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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 9, 2009 23:16:50 GMT -5
“It is vain for us to try to do the work which can only be done by sovereign grace; it is equally vain for us to implore God to do what has been commanded by sovereign authority.” Tozer
“Christ’s work on Calvary made atonement for every man, but it did not save any man.” Tozer
“Universal atonement makes salvation universally available, but it does not make it universally effective toward the individual.” Tozer
“If atonement was made for all men, why are not all saved? The answer is that before redemption becomes effective toward the individual man there is an act which that man must do. That act is not one of merit, but of condition.” Tozer
“God cannot do our repenting for us. In our efforts to magnify grace we have so preached the truth as to convey the impression that repentance is a work of God. This is a grave mistake, and one which is taking a frightful toll among Christians everywhere. God has commanded all men to repent. It is a work which only they can do. It is morally impossible for one person to repent for another. Even Christ could not do this. He could die for us, but He cannot do our repenting for us.” Tozer
“we must of our own free will repent toward God and believe in Jesus Christ. This the Bible plainly teaches; this experience abundantly supports. Repentance involves moral reformation. The wrong practices are on man’s part, and only man can correct them. Lying, for instance, is an act of man and one for which he must accept full responsibility. When he repents he will quit lying. God will not quit for him; he will quit for himself.” Tozer
So they are tossed helplessly between the first Adam and the last Adam. One did their sinning for them and the other has done everything else. Thus the nerve of their moral life is cut and they sink back in despair, afraid to move lest they be guilty of sinful self-effort.” Tozer
“The remedy is to see clearly that men are not lost because of what someone did thousands of years ago; they are lost because they sin individually and in person. We will never be judged for Adam’s sin, but for our own. For our own sins we are and must remain fully responsible” Tozer
“The day when it is once more understood that God will not be responsible for our sin and unbelief will be a glad one for the Church of Christ. The realization that we are personally responsible for our individual sins may be a shock to our hearts, but it will clear the air and remove the uncertainty. Returning sinners waste their time begging God to perform the very acts He has sternly commanded them to do.” Tozer
“Any interpretation of free grace which relieves the sinner of responsibility to repent is not of God nor in accordance with revealed truth.” Tozer
"Fundamental Christianity in our times is deeply influenced by that ancient enemy of righteousness, Antinomianism. The creed of the Antinomian is easily stated: We are saved by faith alone; works have no place in salvation; conduct is works, and is therefore of no importance. What we do cannot matter as long as we believe rightly. The divorce between creed and conduct is absolute and final. The question of sin is settled by the Cross; conduct is outside the circle of faith and cannot come between the believer and God. Such in brief, is the teaching of the Antinomian. And so fully has it permeated the Fundamental element in modern Christianity that it is accepted by the religious masses as the very truth of God. Antinomianism is the doctrine of grace carried by uncorrected logic to the point of absurdity. It takes the teaching of justification by faith and twists it into deformity." A. W. Tozer
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 9, 2009 9:34:28 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 30, 2009 12:02:05 GMT -5
Sorry bro. I wont be making it to San Marcos until probably the fall of 2010. This year we won't be touring through Texas at all... Will you still be in school then?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 30, 2009 12:01:24 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2009 2:08:04 GMT -5
Pelagius taught that to live a holy life we need the grace of God, specifically:
1. The grace of creation, when God gave us a free will 2. The grace of revelation: the law, a conscience, the Holy Spirit 3. The grace of redemption: forgiveness through the atonement of Christ
Those who say that Pelagius didn't teach grace simply do not know what Pelagius taught.
Pelagius did not teach that we are saved by following the example of Christ. Pelagius taught that we are justified "by faith alone"according to his commentary on Romans. But Jesus Christ is our example to follow.
And the truths of Pelagianism have not died. The truths of Pelagianism existed before Pelagius and have survived today. Anyone who teaches free will is a Pelagian. Anyone who denies original sin and says sin is a free will choice is a Pelagian. Anyone who says perfection is attainable is a Pelagian. These were the Pelagian "heresies".
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 27, 2009 12:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 26, 2009 23:55:25 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 26, 2009 17:28:57 GMT -5
Yes, and that would lead to real conviction, and that is just terribe! Men might start thinking that they are actually criminals who deserve punishment, instead of victims with an excuse, and then start thinking that they really need God's grace and mercy!
Pelagianism teaches that mankind is so evil, that they do not need to inherit sin to be evil, they choose to be of their own free will.
Imagine what would happen if people took full responsibility for their actions? But as long as original sin replaces free will, that terrible consequence will not happen.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 25, 2009 22:41:50 GMT -5
For Nineveh to be saved, they needed to turn from their sins. Yet, they were not circumcised according to the law of Moses. That is because they were not under the law of Moses. They were under the law which God had given them, the moral law.
The Gentiles are under the moral law, but they are not under all of the laws of Judeaism. Gentiles are not under obligation to the Jewish Torah.
"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law as under the law, that i might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law." 1 Cor. 9:20-21
The Gentiles are without the law of Moses, they are without the Torah. But they are not without law to God nor are they without the law to Christ. What God has spoke to all nations, and what God has spoken through Christ, is for all people. But what God spoke to Moses was only for the Jews.
Romans 2:14-15 also teaches that the Gentiles are without law (without the Torah) but they are not without the moral law (they have a conscience).
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" Galatians 2:14-15
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 24, 2009 15:01:13 GMT -5
"willingly are ignorant" 2 Peter 3:5
This is what I said in my booklet on free will and conscience:
If a man sins a sin of ignorance (Lev. 4:13), doing that which “ought not to be done” (Lev. 4:2), “he shall be guilty” only “when he knoweth of it” (Lev. 5:3), and is held responsible only when it is “known” (Lev. 4:14). There is also the sin of being willingly ignorant (2 Pet. 3:5). One is willingly ignorant when knowledge is available and attainable, within the reach of an individual, yet that person willingly refuses to attain it, refusing to reach out for it. Such knowledge is within the realm of attainability (attainable because of that person’s ability), yet it is refused and ignored. Such a sin of ignorance is truly the sin of ignoring the attainable truth. This was, no doubt, connected to the case of the Israelite in Leviticus who could sin a sin of ignorance when knowledge and revelation was made available by God to all of Israel.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 23, 2009 17:09:46 GMT -5
1. The Israelites were under obligation to a vast amount of laws, many of which are not written on our conscience, and therefore the letter of the law could be violated in ignorance. I doubt if many of them had memorized ALL of the laws. Suppose they memorized all of them, except for one, they could then transgress that law in ignorance. It is possible that they could do something which they didn't know was forbidden by the law.
2. Because of the nature of those laws, they could be violated in ignorance. For example the law says do not eat certain foods, but suppose you eat a stew that has a forbidden food mixed in it and you were not aware. This would be a "sin" or transgression done in ignorance. It is possible that they could touch something unclean without knowing it, or eat something that was forbidden without knowing it. This is a transgression of the law, but there is no fault with their heart because it was not deliberate.
3. Leviticus 5:3 says that "when he knoweth of it, THEN he shall be guilty". Leviticus 4:14 says that they are only obligated to make an atonement "when the sin... is known..."
4. The Israelites could transgress their laws without knowing it. But how could we, who are only subject to the moral law, violate it in ignorance? God has written in his law on our hearts. How could ANY of the Ten Commandments be broken by accident or mistake? You can't accidentally committ adultery or mistakenly murder. That is why the New Testament always describes sin as an intentional choice. Jesus said if we were blind we would have no sin and James says that sin is when we know to do right and we do not do it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 23, 2009 15:08:35 GMT -5
I would say that God's law condemms all sin, yet God's law says nothing about a persons body or nature. Therefore our body or nature cannot be sin. Sin is violation of God's law and God's law tells us what type of choices to make, not what type of body to be born with or what type of nature to inherit.
Jesus was made a sin offering for us. To be "made sin" means to be made a sin-offering. Jesus Christ was not made a sinner, neither was his nature or body turned into sinfulness. Jesus offered himself without spot or blemish unto God. If Jesus became sinful, His atonement could not be acceptable to God. Jesus needed to be innocent and perfect when He was on the cross, or else his death could not atone for our sins.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 21, 2009 15:12:54 GMT -5
Sin is a matter of the intention.
I was joking. To call it sin is to be sort of legalistic.
Besides, "we all sin every day in word, thought, and deed". lol
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 21, 2009 2:00:37 GMT -5
If Charles Finney ever was the Castro of Geneva and he burned heretics at the stake, we would never hear the end of it from Calvinists.
Calvinists will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. They nit pick at Finney and yet overlook major character flaws in Calvin.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 21, 2009 0:32:00 GMT -5
Here is a logical syllogism:
- Those without moral knowledge are without sin (Jn. 9:41; Jas 4:17) - Babies are without moral knowledge (Deut. 1:39; Isa. 7:15-16) - Therefore babies have no sin.
Jesus said that if you are blind, you would have no sin. Babies are morally blind because their conscience is not yet developed. Therefore, according to Jesus, babies have no sin.
Consider another one:
- Sin is the choice to disobey the moral law (1 Jn. 3:4). - Infants haven't made any choices yet (Rom. 9:11). - Therefore infants have no sin.
All this logic backs up what the Bible says, that men are sinners by choice: Gen. 6:12, Ex. 32:7, Deut. 9:12, Deut. 32:5, Jdg. 2:19, Hos. 9:9, Ps. 14:2-3, Isa. 53:6, Ecc. 7:29, Rom. 3:23.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 21, 2009 0:25:56 GMT -5
Yes, it was a funny joke about something that was not very funny.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 20, 2009 14:04:11 GMT -5
To quote Judge Parker from Wild West times.
"The men I hanged never killed again. There were others I didn't hang...that did!"
The problem with the capital punishment system in America is that it is not quick and public. The criminal sits on death row for 20 years and is executed indoors at midnight. That defeats the whole purpose. Capital punishment should be quick and public to be truly effective.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 20, 2009 13:32:13 GMT -5
I think it is important for us to have a proper understanding of the purpose of laws and the purpose of penalties. Studying the moral government of God has helped me to understand this. God sends sinners to hell for all of eternity. Therefore the purpose of punishment must not be to reform the criminal. It must be to maintain the law, to discourage sin, to declare the value of the precept, to protect the community, etc.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 20, 2009 13:08:13 GMT -5
I uploaded to YouTube a video that says God supports Capital Punishment. This is that video:
Laws are for the good of the community. Punishments uphold the law. If the law is violated, disobedience would be encouraged in the community unless the disobedient are punished. Even Jesus Christ suffered capital punishment on the cross, in order to maintain and support the law of God which we violated! The law of God was so important that the blood of Christ had to be shed when it was violated! Likewise, human life is so valuable, "thou shalt not murder" is so valuable, that the blood of the criminal needs to be shed when it is violated. Punishment must give an expression of the value of the law, or else the law is not being properly vindicated and the object that the law seeks to protect is not being properly valued.
Someone said that we should love our enemies and therefore we should not want capital punishment. I answered, "I wouldn't want my enemies to live in a community where someone could murder them without facing capital punishment. Their life is not being fully protected or valued if someone could take their life without losing their own. Therefore because I love my enemies, I want capital punishment in our society."
He also objected to capital punishment because it does not reform the criminal and, he argued, the purpose of punishment is to reform the criminal. He went on to say that if we do not punish criminals in order to reform them, than our motive for punishing them must simply be revenge. I answered, "The purpose of punishment is not to reform the criminal. The purpose of punishment is to discourage others from doing likewise. The punishment must also declare the value of the law that was violated. Life is very valuable and therefore laws protecting life are valuable. Therefore when someone murderers another person, the only adequate expression of the value of the law they violated is to take their own life. Anything less is being unjust to the law, the community, and the victim. Punishments almost never reform the criminal. That is not their purpose. The purpose of penalties is to express the value of the law, to prevent crime by discouraging others, to protect the innocent. The purpose of penalties is not to reform the criminal. The penalty of the law is not supposed to be executed for the sake of personal revenge, nor to gratify the feelings of the victims or the relatives of the victim. The penalty of the law is supposed to be executed to protect the community by upholding the law. Crimes are not prosecuted as personal revenge, they are prosecuted for the sake of a community. We can forgive criminals, but the law cannot."
He also objected to capital punishment, calling it murder which is forbidden by the law of God. I answered, "Murder is the shedding of innocent blood. Some people deserve to die and for the government to take their life, it is not murder. Right after God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses He commanded Joshua to take the life, or to kill, entire communities. The reason God said was because they were wicked people. It was not murder for Joshua to take their life because they deserved to die. Murder is the shedding of innocent blood, like abortion."
Human life is not being valued when it can be taken by a person without facing capital punishment. The law which forbids murder is not being properly upheld if a person can commit murder without facing capital punishment. Murder is not being properly discouraged if it can be committed without capital punishment as the consequence. A community is not being properly protected or valued if murder can be committed without the execution of capital punishment. As long as murders are committed, it is right and just for the government to execute capital punishment. The government is obligated to do so. To do any less would be wrong and unjust.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 19, 2009 20:24:16 GMT -5
A person must turn from their sin to be saved. But if it is a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah, than a Gentile does need to obey the Torah to be saved! But this is contrary to Acts, Romans, and Galatians! It is not a sin for a Gentile to violate the Torah because a Gentile is not under obligation to the Torah. If eating pork was a sin, or if wearing clothing made of two different materials were a sin, when I was converted under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, why didn't he convict me of these things? He convicted me of all my other sins! Why wouldn't he convict me of violating these commands in the Torah?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 19, 2009 20:23:12 GMT -5
Just kidding. That was John Calvin.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2009 4:14:41 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2009 2:00:19 GMT -5
These are points I have put together for a Gospel tract:
GOD HAS GIVEN A MORAL LAW FOR OUR WELL-BEING:
“… what doth the Lord thy God require of thee… To keep the commandments of the Lord and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?” Deuteronomy 10:12-13
GOD HAS MADE HIS LAW KNOWN TO ALL PEOPLE:
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their heats, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” Romans 2:14-15
SIN IS THE CHOICE TO DISOBEY GOD’S KNOWN LAW:
“Jesus said unto them, if ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, we see, therefore your sin remaineth.” John 9:41
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17
GOD HAS GIVEN US THE POWER OF CHOICE:
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.” Deuteronomy 30:19
“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” Joshua 24:15 ALL MEN HAVE CHOSEN TO BE SINNERS:
“And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” Genesis 6:12
“God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.” Ecclesiastes 7:29
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way…” Isaiah 53:6
EACH PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PERSONAL CHOICES:
“Yet say ye, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father?.. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son...” Ezekiel 18:19-20
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” 2 Corinthians 5:10
GOD MAINTAINS AND ENFORCES HIS LAW BY PUNISHING SINNERS:
“Behold I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: a blessing if ye obey the commandments… And a curse if ye will not obey the commandments…” Deut. 11:26-28
“He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness…” Acts 17:31
THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR SINS IS ETERNAL HELL:
“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord…” 2 Thes. 1:9
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:15
THE ATONEMENT SUBSTITUTES OUR PUNISHMENT:
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities” Isa. 53:5
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust…” 1 Pet. 3:18
OUR PUNISHMENT CAN BE REMITTED SINCE ATONEMENT HAS BEEN MADE:
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matt. 26:28
“… without shedding of blood is no remission.” Heb. 9:22
GOD STILL HAS WRATH FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN THEIR SINS:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness” Rom. 1:18
“But after they hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath”. Rom. 2:5
FORGIVENESS IS WHEN GOD TURNS AWAY FROM HIS WRATH:
“Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sins. Selah. Thou hast taken away all thy wrath: thou hast turned thyself from the fierceness of thine anger.” Psalms 85:2-3
IF WE TURN FROM OUR SINS GOD WILL TURN FROM HIS WRATH:
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” Proverbs 28:13
“Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee” Acts 8:22
“Repent, ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…” Acts 3:19
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 18, 2009 1:54:04 GMT -5
These are points I have put together for a Gospel tract:
GOD HAS GIVEN A MORAL LAW FOR OUR WELL-BEING:
“… what doth the Lord thy God require of thee… To keep the commandments of the Lord and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?” Deuteronomy 10:12-13
GOD HAS MADE HIS LAW KNOWN TO ALL PEOPLE:
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their heats, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another” Romans 2:14-15
SIN IS THE CHOICE TO DISOBEY GOD’S KNOWN LAW:
“Jesus said unto them, if ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, we see, therefore your sin remaineth.” John 9:41
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17
GOD HAS GIVEN US THE POWER OF CHOICE:
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.” Deuteronomy 30:19
“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” Joshua 24:15 ALL MEN HAVE CHOSEN TO BE SINNERS:
“And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” Genesis 6:12
“God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.” Ecclesiastes 7:29
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way…” Isaiah 53:6
EACH PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PERSONAL CHOICES:
“Yet say ye, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father?.. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son...” Ezekiel 18:19-20
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” 2 Corinthians 5:10
GOD MAINTAINS AND ENFORCES HIS LAW BY PUNISHING SINNERS:
“Behold I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: a blessing if ye obey the commandments… And a curse if ye will not obey the commandments…” Deut. 11:26-28
“He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness…” Acts 17:31
THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR SINS IS ETERNAL HELL:
“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord…” 2 Thes. 1:9
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:15
THE ATONEMENT SUBSTITUTES OUR PUNISHMENT:
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities” Isa. 53:5
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust…” 1 Pet. 3:18
OUR PUNISHMENT CAN BE REMITTED SINCE ATONEMENT HAS BEEN MADE:
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matt. 26:28
“… without shedding of blood is no remission.” Heb. 9:22
GOD STILL HAS WRATH FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN THEIR SINS:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness” Rom. 1:18
“But after they hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath”. Rom. 2:5
FORGIVENESS IS WHEN GOD TURNS AWAY FROM HIS WRATH:
“Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sins. Selah. Thou hast taken away all thy wrath: thou hast turned thyself from the fierceness of thine anger.” Psalms 85:2-3
IF WE TURN FROM OUR SINS GOD WILL TURN FROM HIS WRATH:
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” Proverbs 28:13
“Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee” Acts 8:22
“Repent, ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…” Acts 3:19
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2009 23:59:07 GMT -5
1. It could not have been the wrath of God that was satisfied because God still has wrath after the atonement.
2. By substituting the eternal punishment of sinners with the suffering and death of Christ, the purpose of penalty is satisfied. The atonement is a replacement or alternative for hell fire. The purpose for penalty, under the government of God, is satisfied by the atonement.
3. What purpose does a government have for penalty? The purpose of penalty is to manifest to all of the subjects the Rulers regard for His law, to support the precept of the law, to maintain the authority and influence of the law, to prevent or discourage the spread of rebellion. By substituting our penalty with Christ's atonement, all these purposes are accomplished and therefore the purpose of the penalty is satisfied. The atonement of Christ accomplishes what the penalty executed upon sinners would have accomplished.
4. If the purpose of the penalty is satisfied, the penalty itself can be remitted. Forgiveness is the remission of the penalty. That is why the atonement makes the forgiveness of sins possible, because the atonement satisfied the purpose of penalty and therefore the penalty can be withheld or remitted by grace and mercy.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2009 23:51:37 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 17, 2009 22:53:46 GMT -5
If the atonement automatically and unconditionally saved, then the entire world would have been saved for the past 2,000 years.
The atonement makes it possible for God to pardon or forgive those who repent and believe. The atonement opens the way for forgiveness, it makes it available. But until conversion when a person repents and believes, they are not forgiven.
The problem is that many think that the atonement "satisfied God's wrath" and therefore those whom Jesus died for are no longer under God's wrath neither can they ever come under God's wrath again. But God still has wrath after the atonement. God struck King Herod in Acts. Romans says God has wrath against all ungodliness. And Revelation shows God's bowls of wrath full. The atonement did not satisfy God's wrath, but through the atonement God is able to TURN FROM His wrath when sinners repent. Forgiveness is when God turns away from His wrath, when He sets aside His wrath.
If Jesus "satisfied God's wrath" then we have been saved from God's wrath for the past 2,000 years. But this is not the case. Before I was converted, I was under the wrath of God. And if I return to the broad road, I return to the wrath of God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 22:11:13 GMT -5
I do also. I have been debating Eli on this because he believes that the idea of turning away from sin (repentance) is justification by works of the law. He thinks that the verses, where Paul is really talking about the Torah and circumcision, actually means repentance. Paul is not saying that we do not need to repent of our sins in order to be saved. Paul is saying that we do not need to become Jews, or obey the Torah, or be circumcised to be saved.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 14:45:13 GMT -5
We do not need to obey the Torah to be saved, but we must repent of our sins and live obediently:
“Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14).
"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19:17).
"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven" (Matt 7:21).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2009 14:30:03 GMT -5
WE MUST REPENT OF OUR SINS TO BE SAVED:
Consider how Paul's ministry was to call Gentiles to repentance (Acts 26:20) and Paul preached repentance (Acts 17:30-31) “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14). “Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity shall not be your ruin… Cast away from you all of your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die… For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves and live ye” (Ezekiel 18:30-32). “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon” (Isaiah 55:7). “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13).
BUT WE DO NOT NEED TO OBEY THE TORAH OR BE UNDER THE JEWISH LAWS TO BE SAVED:
When Paul was talked about the “law" he often was talking about the Jewish system, the Judaic law of Moses. Paul was not talking about the moral law. He was talking about all of the Torah. The moral law does not demand circumcision anywhere! The moral law only demands love! It is the Jewish Torah that demands circumcision. Therefor when Paul said that we are not justified by the law, he is saying that we are not justified by being circumcised. Paul emphasised predestination because His ministry was to the Gentiles, who were also "chosen" people. Likewise, Paul emphasised that we are not justified by the law (the Torah) because his ministry was to the Gentiles who were not under the law (under the Torah). We are not saved by obeying the Torah. We are saved by turning from our sins and turning to Christ. Gentiles do not need to become Jews to be saved. They do not need to be circumcised (obey the Torah or obey the law) to be saved: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren and said, except ye be CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES, YE CANNOT BE SAVED." Acts 15:1 "But neither Titus who was with me, being a GREEK, was compelled to be CIRCUMCISED. And that because of FALSE BRETHREN unawares brought in who came privily to spy out our LIBERTY which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE, to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour, that the truth of the Gospel might continue with you.... But contrariwise, when they saw that the GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMSISION was committed unto me..." Gal 2:3-7 "Therefore we conclude that aman is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. Is he the God of the JEWS only? is he not also of the GENTILES? Yes of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God which shall justify the CIRCUMCISION by faith, and the UNCIRCUMCISION through faith." Romans 3:28-30 "Behold I Paul say unto you that if ye be CIRCUMCISED, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is CIRCUMCISED, that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever you are that are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, ye are fallen from grace." Gal. 5:2-4 When Paul said that we did not have to obey the law to be saved, He was saying that we do not have to obey the Torah or become Jewish to be saved. We do not need to be circumcised according to the Jewish law to be saved. Paul was not saying that we do not need to repent of our sins (change our mind about breaking the moral law). Both Jew and Gentile are under the moral law. But only the Jews were under the Torah. "And unto the JEWS I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW as under the law, That I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are WITHOUT LAW as without law (being not without LAW TO GOD, but UNDER the LAW TO CHRIST) that I might gain them that are without law" (1 Co. 9:20-21) It is very clear that to be "under the law" is to be Jewish, it is to be under the Torah. But to be "without law" is to be without obligation to the Torah, but to still be under the law to God and under the law of Christ.
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