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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 20, 2009 16:48:24 GMT -5
The government has legitimate services. For example Police, courts, and military. There is also legitimate taxation. The public should pay for guns, bullets, tanks, airplanes, etc which are necessary to protect this country and consequently protect our rights.
Government employees also need to be paid. Government buildings and other supplies also need to be purchased. The people should pay for this. That is legitimate taxation.
Illegitimate taxation is when the Government takes the hard earned money of one individual and gives it to another individual who does not deserve it. That is legalized theft.
The government is not responsible for the elderly.
Families are responsible for the elderly.
Christians are responsibility for the elderly.
It is not necessary for the government to do so, we can do it ourselves just fine.
Yes.
This type of program encourages fornication.
A single mother who struggles should be an incentive to the rest of the women of society to wait until marriage to have children, so that the Father will provide for their needs.
Her family could help her. The Church could help her. She can help herself. The government does not need to.
It is wrong for the government to take the hard earned money of one individual and give it to another individual who does not deserve it.
We are not to be dependent upon the government for our necessities.
My mother had my brother and I out of wedlock. Neither of our fathers provided for us. But my mother worked hard and we found help from our family and community. We were not dependent upon the government. It is not the role, purpose, or responsibility of the government to be a grocery store or an insurance company.
Of course, there are Churches and other charities who have soup kitchens, food pantries, etc, who give out free food to the poor.
And if grocery stores want to give away free food to the poor, they can do that also. But it is wrong for people to be generous with other peoples money.
The hospitals will treat the child and then put the mother on a payment plan that she can afford.
If the doctors want to work for free, that is good too. And if any government officials want to pay the medical bill, out of their own pockets, that is good as well.
It is not the responsibility of the government to use tax dollars to pay for anyone's medical care, except government employees who work for it.
Oh no. We can't afford it.
I will either borrow money from friends, supporters, or family, or go on a payment plan with the Hospital.
That gives me an idea. Maybe somebody should start a business where they loan money to people to pay their medical bills, then the people can pay back that business over time. Maybe the banks can start doing medical loans.
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Post by nullnvoid on Feb 20, 2009 17:56:34 GMT -5
Might want to stop paying taxes then. Of course, if you use your religion right you can get away with all your earnings tax-free. Yeah, that'll show the big bad government!
Go move overseas if you don't like it. We have social programs there for a reason: To help those that are unable to help themselves. The amount of abuse in the system is minimal in comparison to how much genuine help is given.
If you should be mad at the government for something it should be the Corporate Welfare that major businesses/Wall Street has been receiving for screwing up and getting greedy. Tons of tax dollars are being wasted so that the rich can remain rich.
But hey, at least your tax dollars aren't going to the poor people who abuse it, right?
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Post by fs on Feb 20, 2009 17:59:45 GMT -5
I am strongly in favor of national health care and strongly in favor of government re-regulation of many corporations that have been robbing us blind ever since I was a kid.
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 18:03:14 GMT -5
New guy on the site here. I'll chime in on this. I think Socialism is a bad thing. We should be killing all the social programs so that the everyday American has more money to spend out in the economy. I find it stupid that I lose $200+ to the government every time I get paid. Let's just end it all and let people like me stimulate the economy without having to spend another $800 billion dollars.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 20, 2009 18:10:56 GMT -5
Medical care is a responsibility, not a right. It is something that we are supposed to work for, not receive for free.
Medical care is very expensive. Purchasing a house, a new car, or starting a business is also expensive. Banks give out business loans, house loans, and private loans. Banks give loans for big expenses. It would be a good thing for our society if banks started giving out medical loans for people who need them. Each person can pay back their medical loan in accordance with what they can afford, on the time scale that works for them.
Medical loans is by far better than any type of socialism.
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 18:17:45 GMT -5
You said it Jesse! I think that medical loans are a great idea. I just hope that banks don't pull what they pulled with subprime mortgages and then ask the government for a bailout! It would be socialized health care all the same. Jesse, what should happen to people who can't afford their health care and can't get a loan anymore from anyone, including family? Would it be better to just send them to God?
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Post by fs on Feb 20, 2009 18:20:23 GMT -5
Medical loans might work, but you cannot trust the banks on this country and there is another big problem,
We have to agree to blatantly disagree on this one, just like we have to disagree on the use of your friend Jed';s use of the word Queers in sermons.
That aside, I am hoping you and yours are well and Lord Jesus sends the right people who need to hear the message as you preach it and will be influenced by it your way. You are of course a brother in Christ and family members always fight with each other it seems.
My associate pastor suggested rather than argue among ourselves about what we disagree with, it is better to focus on what we do agree on.
I forget this now and again.
See you on a different thread.
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 18:32:44 GMT -5
Medical loans might work, but you cannot trust the banks on this country and there is another big problem, We have to agree to blatantly disagree on this one, just like we have to disagree on the use of your friend Jed';s use of the word Queers in sermons. That aside, I am hoping you and yours are well and Lord Jesus sends the right people who need to hear the message as you preach it and will be influenced by it your way. You are of course a brother in Christ and family members always fight with each other it seems. My associate pastor suggested rather than argue among ourselves about what we disagree with, it is better to focus on what we do agree on. I forget this now and again. See you on a different thread. Queer is a great word to use. I praise Brother Jed for showing me the light a few years ago. Queer is a good word because for one, queer means odd or strange, and homosexuals are indeed just that and two, it just fits them perfectly. I'm glad that you will not argue with us. I've been extremely happy since I accepted Christ as my savior. Please don't try to ruin my happiness. God Bless You!
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Post by fs on Feb 20, 2009 18:36:24 GMT -5
God bless you as only He knows how.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 20, 2009 18:52:03 GMT -5
Even if banks do not give out medical loans, Hospitals do have payment plans. Of course, there are also charities and churches who help people.
Where do we draw the line as to what the government does for us and what we do for ourselves? If the government is going to force its citizens to share their money with others, why shouldn’t the government force its citizens to share their house with the homeless? The same injustice that would exist for the government to divide your own private land to be used by others also exists if the government divides your private wealth to be used by others.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 20, 2009 18:55:01 GMT -5
It is unfortunate when someone cannot afford health care. But it is unjust when someone is forced to pay for the bills of another person.
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 18:57:22 GMT -5
I ask Jesse because my Church had to turn away a non-believer who was asking for money for a liver transplant. My pastor said that the non-believer brought it themselves and that they should pay the price for their sins. I feel really awful though, even though they didn't see the light they deserved to live just as much as you or I. Every bone in my body is a peaceful one and seeing this kind of rejection hurts right down to my soul. I may need to talk to my pastor and find out what he was thinking then.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 20, 2009 18:59:44 GMT -5
Socialism causes people to stray further ans further from God.
1] Causes people to depend on government and less trust in God. 2] Causes people to be more lazy 3] Causes people to lose all hope of future independence 4] Causes people to become slaves
The first person to create a socialist nation was NIMROD.
We the people were to be in control of the Government, that is freedom. Not the Govenment controling the people.
I give much to those in need. I have housed people that were homeless. I have given vehicle away to people that needed vehicles. I have fed those in need of food. But in all of these, I have chosen to give according to my discreption by God's leading and not by the Governments control.
I do not feel I shoulf be a slave to those who refuse to work, those fornicators who sleep with man after man and have children out of wedlock, those drug addicts and drunkards who do not care about me, or God or the Holy Things of God. These are people who do not pay taxes and would not give a penny to save me from dying on the side of a road.
Am I hateful? No, if any of these persons would repent and believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour, then I would give cheerfully to provide for them to draw closer to God.
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Post by fs on Feb 20, 2009 19:02:54 GMT -5
Who is Nimrod?
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 20, 2009 19:13:04 GMT -5
Please Study Genesis chapters 9 and 10
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 20, 2009 19:30:25 GMT -5
Please Study Genesis chapters 9 and 10 What policies or ideas did Nimrod establish that are similar to the U.N. and Obama? Nimrod was a very significant man in ancient times, the grandson of Ham and great-grandson of Noah. Nimrod started his kingdom at Babylon. He arrogantly violated an expressed commandment of God for mankind after the flood to disperse throughout the earth ("Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it," Gen. 1:28) and consolidated his lust for one-world globalism and centralized power at his stronghold of "the plains of Shinar" in present-day Iraq.
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Post by fs on Feb 20, 2009 20:37:54 GMT -5
Oh yeah, Jack Chick dealt with Nimrod in a couple of tracts and books. He was the sicko who married his own mother also.
Still, sorry guys but I am strongly in favor of national health care and re-regulations of many corporations.
I really do not think Obama, love him or hate him stacks up as a second Nimrod.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 20, 2009 20:42:42 GMT -5
Oh yeah, Jack Chick dealt with Nimrod in a couple of tracts and books. He was the sicko who married his own mother also. Still, sorry guys but I am strongly in favor of national health care and re-regulations of many corporations. I really do not think Obama, love him or hate him stacks up as a second Nimrod. OH NO FS; your calling people names ! Caught you!
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 20, 2009 21:10:00 GMT -5
The National health care is just a front of Socialism that is to reel in people to accept it slowly. This is exactly what Hitler did in the beginning. People were drawn to the great promises that Hitler made concerning a better society. But behind his agenda was an evil mastermind to take over and control the whole world. A little leven levens the whole lump. Esau sold his birthright for a meal; many Americans will sell their freedom for healthcare. What will be next ? Will it be the schooling of our children? Will we be forced to send our children to school and learn blasphemous teachings such as evolution ? Would then they force themselves into our religious rights? Maybe forcing us to sign a wavor that we accept all religions as truth? Or maybe make us accept homosexuality as being the norm in a wicked world? Maybe forcing us to pay for abortions with our tax monies? Are you willing to contribute to the murder of innocent children?
Are you willing to sell out your God Given Birthright for Health Care ?
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 22:27:02 GMT -5
I'm not willing to give up any of my God-given rights to gain something like health care. Wasn't it Ben Franklin who says that those who give up freedom for security deserve neither? I think that fits quite well in this area. Especially since the USA was founded upon Christian principles. It is sad to see so many deviate from our founders like this.
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 22:29:33 GMT -5
The government won't stop anywhere until they have us completely in their clutches. Nothing is sacred to them any more. Would it be worth it to leave the US to its death or to go out and sacrifice ourselves for our homeland? I for one will stay and fight until those who would oppress us are no longer standing. God gave us this land and in God's name we will take it back.
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Post by Melmoth on Feb 20, 2009 22:42:31 GMT -5
Getting a bit paranoid, Rhema. You're almost at the point where I begin to wonder if you wear tinfoil hats. Obama-Hitler comparisons, and socialist plots... Words fail me at how ridiculous you sound.
Words do not fail me, however, at your last post. Disjointed, but my reply is a bit better than the wall of text it could be. Anyway...
People were drawn to Hitler because he offered a future. He ended the depression, doing some good by polarizing the world and getting it back to work. His other policies... Not so good.
Healthcare. We want it, and thus it's coming. If it turns into a complete mess you have a shot at killing it in four years.
Evolution is already being taught in public schools. I guess you can get around it by homeschooling or private schooling, but why? The kids are going to learn about it eventually, if only because you'd have to live under a rock to not hear about it. Might as well get both sides' arguments. Or shouldn't they?
Your religious rights are safe, if limited. The First Amendment isn't going to disappear any time soon.
What do you mean by 'accept homosexuality as being the norm'? Expand on this, I'm in need of a laugh.
State funded abortions are already a reality in some states. My information is a bit old, but I doubt the situation has changed too much. Why should you care anyway? Pacifists pay taxes that go to pay for war, are you so different and special?
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Post by versesunjust on Feb 20, 2009 23:15:24 GMT -5
Everyone wants socialized health care? Not me. And I know quite a number of others who are disgusted by the mere idea. I will gladly help kill it in four years when we can get a real American back in the White House. Obama is no American. We cannot even figure out if he's really an American or not. Apparently he was really born back in Kenya and then snuck back into the States to get a birth certificate. Yeah, some American he is.
Don't get me started on evolution. It's still a theory and not fact. Is it so hard to believe that our Lord was the one who created us out of his eternal love? Don't reject him or you too will end up facing his wrath when you leave this place. The biggest problem with these schools teaching evolution is that the other theories aren't even mentioned.
Our religious rights are not safe. The above fact that our voices are being forcefully shut out when it comes to teaching the creation of life is enough to show that this is only the beginning.
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Post by Melmoth on Feb 21, 2009 0:32:22 GMT -5
Majority rule. He got voted in, and his ideas went with him.
Judge a man by his deeds. I do not know what is really true regarding his birth, and I am content to let history decide where he was born.
Yep. I did not see the formation of the world, the rise of man, and a great many things. I don't know beyond all shadow of a doubt exactly how things worked out, and honestly, I don't care. Evolution sounds plausible enough, and if a new theory appears with more proof, I'll switch views. Either way, it's far enough in the past that it does not matter to me.
Here's the deal. If a heavenly being will descend from the sky and come have lunch with me at Burger King, you know, have a nice chat about the state of the universe, I will convert on the spot. Doesn't have to be God, or even Jesus, I'm satisfied with an Angel. My problem lies in the fact that I have quite a few gods to sort through for truth. I have a whole pantheon of Greek, Norse, Hindu, Egyptian, and African gods that refuse to show themselves and prove their existence. The Buddha won't drop by for dinner, I'm uncertain of where to find a Muslim priest, and I am utterly clueless about the non-Buddhist eastern religions. And there's a bunch I've forgotten.
My point being, there are quite a few religions claiming to be the one true religion. It would really suck following Jesus and then realizing upon death that Osiris was the correct choice.
I've rambled, but here's another thought. Why are divine creation and evolution incompatible?
But this is not so much of a problem. Government cannot concede to one group and then deny another the same right. Every religion has its creation story, and I'd take a wild guess that you don't want those taught either. Separation of church and state makes things far easier, in my opinion.
But you can teach creation all you want. You just can't teach it in school. Again, church and state for the win.
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 21, 2009 1:20:38 GMT -5
Why do you care where I go? For all I know there isn't a hell. Please prove that such a place exists - without the Bible please (as that would be a logical fallacy called circular logic). Your logic is flawed. You saying that hell isn't real based on your disbelief in the Bible doesn't make it true any more than me saying that India doesn't exist because I don't believe it exists. I've never seen it therefore India is non-existent. Isn't that silly? So is your logic. "the following doesn't exist because I don't believe in the resources that prove it's existence:" - your brain - your iq - your car - your parents - etc, etc, etc Totally ridiculous argument, isn't it?
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Post by Melmoth on Feb 21, 2009 1:48:01 GMT -5
You are arguing with a banned account.
In his stead, I must say that those things you have listed can be proven. You can go to India if you so wish, see his car, parents, and brain if she allows it. Brain would be a bit difficult as you'd have to crack the skull open, but the others can be physically proven. IQ, however, is an idea, and somewhat less solid and harder to prove, if possible.
Hell is something you are unable to prove. You cannot see it, unless you are dead. And then it's too late. If it exists.
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Post by biblegeek on Feb 21, 2009 1:50:34 GMT -5
Still waiting on some evidence. *YAWN* You guys are horrible at this. Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. History proves he came and died on the cross for you. No other book in the world has EVER had more copies in print. No other book in the world has EVER had more ancient copies than the Bible: 24,000+. The next closest in all of antiquity is Homer's Iliad, of which we have 643 ancient copies. Here's the point, sinner. You want physical proof of his existence, right? Show me physical proof of your brain's existence first, and I'll show you proof of God's existence. If we show you proof, will you repent from your sins? NO because you hate God and love yourself more. The proof is all around you. Let's try to use logic, shall we? If we believe in a God that you say doesn't exist and when we die, we simply soil our pants and cease to exist (according to you)... then we have all believed in something that has made our world a better place - not murdering, not lying, not stealing, not coveting, etc, etc, etc. BUT.... and it's a BIG but.... if YOU don't repent and make Jesus your Lord and what we have been saying is 100% true and real, and when you die, you are in BIG TROUBLE. Hell isn't a day or a week in jail. It's FOREVER in a lake of fire. And, I have 100% absolute evidence that the chances of you dying is 100%. 10 out of 10 people die. The burden is on YOU to provide evidence to yourself. Prove to yourself that there is no God. Prove to yourself that this vast, complex universe that we live in is all a result of an accident.... mere chance. Every intelligent design has a designer. I have a baseball sitting here on my desk that says "#1 Dad" on it. Would you say that someone had to of designed it? Of course. I have a basketball that says "Spalding" on it... did that happen by itself or did it have a designer? Now, we have an earth that has an intelligent design... 1 fraction closer to the sun and we all bake. 1 fraction further and we all freeze. If it spins faster we all fly off. If it spins slower we all can't walk. Without the earth's atmosphere protecting us from 1000's of asteroids, we would have been dead long ago. CAN YOU TELL ME WITH A STRAIGHT FACE THAT ALL OF THIS INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS SIMPLY AN ACCIDENT? Even Darwin owned up to intelligent design. We don't have to prove anything to you. If you really want to know the truth, you need to seek God for yourself and quit being a liberal democrat... quit placing the blame on everyone else and be accountable for your ignorance.
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Post by Melmoth on Feb 21, 2009 3:16:45 GMT -5
Nice job ignoring my post, geek. Might want to read it now.
As I said above, you are arguing with a banned account. While the person can come back if they wish it, you look rather foolish in the meantime and set yourself up for others to snipe at you. I have done just that below, fair warning. Why am I responding to a post aimed at her? Several reasons. First off, you took the time to write all that, you deserve a response. Never mind that your post is akin to beating a defenseless man. Second, you are so incredibly annoying and arrogant that I can't help it.
History is in doubt here. Sales, have nothing to do with it. Neither do copies of the book that are really old. (how old are these, by the way?) They are as relevant as me quoting Elvis's record sales and number of movies in an attempt to prove he is the son of god. A lot of people believing in something can be wrong. There are a bunch of believers in other religions, and you think they're all wrong, so the reverse can be applied here.
Addressed in the post above. Lying is frowned upon in the bible, yes? You know good and well you're not going to follow through, because you are certain she won't.
...
I can't think of a way to express my extreme annoyance at your actions and intentions without resorting to speech I would rather not make in polite company. You do not make a contract if you have no intention on fulfilling it, no matter how remote the possibility of you needing to. Know that you have none of my respect for this.
You have people that will repent immediately, I'm one, but the arrogance in this common easily thrown around excuse makes me wonder why you are worth saving. I know none who could deny a face to face meeting with God.
You already broke the lying part, which, funnily enough, you're ranking with murder. Let me get this... Can you not do good without believing in Jesus? If I do not murder, lie, steal, covet, etc, etc, etc...?
I have issues with the idea of a just being giving immortal punishments for mortal transgressions, but let's not get to that yet. True, it's a big deal if you're right. But, then again, it's also a big deal if the Catholics or Muslims or whatever are right. With no solid proof of any of the gods being real, you can't really make a good decision. A spiritual lottery, if you will.
You cannot prove a negative. I am Abraham Lincoln reincarnated. Prove otherwise. As to the universe being chance, or just simply being without help, why not? I see the universe, I do not see God. I know the universe exists, earth, my home, my friends. God I have not seen.
That is assuming this is all a design. Something based, not on fact, but your inability to believe that this is all there is. And the bible, of course. It says there's more, promises you awesomeness later, and because you want that and believe it is secure, you have no reason to question. Questioning things is good, it leads to discovery.
Cool thing with that is, you can go find the guy who made the baseball and basketball, if they're still alive. You also may remember a time before they existed, so you know that it was created, instead of always being there. Earth, on the other hand, has existed far longer than any of us have lived. You cannot go find god and ask why he made the oceans salty. (if you can, I'd appreciate his address, as I have several questions for him.) The fact that you cannot find him leads me at least to question if he exists or is just a creation of men.
Really big fractions, but I get the idea.
Gravity does not work that way. You are thinking centrifugal force, and even that does not work that way. Paying attention in science class makes you look smarter in arguments (or at least less ignorant).
You're thinking meteors. They're mostly small. Like, small enough to not be much danger for anything. Just look at the moon, It's still in one piece. The big planet killing meteors? Even with the atmosphere we're dead when one of those shows up. Thankfully they're rare enough and space is really big so it's easy for one to miss. The meteor menace is a joke.
I CAN. EVERYTHING YOU SEE? IT JUST IS. AND IT IS UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CONVINCE ME THAT IT IS NOT JUST AS I SEE IT, THEN PLEASE PRAY FOR GOD TO COME WITH ME TO BURGER KING. I HAVE SOME GIFT CARDS, YOU SEE, AND AM TOTALLY WILLING TO PAY FOR HIS HEAVENLY LUNCH.
O.o
That I did not know. Back it up. Proof please.
And this is where I cannot speak for Burning. I'll speak for myself, though. You're in the business of saving souls? Then proof is your burden. You want people to believe, then the best way is to show them. It's hard to disbelieve the eyes.
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Post by fs on Feb 21, 2009 8:05:05 GMT -5
Jesse, you are right on Calvin but dead wrong on this thread. Capitalism is also abused and evil. You re listening to too many Limbaugh and O'; Reilly shows.
Stealing from people who work for it and giving it to those who don;t? Get real. The corporate executives, oil company big shots and others have not worked for their vast fortunes. They have made it via theft from consumers, price fixing and at the expense if the workers beneath them. It is the laborer working for next to nothing and not the corporate head who deserves the biggest pay.
The markets are NOT capable of policing themselves. Why do you think the price of everything shot up so much under Bush! He and his were corporate puppets! There is nothing wrong with redistribution of the wealth when it is taking back and gibing to the REAL workers, from the lazy, corrupt corporate heads who should have never had it to begin with.
You need to be rebuked. If you support the directional flow this country took in the past four years especially, you are off in the head. A brother in Christ,still mind you, but off in the head!
Get off this subject and back to sermons against Calvinism as there at least you do know what you are talking about.
WE need national health care or at least a great revamping of the existing system and we need re-regulations of corporate America.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Feb 21, 2009 10:04:40 GMT -5
Getting a bit paranoid, Rhema. You're almost at the point where I begin to wonder if you wear tinfoil hats. Obama-Hitler comparisons, and socialist plots... Words fail me at how ridiculous you sound. Words do not fail me, however, at your last post. Disjointed, but my reply is a bit better than the wall of text it could be. Anyway... People were drawn to Hitler because he offered a future. He ended the depression, doing some good by polarizing the world and getting it back to work. His other policies... Not so good. Healthcare. We want it, and thus it's coming. If it turns into a complete mess you have a shot at killing it in four years. Evolution is already being taught in public schools. I guess you can get around it by homeschooling or private schooling, but why? The kids are going to learn about it eventually, if only because you'd have to live under a rock to not hear about it. Might as well get both sides' arguments. Or shouldn't they? Your religious rights are safe, if limited. The First Amendment isn't going to disappear any time soon. What do you mean by 'accept homosexuality as being the norm'? Expand on this, I'm in need of a laugh. State funded abortions are already a reality in some states. My information is a bit old, but I doubt the situation has changed too much. Why should you care anyway? Pacifists pay taxes that go to pay for war, are you so different and special? It amazes me how people can get excited about this National Health Care overlooking the big picture and what history has proven through Hitler and other socialist nations. You may want to become slaves to big government, but soldiers of the past have faught and died for the freedom of this Nation so we may not bow down to socialism.
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