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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 12, 2009 23:44:40 GMT -5
Someone recently asked me, “Socialists is that really bad??, I'd like Socialized health care” because I have “Socialists” listed on my sandwich board. I object to Socialism because it violates the moral and economic principles of private property or rightful belongings.
Socialism is stealing the hard earned money of the productive and giving it to the unproductive. Socialism is taking money from those who deserve it (who worked for it) and giving it to people who do not deserve it (who didn’t work for it). This is unjust and is therefore wrong. President Obama wants to nationalize health care. He wants to steal from the rich and give to the poor. Who does he think he is, Robin Hood? This is America, not Nottingham! Besides, nationalized health care would require over-taxation, which would make Obama more like the Sheriff of Nottingham….
The receiver of Nationalized Health care would benefit and therefore would enjoy it, but the one who has to pay for it would suffer and therefore not enjoy it. The one who doesn’t have to pay for their health care would like it, but the one who has to pay for another persons health care (or go to jail for not) would not like it.
A bank robber likes the money that comes from robbing banks. But it is still wrong to rob banks. Likewise, even though people would like health care that they don't pay for, it is still wrong to steal the money of someone else to pay for it.
Besides, our natural necessities give us the incentive to get out there and work. God no doubt designed us with necessities to create productivity. Socialism, however, punishes the productive for being productive (by taking what belongs to them) and rewards the unproductive for being unproductive (by giving them what does not belong to them). This is completely contrary to a good economic system. Work should be rewarded with benefit, such as health care. Health care is a good reason to work.
If the government paid for our health care, or grocery bill, or mortgage, what incentive would we have to work? Where do we draw the line as to what the government does for us and what we do for ourselves? The Government should not do what the people are capable of doing. Therefore the government should stay out of economy and health care. We can take care of that ourselves. To take control over those areas, when there is no necessity, is nothing more than tyranny! Our generation greatly needs to grasp the concept of independence and personal responsibility. We need more individual freedom and more limited government. We need to know how to take care of ourselves and our own necessities, not making our Government into a parental figure upon whom we are dependent because we haven’t taken our own personal responsibility or have grown up to adult independence. Besides, I know better how my money should be spent than the government does, therefore they should stay out of my pocket as much as possible.
In Capitalism, you can practice charity if you want. You can give all your money to pay for the medical bills of someone else if you want. That is your free will choice. In Socialism, you are forced to pay for the medical bills of someone else through taxation or face severe penalties. Capitalism is liberty and freedom. Socialism is theft and bondage. Capitalism produces hard work. Socialism produces laziness.
The Bible says a “worker is worthy of His wages”. That is Capitalism. The Bible says “if a man doesn’t work, neither shall he eat”. These are economic principles that work, which have made America great.
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Post by fs on Feb 13, 2009 10:03:38 GMT -5
Interesting for someone who depends on the donations of others to survive.
Hypocrite.
Answer me one thing and I ask it sincerely. Just how and why do you seem to be an expert one everything?
It seem,s to me I heard a story about asking for help when YOU and YOUR wife were caught without insurance to help pay your bills.
Why did you to quit the ministry for a time and get a job at Circle K then.
Just answer that one for me before you of on another of these rants.
Instead of that trite "Yoga aren't a real Christian," give me an answer tot hsi question I pose and explain why you yourself are not a hypocrite.
I am deathly curious to know.
You could clearly do great things for God. I am sure of that. Do not get me wrong,. However, there's plenty you need to get called on. You seem to think you are above reproach and you are far from, it.
I say this for your benefit and with love in Christ that you find the way as you seem to really eb stumbling.
I pray you see the hypocrisy and repent
May your ministry be all it can be.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Feb 13, 2009 10:20:30 GMT -5
There's a difference between raising support and submitting to socialism!
If that isn't the case, then goodness, Paul did atrocious things in the Bible.
Becareful, FS, when you tell other people what they think or what they know.
Socialism IS awful. Asking people to support a ministry is biblical - depending on your heart motive. When someone gives to a ministry, the Bible says in Philippians they will take part in the fruit that is harvested from it.
I've known Jesse for quite a while now - he works HARD.
It's NOT easy to do what he does. I've travelled with him full time before. Standing on a campus for 5-7 hours, sometimes 5 days a week, then to spend the night on the streets doing ministry during the weekend is a hard field to plow and Jesse's been doing it for going on 5 years without looking back.
Open Air Outreach needs the support of generous Christians who see the importance of that work. As do foreign missionaries and nationals, pastors, evangelists, etc.
Sometimes the way God provides isn't through manna from heaven, but from His people.
FS, you seem very sincere in your posts and questions. God bless you for that, just becareful what you assume.
Sincerely, Jeff
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Post by judgment on Feb 13, 2009 16:21:06 GMT -5
Do not question Jesse as he cannot be wrong because he does not sin.
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Post by judgment on Feb 13, 2009 19:38:12 GMT -5
PS. You know what, Jesse, if you don't like the direction Obama is taking this country, why don't you just pack up and leave for eight years! I am sure they can sue missionaries of your quality in Africa,
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Post by boldforchrist on Feb 13, 2009 20:11:08 GMT -5
Are you saying that the saints can not have an opinion? If anyone is posting on this board, then I hope it is because you have given your life to Christ, it should be that having done that you have left sin behind and you now serve Christ and not sin. Obama, I assure you, will make more work for us all, all of us that preach Christ. I think his "all roads lead to Heaven" philosophy and his distorted beliefs will lead even more Americans further away from Christ. My Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we will soon all have our work cut out for us here. What little bit of "One nation, under God" that remains in this country will soon be surgically removed from this nation by Obama. I pray I am wrong here, but I fear the worst. How about instead of all this name calling we instead go out into the towns, while we still have the freedom to do so, and we all be witnesses for Our Lord? How about instead of trying to cut down Jesse, we all go out and "preach the word"to this rotting world? I often get heckled when I preach Christ, when I hand out tracts in public I run into some very hate filled people. I like to come to this board from time to time to show myself that I am not in this alone. That there are others like myself out there faithfully serving the Lord, but instead I see fellow saints calling eachother hypocrites! "Well done my good and faithfull servant"
Thank you Jesse for all you do, I know you do it for no other reason than to be a faithfull servant and lead others to Christ. I think you do it for the same reason I do it, because you can not not do it!
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Post by judgment on Feb 13, 2009 21:17:33 GMT -5
Of course street preachers are allowed opinions and likewise a person may be sincere but wrong. The problem is one of attitude as the street preachers love to express their opinion, but have nio tolerance of anyone who disagrees with anything they say. And I would not call them saints as this is way too liberal a complement,. They are not saints, but street preachers. They are not ordained, they have a limited and often erroneous interpretation of the Bible, and do not have the authority to speak as they do. IOU seems Jesse and his minions have no problem with cutting other people down. Stop the double standard, hypocrite.
I will thank you, Jesse, when you do something to deserve thanks for. I will thank you when you speak the truth. I will thank you when you lose this massive ego of yours and humble yourself before the lord instead of speaking as the be all and end all of so many things. I will thank you when you come to your senses and stop preaching about the loss of salvation and about sinless perfection and speak of the love and cross of Christ as it is meant to be spoken. I will praise you when you have the bravery to confront your challengers rather than run from them, hide from them, ban them from the board or delete them as you have done so many times.
To quite from The Sopranos in the secular world, :Them that wants respect, give respect!"
I am Judgment, Jesse. hear my words while there is time. Ditto for those who follow this clique. Repent and see the error of your ways.
As for the railroading of Obama here, how can you call yourselves good Americans if not Christians and not accept the fact the PEOPLE have spoken. Live with it. If you don;t like it, go on a mission and put your money where your mouth is. Split!
If you want to look at false Christians look at George Bush, John McCain, Sara Palin, Karl Rove and so many others. These people will all have their place in the lake of fire. They are false Christians who have used Jesus for gain. He is not fooled
Do not join them int he lake of fire.
I deplore the hypocrisy of the street preachers and it is long overdue that you answer for your actions.
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Post by boldforchrist on Feb 14, 2009 10:01:54 GMT -5
Why do so many worry about hypocrites? They will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ just like everyone else, they do not need to stand before the judgement seat of you! As far as those who preach without being ordained, I have this question.... what seminary school did Paul attend? or how about Peter? One is ordained to preach the Word when so called by Christ to do so, one is called to preach when the Holy Spirit compels them to do so. You are so quick to push mission work for every answer, must you go to Africa to do missions? I think your missions is anywhere the Holy Spirit compels you to go! This is about the time you should be telling me to leave the country! But I served my country in the Gulf War and until you have marched on hostile soil maybe you should leave your comments about my love of country to yourself. If Jesse is sent to do open air preaching then he is sent to do open air preaching! You my friend are not calling the shots on who serves and where! When have our hands fulll with all the atheist and God haters out there now, so why start fights with men who are doing their best to lead others to Christ? So what their ways are not your ways, so what if they fear the worst from Obama, should we celebrate abortion because more people agree with pro choice than do pro life? I hope you are being a faithful witness, I hope you are doing something to reach the lost, I hope that you continue to grow in grace and become more in the image of Christ. What ever these street preachers do to bring the gospel to those living is sin, can not be a bad thing. Shout Christ is Lord to all who can hear, we are not here to impress man!
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Post by judgment on Feb 14, 2009 10:28:17 GMT -5
Their best is not good enough when they are wrong. On the contrary also, the street preachers are here to impress men, especially their own little clique on the board. Their style, their absurd and abstract doctrines such as sinless perfection and the endless name calling are a disservice to God. For every rare one they reach, how many turn away because of their delivery and name calling. They cause the little ones to stumble. They say to stop sinning. They need to look at themselves. It is better to be judged by me and rectify their errors than to die and find out Christ never knew any of them in spite of their claims.
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Post by judgment on Feb 14, 2009 10:33:26 GMT -5
Oh. On a light note, even judges need a break and I have a party to ready myself for. Being born this day has its drawbacks and high points I guess. Thank you for your PM.
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Post by fred on Feb 14, 2009 23:39:59 GMT -5
Brothers and sisters, if you spent this energy trying to win the lost and not arguing with each other you all would move mountains for the lord. Think on it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 15, 2009 14:06:40 GMT -5
Taking or giving donations is Capitalism. In Capitalism, you can give your money to whomever you want.
In Socialism, the Government takes your money and spends it on whomever they want.
The people who support my ministry do so by their own free will choice, not because the Government threatens them if they do not.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 15, 2009 14:43:28 GMT -5
This is from my facebook:
Someone said that in Canada there is "free" health care. I responded with:
in Canada you pay more taxes for your "free" health care. The Government doesn't make money out of thin air to pay the hospitals. The Government taxes the people. Who do you think pays for the health care for most of the people? Obviously the rich are forced to do so. Through taxation, the Government steals money from those who deserve it and gives it to those who do not deserve it.
Someone else tried to justify socialism by "give to Ceasar what is Ceasars". I responded with:
Give to Ceasar what is Ceasars, and give to the people what belongs to the people! A worker is worthy of his wages. The person who works should reap the reward of his work, not somebody else! In Socialism, the productive do not get what they deserve and the unproductive get what they do not deserve. This is unjust and is therefore wrong.
We need limited government, individual freedom and individual responsibility, and private property. That is the American way.
I never said that a person who needs health care is undeserving. We all need health care! What I said is that the person who works is deserving of the reward, the person who doesn't work is not deserving of the reward. We all need health care therefore we should all work for it. It is our own responsibility to pay our bills. The government should no more pay for our medical bills than they should pay for our grocery bill or our mortgage. Should we nationalized auto care as well? Where is the line?
We must draw the line between individual responsibility and government control. We can manage our own economics or business, the government doesn’t have to. We can manage our own health, the government doesn’t have to. We can educate our own children, the government doesn’t have to. We can determine our own religious beliefs, the government doesn’t have to do that for us. Government control, where there is no necessity, is nothing short of tyranny.
Individuals have the liberty to give their money to the poor, or pay for the medical bills of someone else, if they want to. We are capable of determining how our own hard earned money should be spent. We are not dependent upon the so called "smarter elitists" in government to determine how our hard earned money should be spent. We are more qualified to determine how our own money should be spent. The elitists look upon the rest of he world as too stupid to know how to spend their own money. If we see our brother in need, it is our individual responsibility to take care of them by our own voluntary choice. Take care of the poor. We can do that without the government stealing our money, picking our pockets, or plundering our bank accounts.
Someone said Socialism is a good idea because medical treatment can be so expensive. I answered:
Somebody needs to pay Doctors. They do not work for free. Money always comes from somebodies hard work. Who's hard earned money should pay for your medical expenses?
It is only just that the person who works should determine on whom their money is spent. And it is only just that the one who receives the services should pay for the services. Anything else is unjust.
Further Remarks:
The Government does not exist to be a parental figure which we are to be dependent upon for all of our necessities. The Government is not supposed to be a medical insurance company. Medical insurance companies work fine as private companies and therefore there is no necessity for them to be owned or operated by the government.
The government exists to protect the rights of the people. The responsibility of the government, the reason for its existence, is to protect the rights of the people. We have a right to private property, that includes not only our material goods but our monetary goods. The Government is supposed to protect our wealth, not redistribute our wealth. The people are best qualified to determine how and on whom their hard earned money is to be spent. "Redistributing wealth" is another name for theft. A thief "redistributes" the money of others. Socialism is legalized theft, a plundering of the private property of others. When a government turns to Socialism, they are violating the very reason for their own existence, they are operating contrary to their responsibility.
The responsibility of the government should be limited and restricted to only what is absolutely necessary. What is unnecessary is tyranny. It is unnecessary for the government to "redistribute wealth" because the people are capable and qualified of doing that themselves.
There is some taxation which is necessary and legitimate. We should pay the government for their services, like paying the military. Capitalism teaches that a worker is worthy of his wages, therefore there Capitalism allows for government taxation. But legitimate taxation is always limited taxation. Over taxation is theft and tyranny.
Society is supposed to operating by having independent individuals taking care of their own responsibilities and necessities, with individuals voluntarily providing for those who cannot provide for themselves.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 15, 2009 14:56:01 GMT -5
This is from my facebook: Someone said that in Canada there is "free" health care. I responded with:in Canada you pay more taxes for your "free" health care. The Government doesn't make money out of thin air to pay the hospitals. The Government taxes the people. Who do you think pays for the health care for most of the people? Obviously the rich are forced to do so. Through taxation, the Government steals money from those who deserve it and gives it to those who do not deserve it. Ontario charges a tax on income for the health system. These amounts are collected through the income tax system, and do not determine eligibility for public health care. The Ontario Health Premium is an additional amount charged on an individual's income tax that ranges from $300 for people with $20,000 of taxable income to $900 for high income earners. Individuals with less than $20,000 in taxable income are exempt. Quebec also requires residents to obtain prescription insurance. When an individual does not have insurance, they must pay an income-derived premium. As these are income related, they are considered to be a tax on income under the law in Canada. Other provinces, such as British Columbia, charge premiums collected outside of the tax system for the provincial medicare systems. These are usually reduced or eliminated for low-income people.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 15, 2009 17:56:32 GMT -5
“I cannot agree with denying the poor health care just because they cannot pay for it.”
In America, nobody will be denied necessary health treatment because they are poor. Hospitals will treat people whether they are poor or rich, whether they have insurance or not. Though they cannot pay their bill all at once, they can pay their bill over time. There are “payment plans” for health care just as there is for any other expensive purchase.
It is the responsibility of the individual to be benevolent towards their neighbor. It is the responsibility of the Church to provide for the poor. It is not the proper responsibility of the Government to provide health care for everyone and anyone using public tax dollars.
I see some homeless people who I do not want to give my money too, because they are clearly homeless by choice. They could work, but refuse to do so. Others are homeless by necessity, because they cannot work. Those poor by choice should not receive charity. They should reap the consequences of their actions, not reap the fruit of another person’s labor. Those poor by necessity should receive charity. We should provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.
Only in Capitalism can the people determine who they help with their money and who they do not help with their money. Capitalism guards against the abuse of the lazy in a way which Socialism cannot.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 15, 2009 22:11:06 GMT -5
God is a Capitalist. Jesus was not a Socialist. Capitalism, not Socialism, is taught in the Holy Scriptures. The Bible teaches against the redistribution of wealth when it says, “thou shalt not steal” (Exodus 20:15). The Bible teaches private property when God divided the promise land for the tribes Israel (Numbers 33:54). The Bible teaches a capitalistic economic system when it says “a laborer is worthy of his hire” (Luke 10:7). The Bible teaches individual responsibility when it says “if any would not work, neither should he eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10). The Bible says that each person should “eat their own bread” (2 Thessalonians 3:12). The Bible considers it unjust for one man to built and another man inhabit, for one man to plant and another man eat, instead of each individual enjoying the work of their own hands (Isaiah 65:22). Men are not to steal the labor of others but are to work with their own hands (Ephesians 4:28). These are the principles upon which America has prospered. Take away these principles from our society or economy and you remove the very foundation of the prosperity of America.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 15, 2009 23:03:07 GMT -5
Big govt. for years have moved us this way towards Socialism. In this day and time we see where the working of the feds in this economic crises is to get us into a Socialist system. This is what happened in Egypt; what about 6,000 years ago. And we know what that produced. Slavery.
Genesis 47:14-18, "And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house. And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth. And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail. And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year. When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:"
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 16, 2009 7:44:20 GMT -5
Taxation for a capitalist society were suppose to be used for the working man. The man who paid taxes. For a better enviroment such as paying protection against crime, better roads, schooling for his children etc...
It was not made to benefit those who do not pay taxes. I have worked in the pas for a number of years with the govt program HUD. After 8 years there I was sicked to see where our, the working mans money was being wasted.
Housing these people that never had a job. It benefited mainly these young women who had children that were unwed. The thing is they keep having more children getting more money from us the taxpayers and living a life of immoral conduct to the max. They have their boyfriends, mainly drug users and dealers come live with them, so they too would have housing and food at our expense who is the working man (taxpayer).
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 16, 2009 8:01:08 GMT -5
"Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living. In other words, socialism is a form of legalized theft".
By Bradley Thompson
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Post by judgment on Feb 16, 2009 9:59:55 GMT -5
You idiots are not worth the trouble and are lost in your won stupidity.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Feb 16, 2009 20:16:01 GMT -5
So Judgment... Are you for socialism or not?
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Post by aymaco on Feb 17, 2009 0:05:58 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 17, 2009 0:12:16 GMT -5
Free market creates competition which creates quality and improvements.
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Post by aymaco on Feb 17, 2009 0:28:52 GMT -5
Free market also lowers the cost.
There is no competition in the current system therefore prices keep going up and people cannot afford healthcare. Government regulation and red tape have increased the price and lowered the quality.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Feb 17, 2009 12:20:35 GMT -5
I am not making an endorsement of Rush Limbaugh, but he once told the historical account of the true "First Thanksgiving." It's the story of the birth of Capitalism in America.
They started with the idea that everyone gets a fair share of the goods produced and made not matter what. But then the lazy folks were getting the same as the hard working folks... eventually leading to a very hard winter. But when they divied up the land and said "here! It's yours to take care of and produce." and the indians helped them understand better how to grow in that climate - they had such an overabundance, they were able to share with the Indians.
That by no means does justice to how the story goes in full... but I think you get the jist.
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Post by tonyholland on Feb 18, 2009 0:48:14 GMT -5
Could you please reference your source?
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Post by Melmoth on Feb 18, 2009 7:31:51 GMT -5
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Post by tonyholland on Feb 18, 2009 14:29:56 GMT -5
Very cute I did google this, and located the exact position on healthcare from the administration. While it did have some items that would increase government participation somewhat, it stopped very short of the blatant "socialism" that Jesse is describing in his post. I'm just asking what sources that HE used to gather his information.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 18, 2009 23:09:10 GMT -5
Welfare, Universalism Health care, all constitutes socialism. If we are going to determine whether or not Obama is a Socialist, we need to first define socialism. What is Socialism? Socialism is stealing the hard earned money of the productive and giving it to the unproductive. Socialism is taking money from those who deserve it (who worked for it) and giving it to people who do not deserve it (who didn’t work for it). In Socialism, some people legally get more than they deserve and other people legally get less than they deserve. This is unjust and is therefore wrong. Socialism essential punishes the productive for being productive, by taking from the fruit of their labor, and rewards the unproductive for being unproductive, by giving them the fruit of somebody else’s labor. Socialism is when people are generous with other people’s money. Socialism is morally wrong in principle and in practice. Socialism is when the governments legally pick pockets your wallet and legally plunders your bank account. OBAMA THE SOCIALISTPresident Obama borrows from the ideology and philosophy of Karl Marx when he talks about redistributing the wealth. Obama said, “I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Karl Marx said, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” In other words, what Obama and Marx are saying is that each individual should not reap the fruit of their own labor, but the government should distribute it as they want. Source: www.nypost.com/seven/10152008/news/politics/obama_fires_a_robin_hood_warning_shot_133685.htm"The time has come for universal, affordable health care in America…” Who is going to pay for this? Obama’s website says, “Democrat Barack Obama is offering a sweeping plan that would provide every citizen a means to have health coverage and calls on government, businesses and consumers to share the costs of the program.” In other words, the government will take money from those who have it to pay for the health care of those who do not have it. Source: www.barackobama.com/2007/05/29/obama_offers_universal_health.php
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 18, 2009 23:17:38 GMT -5
Universal health care can only exist through three ways.
First, universal health care is possible if everyone works hard and earns enough money to pay for it.
Second, universal health care is possible if doctors begin to work for free.
Third, universal health care is possible if the government steals the money of those who deserve it in order to pay for the health care of those who cannot afford it.
It is through the third scenario that socialists in America are planning on legislating universal health care.
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