I just acknowledge that that is how God works, and that is how salvation works, and a proper understanding of predestination's impact on salvation is what puts the onus and reliance on God for our salvation rather than ourselves. Agreed. But what must you do after you initially get saved? God doesn't do your obedience for you Tyler. That's our responsibility, yes He gives us what's needed to do that but that is clearly our choice and our responsibility to follow Him this day.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 22:16:04 GMT -5
...no, I don't believe predestination means we can be lazy. I just quoted Phil. 2:12-13, why would I have done that if it were the case? I just acknowledge that that is how God works, and that is how salvation works, and a proper understanding of predestination's impact on salvation is what puts the onus and reliance on God for our salvation rather than ourselves. Agreed. But what must you do after you initially get saved? God doesn't do your obedience for you Tyler. That's our responsibility, yes He gives us what's needed to do that but that is clearly our choice and our responsibility to follow Him this day. And of course, it always boils down to our "free choice" - the house of cards that your whole theology relies on, despite the fact that is time and time again refuted by the Scriptures I've mentioned. Yet you say I'm changing the subject when I appeal to a lack of libertarian free will in order to decide other subjects such as eternal security.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:18:09 GMT -5
It reinforces the same thing I already believe, which is that those with a true faith will persevere until the end. On the other hand, I've asked you many times to ponder what Romans 8, 9, Ephesians 1, 2 Thess. 2:13, Proverbs 16:4,9, 21:1, and John 6 imply about the nature of Christian salvation, and to you, that's "blurring/confusing/diverting the subject". No, I won't go there with you, because you are viewing these verses through Calvin's lenses. And I won't do that to God's Word with you. Maybe someday Tyler but not today. Besides nothing in that realm would alter the reality that the 5th point doesn't stand up under the scrutiny of Scripture.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:19:41 GMT -5
Agreed. But what must you do after you initially get saved? God doesn't do your obedience for you Tyler. That's our responsibility, yes He gives us what's needed to do that but that is clearly our choice and our responsibility to follow Him this day. And of course, it always boils down to our "free choice" - the house of cards that your whole theology relies on, despite the fact that is time and time again refuted by the Scriptures I've mentioned. Yet you say I'm changing the subject when I appeal to a lack of libertarian free will in order to decide other subjects such as eternal security. My friend you haven't shown one shread of Biblical evidence to contradict free will. None.
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Post by biblethumper on Jan 5, 2007 22:38:09 GMT -5
Darc, when you preach the Gospel do you tell people they must 'work" to be saved OR do you tell them they must repent from their sin and place their Faith in Jesus Christ?
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 22:39:56 GMT -5
Again, Darc, it is a serious logical fallacy to assert that the positive is true if the negative cannot be disproven (even assuming that it can't - free will, in fact, can be and is disproven in the Bible). You brush off those verses because you say I'm viewing them through Calvin's lenses, yet you can't even seem to give me an interpretation of them that would fit into your doctrine. This is what systematic theology is all about. We have to look at all parts of the bible that speak to a certain subject and fit them all together. In your soteriology these are things which must be considered. Proverbs 16:4 says 4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Hence, the wicked are made by the Lord for the day of evil. Hence, those who are wicked were made that way for the day of evil, and their "free choice" had no say in the matter - unless you look at it from a compatibilist point of view and note that their "free" (from their perspective) will was predestined to be such that God's will would be done through it anyway. Proverbs 21:1 says, 1The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. How do you get free will from this? This is saying that the king's will is literally controlled by God.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:44:49 GMT -5
Darc, when you preach the Gospel do you tell people they must 'work" to be saved OR do you tell them they must repent from their sin and place their Faith in Jesus Christ? I tell them they must repent from their sin and place their Faith in Jesus Christ for salvation
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 5, 2007 22:58:37 GMT -5
Again, Darc, it is a serious logical fallacy to assert that the positive is true if the negative cannot be disproven (even assuming that it can't - free will, in fact, can be and is disproven in the Bible). You brush off those verses because you say I'm viewing them through Calvin's lenses, yet you can't even seem to give me an interpretation of them that would fit into your doctrine. This is what systematic theology is all about. We have to look at all parts of the bible that speak to a certain subject and fit them all together. In your soteriology these are things which must be considered. Proverbs 16:4 says 4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Hence, the wicked are made by the Lord for the day of evil. Hence, those who are wicked were made that way for the day of evil, and their "free choice" had no say in the matter - unless you look at it from a compatibilist point of view and note that their "free" (from their perspective) will was predestined to be such that God's will would be done through it anyway. Proverbs 21:1 says, 1The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. How do you get free will from this? This is saying that the king's will is literally controlled by God. By this then are you saying that man could not change God's mind? Are you saying that man's actions, whether sinful or righteous, are originated and also accomplished by God?
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jan 5, 2007 23:09:52 GMT -5
2 Chronicles 15, "...The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you." Matthew 10:22, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Luke 9:62, "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." 2 Timothy 2:12, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" 2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Matthew 24:12-13, "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." John 8:31, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" John 15:1-2, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Galatians 6:9, "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." 1 Timothy 6:12, "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."
If one comes to Christ, that person must repent from their old sinful life and have faith in Christ. Does not that give that person the right to repent from their new life and forsake Christ and rightousness? God is not a dictator where once one comes unto His kingdom must stay forever. Man has a choice. Freewill. Not all will choose to keep following Christ once conversion is made.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 5, 2007 23:17:58 GMT -5
Yes, because if we could, He wouldn't be unchanging and omnipotent.
They are predestined and ordained by God. This is not the same as accomplishing them, though. If the wicked are made for the day of evil (which they are) then they are still the wicked ones, not God. When did God make a rule saying that He couldn't do as he pleases with his creation? ... Actually he never did. On the contrary, that is exactly what He does. “The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.” (Psa 135:6)
Now, again, how can you possibly read Proverbs 16:4 and 21:1 to say that the will of man is autonomous?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jan 6, 2007 11:20:18 GMT -5
Yes, because if we could, He wouldn't be unchanging and omnipotent. I want you to read Exodus 32:7-14 and then let's talk. Here let me put it up here where everyone can see. There are many examples of exchanges like this between man and God in the Bible so how do you square that with your understanding of God? Because clearly God repented and changed His mind and actions due to what Moses (man) said. This passage even speaks of man's free will, too. If not then why would God have stopped His interaction with Moses on top of the mountain to say for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves? He then burned with anger. How could He burn with anger if He predestined and ordained those actions? He (GOD) clearly says "thy people...have corrupted themselves". How is this possible if they didn't have free choice? Exodus 32:7-14 (KJV) 7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Either God is a liar or your understanding/concept of God is not aligned with Scripture Tyler. Please define what you mean by: They (man's actions) are predestined and ordained by God.
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Post by tbxi on Jan 6, 2007 11:30:49 GMT -5
As for the anthropomorphisms of God in the Bible, see this thread: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1167415207This same discussion occurred between jackjackson and I. It got about as far as it could and then started to degenerate onto other things, but it is a useful thread. Pay attention to the piece I cited. Even if this was a true "changing of the mind" by God then you'd have a contradiction in your bible, Darc, because Mal. 3:6 says God does not change and Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" As for whether God predestines/ordains the evil acts of men, yes, he does. By this I mean that they are predestined to happen just as all things are. Prov. 16:4 makes it clear that the wicked are made to fulfill their purpose as wicked people, i.e. sin and then destruction. Prov. 21:1 makes it clear that the king's heart is ultimately in God's control although it may seem to be in his own from his own perspective. Ah - this is a big one. When I ran into this it blew me away. See 2 Chronicles 18. Note the way in which God acts to accomplish his will in this case. He actually caused men to prophesy falsely by sending them an evil spirit.
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