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Post by HSTN2983 on May 5, 2006 6:52:50 GMT -5
i am forbidden to post in the doctrine/theology forum, and i respect jesse's decision...although i think i have extensive biblical knowledge to offer. hehe. i read this and i think it deserved to be posted here, because i wanted to reply to it:Well, I did find this little gem. Perhaps you could respond to that? From "Created Equal: Why Gay Rights Matter to America" Nava and Dawidoff (1994) "[Gay men and lesbians] do not want to continue through life abused, bashed, and discriminated against in their own country. They do not want to labor under the vicious stereotypes that incite violence and justify denial of their civil rights. They do not want to have to struggle so hard to live their lives. Life is trouble enough without the distracting burden of defending yourself from fear and prejudice at every turn. So what do gays and lesbians want? What do we want? We want more than the absence of abuse. We want our rights as citizens; we want the chance to live our lives happily and morally' we want the chance to make our ways individually and as members of a loosely associated community without being taxed or pressed into service to support institutions and laws that oppress us." (Page 135) "Stated generally, what gays and lesbians want is not very different from what most Americans want: to live as little disturbed by government as possible but secure in the knowledge that social institutions will serve them equally and that laws affecting them will be enforced fairly....We are demanding our basic rights, rights that Americans are not supposed to be deprived of without due process of law and that are nevertheless denied to us, without due process, as a matter of routine." (Page 139) This is the gay agenda from two gay authors. Is there a better description of it? where is this description of a gay agenda?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 5, 2006 7:05:25 GMT -5
there is no gay agenda. however, there are extremists in every sector of human culture, and all we have to do is ignore people who think they deserve more than the average person. fortunately, i have yet to meet a homosexual that wanted to be more than equal?
what is this christian mindset that only white, believing americans are guaranteed rights. where in the constitution does it say anything of this nature? christians need to accept that america may have been founded on religious principles, but is a melting pot of ideas, religions and lifestyles. the christian extremism that i witness against homosexuality is something that has been rooted in history for hundreds of years. southern christians rejected the idea of africans being free and were labeled as less than human. christians, again, were the ones who rejected the idea to give women equal rights, and wanted to forbid them from working, voting, etc.
who else do you think rejected african and women's rights? no one, only christians. extreme christians, but christians nonetheless. this goes without saying... christians will persecute homosexuals because they read their bible literally and will not tolerate africans, women or homosexual 'agendas.' however, there have been improvements over the years and christians have come to accept that slavery will no longer be instituted and that women will always vote, so they have given up on that idea. however, they have found a 'new' right to reject...the right of an american to live the lifestyle and sexual orientation of his/her choice.
this is not a gay agenda, but a cry for equality. any christian who rejects equality is an enemy to civil rights, and america....
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Post by Morluna on May 13, 2006 2:39:22 GMT -5
"i have yet to meet a homosexual that wanted to be more than equal?"
Exactly. And I have never met a feminist that wants women to be more than equal to men, and yet to hear the fundamentalists talk, that's exactly what we all want. All the LGBTs want extra rights over the straights, and female feminists want to be held higher than men. That's bull. All we want is equality... how is that so hard to understand?
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Post by cervyy on May 15, 2006 23:25:28 GMT -5
I think we need to focus on the much more dangerous, "Christian agenda" which is much more sinister!!
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pacp
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 11:41:48 GMT -5
There is a gay agenda. They don't want to be just equal. They want to rule....with a kind of homo-fascism. Look at what happened to the Philly 4.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 12:23:47 GMT -5
There is a gay agenda. They don't want to be just equal. They want to rule....with a kind of homo-fascism. Look at what happened to the Philly 4. Homo-facism? Excuse me? What are you talking about? I'd much rather live in a homo-ocracy than in a theocracy, thank you very much. Maybe they'd make me Secretary of Boas. That has a nice ring to it, doesn't it.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 16, 2006 12:35:45 GMT -5
people are scared of everyone who is not like them these days. to hell with those people i say...
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pacp
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Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 12:46:36 GMT -5
Homo-fascism is real. Its either us or them. Do you want a world that honors a husband and a wife. Allows free speech. To name only two pillars of society.
Or do you want a world where you can't say anything against being "gay". And where children have to fathers, or two mommies?
The heart of Sodom is wicked and they will impose their will on society.
What about the Philly 4?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 16, 2006 12:50:26 GMT -5
homophobia is real. you are living proof.
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Post by cervyy on May 16, 2006 12:56:15 GMT -5
PACP
First, what the heck is Philly 4?
Second, yer crazy and a recommend a "gay"-jacket, STAT!
Third, I say that yer crazy because, I have gay friends and I have never heard of this homo-fascism. Duh, there are gonna be gays who would prolly like to be in charge of everything, but there's people from every ethnicity, every religion, every WALK OF LIFE wanting the same thing who do not represent the rest of them.
Why is it bad if gays don't want bad things said about them? Y'all b*tch when we say something about you and you claim it isn't true. Same thing.
Again, YER crazy.
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pacp
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Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 13:16:59 GMT -5
Ya, I'm crazy I know....thanks The point went right over your head. Point number one..the Philly four were a bunch of Christians who went to a public gay event and were arrested for hate crimes for carrying Bible verses. Check out www.repentamerica.comSecondly, in the Christian world order. Gays have rights. Although there is a stigma on their "death style". For a reason...its harmful. To their families and to they themselves. If they had their way...it would be the Christians who would be dissidents. And th effects of their death style would be very wide spread. Don't you think it right and healthy to tell people that homosexuality is sin and that Jesus can set them free.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 13:20:05 GMT -5
Homo-fascism is real. Its either us or them. Do you want a world that honors a husband and a wife. Yes, I do. I also want a society that honors a husband and a husband or a woman and a woman. I want a society where I can walk down the street holding hands with my boyfriend right behind a male-female couple holding hands and have no worries of being attacked. Yes, I also want a society where speech is free. A society where gays are no longer forced by prejudice and bigorty to hide in the closet. I want a world where we have freedom of expression without being attacked or subverted by the over-bearing majority. I want a world where people have the freedom to say whatever they want/need to say. I don't want a world where people can't say that being gay is wrong, nor do I want a world where people can't say that being Christian is wrong. And yes, I do want a world where children can have two fathers or two mothers. I also want a world where children can have a mother and a father. Yes, the heart of Sodom was wicked, but I must remind you to read Ezekiel. I think that the Bible is pretty clear on this. If you will please turn to chapter 16. *Waits while readers TURN TO EZEKIEL CHAPTER 16* For context, we begin with 16:1 "The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices 3 and say, 'this is what the Sovereign LORD says to Jerusalem:..." Now, let's skip ahead a couple of verses (I can wait if you'd like to read all the way however) 16:46: "Your older sister was Samaira, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was called Sodom. 47You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. 49Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." This appraisal by one of Israel's prophets seems to re-enforce the true calling of God: to love (see my earlier post on love). Sodom did not have compassion. She did not give hospitality to the guests of Lot. Indeed, even if you still think that Sodom was destroyed by God because of homosexuality, the Bible does not uphold it as worse than other sins. You see, later on in chapter 16 (see verse 52):..."Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous."
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Post by cervyy on May 16, 2006 13:22:53 GMT -5
Okay, first thanks for the info the 4.
It's not harmful to familes, in fact having more familes, well more orphans could be adopted! Sounds swell to me. If it's bad because it's more liekly to result in death ... ya, but we all die anywho.
Wrong, again, that's a complete generalize about the desires of one group of people. We're human, we'll all NEVER be able to agree on one thing.
And I don't see how it's right and healthy telling others how to live, especially a lie. All they need to be free from is prejudice and bigotry. Which is why I'm here talking to YOU instead of out preaching to others.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 13:25:23 GMT -5
Ya, I'm crazy I know....thanks Secondly, in the Christian world order. Gays have rights. Although there is a stigma on their "death style". For a reason...its harmful. To their families and to they themselves. Yes, it can be, but it is not necessarily. I many gay friends. One of my friends has had at least 200 sexual partners (he's 19). My boyfriend has had 3. I know several gays who have had no sexual partners, whatsoever. Heterosexuals can live dangerously too. No. Gays don't want anyone to be supressed, we only want equality of rights. Gays also do not want to spread homosexuality to anyone who isn't homosexual. We all know what it is like to live life like someone of the opposite orientation, and most of us would never dream of forcing that on anyone else. No, I don't think it is right, and I'm not sure what correlation it has to health.
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pacp
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 13:33:41 GMT -5
.the Bible does not uphold it as worse than other sins. [/quote]
Ok, these are your words above. Why, if the Bible declares homosexuality sin, would you want to see gay's walking down the street holding hands?
I believe Romans speaks of the org ion of, or reason for homosexuality.
Thirdly, the Philly 4 Christians we holding Bible signs. So they were arrested under anti-speech laws that are, under homo-fascist legislators designed to silence Christians. In our order (Christian) there is no open threat to gays. But it is perceived to be sin.
Homo-fascism attempts to change that belief or thoughts.
Its being used by satan to silence the Church. How would one witness to a gay person in this new world?How could someone declare homosexuality to be sin. I've been called crazy and hateful on this very board. I have no hate for gays. I want to see them set free from a life style that will eventually kill then and dam their sole.
Lastly, much of what you said in the Christian world is allowed.
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Post by cervyy on May 16, 2006 13:40:04 GMT -5
Where in the original manuscripts does it say HOMOSEXUAL? Or an even better question, where are said original manusrcipts?
Homo-facism is the leats of our worries, similarly, who I fear is trying to ruin this country (and using relgion as their sword) are conservative Christian groups! They're trying to take more rights away then any group/movement you can make up!
This country was built on the beliefs of having rights, so why do people keep trying to take them away?
If you don't hate gays, then help them get the right to marry!!
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 13:45:06 GMT -5
Start witnessing, or have you not been reading my other recent posts?
I gaurantee you that those "homo-facist" laws were not enacted by gays. Very few cities or states (if any) have a legislative bodies made up of enough gays to be a majority. Therefore your laws were passed by breeders like yourself.
I don't know about the Philadelphia 4, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't defend someone who was arrested by the jew-facist regime for carrying swastikas around, eh? What about the afro-facist-oligarchy which tries to ban the Klan from doing cross burning and generally terrorizing people?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 13:48:29 GMT -5
There you have it. My words, in context. I don't believe in sin, original or otherwise. I was making a contextual argument in which I said that IF you think it was destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality, THEN verse 52 nulifies that argument. I don't fit that IF...THEN statement, but I imagine that you do.
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Post by Morluna on May 16, 2006 14:48:17 GMT -5
AMEN.
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pacp
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Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 16:02:20 GMT -5
Start witnessing, or have you not been reading my other recent posts? I guarantee you that those "homo-fascist" laws were not enacted by gays. Very few cities or states (if any) have a legislative bodies made up of enough gays to be a majority. Therefore your laws were passed by breeders like yourself. I don't know about the Philadelphia 4, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't defend someone who was arrested by the jew-facist regime for carrying swastikas around, eh? What about the afro-facist-oligarchy which tries to ban the Klan from doing cross burning and generally terrorizing people? Really, You don't understand....homo-facist laws are made by useful idiots who cave into political correctness. Local, state and federal governments. Where would I begin. 1) College civility codes that keep street preachers off their campus 2) local government free speech zones 2) state and federal hate crime laws I could go on and on. I haven't read your other posts. It appears to me that you don't really believe the Bible. How could you not have heard of the Phillie 4??
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 17:00:22 GMT -5
Start witnessing, or have you not been reading my other recent posts? I guarantee you that those "homo-fascist" laws were not enacted by gays. Very few cities or states (if any) have a legislative bodies made up of enough gays to be a majority. Therefore your laws were passed by breeders like yourself. I don't know about the Philadelphia 4, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't defend someone who was arrested by the jew-facist regime for carrying swastikas around, eh? What about the afro-facist-oligarchy which tries to ban the Klan from doing cross burning and generally terrorizing people? Really, You don't understand....homo-facist laws are made by useful idiots who cave into political correctness. Local, state and federal governments. Where would I begin. 1) College civility codes that keep street preachers off their campus 2) local government free speech zones 2) state and federal hate crime laws I could go on and on. You never addressed my questions regarding neo-nazis and the kkk. I see nothing wrong with protecting the innocent victims of hate crimes, and I'm appalled that you do. There is a difference between caving in to political correctness and keeping the peace and protecting rights. I was actually referring to my more recent posts in which I talk about my boyfriend. Amazing intellect there! Congratulations. You have actually struck the nail on the head, probably for the first time in your life. I'm sorry, would I have heard about them if I'd read Revalation with a ouija board?
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pacp
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Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 17:15:48 GMT -5
Really, You don't understand....homo-facist laws are made by useful idiots who cave into political correctness. Local, state and federal governments. Where would I begin. 1) College civility codes that keep street preachers off their campus 2) local government free speech zones 2) state and federal hate crime laws I could go on and on. You never addressed my questions regarding neo-nazis and the kkk. I see nothing wrong with protecting the innocent victims of hate crimes, and I'm appalled that you do. There is a difference between caving in to political correctness and keeping the peace and protecting rights. I was actually referring to my more recent posts in which I talk about my boyfriend. Amazing intellect there! Congratulations. You have actually struck the nail on the head, probably for the first time in your life. I know this is hard for you to understand, so put the weed down and step away from the computer. I truly care about you in Christian love. We have much to talk about. I believe the current laws are ok..without adding hate laws, where the police decide your motaive. I must run now...supper is waiting. -Peace I'm sorry, would I have heard about them if I'd read Revalation with a ouija board?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 17:31:43 GMT -5
You never addressed my questions regarding neo-nazis and the kkk. I see nothing wrong with protecting the innocent victims of hate crimes, and I'm appalled that you do. There is a difference between caving in to political correctness and keeping the peace and protecting rights. I was actually referring to my more recent posts in which I talk about my boyfriend. Amazing intellect there! Congratulations. You have actually struck the nail on the head, probably for the first time in your life. I know this is hard for you to understand, so put the weed down and step away from the computer. I truly care about you in Christian love. We have much to talk about. I believe the current laws are ok..without adding hate laws, where the police decide your motaive. I must run now...supper is waiting. -Peace You'll be happy to know, I'm sure because of your Christian love, that I have never done weed, nor do I ever intend to do so. Just because I am not a self-identifying Christian does not mean that I am immoral. I resent your baseless and inflamatory accusations of drug use. I think you are misinformed about the nature of hate crimes. Merely hating is not a crime under hate crime statutes. What hate crime statutes do is add additional punishments to existing crimes. This means that if you assault someone because of hate, you can have a harsher penalty for assault, not a new penalty. You might be interested to know that you are included in a group protected by hate crime statutes. The federal list includes any crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, disability, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals. What do you have against giving a neo-nazi five additional years in prison for assaulting a Jew? It should be noted that they probably wouldn't have assaulted said Jew absent their hate. I'm interested to hear your response, and alas, I too must go off to dinner. Cheers!
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pacp
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Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 17:45:01 GMT -5
I know this is hard for you to understand, so put the weed down and step away from the computer. I truly care about you in Christian love. We have much to talk about. I believe the current laws are ok..without adding hate laws, where the police decide your motive. I must run now...supper is waiting. -Peace You'll be happy to know, I'm sure because of your Christian love, that I have never done weed, nor do I ever intend to do so. Just because I am not a self-identifying Christian does not mean that I am immoral. I resent your baseless and inflamatory accusations of drug use. I think you are misinformed about the nature of hate crimes. Merely hating is not a crime under hate crime statutes. What hate crime statutes do is add additional punishments to existing crimes. This means that if you assault someone because of hate, you can have a harsher penalty for assault, not a new penalty. You might be interested to know that you are included in a group protected by hate crime statutes. The federal list includes any crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, disability, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals. What do you have against giving a neo-nazi five additional years in prison for assaulting a Jew? It should be noted that they probably wouldn't have assaulted said Jew absent their hate. I'm interested to hear your response, and alas, I too must go off to dinner. Cheers! Well puff..I'm back. But I won't be on long....I work you know. Ok...the weed thing was a joke..ha-ha. I have sneaking suspicion that you probably would support liberal drug related laws. Yes, you are imorral...thats what I've bee attempting to tell you. You are a sinner, and you will never be "good enough" to earn your way to heaven. And yes..there is a heaven. The reason I oppose hate laws. Is because the "police" "decide" if hate is involved. Plus our existing laws are adequate. Would you want a police officer deciding if hatred was involved in something you were a defendant in. I would not.
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Post by biblethumper on May 16, 2006 17:51:03 GMT -5
Homosexuals should be content at tody's lax-laws.... if these were Old Testmant times, you'd all be ...well, taken out of your little closets quite quickly without a ten point sermon on "Why homosexuality is wrong".... you'd be stoned on-site.
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Post by cervyy on May 16, 2006 19:48:08 GMT -5
People should be content with a lack of RIGHTS?!?! Mother of mercy ... why don't we take away some of your God given rights and ask you if yer content with it!
That's exactly what I would expect an oppressor to say. Ignorance.
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pacp
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Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 20:18:45 GMT -5
You have no right to sodomize each other. Its filthy and the government has the duty to protect its citizens.
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Post by cervyy on May 16, 2006 22:09:34 GMT -5
No right according to your "Christianity." So if the government banned it due to a relgion ... then that would be going against freedom of religion. We don't all have to belong to the same cult as you remember. So, the government really need to protect people's rights from YOU.
No, I don't see it as filthy, like i've said, bigotry is much more a problam and MUCH more flithy then two guys doin it by FAR.
In general, I've learned that I can really dislike or like a person based on if they believe in rights being given to peoples, or taking them away. I really dislike you, even if it goes against my own Christian beliefs. STOP OPPRESSING!!
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 22:33:29 GMT -5
Well puff..I'm back. But I won't be on long....I work you know. Ok...the weed thing was a joke..ha-ha. I have sneaking suspicion that you probably would support liberal drug related laws. Says who? I do not support these "liberal" drug laws. I personally wish we did a better job enforcing the ones we have. Just in case you are unaware, we have been over this before. Well, in that you are incorrect. The police arrest you for breaking a law like assault, not hate. The district attorney decides whether to charge you with a hate crime, and you usually have to be indicted by the grand jury. I would never want to do something that could be construed as a hate crime. You, on the other hand want laxer laws because you are afraid you have committed (or will commit) hate crimes, no? You have yet to answer my questions about neo-nazis and the kkk.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 22:39:44 GMT -5
You have no right to sodomize each other. Its filthy and the government has the duty to protect its citizens. You have no right to drive a car, they are filthy, destroy the envirmonment, kill 42,000 American's each year, and I refuse to participate in this orgy of oil use. I use a car only out of extreme necessity. I drive less than 5 miles per week on average. I walk and use transit for my other transporation needs. However, my idea's of what is tasteful are not basis for legislation. If you think what is between consenting adults is filthy, then don't have sex with another man. Who is the government protecting by banning homosexual intercourse?
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