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Post by fs on Oct 30, 2008 20:03:31 GMT -5
Nonchristians still here and ones who have evidently been banned ??, if there is a way to reach them, why not see if they will let you all come back if only on this section and talk to me. I have things to share with all of you. Evilart, Kureji and David, you are all a pack of college kids, who saw these preachers , got the websit off a banner, nd just figured it fun to hassle them. You have in your own ways asked some and questions, but the truth is there for you to see and you fail to do so. You need to listen to The Word with your hearts and not just your minds. Dale, you frighten me somewhat, more than anyone else here because of your complexity. Beneath the sarcasm and the wisecracks, I sense a longing to accept the truth. What holds you back? Some of your posts where you let down your guard and feel for the people you claim to hate is not as baffling as it may seem. You do not hate thess people as you claim. What made you this way? Swallow some pride, ask to be let back on the board and talk to me. Find Christ while you can. Youa re odler than the rest of these people. Do you not fear death and hell? Shatani, if you are still there or logging on under a different name and lurking, all I can say is come back and talk to me . You are a child, scared of the dark. Fellow Christians who are banned or have left this board due to philosphical issues, come back and talk. A house dicided against itself cannot stand. Let's fight Satan together who is the true enemy and the true divider. Valentine, you are just so smart and great intelligence can be a great curse, for intelligence makes you want to always study everything and thus you complciate what can be simple. Like witht he other college students, try to listen to the Word with our heart and not your mind. Just try at least. Morluna, you are a trip. If you are truly nisexual as you hint and not doing this just to arouse the Christians, the confession does not shock me. I have been there and been set free. Talk to me on this thread. Your insults and wisecracks will not phase me. Come to Christ while you can. Let's talk about it rationally. Kay FS
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Post by fs on Oct 31, 2008 9:30:19 GMT -5
Still waiting prayerfully to talk with any of you here.
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Post by uhatejesse on Oct 31, 2008 11:54:02 GMT -5
Keep waiting, pregnant dog.
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Post by fs on Oct 31, 2008 12:51:55 GMT -5
I have been called worse. Is this the best (or worst) you can do? Now if you want to seriously talk to me about salvation, come back again sometime.
May God bless you, even if you proclaim rejection of his gift of salvation for now.
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Post by valentine on Nov 1, 2008 17:39:03 GMT -5
Okay, lovely, I'll bite. Again. 2. Valentine, you might want to move the conversation to the talk to me blog in the other section rather than here. Check. Second, you cannot fairly judge Christianity by a few examples . You mention attacks by street preachers as what set you off and brought you here? I don't, but thanks for making assumptions about me. I have many Christian friends whom I love dearly and completely trust. The thing is, those on this forum do not qualify. OKay. Let's look at this. Different people use different styles for witnessing and preaching and since we all cannot like or be interested in the same things as we are all different, what works for one person may not work for you. What would have "worked for me" is the preachers in question leaving me alone. While you may have been turned off by what seems to be condemning words from a street preacher, thsoe same words may well be what someone else in the audience needed to hear. Being guided by the Holy Spirit, if that person WAS indeed guided by the same as not everyone who says he is a Christian is one, (There will be surprises in heaven where some of the hypocrites come before Jesus and will hear him say I NEVER knew you.) is something in turn, with respect due, you would not understand and I do not wish you to think I am speaking down to you. No, believe me, I never wish to understand some of the things your lot do in the name of "the holy spirit." The interesting thing is regardless of how or why, you DID come here, are NOT among the evident banned and are communicating with Christians of all types here. The fundies here like me. That's why I wasn't banned. And I would hardly call this board "all types." You are all very similar at your core to me. The Christians I like tend to avoid places like this because the company here tends to sicken them. And by "company," I don't mean the heathens. You also use the phrase "I'm right and THEY"RE wrong." So you choose not to throw me in with "THEM" Interesting. Don't flatter yourself just yet; unlike you, I don't make assumptions, and I don't know you well enough yet to say with confidence that you're wrong. Can YOU prove that THEY are wrong? On the things I take issue with? Yes, and I have, multiple times on this board. Am I wrong? Is what I believe a lie? I have no idea what you believe, and I couldn't care less if it's a lie. Don't tread on me, and I won't tread on you. One problem is you obviously do not believe in the Bible, which is the rule and guide of our faith, so I could quote scriptures to you til I am blue in the face and you will not believe them. You once again assume that I don't. I think many events described in the Bible happened. Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus existed is an idiot. I find it highly unlikely that its moralizing is the right and true way by which to live and that its writers were divinely inspired by some higher power. This is usually not my issue with the "Christians" here, however. I don't really care if you want to believe in God or in the Bible. I can't prove you're wrong, and I can't prove you're right, and I don't care to. My issue is the moralizing and the self-righteous proselytizing and especially the systematic ignorance of science. As a scientist, that is just offensive. So let's step away from the Bible for a moment, play on your ground, and look at a few other things . The Roman historian Josephus is regarded as a very real and very respected historian and he is NOT part of the Bible, yet he gives an account of the resurrection of Jesus. This is from, how would you say, an unbiased reporter. Find his writings in any book store or library. Take a look at him for a change in pace. Maybe later, but history is not something I'm interested in, and, again, I don't care if you want to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. As long as you don't violate my rights in the name of your Jesus, we'll all be cool, but your right to swing your hand ends where my nose begins.
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Post by fs on Nov 1, 2008 21:21:43 GMT -5
Let me put the ball on your court. What exactly do you believe in?
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 1, 2008 21:48:20 GMT -5
So let's step away from the Bible for a moment, play on your ground, and look at a few other things . The Roman historian Josephus is regarded as a very real and very respected historian and he is NOT part of the Bible, yet he gives an account of the resurrection of Jesus. This is from, how would you say, an unbiased reporter. Find his writings in any book store or library. Take a look at him for a change in pace. Did some quick research on Josephus. I know it's really "bad form" to cite Wikipedia, but bear with me. It's the easiest place to pick things out, and the fact that maybe 1% of the time a vandalism edit will get through doesn't really make me think of it as a completely unreliable source. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JosephusJosephus (AD 37 – c. 100),[1] also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias) and, after he became a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus,[2] was a first century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Ok, I see something wrong right here. He's Jewish, which I do not intend as a racist comment. I mean that he practices the religion of Judaism, and thus did not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah or the son of God. Keep that in mind for the next part, which comes from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_JesusThere are two extant references in Josephus on Jesus, the one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. These passages appear in The Antiquities of the Jews, written in the year 93 by the Jewish historian Josephus. All extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain the two passages about Jesus. The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This consensus was questioned in the 20th century. Having established that the authenticity of Testimonium Flavianum is still very unclear (meaning that it is unknown if Josephus wrote it), let's look at what it says. 3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.And now, my previous point about Josephus being a Jew makes more sense, right? Not only was he born in A.D. 37, either four or thirty-seven years after Jesus' death, it's very unlikely that a career Jewish apologetic would write anything claiming Jesus to be "the Christ." I was going to go into more about my personal difficulties in believing in the God of the Bible, but I thought I should present a little counterpoint lest I be told "go read Josephus, then come back." Maybe next post. ;D
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Post by valentine on Nov 1, 2008 22:24:07 GMT -5
Let me put the ball on your court. What exactly do you believe in? I believe in love, science, and great justice. ;D In seriousness, that's a hard question that I don't have a snappy answer to. I'm generally an open-minded agnostic, but I probably lean more to the atheist side of the spectrum when I'm in a particularly upset mood. ETA: And as the Joker would say, I also believe that what doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 1, 2008 23:52:13 GMT -5
I'm generally an open-minded agnostic, but I probably lean more to the atheist side of the spectrum when I'm in a particularly upset mood. Wow, that's a perfect observation of how I was, too. Back when I could be considered a true agnostic, anyway. I think a lot of atheists are agnostics, until pushed by people who act as if everyone should already accept that there IS a god. Anyway, as for the world-view that I'm subscribing to these days. I don't particularly care about converting anyone, but I do like to talk about it. Philosophy and such are interesting topics to me ;D Here's a part of it, I'll list more if this conversation gets that far (and if I am not banned. ) I. Deities As I hinted at before, I used to be an agnostic/atheist, but I tended to lean toward atheist more often than not. However, I never really committed myself to the idea that there had to be no god, or anything else. One day, a few months ago, I got into a situation which would have certainly ruined my life forever. Desperate, since there was no realistic way out, I sought out what I thought to be unrealistic, and asked "whatever is out there" to help me. In return, I promised to stop being so apathetic and/or hardcore atheist, and to start honestly searching for the being that helped me. The "being" upheld its end of the bargain, and I was sufficiently convinced. That said, my view is that there may be more than one deity, none of which are really "omnipotent" but simply possessing great power. However, it is very unlikely that any of them have dominion over what becomes of us when we die. The god/gods have their own agendas, and each of them (if there is more than one) would probably prefer it if people would believe/follow them. However, since there is at best very shaky and unclear indication of their existence, they can not/do not punish anyone for not doing so. In case you're interested, I like to fancy the one with whom I made the deal to be a female deity. Of course, I base that on no evidence whatsoever, and so I fully accept the fact that it may not be so. I simply like to think of it that way for, again, aesthetic purposes. I also, in case you're interested, have not come up with a good enough name for "her." Now, for the part which probably applies to you, and to Christianity. Why do I not believe in God (with a capital G) rather than constructing this elaborate, fantastical cosmology for myself? I hate to cite the same thing three times in a row, but I consider my conception of the universe to be more aesthetically pleasing than the one presented in the Bible. In my world, for example, the gods don't/can't burn you alive for eternity for not believing in them. Since there is only vague and nonconclusive "evidence" for the claims of any religion, I consider them all to be equally likely to be true. No objective truth has been presented to me for any of them (including mine, admittedly, since the "evidence" which brought me to this conclusion only applies to me, and I can never really prove it to anyone else). I consider the matter entirely subjective, and thus I have chosen the one which I deemed to be the most pleasant.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 2, 2008 0:01:54 GMT -5
I should note that since I was a "Christian" (meaning one of those Christians that you are when you are a kid in a religious family, who doesn't go to church often, but fears the hell out of God, etc.) before becoming an agnostic/atheist, it might have seemed to be a logical conclusion that it was God who helped me that day. However, my own research, coupled with everything I've ever heard about God has told me that this cannot be so. Why?
Because the Bible's God doesn't make deals with sinners. You either repent or you don't, and I didn't. Also, God isn't supposed to lie, and whatever it was essentially helped me to lie.
Could it have been Satan? Sure, but there is no more reason for me to believe that than there is for me to believe my story, so again, I picked the one that is more subjectively satisfying.
Sorry for double posting. The addendum didn't seem to fit anywhere, and my previous post is already beginning to look unreadable to me anyway.
*sigh*
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 7:15:01 GMT -5
No, I disagree. if someone was to forge the words of of this very real philosopher to give credit to Christian doctrine then it makes sense for him to have been a convert, which there is no indication whatsoever that he became. No one can deny this was a real person and his historical notation of the existance of Jesus is proof outside the Bible that such a person did in fact exist.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 2, 2008 11:50:20 GMT -5
Well, I agree with you that Jesus, the man, existed at some point in history. I agree that he might have believed that he was the son of God, and that he led a Jewish movement which eventually became Christianity.
What I do not believe in is his claim that he was the son of God, or that a God as is described in the Bible exists.
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 13:49:58 GMT -5
Then how do you dispute the resurrection and those who witnessed it? What happened to the body? Are you going to try to tell me Jesus was a vampire or a zombie or rats ate the body? People saw him after he was crucified and died. There are loads of witnesses. How do you count for the body not being found? The idea that the Roman guards fell asleep and desciples stole the body is ridiculous as those guards would have been executed. Jesus rose from the dead.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 2, 2008 14:33:03 GMT -5
Well, if Testimonium Flavianum wasn't written by Josephus, then it was written by someone later on who simply attributed it to him falsely. Even if it was written by him, he could have in no way witnessed the death and resurrection of Jesus because he wasn't born at the time that it supposedly happened.
As for what happened to the body, I've never seen anything outside the Bible, or not written by a Christian scholar 100 years after the "event", that would suggest to me that the body even disappeared. Even if it did, there is no hard evidence that it just miraculously vanished, or that the reports of the disciples were true. Someone can say "I saw Jesus four days after he "died", and he was just fine." all day long, but unless I saw it myself, or someone took a photo, (lol) then there is not really much of a reason for me to believe that it happened.
As far as written record goes, I'm pretty sure that there are reports that say "The disciples of Jesus claim that Jesus came back from the dead." or "The disciples of Jesus say that the body vanished into thin air." But I have yet to see an objective document that would prove that either of those things actually happened.
Edit: Furthermore, regarding the "witnesses": Anyone who "witnessed" the resurrection of Jesus was already a follower of Jesus before "witnessing" this event. Therefore, they had something to gain by believing that he rose from the dead.
That "something to gain" being the continuation of their lifelong beliefs. People are capable of lying, and even if they truly believed that it happened, they could have been mistaken. As I said in one of my longer posts, there is no hard evidence that they were mistaken, just as there is no hard evidence that they were not. Therefore, choosing to believe one or the other is a subjective choice.
If you choose to believe that the disciples weren't mistaken in some way (I.E. the body wasn't stolen, the man they saw wasn't someone else who claimed to be Jesus, etc.) then you must believe in the rest of the claims of Jesus, and of the Bible itself.
If you choose not to, which is an equally valid choice given the lack of evidence, then you do not have to believe that you will be burned alive for eternity if you do not blindly obey an invisible master.
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 14:47:09 GMT -5
Blessed is he who has not seen and believed." Hesus told this to Thomas when he doubted and said he had to see Jesus and put his hands on the wounds and lo, there he was.
Again, what about the body? Jesus went to rest in a rich man's tomb donated to him by Joseph or Aremethia . Why was the skeleton never found?
Jesus ROSE from the DEAD. He IS ALIVE! NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, HE LIVES
It is because Jesus ROSE and HE IS ALIVE
Up from the grave he arose, with a mighty triumph for his woes. He arose a victor from the dark domain and he lives forever with hisa saints today. he arose, he arose, hallejulah Christ arose.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 2, 2008 15:08:54 GMT -5
I added some stuff to my post, as you were replying. Any number of things could happen to a skeleton to make it disappear.
Option 1) Graverobber: Why would someone steal a body, you say? Because they want to defile it? Because they practice some ritualistic sorcery in which they need body parts? Because they wish to add credibility to the claims that Jesus rose from the dead? For all I know, the man who donated the tomb could have been a Christian. Otherwise, why would he donate a lavish tomb to a man he didn't know? If he was a Christian, there is a very real possibility that he did something to the body in order to make other Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead. The thing is, you can't prove it either way. It's just a matter of whether you believe or not, and I see no reason to.
Furthermore, can you explain to me why this man's tomb was so important that a group of non-Christian Roman soldiers would be assigned to guard it?
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 15:19:06 GMT -5
Because it was all part of the plan of God.
Oh, being a Baptist I am going to church at night soon and will say a special prayer for you specifically that you be enlightened and find the faith to accept what is true.
Jesus loves you and so do I.
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Post by valentine on Nov 2, 2008 15:21:47 GMT -5
Ignoring Valentine and her posts, I see. Jesus might love me, but do you? =(
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 15:26:14 GMT -5
Yes. The Lord directed you to log on at this time and it is no coincidence. I will pray for you too. The love I have for you as a lost soul needing the truth is shallow when compared to the love Jesus has for the lost. If only you would see it.
You both just cannot imagine the pain and suiffering he went through to save people from sin. Rent The Passion of the Christ and watch the sickening beating and crucifying scenes. The movie is mild compared to what really went down. He did this for YOU
Picture this horrible stuff being done to a friend or relative and ask how you would feel. How would you feel seeing a relative hung on a cross. Have you ever loved anyone enough where you would die for them? Jesus did die and rise fromt he dead for you and all sinners. He calls you.
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Post by valentine on Nov 2, 2008 15:43:03 GMT -5
Yes. The Lord directed you to log on at this time and it is no coincidence. I will pray for you too. The love I have for you as a lost soul needing the truth is shallow when compared to the love Jesus has for the lost. If only you would see it. You both just cannot imagine the pain and suiffering he went through to save people from sin. Rent The Passion of the Christ and watch the sickening beating and crucifying scenes. The movie is mild compared to what really went down. He did this for YOU Picture this horrible stuff being done to a friend or relative and ask how you would feel. How would you feel seeing a relative hung on a cross. Have you ever loved anyone enough where you would die for them? Jesus did die and rise fromt he dead for you and all sinners. He calls you. No, thanks, Matthew Shepard being hung on a cross by your fellow bigots was enough for me. You don't seem to actually want to discuss anything with me. You haven't responded to any of my points and just repeat yourself over and over. If you really read old posts you'd see that this crap has been flung at me hundreds of times, and it's yet to work. The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
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Post by fs on Nov 2, 2008 19:58:39 GMT -5
I came gome from church to pray for you alone and hope your eyes will be open and submitted you in the prayer requests at church .I will skip dinner and fast for you tomorrow and pray more. I cannot tell you how much I weep for you. Do you want to go to hell? Do you want to be forever seperate from Jesus and happiness. Do you want to face Jesus as your judge and hear him say the fearful words, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"
The definition of stupidity is not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The definition of stupidity is to willingly end in hell when there is a way out.
The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.
The fool has said in his heart there is no god.
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Post by valentine on Nov 2, 2008 20:31:58 GMT -5
Dear, thank you, that's sweet, but really, don't waste your time or effort. As I said in my last post, the other fundies here have been trying to change my mind for two and a half years, and it's not going to happen. I obviously can't stop you, but I want to warn you that your efforts would be better spent elsewhere. If you really want to do something for me, donate some supplies to international orphanages. I'm particularly passionate about orphans in Kyrgyzstan and Russia. Do you want to go to hell? Do you want to be forever seperate from Jesus and happiness. Do you want to face Jesus as your judge and hear him say the fearful words, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels? Well, no, since I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen, I'm not going to waste time worrying about it. Beliefs are not choices. You cannot force yourself to believe something. If you are truly correct, which I do not believe that you are, there is nothing I can do about what I believe, so the best thing to do would be not to worry about it. The fool has said in his heart there is no god. That may be true, but he can't make his heart say differently, either. Feelings aren't choices, either, sorry to say. And again, you keep repeating yourself over and over and ignoring what I say. And again I will warn you that that's not going to work, and you're wasting your time.
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Post by fs on Nov 3, 2008 0:03:31 GMT -5
It is my time to waste if I so choose. I cannot give up on the unsaved on the board. There is so much piotential for you if only you decide to serve the Lord.
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Post by valentine on Nov 3, 2008 8:58:27 GMT -5
It sure is, and I never said it wasn't, but it's also your right to perpetuate this ridiculous persecution complex of yours, so carry on.
But you're also not holding up your end of the deal to "talk" to us. So far the only "talking" has been me answering your questions and you ignoring everything I say and saying the same thing over and over. I'm going to get tired of this eventually, fs.
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Post by fs on Nov 3, 2008 17:10:40 GMT -5
Have you ever stolen anything ?
Have you ever lusted after another man?
Have you ever told a lie?
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 3, 2008 19:38:58 GMT -5
1. Yes, a few times.
2. No, but I've lusted after plenty of women, if that's what you're getting at.
3. Yes, plenty of times.
Let me guess? According to the Bible, I'm going to Hell. But since I don't believe about half of the things that the Bible says, why should I believe that part?
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Post by fs on Nov 3, 2008 21:27:49 GMT -5
I was talking to Valentine so I would wish you have not lusted after another man, Doctor. Actually I was going to go all Way of the Master on you all, but I see you are ahead of me on this. Let me save my breath. Just go to www.wayofthemaster.com and take the are you a good person test and I can save my breath.
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Post by valentine on Nov 3, 2008 22:53:39 GMT -5
1.) Actually, I don't think so. 2.) Yay lust! ;D 3.) Of course not. The previous sentence was a lie. Please quit ignoring us, fs; it's getting really tiresome. This is only going to be amusing to me for so much longer. Let me guess? According to the Bible, I'm going to Hell. But since I don't believe about half of the things that the Bible says, why should I believe that part? What he said. < -- And that smiley says it far better than I ever could.
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Post by thegooddoctorwho on Nov 3, 2008 23:56:47 GMT -5
"Lots of people think that they are a good person. But what you should be asking is, am I good enough to get into Heaven?"
See, I found something wrong right there.
Again, I don't believe in Heaven. If I did believe in separate positive and negative afterlives, I would not necessarily believe the Bible's "rules" for membership of each one. The test assumes that the only way to be a good person is to follow the Ten Commandments, a set of rules which non-Christians may not necessarily hold to be true.
In the event that I am a non-Christian who thinks that it is wrong to steal, lie, and fornicate (and I do believe that they are, with the exception of fornicate.) I still could think that breaking those Commandments on isolated occasions does not mark you as a bad person for life.
Perhaps I believe that it is possible to redeem yourself with good works. For example, I believe that a man can steal a toy as a child, be genuinely sorry for doing it later on, and move on. If he, say, donates money to charities, helps old ladies cross the street, and mentors at-risk youth later in his life, I would not continue to taunt him for that piece of plastic he stole 20 years ago. I would forget about it, and consider him a good person.
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Post by Kureji on Nov 3, 2008 23:59:06 GMT -5
Evilart, Kureji and David, you are all a pack of college kids, who saw these preachers , got the websit off a banner, nd just figured it fun to hassle them. You have in your own ways asked some and questions, but the truth is there for you to see and you fail to do so. You need to listen to The Word with your hearts and not just your minds. Are you really grouping me with art and david? Did you even read my posts? Anyway, I'm sorry that blind belief isn't my thing. You might be into that stuff, but I prefer being able to prove something that I believe in. All of your I feel warm and fluffy stuff so Jesus must be with me, is kind of silly and honestly you're just deluding yourself. I haven't been around recently because I'm still alittle bitter at Jesse for grouping me with all the others he decided to ban. He should know better, I'm also still expecting her to make me ... was it a chicken cesar wrap? Something like that... You know what they say, the best way to win a heathen to Jesus is through his stomach. Also, hey Val nice to see you again, It's nice to see some arguments that actually consist of logic again. I wish I had more time, I'd join in the debate but unfortunately I have more important things to do.
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